Wikipedia talk:WikiCup

WikiCup content needing review view •
Featured content List of Detroit Lions Pro Bowl selections (nom) Good topic candidates Featured pictures DYK GAN United States' Telegraph (start) KEXC (start) KCTV (start) KZJO (start) WNAC-TV (start) WOGX (start) WSJV (start) WUVN (start) Battle of Köse Dağ (start) PR William L. Breckinridge (rev) Sport in Vatican City (rev)

Recreated article — DYK scoring

I had Mercy Gilbert Medical Center undeleted to be rewritten and republished it. The article is 90% new material. Should it still qualify for an age bonus as a DYK based on the original date of publication, as the bot has handled it? Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that in order to recive a bonus for existing in a year it must have been around for 51+% of that year. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 03:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie, in my view it would indeed be eligible for an age bonus. The article had been deleted for only about three months, and it was undeleted rather than rewritten from scratch. If we remove these three months from consideration, it's been in mainspace for the same amount of time as an article that was created in December 2011 and never deleted.

As long as you expanded this page fivefold from the undeleted version, I think it qualifies for the age multiplier. (On the other hand, had the article been rewritten from scratch rather than being undeleted, it would not be eligible as an expanded article, only as a new article.) Epicgenius (talk) 03:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Epicgenius It is indeed not a 5x — it was 2327 characters RPS before and is 3140 characters now. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, okay - I see now. This is a real gray area, since you moved this to mainspace (which would make this a "new article" under most circumstances), but it has undeleted history dating back to 2011. My thinking is that if it qualified for DYK as a new article, then it should be scored as a new article, and thus it wouldn't receive the age bonus. I'm going to ping @Cwmhiraeth and @Frostly for their feedback, but I'm leaning toward treating this as a new article without any age-based bonuses. Epicgenius (talk) 03:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Epicgenius, thanks for the ping. I think that it would be best to treat this as a new article as well, given that the vast majority of the content is new material. Best, — Frostly (talk) 18:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Co nominator finished a review before I looked at it

So my and another user have been working our way though GAing every episode of Doctor Who series 14. The review for "Rogue" was posted for under 24 hours before my Co-nom two. Can I claim points for this? While my name was on the review and I am the second highest contributor I didn't work on the review specifically. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:20, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

@OlifanofmrTennant, yes, if you're the co-nominator, you may claim points if you were a significant contributor. This version of the talkpage indicates that you were a co-nominator, so this should be fine regardless if you worked on the review. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Seconding! — Frostly (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I concur. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

FPs

I'm a bit shocked that this year there's been 0 FPs. Like, I left the Wikicup a few years back because it really felt that doing at all well with FPs in the cup was something that made people very upset, but that the celebration of all content on Wikipedia now has 0 FPs? That feels weird. Ah, well, probably just means I was right to leave when I did. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 05:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I would try, but Sca is very intimidating... Panini! • 🥪 06:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden, I noticed that as well. I don't know if I've announced it on-wiki, but I should announce this publicly here: The first competitor to get an FP this year will get a special award at the end of this year's cup, in addition to the standard awards given for the highest-scoring competitors in a certain category. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, if someone wants to learn, poke me. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 16:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Raise featured list points?

I've discussed this in passing on Discord, but I think we should consider adjusting the points that are given for featured lists. I'm going to just spew some reasons and thoughts of mine on the matter;

• Featured lists cannot be spammed like good articles, DYKs, or ITNs because of the limit on the number of featured list candidates you can have at any given time (2)
• Far fewer lists are eligible for the interwiki bonus point multipliers
• Should featured articles really be more than 4x the value of featured lists?
• The most featured lists in any round this year was 6 (by myself), for a base point total of 270.
• The most featured articles in any round this year was 3 (by Generalissima), for a base point total of 600.
• I pulled some numbers, and this is only the second time that we've had more featured lists than articles.
• I feel as though we're simply not incentivizing the FL process for the cup, and I think the points could be increased to encourage a greater mix of content from participants.
• Featured list points were last increased from 40 to 45 prior the 2012 cup
• Featured article points were doubled from 100 to 200 prior to the 2014 cup
• The ratio was 2.5 lists being worth 1 FA from 2010–2011
• 2010–2011: 40 pts per FL vs 100 pts per FA (2.5 FL:1 FA)
• 2012–2014: 45 pts per FL vs 100 pts per FA (2.22 FL:1 FA)
• 2015–present: 45 pts per FL vs 200 pts per FA (4.44 FL:1 FA)

In short, I believe the value of featured lists is not properly reflected with the current scoring. As such, I am proposing that featured list points be raised to 65 (3.08 FL per FA), 70 (2.86 FL per FA), or 80 (2.5 FL per FA) starting with the 2025 WikiCup. I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the matter. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I think these are good ideas to consider. Actually, perhaps it might be time for another scoring reform; the last such reform took place in 2019, when competitors were much less likely to submit FLs for points. We haven't changed the scoring rules substantially since then. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I think it could be beneficial to examine. Though not exploited in the most recent iteration of the cup, there have been concerns voiced on Discord about the gameability of ITN items. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:23, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean, at the moment, an FP is only worth ⅔ a FL, and less than a GA. If FLs get raised by themselves, FPs get more marginal. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 18:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden: I disagree actually because of the fact there's no limits (to my knowledge) on the number of featured picture nominations you can have. My suggestion is meant to compensate for the limits in place for featured lists. I think there's just not a lot of cross over between FP nominators and WikiCup participants. Looking at the 2022 stats as an example, you had 12 pictures in round 1 (360 base pts), 13 pictures in round 2 (390 base points), and 14 pictures in round 3 (420 base points). These base point values just aren't possible with featured lists, so in a sense, it's actually moving things closer to being equal instead of further apart. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. As far as I can tell, I have more FPs than any other person on Wikipedia, and I still generally lost every year, even years I was literally spending entire days morning to night working on restoration.

On my best year ever, 2019 - and, remember, no-one is more productive than me - I had 99 FPs. That's 1970 points for the entire year. Last year, the winner had 2582 points in the final round alone. In 2021, the winner had over 5000, again, last round alone.

If I don't participate, no-one would be stupid enough to participate who works with FPs. Whic is very, very much against the original goal of the Wikicup, to celebrate all varieties of featured content. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 20:13, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

In terms of article writing (as someone who has written all three), I feel that FLs are only slightly more difficult to accomplish than GAs, but are significantly less difficult to write than FAs. The current ratio of FL:FA points seems about right to me; I would not support increasing over 55. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

There actually are some high-multiplier FLs in the current WikiCup submission round. I do not see a good argument to support a massive change to the points awarded to FLs. I agree with Airship that we need to compare to GAs as well. —Kusma (talk) 10:05, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Kusma: If we're comparing to GAs, then I'd like to point out that featured list candidates require 3 reviews, one of them being a source review, and a rough minimum of 20 days of time to be promoted. We've seen it plenty where certain types of GAs can be nominated quite quickly and reviewed the same day by only a single nominator. This doesn't make the work less valuable, but they can and have been "spammed", in that, someone can make a lot of nominations and they are reviewed and promoted the same day. This is not possible with FLs because of the number of reviewers and

As far as the high-multiplier FLs in the current WikiCup, a 3x multiplier still doesn't compete with FAs, and there are not a ton of high-multiplier FL opportunities out there aside from lists of cities. It was actually my goal to see how far I could get in the cup solely based on FLs and my pending elimination was the reason I actually started working on the Olympics lists. Besides the Olympics lists, the other opportunities are typically very large lists that would be a lot more work than GAs. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not part of the Wikicup much, but there should be some serious consideration to increasing the points for reviews, which is the area most lacking these days on Wikipedia. Maybe triple points for completing a review of a fellow Wikicup participant's article (which could also promote comradery within the competition)? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Is teaming with reviewers in the spirit of the cup?

In this cup as well as in the previous year's, our friend BeanieFan11 has submitted very large amounts of GAs. I don't want to diminish his work in this area; sports articles are an area where dedicated editors can make a huge difference in coverage, especially in as broad of an area as Beanie focuses on. However, I feel that the way these GANs have been conducted might run foul of the spirit of the cup here. Beanie GANs large numbers of short sport articles, which are picked up by one of two reviewers within a matter of hours and passed without much delay, generally just minor style tweaks. Talk:Kenneth Odumegwu/GA1 is a good example of a typical such article; it was submitted to GAN at 19:48 on September 27, taken at 20:06, reviewed at 20:24, and passed at 21:23. These pick up rapidly at the end of competitions such as the WP:DCWC or in the last two weeks of last year's cup, where 50 GAs were reviewed and passed. 3 and a half GAs a day, for those keeping track.

This sort of rapid post-and-review tactic is very effective at getting large numbers of GAs quickly, but I feel it greatly diminishes the efforts of other editors, especially ones who do not have access to close colleagues who will quickly review all of one's GANs. No editor in an area outside of something like sports could reasonably hope to match this pace. It unreasonable to expect someone to have buddy-reviewers to rapidly pass articles in order to compete at the highest level, and its unreasonable to punish editors who edit in areas where the GA bar is much higher and requires more thorough reviewing. This is ultimately just my thoughts on the matter, and so I would like to hear from the judges and all of you. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

This certainly looks odd. I have always believed that the social skills needed to actually find reviewers (or to convince the FAC coordinators to grant a second concurrent nomination) are part of what is celebrated and scored in the WikiCup, but having one or two friends who rapidly review several GAs per day (which have been pre-written up to a year ago, some of them were even withdrawn after the last WikiCup ended) does not sit quite right with me. —Kusma (talk) 16:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh woah, I did not realize that last part. That definitely seems like it's beyond the bounds of the competition. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• Sorry, I'm not trying to be disruptive – I've been putting in a large amount of my time recently to work on these articles (e.g. I've written from scratch about 15 quality articles in the past week, although not all qualify for the Cup). Do you think that there's any issues with the articles themselves? If it seems I'm having low-quality articles rapidly passed as GA then I'd agree that its inappropriate; but, if the only issue is that there's a few users who like to review my articles quickly, I'm not sure I quite see how it would be an issue? – given that many of these otherwise would take months to attract any interest; the three oldest pending GANs are each early Green Bay Packers articles (an area I've done significant work in) which have gone untouched since January. I feel that the ability to produce a good number of GAs is kind of balanced out by some articles receiving much higher amounts of points – e.g. the current leader has achieved three FAs which, when claimed, would equal 1,800 points alone. How would I be able to compete with that with no one to review the articles in a timely manner? As for the articles themselves, if you think any of them are sub-GA – I'm happy to address any issues with them. Pinging @Gonzo fan2007 and WikiOriginal-9: (reviewers) BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Is it true that some of these articles were pre-written/withdrawn from last year's Cup? — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 19:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Current leader only has two FAs actually @BeanieFan11. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey man im josh, Chagatai Khan just passed. Honestly, three FAs in one month needs some serious recognition. Amazing work AirshipJungleman29! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh woops, WikiCup stats page hadn't updated yet :P Hey man im josh (talk) 21:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• I am not the right person to decide whether this fits "the spirit", but if anything it's surprising this isn't more common given that the WikiCup system encourages it. This is as much a game of social engineering as it is actual content creation. We can't say "the winner is whoever coordinates their noms the best, as long as they don't coordinate them too much", but that's the system we're using. BeanieFan11's GA stats confirm that this is what's happening, whether BeanieFan11 sought the help or merely accepted it. WikiOriginal-9's stats confirm that they are almost entirely inactive at GAN besides reviewing Beaniefan11's noms near the end of competitions. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:41, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm just going to chime in here once, but please ping me if you need a response to something. I told BeanieFan11 that I would be happy to review any WP:PACKERS GAs he produces years ago, and that's what I do. I really don't care what the purpose is, if they want to contribute to a WikiProject I am passionate about, awesome! I have written 41 GAs myself, 22 FLs, and 2 FAs. I have reviewed about 100 GAs in my time. I am comfortable in my reviewing process, but am always happy to accept any constructive criticism.

BeanieFan11 focuses his efforts in a niche area: little-known professional sports bios. He is a good writer and most of his articles are under 800 words. To be frank, they aren't that difficult to review. The article example, Kenneth Odumegwu, has 20 inline sources, is a comprehensive article on the person and well-rounded. Is there anything wrong with it per GA criteria? That article is clearly better than 95% of the stuff on Wikipedia. I am not going to just make comments for the sake of making comments to inflate a review; I don't nitpick. I also often assist in editing the article. For example, I was the one that archived the references with IABot. I could've asked BeanieFan11 to do it to add one more part of the review, but its easy enough to do myself. In the past, I have even made small copyedits to articles instead of taking more time to comment on those edits. Lastly, I will note that in the creator-reviewer relationship, BeanieFan11 now already implements many of my past comments and I know what to look for.

The purpose of the Wikicup is not to win (The purpose of the Cup is to encourage content creation and improvement and make editing on Wikipedia more fun.) It's to encourage article creation and development. BeanieFan11 is highly motivated and produces great content within his niche area of interest. If you are unhappy with the impacts of his impressive article production and the fact that he has friends willing to do the thankless reviewing work, then I recommend a discussion on changing rules. Maybe there is a cap in points each area, to encourage diverse article creation? As BeanieFan11 noted, I have waited patiently since January for some of my GANs. Note, that offer is open to anyone who wants to promote WP:PACKERS content. Just let me know what you need reviewed, and I'll be there.

Lastly, I cannot grasp how BeanieFan11's success diminishes anyone's work. Everyone is to be commended for participating and improving the encyclopedia. We should be celebrating these individuals for their contributions, not worrying about someone being too successful at something that promotes Wikipedia's purpose. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this would be very different if there were evidence of misconduct of some sort. Right now it just seems to be a question of how it affects the rules of the game here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007, I've actually used you as an example regarding "if you want quick points, nominate what people are interested in and will review quickly". If someone wants to have their content reviewed quickly, nominate Packers articles. I've gone on further to say that that is not gaming the system, because you're one of the best reviewers I'm aware of and you don't take it easy out of friendliness. Hell, since we've worked more together I feel like you've actually been harder on me, as if you're like "you can do better josh", and it's benefited the articles I've worked on and Wikipedia as a whole (and I'm very grateful for it). I believe, from what I'm reading, the concern is saving all of the GAs until close to the end of the round/cup. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Hahaha I appreciate it! And yeah, us Joshes have to make sure all Joshes keep up our good reputation. Wouldn't want an on-Wiki Josh fight, right? Haha « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't care about the WikiCup. BeanieFan asked me if I could review the articles, so I reviewed them. That's literally all there is to it. I have no idea where Beanie is in the standings right now. I haven't looked. All of my reviews are thorough. It took me 3 hours this morning to review the 12 articles he asked me about yesterday. I also don't just "pass" everything. I thought one article Beanie asked me about last year was too short so I didn't review it. There were also about 10 or so reviews that Beanie didn't get to in time last year, so those ended up failing. He has come back and fixed some of the issues later on though.

Also, I am not entirely inactive from the GAN process. It is true I don't do too many reviews unless someone asks me to, but I have 17 GAs and 3 GANs right now that are awaiting reviews. I could have more than that too in my thousands of article creations and expansions, but, personally, I don't nominate articles if I think they are on the short side. I have stricter length requirements for my own articles than I do for reviews. With some of Beanie's article's about one-game NFL players, there isn't much else more to say. If there is good sourcing out there, Beanie usually includes it. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 20:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

That's an average of 15 minutes per review. I've reviewed about a hundred GANs of varying length, and I don't know if I ever managed to do one in under 15 minutes. But if the review is thorough then it's thorough. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

If anyone thinks any of Beanie's GAs aren't up to snuff, feel free to start a GAR. Like I said, I have no skin in this game.

I see where you are coming from though. If I was a competitor in the WikiCup, he would probably annoy me to with all of his GAs (lol). ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 21:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

To preface this, I received a private message yesterday expressing concern about how one competitor has been renominating GANs that they withdrew at the end of the previous year's cup. Without naming names, I should say that withdrawing GA/FA nominations based solely on the timing of WikiCup rounds is against the spirit of the cup, even if the articles do meet the GA/FA criteria.

I'll say that collusion between GAN/FAC nominators and reviewers may also be against the WikiCup's spirit, but it's not clear what the remedy for this is. Disqualifying nominations based on who the reviewer is can get tricky really quickly, especially if a particular topic area only attracts a small number of reviewers (which would inevitably lead to one editor reviewing multiple articles from the same nominator). Additionally, it really depends on the quality of the article; even if the same reviewer looked at multiple articles from one nominator, I'd be less inclined to mark the GANs/FACs as ineligible if these articles otherwise meet the good article or featured article criteria. On the other hand, if the nominations are truly disruptive, one option is to disqualify all of the affected articles, while another option is to remove the user from the competition. However, I'd prefer to do that only if other contestants agree that such user's continued presence in the WikiCup would be disruptive. Perhaps @Frostly or @Cwmhiraeth could chime in with their thoughts.

However, banking potential GANs/FACs for subsequent rounds is not by itself against the rules. In fact, this is actually somewhat encouraged by the fact that points reset at the end of each round. Additionally, editors are allowed to claim points for GANs/FACs even if they did most of the work for that article in a previous year. If there is a desire to change this (for example, if contestants wish to implement a rule saying "work on these articles must be done this year"), we can certainly discuss that. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Epicgenius, appreciate your comments and insights. That said, collusion seems to be a strong word (dictionary definition is secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others). All coordination has been done on-Wiki, and there hasn't been any attempt to hide anything. The commentary between BeanieFan11 and I is right there on our talk pages and archives. They even gave me a barnstar for being willing to review their articles. Are you implying that is what is happening here? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007, thanks for the response. With regard to the second paragraph of my comment, I wasn't commenting on Beanie's situation specifically. As long as Beanie contacted you on-wiki, I personally don't see your reviews of Beanie's articles as collusion, since you theoretically could have rejected his on-wiki request (though from the comments above, I do think some people might've gotten that impression). Generally, I think it's fine for WikiCup competitors to ask specific editors to look at their articles, as long as the request falls within WP:APPNOTE.

I was saying that collusion, or more appropriately WP:CANVASSING, would be inappropriate. For example, if a contestant were to ask another editor to review their GAN via a private message, and then it got reviewed within 5 minutes, then that would be collusion/canvassing. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, Epicgenius. I appreciate it, and am happy to affirm that all of our discussion regarding GA reviews occurs on-Wiki. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)