Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

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Level 5 Subpages

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Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)

P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
   1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
   2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
   3. Have at least 4 participants.
2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
   1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
   2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

• 15 days ago is: 02:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• 7 days ago is: 02:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

If you're interested in regularly participating as a closer, the following browser tools may also be helpful:

• Streamlined closing with User:DaxServer/DiscussionCloser.js
• One click archiving with User:Elli/OneClickArchiver
  • Consider User:andrybak/Archiver if you prefer archiving several discussions in one go

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Military personnel, revolutionaries, and activists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Religious figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Writers and journalists

Add Norman Granz

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. "the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, musicians are still within the +/- 2% cushion, and jazz doesn't always get enough play. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move the troubadours, trouvères, and Minnesägner to musicians

I feel like these guys should be listed under musicians. Unlike the Greek lyricists like Sappho, we do have some of the original music that their poems were set to. (Admittedly, it's a small "some"—only about 12% according to the troubadours page—and I don't think the people I'm about to request to be moved are among those whose musical compositions survived.) However, I don't know where exactly they should be placed. I personally lean towards putting them under Western art music (either under Medieval and Renaissance composers, or even a new section like how ragtime or soundtrack composers have their own list) but I'm fine putting them in the songwriters section with Carl Michael Bellman and Stephen Foster.

Here are the people I want to move, plus two more that I'm just throwing in because they're either a troubadour, trouvère, or a Minnesinger:

1. Bertran de Born  5 (troubadour)
2. Chrétien de Troyes  4 (trovère; personally his chivalric romances firmly keeps him in the writers page)
3. Arnaut Daniel  5 (troubadour)
4. Wolfram von Eschenbach  5 (Minnesigner; he seems more important as a poet in general)
5. Rutebeuf  5 (trovère)
6. Tannhäuser  5 (Minnesigner)
7. William IX, Duke of Aquitaine  5 (troubadour)

Under Western art music (Medieval and Renaissance)

1. Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator, same exceptions. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Support with same exceptions, also support deferring Chretien to Lv4 (per Makkool below). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Under Western art music (new section)

Under songwriters

Keep under poets

Discuss

1. Chretien is Level 4, so moving him should be decided on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Leochares

Page's pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. @SailorGardevoir, Makkool, and Starship.paint: While I will admit that stubs are typically less vital, there are exceptions to that, and this sculptor is one. He worked on the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus  5, he created the Diana of Versailles (should probably be vital judging by its article), and he made several other popular sculptures. He is therefore vital enough to make the list, and you make a better argument for improving his article than removing it from the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   @QuicoleJR: - I'm not convinced that there is indeed enough information on him out there to make a comprehensive biography rather than a stub. starship.paint (RUN) 14:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   There are some decent results on Google Books and Google Scholar for anyone with the time and resources needed. A bad Brittanica article should not be the deciding factor for someone's vitality. Just because we don't have much in our article or Brittanica's doesn't mean he didn't have lasting importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   @QuicoleJR: the onus is on you to prove with links that there is detailed coverage of him, simply asserting is not good enough. starship.paint (RUN) 14:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Soft oppose, more on the proposal basis. I know current article quality gets mentioned a lot, and it can be a decent metric to factor in, but it's not one of our main criteria. Since prioritizing improvements is a main part of VA's stated purpose too, only picking already improved articles seems self-defeating. Plus we're still within the +/- 2% cushion for artists, and if we cut, we should probably prioritize more recent ones. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Moving discussion here for ease of reading. I'll see if I can find some links in a few minutes. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Although, I will just say that I think that the person is vital even without finding extra sources for expanding the article. He makes valid claims to vitality, and that should be enough. I don't see how article size factors in to it, and there are plenty of better targets for removal. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  It is my personal opinion that since the vital article project is intended to establish important articles that should be improved, if there are articles on a person/object that cannot be improved to a high quality because there is simply not enough information about the person/object out there, then we should not list them as vital. You would probably disagree. starship.paint (RUN) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think your opinion is valid. I am willing to retract my Oppose for now, since I have other things I care more about. However, I will put this on my to-do list and will propose adding it back to the list if I am able to destub it. Does this work for you? QuicoleJR (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  @QuicoleJR: - what I would be looking for is for someone, anyone to prove that there's enough information out there to satisfy FA requirements (it does not require that the article be updated). starship.paint (RUN) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Move Meir Kahane

Usually I would just do a bold move, but I have no idea where to put him. All I know is I don't feel like his current position (under religious figures) is the best place to put him. Yes, his Zionism was on the religious side and he was an ordained rabbi, but his beliefs at its very core was ultranationalist. Now I personally am in favor of putting him under rebels, but he was elected, and we have been moving those type of guys to politicians. I also get the rationale of placing him under terrorists.

To politicians

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

To rebels

To terrorists

1. Assuming we even keep terrorists as a subsection (which is inherently controversial and contested), as he is mentioned within the first paragraph alone as having been convicted on terrorism charges, and has an entire section entitled "terrorism and convictions". His term in the Knesset was a pretty small part of his overall career and during that time he arguably lacked institutional influence that others would normally have as he was boycotted by all other members. Iostn (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Keep under religious figures

Discuss

Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn

Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)

To politicians

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

To philosophers

1. Support move to philosophers. I only skimmed the article, but sounds like he wrote rather than led a religious community, and his political programme seems more secular. It doesn't sound like he had much real political authority or success though (similar to Plato in Syracuse). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Discuss

• Whatever the outcome, the article definitely makes it sound like his Buddhism was just a late-life interest and incidental to his career. So he probably shouldn't be grouped under Buddhist religious figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Baba Farid

Another person to make up for my recent proposals, although he seems to be just as important as a literature figure as he is a religious one, so I'll throw in that option as well. Seems pretty important amongst not just the Muslim population of Punjab, but for Punjabis in general.

Support (under Sufism)

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, both within People and its own section, I think Religion is probably the most under-represented topic on VA. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Support (under poets)

Oppose

1. weak Oppose, a little over 20 interwikis Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:54, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Moving entries from "rebels" to "terrorists"

"Terrorists" is always going to be controversial as a subsection, but as long as its there, it makes sense to list people there if they are described as "terrorist" by their own articles.

I think it used to suffer as a section when there was a subsection quota, which encouraged filling it in quite an arbitrary way to reach a certain number of articles, while others were listed in different places regardless of wherever it made much sense.

For this reason I will propose moving the following articles currently listed with "rebels, revolutionaries and activists":

• Carlos the Jackal  5 - described as committing "terrorist bombings" in the first sentence alone, and then directlty afterwards described as "one of the most notorious political terrorists of his era".
• Ayman al-Zawahiri  5 - lede doesn't actually use the word "terrorist", but it still remains strewn throughout the rest of the article, and as he was the second leader of Al-Qaeda  5, it doesn't make much sense to separate him from Osama bin Laden  4 listing-wise.
• Jihadi John  5 - "A group of his hostages nicknamed him "John" since he was part of a four-person terrorist cell"
• Abu Musab al-Zarqawi  5 - "ran a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan"

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Related proposal: Move Dylann Roof  5 from "murder" to "terrorism"

I would normally do myself but again, "terrorism" in inherently controversial as a label and ill-defined.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but I am not sure he should be listed in the first place. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Remove outright

1. _pbp 00:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Not a vital person. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Not vital Idiosincrático (talk) 20:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Agree with cutting him, if only for the depressing reason that mass-shooters like him are far from unique. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap: Remove Jamshid bin Abdullah of Zanzibar, add Ali Hassan Mwinyi and Samia Suluhu Hassan

At the present time, Zanzibar has two articles, including Jamshid, who fails the lettuce test of less than a year in office. Its successor nation, Tanzania, has sixty million people but only one article. Mwinyi served as president for 10 years and enacted a series of post-Nyerere reforms. Hassan is the country's first female president. Mwinyi and Hassan have significantly more interwikis than Jamshid. _pbp 22:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
4. I feel Mwinyi fits I don't know about Hassan. Besides be the first woman to do a bunch of things she hasn't really done anything major as president. Though I do not formally oppose her inclusion. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
5. Support, I don't particularly like using interwikis to pick articles, but the other points are very solid. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Leung Chun-ying

As with Tu above, Hong Kong is bloated with six post-1945 leaders, including five post-1997 leaders. Of the leaders of Hong Kong, he seems the least vital. _pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Don't really see how he's the least vital, he seems to mark an important milestone re: the erosion of Hong Kong's autonomy.

Discussion

Massive shift of politicians from early modern to post-classical without consensus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. Now it's 1500, meaning quite a few Renaissance figures are listed in post-classical when ANY historian worth his salt would have them in early modern. Dozens, perhaps over 100 figures were moved, and I'm not only concerned about the WP:RANDY aspect of this, I'm also concerned that moving that many figures should have only been done with a consensus. _pbp 17:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Who did it? The Blue Rider 20:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

It was SailorGardevoir _pbp 10:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@SailorGardevoir: The Blue Rider 11:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. - based on what? This should have been noted somewhere on the vital list page. Thing is, Post-classical history says until 1500 CE, and early modern period says it starts about 1500. So what should be the year for the split? starship.paint (RUN) 14:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. If the leaders/politicians page explicitly had a different timeline structure, then by all means revert it. However, so long as we have a generic four period structure as we do for most of the other pages (Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern, and Late modern), we need to stick with what our own articles on those periods state are the years they lasted. And if anyone has an issue with this, please go to this discussion, because I do think we need a clear answer for this. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Hun Manet

Cambodia's current leader, I know he hasn't served a full year yet but him being the first new leader in 37 years makes him vital IMO. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't really see why we are priotizing him over other new leaders especially when his accesion doesn't seem to herald any significant change in Cambodia. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Unlikely to be seen as vital in 20 years' time. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add serial killer Pedro Rodrigues Filho

Per his cultural influence in Brazil, and this list needs less US bias. Also inspired the protagonist of Dexter (TV series)  5.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Definitely. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
4. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Add to Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Murder,_serial_killing,_mass_murder. starship.paint (RUN) 12:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Add Georgette Heyer

My previous removal nominations, as well as the ones still to come, should make enough room to add this woman. She has had a major impact on the Romance novel  4 genre, having a major role in popularizing the historical romance subgenre and creating a new subgenre of that. 40 of her books currently have their own articles. 24 interwikis, rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Romance and WikiProject Women writers.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add John Barrowman or swap with Mike Farrell  5

Barrowman is a quite significant scottish actor and being LGBTQ he would help diversify the list. I offer a swap given that the list of entertainers is over the quota. I suggest Farrell as Barrowman has 12 more interwikis than him and Farrell only really has one significant role being MASH. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. I also vote for the swap. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ibn Muqla to Persian artists

Per Brittanica, this 9th century Persian calligrapher invented naskh (script), tawqi and thuluth, and was thrice vizier of the Abbasid Caliphate. starship.paint (RUN) 07:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, and agree with move to Artists (at least for now). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Discussion - standard for a V5 actor?

If I may suggest, we can establish a standard for V5 actors by naming actors that do meet this level of vitality, and comparing the rest of the entries on the list to this group. If the other entries are not on this level, they should be removed. I have listed 10 relatively modern English-speaking actors below, of various nationalities. How does everyone feel about this list? Do these 10 set a good enough standard? Is there any one of these 10 that are not on the others' level?

1. Keanu Reeves  5
2. Nicolas Cage  5
3. Tom Cruise  5
4. Leonardo DiCaprio  5
5. Robert Downey Jr.  5
6. Brad Pitt  5
7. Arnold Schwarzenegger  5
8. Daniel Day-Lewis  5
9. Gary Oldman  5
10. Hugh Jackman  5

starship.paint (RUN) 01:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• @Iostn, OlifanofmrTennant, Makkool, Tabu Makiadi, and Aurangzebra: - who participated in an actors' discussion above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint: I would swap Downey with someone else maybe George Clooney  5. I I think removals should happen and a standered set. This seems to be exclusively film actors and not stage or television. For stage Derek Jacobi  5 and maybe Michael Hordern  5?

  I have made a list of TV actors

  1. Neil Patrick Harris  5
  2. Andy Griffith  5
  3. Bryan Cranston  5
  4. Mr. T  5
  5. William Hartnell  5
  6. George Takei  5
  7. Ed Asner  5
  8. James Hong  5
  9. Kelsey Grammer  5
  10. Peter Dinklage  5 or David Tennant  5

  I think these 10 fit. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 05:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

  @OlifanofmrTennant: - I am not as familiar about TV or stage actors. I listed Downey as due to him possibly being the highest-grossing lead actor of all time. Though, Clooney is fine as well. Not sure about Takei though, surely he is outshined by Leonard Nimoy  5 or William Shatner  5? starship.paint (RUN) 07:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint: Oh I didn't know the about Downey. I would be willing to swap Takei out for Nimoy or Shatner Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 15:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint I generally like this list. However, I think I would remove Keanu Reeves and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think the 'golden' standard list should include actors who are both popular in the mainstream and have won a substantial amount of acting awards over their career. Reeves and Schwarzenegger achieve the first criteria but not the second. I would possibly consider replacing them with Denzel Washington  5 or Samuel L. Jackson  5 (in fact, I would take both of them on this list over most of the current inclusions). Aurangzebra (talk) 02:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Agree on Reeves and Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger has more prestigious awards as an bodybuilder than as an actor. So we could list him in athletes like Jet Li for martial arts. Reeves has been in popular movies, but he might not reach the acting acclaim criteria. Makkool (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'd say Schwarzenegger is still much more culturally influential as an actor than as a bodybuilder. A limitation of awards, no single proxy for vitality is infallible.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Aurangzebra, Makkool, LaukkuTheGreit, and OlifanofmrTennant: - well, as a sidestep of an acting award, Schwarzenegger won an election to become Governor of California in 2003, having never held public office before, and having retired from bodybuilding in 1980. What led him to win is left as an exercise for the reader. starship.paint (RUN) 12:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  But if we are looking for a gold standard to compare our actors to, wouldn't it not make sense to include him then? How would he compare him to other actors if we have to factor in his political career? Aurangzebra (talk) 16:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd feel better about these lists if the WHY accompanied the WHO. (Related, since I see William Hartnell and David Tennant listed, is playing Doctor Who a mark of VA5?) _pbp 02:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Tennant has been pretty prolific outside of Doctor Who. I wasn’t completely sure for the tenth entry that’s why I listed two. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

And another question: is the "standard" the MOST VITAL that didn't make VA4, or is it the MEDIAN vitality of VA5-not-VA4? 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC) _pbp 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Purplebackpack89:, I'll explain my rational, I tried to create a diverse list.

1. Neil Patrick Harris was picked for How I Met Your Mother  5 as well as other shows, he has received serveral awards. He is openly gay and named one of times 100 Most Influential People in 2010.
2. Andy Griffith for the The Andy Griffith Show  5, he's in the Television Hall of Fame, a portion of US Highway 52 is dedicated to him.
3. Bryan Cranston, Malcolm in the Middle]] and Breaking Bad  5 he's receved extensive awards. In recent years he's done a lot of broadway acting,
4. Mr. T for The A-Team and his wrestling career, he had major role in Rocky 3. Possibly not as strong as the other entries.
5. William Hartnell for Doctor Who  4 and his other pretty long career.
6. George Takei for Star Trek  4. Takei is also a LGBT rights advicat being openly gay.

I can get too the others shortly would anyone like to propose any changes? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• @Purplebackpack89: - for my film actors list, my hope is that it would be the median of V5. A 'just below V4' list would not be useful. starship.paint (RUN) 12:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Let me consider this: the AFI list, the Kennedy Center Honors, and Academy Awards. Many of the people on the AFI list are VA4 and the ones that aren't are near the Top of VA5. Same deal with KCH. Academy Awards is kind of a mixed bag, because there doesn't seem to be a great correlation between winning an Academy Award in a particular year and being considered one of the greatest ever. That being said, probably the MEDIAN or average of a VA5-not-VA4 is one Academy Award. Daniel Day-Lewis has three lead actor awards, so I think he's ABOVE the median VA5-not-VA4 actor. _pbp* 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  It would sound better to me to compare to lists by outside experts just as these, rather than to make a top ten yardstick ourselves. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

My batch of US actor removals was closed, and most of the actors suggested got removed. It seems to be a consensus that being a winner of just one Academy Award (Rami Malek, Forest Whitaker and Chris Cooper) or just one Golden Globe (James Franco) wasn't enough to be considered vital with these actors. Also starring in a popular film franchise (Zac Efron) wasn't grounds for being listed. Seth Rogen didn't get support for removal - he seems to be the actor of such caliber to be included. What do you guys think about the results? (Another question is how much do we need to cut US actors any more as we are already close to quota in the section.) Makkool (talk) 17:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The right size?

I figure probably the right number of actors and actresses is somewhere between 300 and 400. So we have at least twice the actors and actresses as we should _pbp 19:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Purplebackpack89: It should presumably be split 50/50. 488 actors and 465 actresses. Both need to be cut by around half. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 01:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if it should be 50-50. At least, when I looked at contemporary actresses, I don't see them being as vital as the contemporary actors. I think actors have more career longevity? Anyway, drastic cuts are needed, and anyone like Jared Leto absolutely need to go. starship.paint (RUN) 15:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

300 would be 5 times the amount of actors and actresses in V4, which should be just the right amount. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif  5, Olga Brusnikina  5, and Anastasia Davydova  5

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes  5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, more on the basis of the proposal. Neither current article quality nor interwikis are one of our criteria, though both are good metrics to factor in. I could see both metrics being biased against figures popular outside the English-speaking world though. I've already discussed above how rejecting articles that are currently stubs / starts could be self-defeating. Sports figures are still within our +/- 2% cushion too so I don't think we need to cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Branimir of Croatia to politicians

Father of medieval Croatia

Support

1. _pbp 16:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Swap Kander and Ebb  5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb

Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Support add, oppose removal

1. Weird vote, I know, and I've never even heard of these two. But they've already made it to VA5, and we're still within the cushion for Musicians, so I say make the overlap explicit on the list. If their articles should be consolidated, then that needs to be decided at the actual article level. Maybe seeing the redundancy clearly on the list will stimulate that (which is the ultimate goal of VA). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Bryan brothers  5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan

Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Support add, oppose removal

1. Same logic as above; redundancies like this should probably be resolved at the article level. And as long as there's room, making them explicit on the list may help stimulate that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Christian Samuel Weiss

Only three paragraphs.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Thi (talk) 20:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Soft oppose, mainly on the proposal basis. See above comments for why I don't like using current article quality as a measure of vitality. Plus we're still technically a few people under quota for Scientists, and last time I checked (months ago granted), we should probably cut from Physicists if anywhere. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Lakandula  5

Only four interwikis.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

   Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Appears to be a significant pre-colonial ruler who is still commemorated today in the Philippines in the present day, interwikis are not a great way of measuring vitality for something as underrepresnted as pre-colonial historical figures in the Global South Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per above Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, mainly on the proposal basis. See above comments for why I'm leery of using interwikis to decide vitality, especially for figures outside the English-speaking world. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Francis II of France

Only ruled for one year. Was basically just a pawn for his mother.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 20:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Abdel Fattah al-Burhan

Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. If we're going to have current national leaders, this guy seems pretty notable. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Joseph Kasa-Vubu

First President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (from only five today), serving from 1960 to 1965. His tensions with Patrice Lumumba  4 were one of the causes of the Congo Crisis  5. Also, the DRC has 105 million people and only 4 politicians.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. PizzaKing13 (¡Hablame!) 🍕👑 19:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Friedrich Ebert

He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.

Support

1. As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Georgi Plekhanov

Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.

Support

1. As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sylvia Pankhurst

Arguably a more effective activist than her mother, Emmeline Pankhurst  4, her work was characterized by a commitment to what we would today call intersectionality. Focusing on class and gender, she was one of the leading European figures for decolonization and was active on three continents.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Surprised there isn't an article on the Pankhurst family Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. The pre-eminent figure of the early British communist movement and very influential in soliciting allied support for Ethiopia. 34 interwikis, averages 245 page views per day. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, we have the room under Rebels & Activists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nadezhda Krupskaya

Russian revolutionary who played an important role in the October Revolution  5 and as an architect of the early Soviet system, particularly education and women’s rights.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, we have the room under Rebels or Leaders really. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sophus Lie

Norwegian mathematician best known for his contributions to Lie algebra  5s and Lie group  5s, named after him.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, we still have room under Scientists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Honoré I, Lord of Monaco

There's been rumbling around here regarding the ratio of the population of a country and the amount of leaders that we made vital. I should note that Monaco has nine people on here despite having a population of less than 40k. I'm going to nominate this guy; I'm just not seeing anything that would make him vital.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, let's close this article out. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Adrian Lamo  5

Other than exposing Chelsea Manning  5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Very soft oppose, if only because we're still under-quota for Miscellaneous. For all the over-representation of tech elsewhere, hacker/activist strikes me as an interesting category for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Bad Brains

Known for influencing Foo Fighters  5, Beastie Boys  5, Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers  5 etc. Known for combining Reggae  4 with Hardcore punk  5 and Alternative metal. It is also known for being a Rastafari  4 band, and one of the earliest Hardcore punk  5 pioneers.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 06:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not a well-known band and some of the bands they've influenced are likely to also be removed _pbp 13:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

   What do you mean by well-known? Do you mean mainstream? Sure, but there's a bunch of bands we list that aren't really "mainstream", but defining for the genre. For bands they've influenced, I guess you're right here. However, there's pretty clear bands that are definitely vital like Guns N' Roses  5 or Nirvana (band)  4, so the claim isn't really lost.

   I think Bad Brains are vital in the same reason on why we list Black Flag (band)  5, Minor Threat  5, or Dead Kennedys  5. Is there something that I'm missing to why they aren't vital? 49p (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

   Musicians and bands is very bloated right now and the bands that didn't achieve long-term success or have many chart-topping hits are either not going to be removed or not going to be added in the first place _pbp 13:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Agüeybaná II and Cunhambebe

Both only have three interwikis. Wish I can think of another historical native Brazilian leader to replace the latter, but I can't. The Taíno still have Hatuey  5 though.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. We should probably have more Native American leaders, not fewer _pbp 13:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose, primarily on the proposal basis. See above comments for why I don't like using interwikis to decide vitality, especially for figures outside the English-speaking world. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Willie O'Ree

First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".

Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we still have a little cushion in sports figures, and I like hockey. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Vito Volterra

Regarded as a founder of Functional analysis  4. Known for multiple equations, including Lotka–Volterra equations  5.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 02:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Sure, we're still under quota in Scientists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Leah Keshet with D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson

Thompson is far more notable under the topic of mathematical and theoretical biology. Well known for On Growth and Form, his work has influenced incredibly notable academics including Alan Turing  3, Claude Lévi-Strauss  4, Le Corbusier  4, and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe  4.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Support add, oppose removal

1. We're still under quota for Scientists, and within that topic, Physicists are over-represented. Why not keep both? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Florence La Badie with Rachel McAdams

Plenty of more notable Canadian actresses. Proposing a swap with Rachel McAdams so that a modern Canadian actress can be added, which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have yet.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support remove for now Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Peter Mansbridge

Broadcast journalists and commentators is pretty American/Australian-centric at the moment, with most of the 80 articles listed being from either of the two countries. There currently isn't a Canadian/Canadian-based broadcast journalist in this category and I feel that Mansbridge is probably the most notable of them. To justify the lack of interwikis, many other journalists currently listed in this category also don't have much interwikis either.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 16:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Long career at the head of a major network, lots of awards, and the article is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Canada. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Marguerite Perey

French physicist best known for her discovery of Francium  4.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
2. She discovered an element, was nominated for a Nobel prize five times, and was the first woman elected to the Académie des Sciences. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Grnrchst. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, we are a little Physicist heavy, but we're still under quota, coverage is biased towards men, and discovering an element seems plenty notable to me. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Maria Margarethe Kirch

German astronomer who is regarded as one of the most prolific women scientists of the 18th century.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:0, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Support: woman astronomer, pre-1800s, and we're still under quota / the +/- 2% cushion. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove István Fekete  5

Obscure Hungarian children's author, article does not make him seem vital enough. Writers is over quota as well.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Magda Szabó, Antal Szerb, and Sándor Márai are better bets to join Imre Kertész  5 and Jókai as far as Hungarian writers go. J947 ‡ ^edits 09:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Changing my vote to support removal. Makkool (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

His book Vuk is very popular and has been translated to many languages. It might be considered an enduring classic only in its origin country, but I would still keep this to lessen Western European and US bias. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

• Might be worth noting that several Hungarian sources describe Fekete as the second most widely-read Hungarian author, after Mór Jókai  5.[1][2][3][4] --Grnrchst (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Remove Jean Eustache  5

Seems to be most well-known for directing one acclaimed feature film, making only one other feature-length film and several little-known short films. That seems way off vital level.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 20:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 105th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator [5]. We list 433 directors. With that many slots, I think everyone in the top 150-200 deserves a spot (and for the most part, we do this; I took a quick look through the list and we list almost every director above Eustache with a few exceptions such as Robert Altman proposed above). Aurangzebra (talk) 23:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

   Would it be reasonable to list The Mother and the Whore instead, since most of his vitality seems to be linked to that film alone? Iostn (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Minimum appearances for VA5 entertainers

I propose the following bare minimums:

• A film actor needs to appear in at least five films
• A television actor or host needs to have done it for at least three seasons
• A director needs to have directed at least five films or at least a dozen television episodes
• Producers or other crew...same as directors

_pbp 20:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems like a safe minimum. I don't think a vital person that has fewer than this could be listed. 49p (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'm not really sure that we need hard quotas for this. This is a reasonable standard by all means but there are exceptions that make sense and if there are any exceptions, there doesn't seem to be a point to codifying a quota. Two examples off the top of my head that I don't think anyone would vote to remove: Jean Vigo  5 is an extremely influential French New Wave inspiration who is considered the 44th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator. He only directed 4 films (and only 1 of these was a full-length feature film). Another example is James Dean  5. He was an iconic actor and is still extremely well-known to this day but has only appeared in 3 credited roles before his untimely death. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vitality is relative, a VA5 topic should be taken out due to voters feeling that there are 50000 more vital ones. They can be vital for a variety of reasons, and any hard prescriptive stat requirement could turn out to be prematurely thought out (even if better stats often but not always indicate more vitality).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
3. I think a statistical minimum for inclusion on the list is not a good idea. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

To @Aurangzebra: and @LaukkuTheGreit:, I ask this: how many fewer entertainers should VA5 have, and what's your plan to reduce it to that number? There's consensus that entertainers are greatly bloated, esp. in proportion to VA4, but what's the plan to clean it up? _pbp 15:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Purplebackpack89: I actually did have an idea for this. I think the hard part about deciding who to remove is that we don't know every person listed at first glance, so we have to go out of their way to skim their Wikipedia article, assess the stats, and come up with a judgment before we decide to make a proposal. This process takes a long time. What I've explored doing (I am currently doing this with American and Canadian modern authors and I will have a batch of proposals out soon) is passing the entire list to an LLM service (I use GPT-4o through my work) and asking it to give a few paragraphs of summary on their biography, accomplishments, their legacy, and why people would consider them notable. It is surprisingly easy to see if something is a candidate for removal from these bite-sized summaries that take a few seconds to skim through. In my opinion, we should do this for all our VA5 articles (this may be easier for People as opposed to concepts), post these somewhere, and have people skim through them to get an idea of what we can remove.

I may try doing this tonight for actors and posting it on some public repository somewhere (maybe my user page) so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. Let me know what you think. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar _pbp 18:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar _pbp 19:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I've been waiting/hoping that User:Zar2gar1 (or someone else) eventually makes the stat-based vitality estimator that has occasionally been talked about. Although VA participants, including me in my oppose vote just above, have cautioned against overreliance on stats, there is still a notable correlation; the way I envision the estimator to be used is to quickly find articles with weak or strong vitality claims, with nominators focusing more on the claims than stats.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Add John C. Bogle

Founder of the The Vanguard Group  5. Known for his different approach to investing, abstaining from short-term speculation and popularizing the index fund to working-class individuals. His approach to investment is still widely used today, namely those who followed are called "Bogleheads".

Support

1. 49p (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we could use more business people (under Miscellaneous), and while he didn't invent passive-investment, he possibly did more than any one person to make it so dominant today. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Espionage additions

Above I said that the Espionage subsection under "Miscellaneous" probably should have more than eight listings. Granted there are some that could fit under it that are also under other categories (such as Markus Wolf  5 of the Stasi) but there are others who do not.

Add Eli Cohen

Mossad agent who infiltrated the Syrian government and was later executed, and remains a famed figure in Israeli society.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @Iostn: - I have linked the espionage section in your comment. I think it is best practice to help closers. Thank you. starship.paint (RUN) 00:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Add Chevalier d'Éon

18th century French spy who has been the subject of intrigue for centuries, remains referenced in pop culture and is seen as a figure of transgender history.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Oleg Penkovsky

Since we already have numerous high profile British and American spies for the Soviet Union listed, here is one of the most high-profile examples of the reverse happening.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Mata Hari  5 to espionage

Mata Hari is currently listed under dancers, but while most of her enduring fame wouldn't have been as widespread if she wasn't a spy, she was definitely also notable as a dancer. I don't have an opinion on this so I will not vote.

Support

1. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Most definitely being a spy merits her being on the list more than her dancing career. Makkool (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. --Thi (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Strong support, good catch. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Swap: Remove B. J. Penn and Chuck Liddell, add George Hackenschmidt

MMA is overrepresented with 15 athletes despite being a considerably younger sport than wrestling. MMA is skewed toward the recent UFC; all fifteen entries were born in the last 61 years and competed in the last 31. 40% of them are American males; of those, Penn and Liddell appear to be the least notable; having the fewest overall wins, fewest title wins, and fewest interwikis.

George Hackenschmidt was the first world heavyweight wrestling champion, and also invented the bench press _pbp 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 14:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Liddell and Hackenschmidt per nom. Neutral on Penn because he seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Kai Cenat

Proposing because a couple of editors preferred adding Cenat to Web entertainers and internet personalities in my proposal to add IShowSpeed.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 15:40, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. incredibly recent creator. Several better options then Cenat Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 05:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Carl Woese

Helped define Archaea  3. Described on the ranks with Charles Darwin  3, Francis Crick  4, and James Watson  4. Helped revolutionize microbiology with 16S ribosomal RNA. 33 interwikis

Support

1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Thomas Cavalier-Smith

Has proposed and defined many higher taxa such as Rhizaria  4, Excavata  4, Cryptomonad  4, Chromalveolata  4, Chromista  5, Euglenozoa  4, Bikont  5, Radiolaria  5, Cercozoa  5, Opisthokonta, and Viridiplantae. 28 interwikis

Support

1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Armand Duplantis, possibly remove Renaud Lavillenie

He's only 24 but he has the last 9 world records in pole vault. Keep in mind that the 6 meter barrier in pole vault was considered an impossible feat until Sergey Bubka  4 finally broke it. A pole vault of 6 meters exactly would get you a gold at every single Olympics up to and including 2012. Duplantis' world record is 6.25m. This is a full 0.09 meters over the next best record (in a sport where <0.05 meters typically separates the best pole vaulters in competition). Even if Duplantis were to retire tomorrow, he would be VA5 material since he has already established himself as the greatest pole vaulter of all time.

If we must do a swap, I propose Renaud Lavillenie who held the world record before Duplantis. I personally do not want to remove him since he seems to be outclassed in every way by Duplantis. His only claim to fame was that he was the intermediate world record between Bubka and Duplantis but he only has 1 Olympic gold medal and 0 golds at the world championships. 3 male pole vaulters in VA5 may be a bit much and we definitely shouldn't be removing Sergey Bubka  4 who revolutionized the sport. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
4. Both. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
5. Support add, weak support remove. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. B3251_(talk) 17:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Broke an world-record, is that it? Does not seem vital. The Blue Rider 16:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

   He is the undisputed greatest pole vaulter of all time, he has the 9 best pole vault records of all time, he hasn't lost a pole vault competition in 5 years, and he has 2 Olympic and World golds. He is also only the 11th athlete ever to win gold at the youth, junior, and senior world championships. If you don't think that's sufficient for inclusion, then you'd have to remove half of the rest of the Athletics section too. I'm honestly not sure what else he can do at this point that would convince you to list him because he's done it all already. We list 91 Athletics athletes but even if we only listed the top 50, I believe he would merit a spot. It's also worth noting that we list Yelena Isinbayeva  5 who is his female counterpart (2 Olympic golds, 3 worlds, world record holder). Should we remove her too? Aurangzebra (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

FWIW, Lavillenie seems decidedly NOT VA5 to me. _pbp 16:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yea, I change my mind and agree with you. If we included every athlete who had a world record at some point, we would have hundreds and that seems to be his only claim to fame. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

See also my "effect of Olympics" thread below. We may need to have a larger discussion about how many world records or medals get you on _pbp 00:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Were Duplantis not such a massive outlier Lavillenie would stand out. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

He just set his 10th world record: [6] for anyone who thinks maybe a double digit number of world records hits the cusp but single digits don't. Aurangzebra (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Effect of 2024 Olympics on VA5 sports

• Armand Duplantis is being proposed to be swapped in
• Katie Ledecky, Simone Biles, and several Team USA male and female basketball players already were listed
• Three other names I'd suggest are Emma McKeon, Léon Marchand and Sifan Hassan. McKeon is a swimmer with a ton of medals (one of seven Olympians in any sport at least fourteen, including six golds). Marchand was the breakout hometown hero of the past games, winning four golds. Hassan has six medals, including three golds, spanning four individual distances

_pbp 19:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

• Hassan yes, McKeon okay, Marchand not so sure, too early to say I think. starship.paint (RUN) 14:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Hassan seems like an easy add, not sure about the rest but would lean a support for both. 49p (talk) 01:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Remove Luc Ferry  5

No info about any kind of influence he's had over philosophy, the section he is listed as vital under. He was also Minister for Youth, National Education and Research of France for two years, but that isn't exactly a super influential position that's enough to warrent inclusion, either. I imagine most of the interwikis are from his cabinet position, and pageviews are not that high either.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Akira Mutō  5 to crimes against humanity (under "Miscellaneous")

This seems even more clear-cut than Gilles de Rais, since the atrocities he is responsible for seem to be the only thing making him vital.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Shireen Abu Akleh to journalists

Among the most notable journalists who have worked during the Israel-Palestine conflict, this would help reduce sysbias in that section

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Carlo Ginzburg

Italian historian, best known as the author of The Cheese and the Worms, which has been called "probably the most popular and widely read work of microhistory".

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Historians in general is too Anglocentric as it stands Iostn (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

References

SF and fantasy writer removals

We list a lot of science fiction and fantasy writers from USA and the UK. I think we could cut some of them. I could nominate more, but let's see how these go.

Remove Jonathan Carroll

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Not as well-known as the other ones we list: no prestigious awards like the Hugo or Nebula, or cultural significane in the shape of TV or movie adaptations.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
2. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:06, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
5. _pbp 15:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove David Eddings  5

Author of several best-selling books, but not as vital as Terry Brooks  5 for example. The article doesn't mention any literary awards and no film adaptations.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, writers is over quota, and it's just an assumption, but I'm guessing the English language is over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Raymond E. Feist  5

Another writer of best-sellers, the other writers on the list are more vital in my opinion. No major literary awards, the Inkpot Award is handed out by the Comic-Con.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, writers is over quota, and it's just an assumption, but I'm guessing the English language is over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Piers Anthony  5

Another profilic writer, but without prestigious awards.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, writers is over quota, and it's just an assumption, but I'm guessing the English language is over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sebastián Garcilaso de la Vega y Vargas  5

Lesser known explorer and conquistador. Seems to be most known as the father of Inca Garcilaso de la Vega  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and I'm not sure if he's genuinely not notable. His article may simply need more work. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Milton A. Rothman  5

Not much claim vitality. He's a professor who founded a sci-fi convention.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Roger Mudd

A well-known American TV journalist. Dan Rather  5 from the same era of television is listed, and Mudd seems to be equally vital as him. Won multiple Emmy awards and the Peabody award.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Sex criminal removals

Remove Keith Raniere  5

Detailed article, but low interwikis suggest he isn't that important.

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think the impact of NXIVM is sufficient to include him here. Iostn (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

   Maybe we should swap him for the organization. Kevinishere15 (talk) 03:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

2. Very weak oppose, mainly on the proposal basis and using interwikis to decide vitality. I could maybe see removing him for recentism and pop-culture notoriety. But we're still under quota at Miscellaneous, and if we're going to have a section for people like him, he is relatively notable. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Christopher Paul Neil  5

Low amount of interwikis, not sure why this is vital, being a well publicized case? there are more famous cases that we don't list.

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Just known for being a large distributor who would swirl his face that was popularized by Reddit. 49p (talk) 15:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Richard Huckle  5

More interwikis on this one, still don't see why he would be vital

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Agostino Tassi  5

Artemisia Gentileschi is vital, not sure why we need the man that raped her.

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Richard Jordan Gatling

Famous gun designer, the inventor of the first successful machine gun.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Invented the Gatling gun  5, which was the first Machine gun  4. Should be listed. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, we should still be within quota / 2% cushion for Scientists & Inventors, and inventors may still be under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Throbbing Gristle  5

To be fair, the band is influential to Industrial music (We don't list industrial in VA but it's definitely Noise music  5). But, this band is more of a niche act known for their harsh transgressive sound and is nothing more than a cult following.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 23:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Noise is a far too marginal genre to list an artist from. I would support swapping this with Einstürzende Neubauten, as they are more influential in general in the electronic music genre. Makkool (talk) 16:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

   I would support with a swap with Einstürzende Neubauten cause of the same reasons that you said. They have a more general influence and a better cross-genre appeal in their later years. 49p (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

   Neubauten are influential but I am highly skeptical of the claim they are moreso than TG (who preceded them), and I don't understand why the comparatively more niche (and more straightforwardly "noise") Merzbow  5 isn't being proposed before this, which I don't even necessarily support removing either. Iostn (talk) 16:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Throbbing Gristle are a rare type of artist that can be argued to be the primary progenitor of an entire genre (most of the other early industrial musicians were active after them, and there isn't really anyone before them who can be said to have been industrial before them), with industrial going on to be a widely expansive style that eventually covered more accessible and less avant-garde forms of music, via electro-industrial, industrial rock, industrial metal and others. Also its related to noise music certainly, but isn't really the same thing. Their ultimate influence goes far beyond cult following, with them ultimately having a greater influence on popular music than for example, Merzbow  5. Iostn (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

UK modern Christian leaders additions

There is a disproportionate amount of American Christian leaders, especially televangelists, in the religious leaders section. There's just a few people listed from the UK, even Australia has more. American Christians are surely influential in the global scene and more well-known figures, but I think we should have some more British people on that list for diversity's sake. I have here some suggestions to consider, not everyone needs to be added.

I also think we could spare to remove some of the televangelists to have more proportionality, we don't even have Televangelism  5 as a vital article. But that'll be a separate proposal.

Probably three or four of the modern American televangelists should be removed. Of these additions, I think one is fair, but all three is excessive. It bears mentioning that contemporary UK is largely a nation of non-adherents. _pbp 15:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

If we would decide that just one is needed, then maybe we should choose to list the current Archbishop of Canterbury. Although Williams is arguably more famous than Welby. Makkool (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Add Justin Welby

The currect Archbishop of Canterbury, and the leader of the worldwide Anglican church. Has focused in social justice and modern challenges in his leadership.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but ironically looks like he's not going to be at Canterbury much longer. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add John Sentamu

A former Archbishop of York, the second highest leader in Church of England. Originally from Uganda, he was the first black Archbishop of York. An influential figure in the UK, and an out-spoken critic against African dictators.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we're still a bit below quota for religious figures, and if we allow BLPs for other topics, why not here? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Rowan Williams

A former Archbishop of Canterbury. A respected theologian, public intellectual and Christian writer in the UK, a still active commentator today.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Of the three proposed additions, I consider he to be the most worthy _pbp 22:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Surprised we don't list him honestly; I'm neither British nor Christian, but I've definitely read about him. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

American televangelist removals

I agree with pbp above, that three or four American televangelists should be removed. I have decided to suggest the following to be cut. FYI, I chose to keep Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker and Oral Roberts of the ones who were described to be televangelist in the article.

Remove Jerry Falwell  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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He's quite known as the founder of Moral Majority, but in total he seems less vital than the others. We just can't list every famous conservative activist or televangelist.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Probably the only one you've suggested that I disagree with. Very influential to the Christian right and general conservative movements of the 1980's in the United States. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
2. If I were just keeping two televangelists, it would be Billy Graham (Billy, not Franklin!) and Falwell. One of the men most responsible for politicizing Evangelical Christianity _pbp 19:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Tammy Faye Messner

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Famous for working together with her husband Jim Bakker. I think listing just Bakker is enough.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Remove Jim Bakker instead. Tammy Faye has more interwikis than Jim and they have about the same number of pageviews. The religious leaders section has a serious gender problem, and removing both Tammy Faye and Paula White would make it worse _pbp 17:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Paula White

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Famous for being Donald Trump's spiritual advisor, and speaking on his inauguration ceremony. Feels like a case of recentism.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 18:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
5. --Thi (talk) 21:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Rick Warren

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wrote the best-selling book The Purpose Driven Life, and spoke on Barack Obama's inauguration ceremony. He seems to be a popular and successful Christian figure, but I'm not seeing that he would have had impact on larger society unlike some other evangelists.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 18:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
5. --Thi (talk) 21:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Franklin Graham

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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1) Redundant to his father, who's also listed 2) Has 15 interwikis, half the number of Falwell, who's also up for Removal

Support

1. _pbp 18:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
5. --Thi (talk) 21:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Joel Osteen  5

Doesn't seem any more vital to me than Rick Warren _pbp 19:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 18:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Senior pastor of one of the largest megachurches in the US, gets more attendance than Rick Warren's church. "One of the more prominent figures associated with prosperity theology", from the article. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   We have both Osteen and Oral Roberts representing prosperity gospel. If we keep Osteen, we should maybe consider removing Roberts _pbp 18:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   If prosperity gospel should be represented by only one person, then Roberts should definitely stay. He is a too foundational figure to be not listed. My view is Osteen would be the best to represent a contemporary televangelist. Makkool (talk) 11:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Evangelical/Pentecostals at VA5: the lowdown

I count 15 of this persuasion:

1. Jim Bakker
2. William M. Branham
3. Jerry Falwell
4. Billy Graham
5. Franklin Graham
6. John G. Lake
7. Aimee Semple McPherson
8. Tammy Faye Messner
9. Joel Osteen
10. Charles Fox Parham
11. Oral Roberts
12. Pat Robertson
13. William J. Seymour
14. Rick Warren
15. Paula White

• This represents half of all Protestants who ministered post-1800
• All are American (two born in Canada who ministered in USA)
• All but William Joseph Seymour are white
• 12 of the 15 are men, with two of the three women being proposed for removal
• All were active in the 20th or 21st centuries,
• Just over half post-date Billy Graham,
• Graham is the only person of this persuasion at Level 4, and also the leader in interwikis (64) and pageviews in a 30-day period (75,103)
• Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, and Joel Osteen are the other three with at least 30,000 page views in a 30-day period (or 1,000 per day)
• Falwell and Robertson are the other two with at least 25 interwikis
• FWIW, of the 54 protestants currently listed, 29 are American, 10 are British, 7 are German, 4 are Swiss, and we have one each from the Netherlands, Finland (though he's proposed to be moved to a different section), South Africa and Australia

_pbp 19:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Very useful, thanks for combing these through. I could make a proposal for one woman televangelist to maintain gender balance. Maybe someone like Joyce Meyer to replace Tammy Faye Messner and Paula White. (She was listed as one of "25 Most Influential Evangelicals in America" in 2005.)

Would you think we would need some British Evangelical leader? I was thinking maybe Nicky Gumbel (developer of the Alpha Course) or Steve Chalke (known for his social activism).

(I had counted only modern leaders, and Protestants and Catholics together, to get more Australians that Brits.) Makkool (talk) 11:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Gumbel has only five interwikis and Chalke doesn't have any so they're rather nonstarters for me _pbp 12:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, @Makkool:, awhile back, GuzzyG flooded the VA5 list with Australians, so it is more likely Australians are OVERrepresented than that Brits are UNDERrepresented _pbp 14:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Moving pirates, outlaws, highwaymen etc from "rebels, revolutionaries and activists" to Misellaneous#Crime

As it stands the activist section seems to be the default place to dump entries like these, although I am pretty sure crime makes a lot more sense. I've finally attempted to go through and grab the various pirate/outlaw entries listed there and proposed places to fit them under the Crime section. "Piracy" currently does not exist as a subsection under crime, but you can consider creating that as part of this proposal.

Piracy

• Blackbeard  4
• Calico Jack  5
• Anne Bonny  5
• William Kidd  5
• Henry Morgan  5
• Bartholomew Roberts  5
• Zheng Yi Sao  5

Thievery, robbery and hijacking

• Claude Duval  5
• John Nevison  5
• Dick Turpin  5
• Xaver Hohenleiter  5
• Juraj Jánošík  5
• Louis Mandrin  5
• John Caesar  5
• Jesús Arriaga  5
• Joaquin Murrieta  5

Organized crime

• Tiburcio Vásquez  5
• Veerappan  5

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Blackbeard is Level 4, so for him a proposal needs to be opened on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   Crime isn't even a section at V4 so I'm not proposing it be moved there Iostn (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   You're right! Pablo Escobar  4 is in businesspeople. That's a tangle to sort. Makkool (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Swap Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein for Albert II, Prince of Monaco

Liechtenstein has a higher population than Monaco, but is not represented by anyone whilst Monaco currently has two Albert II, Prince of Monaco and his father Rainier III, Prince of Monaco. Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein is the richest and arguably the most constitutionally powerful monarch in Europe (aside from the Pope) per the 2003 Liechtenstein constitutional referendum. He has also reigned longer than Albert II and whilst his son does act as regent, he himself acted as regent for his father. Sahaib (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• FYI, we DO have Johann II, Prince of Liechtenstein at VA5. But we probably do have too many Monagasque rulers _pbp 20:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• @Purplebackpack89: Thanks, I was looking at the Contemporary (1945–present) section and hadn't checked the Modern (1800–1945) or other sections. The other Monagasque rulers include François Grimaldi, Rainier I of Monaco, Lord of Cagnes, Honoré I, Lord of Monaco, Honoré III, Prince of Monaco. Sahaib (talk) 20:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Swap iJustine for El Rubius

The Web entertainers and internet personalities section does not have enough non-English speaking creators, the only one being Germán Garmendia. Rubius started his channel in 2006 and has over 40 million subscribers on his main channel and 12 million on his second channel. He also has one of the most-followed Twitch channels in the world. iJustine does not seem to have as much long-term significance being known for the 2007 video 300-page iPhone bill which may have been notable at the time but I doubt that many would recall it. Sahaib (talk) 20:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

1. I wouldn't be opposed to removing iJustine (her main notability is that she was a pioneer in lifecasting and live streaming in general but her impact hasn't really stood the test of time). But I would be opposed to adding El Rubius. I feel like Youtuber subscriber and Twitch follower counts don't mean much for vitality. When you look at the List of most-subscribed YouTube channels and List of most-followed Twitch channels, I guarantee you that there will be many, many names on there you won't recognize at all no matter how terminally online you are. In fact, there are two Spanish Twitch streamers who are ahead of El Rubius (AuronPlay and Ibai Llanos). It doesn't make sense to add him when we recently rejected IShowSpeed who truly has an international audience and attracts massive crowds that, as two examples, have shut down entire malls in Malaysia [7] and blocked off entire streets in Norway [8]. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

   Just a small correction, El Rubius and other Spanish-speaking YouTubers do have an international audience, there are 21 countries that have Spanish as an official language so I would say that is quite international, plus you might not recognize them because of cisbias, but they are pretty well-known. The Blue Rider 15:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

   That's true but I still cannot justify adding streamers like this who have virtually no presence outside of the Spanish-speaking world (even factoring in sysbias, you can reason this out by the fact that he doesn't offer any content in languages outside Spanish nor does he provide closed captioning in other languages) when we quickly reject other streamers who can draw insane crowds no matter what country they go to.

   In general, I would also say content creation on Youtube/Twitch is a finicky business. It is very easy for your audience to outgrow you as they age or you yourself to outgrow what you do as you burn out/realize you've grown out of what made you famous and want to make an unpopular pivot. People who were considered superstars just a decade ago are no longer relevant (an easy example is the aforementioned Germán Garmendia). Streamers or creators can take over the Internet for a couple of years and make it seem like they're never going to drop off in relevance but it is very rare to find content creators whose relevance has stood the test of time.

   This is not to say that El Rubius has been affected by this. It seems like he is still relevant today. But my point is that we need to hold Youtube content creators to a higher standard. If we judged VA5 based on popularity/most followers/most subscribers, this list would be 80% content creators most of us would have never heard of before. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

New religious movement figures cleanup

Remove Joseph Kibweteere  5

Probably listed because he was leader of the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, responsible for one of the largest ever mass suicides, but he doesn't seem to be that vital in his own right, outside of the group. I don't even know if the group itself would be vital.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Stephen McNallen  5 for Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson

Stephen McNallen is an influential figure in white supremacist Norse neopaganism, which is societally marginal and not even dominant among white supremacists. Sveinbjoern founded the Ásatrúarfélagið, which is the largest neopagan religious movement in the world in proportion to the number of followers in its country of origin, with over 1% of the Icelandic population being Asatru, which I think easily places him among the most influential Neopagan religious figures.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Support removal, oppose addition. Ásatrúarfélagið has under 6000 followers. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

   That's over 1% of the Icelandic population, which makes it the only country in the world where a form of neopaganism is practiced by a significant proportion of the population. In addition, both of the other neopagan figures listed are Wiccan, and removing alone would leave the list without any form of reconstructionist religion, which is arguably one of the most significant recent religious phenomena. The Icelandic Asatru Association is also more broadly influential over Heathenry (new religious movement)  5 as a whole, regardless of the low population of Iceland itself limiting its membership numbers. Iostn (talk) 19:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Yahweh ben Yahweh for Black Hebrew Israelites

An obscure figures compared to the movement he represented, which isn't listed. Add Black Hebrew Israelites to "new religious movements" under philosophy and religion.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ira Losco

Losco is probably the only Maltese musician that could make the list (though I believe Aidan who has been dominating the charts in Malta for the last 5 years could make it in the future). She has competed in Eurovision twice (the first time coming 2nd), won numerous awards and is frequently described as Malta's queen of pop. She would probably go in the Popular music: General section as she almost exclusively sings in English (one of the official languages of Malta). Sahaib (talk) 13:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Politician/leader changes

As it stands there are plenty of major omissions of major figures on the politicians and leaders section, in favour of more questionable entries and attempts to cover as many as independent states (including microstates) as possible, even at the expense of important leaders from elsewhere. Likely the section quota needs to be increased anyway, but even until then there's a lot of potential improvement to be made.

Swap Milton Cato  5 for Edward Seaga

Prime minister for under five years of a country with a population of ~100k (presumably even lower when he was leader) versus someone who was a leading figure in Jamaican politics for over 30 years, prime minister for nine, and as a record label owner, was influential in developing Jamaica's cultural power overseas. Arguably served as the foil to Michael Manley  5.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removing Milton Cato because he was very important to Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and is seemingly part of the reason they are a separate country. Neutral on adding Seaga. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Lyudvig Chibirov  5 for Ebrahim Raisi

Stub article on the president of a barely recognized state with a population of ~50k vs the president of Iran, with a population of nearly 90 million at what has been a time of major international crisis directly involving the country.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support both per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Sabah Al-Salim Al-Sabah  5 for Ismail Haniyeh

Head of state of Kuwait (a small country) for a decently long length of time, but no indication that he was that internationally important vs the recently killed leader of Hamas  5

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Al-Sabah's article does not indicate any lasting importance, while Haniyeh was definitely an important politician. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

   Although, I feel like Yahya Sinwar would be more important to include, and I don't think Hamas is important enough for two politicians. Support for now, but I would rather add Sinwar than Haniyeh. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

   Haniyeh was in a more senior poistion, Sinwar I think was more strongly linked to the October 7 attack/current war specifically to my knowledge Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Janet Jagan  5 for Gabriel Boric

Prime Minister of Guyana (pop ~800k) for ~9 months, and president for less than two, vs the current President of one of the most most developed countries in South America, coming to power on a platform of constitutional reform. Also note that Guyana, despite its low population, has five different politicians listed.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Ati George Sokomanu  5 for B. J. Habibie

First (ceremonial) president of Vanuatu, with a population of 300,000 and very little international influence. I wasn't sure wherever to nominate him or Walter Lini  5 initially, but Lini seems more important and the presidency is described as "mostly ceremonial". Habibie served as president for only a short period of time, but in one of the world's most populous countries (Indonesia), and was reponsible for administring over the end of the 30 year long New Order (Indonesia)  5, giving him extra significance.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Tosiwo Nakayama  5 for Tomiichi Murayama

First president of a country with a population of ~100k (and at the time even lower) versus one of Japan's only non-LDP prime minister's since the 1950s, and the first one to ever formally address Japan's imperialist past. While he had a short term of office, that is common for Japanese prime ministers and also I decided to include him over Morihiro Hosokawa for the time being as he seems ultimately more impactful and better remembered.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Mohammad-Javad Bahonar  5 for Hassan Nasrallah

A guy who was prime minister for not even a month vs the just killed long-time leader of Hezbollah  5

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Carlos Camacho  5 for Guy Verhofstadt

First elected governor of Guam is reasonably important on a local level, but he was only in power for 5.5 years total and Guam isn't even an independent country, and only has a population of ~170k. There are much more populous US states we have no politicians from.

As for Guy Verhofstadt, we have no post-WW2 prime ministers from Belgium for some reason (only monarchs) despite it being an influential European country, and he is possibly one of the most internationally influential ones, and is now one of the biggest figures in the administration of the European Union.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson  5 for Davíð Oddsson

Of the three Icelandic figures listed, all are presidents, which isn't the actual head of government, as opposed to the prime minister. Both of the others have pretty good claims to vitality despite Iceland's low population, with Sveinn Björnsson  5 being the first president, and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir  5 the first elected female president in the world. Ólafur doesn't really have much other than serving a long time. Davíð Oddsson, the longest serving PM, makes a lot more sense as someone who was largely responsible for Iceland's neoliberal reforms, which later contributed to the Icelandic financial crisis.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Lu Wei (politician)  5 for Wang Huning

Some guy who seems to be mostly well-known for being convicted of corruption vs the "Grey Eminence of the CCP"

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap John Swan (Bermudian politician)  5 for Nayib Bukele

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Premier (albeit for a long time) of a non-independent overseas territory with a population of ~60k vs one of the most notorious leaders of Central America today

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Viktor Zubkov  5 for Sergey Lavrov

A Putin loyalist who filled the office of Prime Minister (which is not the most powerful position in Russia) for a short length of time vs the "the longest-serving foreign minister since the Tsarist era" (20 years). ALso notorious for his role in the Russo-Ukrainian War  5.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support; Lavrov has been a household in Russian diplomacy during the Putin era. Idiosincrático (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Matsutarō Shōriki  5 for Kakuei Tanaka

I'm not sure why Shoriki is listed, his political importance seems to be in becoming the first chairman of the Japanese Atomic Energy Commission, but it seems his business activities are of more importance, but he isn't listed there, and they don't really seem important on an international level (outside of Japan) to list, even if he was relatively influential. Tanaka, OTOH, outside of being prime minister of Japan for 2.5 years, was for a longtime one of the most influyential figures of the Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)  5, Japan's dominant political party, nicknamed the "shadow shogun".

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Chantharath  5 for Lê Duẩn

Chantharath was the king of a little-known Thai vassal state in South East Asia during the 19th century, and his article is a stub with no indication of lasting influence. Lê Duẩn was one of the most important political figures in post-colonial Vietnam, being the successor to Ho Chi Minh  4 and the first leader of a unified Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam War  4.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Hans Geiger

"He is best known as the co-inventor of the detector component of the Geiger counter and for the Geiger–Marsden experiment which discovered the atomic nucleus".

Support

1. As nominator. To physicists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Notable omission Aurangzebra (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Carl Zeiss

One of the most prominent scientific instrument manufacturers in history. Founded Carl Zeiss AG in 1846.

Support

1. As nominator. To businesspeople. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Sure, could probably work under businesspeople or inventors. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jean-Baptiste de La Salle

French priest and educational reformer. Very well known across the Catholic world for his role in the development of modern schooling systems. See: Lasallian educational institutions.

Support

1. As nominator. To educators. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Good find, and we're technically still not at the quota for Social scientists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Journalist removals

Removals for an over-quota VA section. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Publishers and editors removals

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This subsection is clogged with publishers and editors who, in comparison to others listed, lack significance and/or influence to warrant making their articles vital. I'm confident that beyond this list, there are more that can be removed. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Margaretha van Bancken
2. Thomas Barnes (journalist)
3. C. L. Knight
4. Arthur Fraser Walter
5. Michael Jackson (journalist)
6. James McClatchy
7. Eugene M. O'Neill
8. John Thadeus Delane
9. Edward Rosewater
10. Guglielmo Stefani

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 11:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. Kevinishere15 (talk) 07:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Ian Ross (newsreader)  5 from Broadcast journalists, presenters and commentators

Notable in Australian media, though lacks significant impact/recognition to warrant making VA. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 11:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, section is over quota, plus recent English-language figures are probably over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Frank Peters Jr. from Critics

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Known for winning the 1972 Pulitzer Prize for Criticism, but nothing suggests him being really noteworthy/influential in his field. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 11:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands for Mark Rutte

It would make more sense as the Dutch government website states that "in the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited". Sahaib (talk) 15:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

1. Oppose swap (but support add); Willem-Alexander is still notable as a figurehead and we have Elizabeth II  4 as VA4. In general though the politician/leader section, at least for contemporary figures, is overall very lacking and Mark Rutte, the longest-serving Dutch Prime Minister, should definitely be listed. Iostn (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Hal Lindsey  5

Recently moved from authors to religious leaders. With only seven interwikis, I question whether he belongs at VA at all _pbp 00:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 00:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. He was (/is?) really popular in the Evangelical Christian sphere, but I don't think he has had wider lasting impact. Makkool (talk) 11:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Strong support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add yoga teachers

Yoga teachers are currently a major omission. I suggest we could add these to Miscellaneous/Health and fitness, if they get enought support. Miscellaneous is under-quota, so we could add more than one of these.

Add B. K. S. Iyengar

Described in the article that he is "credited with popularizing yoga, first in India and then around the world". Very influential in establishing yoga as a popular form of exercise, free from its roots in Indian philosphy.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makes sense. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Not sure about the others, but this guy seems vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Strong support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add K. Pattabhi Jois

Developer of ashtanga yoga. Along with Iyengar, one of the most instrumental people establishing modern yoga as exercise.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Yogi Bhajan

Introduced kundalini yoga to the West. Also a influential spiritual teacher and entrepreneur.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Bikram Choudhury

Controversial Indian-American yoga teacher, the inventor of hot yoga.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Musician removals

Remove Bai Hong  5, Gong Qiuxia  5, Wu Yingyin  5, and Yao Lee  5

Located in Popular music > Non-English language popular music > Chinese languages (Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese). All 1930s-40s Chinese popular music singers that were part of the Seven Great Singing Stars; all seven are currently VA which is pretty unnecessary and a few of the lesser remembered singers can be removed.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Teng Yu-hsien  5 from Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople

Prominent in Taiwanese folk music. This, however, is very niche and his influence seems to be minimal outside of Taiwan.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add dieting figures

Some well-known people related to dieting and healthy eating are missing from the list. Add to section Miscellaneous/Health and fitness.

Add William Banting

First person to "popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting the intake of carbohydrates" like starch and sugar. His influence is evident that his name became a verb to mean losing weight, which still exists in Swedish.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support, but good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Michio Kushi

Introduced the macrobiotic diet to the West.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Walter Willett

Known for promoting the Mediterranean diet. The article cites The Boston Globe that he is "world's most influential nutritionist".

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ann Wigmore

First to introudce the idea of a raw food diet in the US.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Currently only in 4 other languages. Sahaib (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Nayib Bukele

Incumbent President of El Salvador. Four of his seven most recent predecessors (José Napoleón Duarte  5, Alfredo Cristiani  5, Mauricio Funes  5, Salvador Sánchez Cerén  5) are listed as vital, and Bukele has received considerably more foreign news coverage during his presidency than his predecessors. Article itself consistently receives over 3,000 daily views and currently has 62 interlanguage links.

Support

1. As nominator. To Politicians and leaders. PizzaKing13 (¡Hablame!) 🍕👑 19:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Even if he were to suddenly decline, he's at least as noteworthy as any of his contemporary-era predecessors. He's the first Central American person a lot of people would name. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Made El Salvador the first state to accept Bitcoin as legal tender, started his own governing philosophy with Bukelism, and has his own full blown article series. Definitely a good candidate. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per everyone else. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
5. Support, somehow heard of him, despite not knowing much about him plus he has served for a relatively long period of time. Sahaib (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
6. Easy support for its often controversial but impactful policies such as Salvadoran gang crackdown that already has been followed by other Central America countries such as the Honduran gang crackdown. The Blue Rider 20:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

@User:PizzaKing13 @User:Tabu Makiadi @User:Aurangzebra @User:Kevinishere15 @User:Sahaib Apologies for pinging, but I already nominated swapping John Swan (Bermudian politician)  5 for him here (while trying to improve the politician section in general) Iostn (talk) 22:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Iostn: Since your proposal has not yet been voted on, and this one has received four additional votes, I would recommend closing the section you made and making a new removal proposal for Swan. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Donald Barthelme  5

The Writers page is still well over the quota, so some cuts are needed. Only a few of his works have articles, and none of those articles have any interwikis. This author has no sourced claim to any major lasting influence, and he only won a few awards, which we don't list every winner of. I do not see any reason to keep him on the list.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Deferring to nom on this one, section is over quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Lesya Ukrainka

One writer addition for a change. The article calls her "one of Ukrainian literature's foremost writers"

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. 75 interwikis, High-Importance to WikiProject Russia and Top-Importance to WikiProject Ukraine. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nicolas Bourbaki

We have many collectives and groups in music and visual arts, so I think it's reasonable to add the most well-known collective in all of mathematics.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Strong support, can second that Bourbaki is a big deal, and not just in France. Good catch (and out-of-the-box thinking on the super-group point). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tucker Max

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wrote a couple books that sold well, but he isn't really that iconic or influential of an author. The page this is on is still over quota, and Max is not among the most important authors in the country. Only seven interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 22:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Tanni Grey-Thompson

After seeing her featured in the BBC's Icons documentary series, I think that she is a vital Paralympian, campaigner and even a Dame. Though she is not a finalist for her category, she is in the four chosen nominees.

Support

1. As nominator. CrisBalboa1 (talk) 01:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Thin Lizzy  5 and/or The Pogues  5

Both these bands stick out like sore thumbs in their respective groups and they feel like they were just added to hit some sort of geographical diversity quota but I'm not sure Ireland is the best representative for that (and at least in the hard rock category, we have 1 Brazilian and 3 Scandinavian bands).

Thin Lizzy is, for most intents and purposes, a "one-hit wonder" band with The Boys are Back in Town. According to Spotify, this track has almost 5x more plays over their next most popular one. Arguably their second most famous track, Whiskey in the Jar, is a cover of an Irish folk song and not even the most popular cover (that honor would go to Metallica's version which has 5x more plays on Spotify and won a Grammy). Obviously, number of streams isn't the only factor to determine notability; we include groups like Death (metal band)  5, for example, whose 800,000 monthly listeners pales in comparison to Thin Lizzy's 3.5 millions. But at least Death is a pioneer in the fairly influential death metal subgenre. Thin Lizzy isn't really a pioneer in anything, none of their commercial numbers are that impressive (no platinum certifications in Ireland, the UK, or the US across any of their studio albums), and they haven't achieved much critical success as evidenced by their album ratings on RateYourMusic. Their legacy section indicates that they were respected and influential to some of their peers but this is also the case for a wide variety of other bands we don't list.

The Pogues are an Irish punk band that seem to be even less notable than Thin Lizzy. Low Spotify streaming numbers (1.5 million listeners a month), no particularly famous tracks besides a low-tier Christmas song, no major commercial or critical success, and no legacy section on their article. Their lede states that they reinvigorated traditional Irish music but I don't think that by itself is adequate for VA5 contention.

Maybe this is American bias but I don't think these groups are that influential but maybe one of our more UK/Ireland-leaning contributors can chime in here. Either way, even within Ireland, I think there are better contenders such as The Cranberries whose 69 interwikis are almost as much as The Pogues and Thin Lizzy combined. They are also Top-Importance in Irish music and have 3 songs that have more Spotify streams than the most-streamed Thin Lizzy or The Pogues song. They were also one of the best-selling alternative acts of the 1990s globally. I would not vote to add them in but this is just an example of how Thin Lizzy/The Pogues aren't even the most influential groups within the niche of Irish rock.

As a weak swap suggestion for the Hard Rock category, I'd support Anthrax (band) who are considered one of the Big 4 of thrash metal. We list the other 3 (Metallica  5, Slayer  5, and Megadeth  5). I am also fine with this just being a removal proposal. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom, remove both Aurangzebra (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support a swap between The Pogues and Anthrax. Weak keep Thin Lizzy. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support both per nom. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Anthrax. I think they're less vital than both Thin Lizzy or The Pogues. We won't need to add them only to complete the big four of thrash metal. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Anthony Fantano  5

There are far better critics we haven't listed. How is he more vital than other YouTubers we haven't listed like Marques Brownlee?

Support

1. 49p (talk) 18:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
3. -1ctinus📝🗨 19:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I wouldn't compare Fantano with other YouTubers. As a modern music critic he's vital for being an influential trend-setter. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Makkool. Not really comparable to other YouTubers. λ NegativeMP1 21:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

US presidents

Are American presidents over represented? We currently list all but two of them (who died after less then a year in office) and if Kamala Harris  5 wins (go vote) shes already listed as vital. Do you honestly belive that 44 (potentially 45) are individually one of the most important people in human history? Now I'm just posing this question as if it were detirmed that the list should be slimmed down I haven't the slightest clue where to begin. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

There has been consensus that not all US presidents are vital and we already removed two of them as you mentioned. Do take in mind that the US has been the hegemonic global power since the fall of the Soviet Union and a great power since the 1890s. The Blue Rider 03:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe? Propose removals of the ones you think could go. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The politicians and leaders list is large enough to contain most leaders of the Great Powers. Considering all the pop figures and activists we have at VA5, I'm perfectly fine with there being the number of political leaders, and the number of American political leaders, that there are. I'm also bothered that American political leaders has gotten a ton of scrutiny compared to other sections of VA bios that contain more questionable adds and/or are more biased percentagewise in favor of the US. _pbp 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Prepose the removal of those pop figures and activists then. People recognize the U.S. presidents, but often times I think are not sure about less widely known people that are extremely vital in a niche area. Someone who doesn't know much about physics might not know who James Clerk Maxwell, but not feel comfortable proposing something involving him because they don't know much about physics. The U.S. presidents are something many people know enough about to feel comfortable discussing. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• There are roughly 15,000 people on the vital articles list (which, BTW, is considerably more biographies than you find in most print encyclopedias). About 1% are American politicians and about 0.3% of them are U.S. presidents. The U.S., China and the U.K. each have over 100 politicians on the list, and if you include its predecessors (Rome, Papal States, Savoy, Milan, etc), Italy does too. France has 98. The scope of this list is so vast that including 43-44 presidents (Cleveland served twice, Trump possibly could but I hope not) instead of 33-34 is infinitesimal. _pbp 19:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Charles Bronson

He's pretty much important to American Western films and one of the most recognized actors at a point. How has he not been added?

Support

1. 49p (talk) 02:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Navin Ramgoolam

He recently won the 2024 Mauritian general election and was previously prime minister of Mauritius from 1995–2000 and 2005–2014. His father Seewoosagur Ramgoolam is currently listed as a vital article. Sahaib (talk) 14:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Military & Revolutionary Proposals

Hi there, I don't normally participate in People proposals, but I saw the section for Military / Rebel biographies was still about 25 shy of the quota. I thought I could help brainstorm. Since we're below quota too, I'll go ahead and bundle them. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Add 5 Ancient Chinese Generals

I know we already have decent coverage of Ancient Chinese generals, but here are 5 more from the Warring States period. In case there's only partial support, I've applied my own ordering, but feel free to prioritize them differently:

1. Wang Jian (Qin), led the Qin army under Qin Shi Huang to unify China
2. Lian Po, successfully defended Zhao for most of the decisive Battle of Changping; the Qin influence campaign to replace him is also a notable story
3. Bai Qi, ultimately won the Battle of Changping for Qin
4. Li Mu, helped Zhao hold out successfully after its losses at Changping
5. Zhao Kuo, lost the Battle of Changping for Zhao

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 05:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 early modern naval figures

2 of them are Ottoman, and although we already list Piri Reis and Hayreddin Barbarossa, I figure the Ottomans were around long enough to justify a couple more:

• Kemal Reis, admiral and actually uncle of Piri Reis
• Murat Reis the Elder, another admiral
• Pier Gerlofs Donia (a.k.a. Grutte Pier), Dutch (Frisian) rebel / pirate against the Habsburgs

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Pier Gerlofs Donia Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 relevant to the early Mughals

All 3 would be in the Early Modern period:

• Mustafa Rumi, Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped introduce musketeers to the Mughal army
• Ustad Ali Quli, another Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped modernize Mughal artillery
• Pir Roshan, Pashtun sufi leader that started a long resistance to Mughal influence

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Pir Roshan only Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi, stubs with low pageviews and interwikis (zero in the case of the former) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   That's fair, and that neither even has a Turkish interwiki is a negative in my mind. That said, since we're still under quota in this section, do you think you'd be willing to give these a chance for now just to see if anyone can expand them? There are citations, their historical influence is noteworthy, and they give us good non-Western and pre-1800s coverage. I normally don't discuss votes, but while I won't rehash my comments above, I don't like the idea of deciding just on current metrics; they can sift out a lot of chaff, but sometimes they just reflect a lack of interest to date (by readers or editors). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Add 2 pre-modern assassins

These both can help fill out some older time periods, and both actually have pop-culture connections too:

• Jing Ke, ancient, attempted to assassinate Qin Shi Huang at the close of the Chinese Warring States period; actually the basis of the movie Hero with Jet Li
• Rashid ad-Din Sinan, medieval, probably most famous leader of the Syrian Hashashin. Also a political or religious leader, but technically still under the leadership in Alamut, and should work as Military too. Along with Hassan-i Sabbah, arguably the most associated with the nickname "Old Man of the Mountain", and the basis for some of the Assassin's Creed video game.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but these belong under Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Assassination instead. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   Agree completely about Jing Ke if assassins are now under Miscellaneous. I honestly wasn't sure about ad-Din Sinan though because he's a capital "A" assassin. It seemed fitting to list them together, but while the Hashashin were notorious for assassinations, they did have a long-lasting state with population and an economy. So if not here, maybe he belongs more under either Religious or Political figures? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 Irish republicans

All 20th century and political figures too, but they served as military Chiefs of Staff for the IRA at significant points or over long periods of time. I guess they could all go under Rebels or Military figures:

• Richard Mulcahy, fought in the Easter Rising, second-in-command under Michael Collins, and later Minister of Defence for the pro-Treaty government in the Irish Civil War.
• Moss Twomey, longest-serving Chief of Staff for the IRA in the 1920s and 30s after its first split from the Irish government.
• Cathal Goulding, long involvement with reviving the IRA after WWII, served as Chief of Staff for most of the 1960s, and a major influence in shifting political alignments of the IRA and associated parties.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Moss Twomey is not in any other languages, neutral on the other two. Sahaib (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Moss Twomey and Cathal Goulding (also note the latter led the Official IRA, the less active IRA splinter during the Troubles) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   Just to add some context, you're right that Goulding's faction largely sat out the Troubles and therefore isn't as notable. It seems like Goulding was important to reviving the IRA before that split too though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Add 3 Korean commanders

Funny enough, while we list American and Chinese generals, we don't list any Chiefs of Staff for Korean forces on either side of the Korean war. It looks like the following 3 are all good candidates:

• Chung Il-kwon, appointed right after the start of the war, helped regroup the South Koreans and also would have helped coordinate the Battle of Inchon.
• Paik Sun-yup, another successful South Korean general and appointed Chief of Staff for the last part of the Korean War.
• Choe Yong-gon (official), overall commander of North Korean forces for the duration of the Korean War.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 for the Bangladesh Liberation War

We list others as leaders, but we currently don't include:

• Sam Manekshaw, Chief of Staff for the Indian Army and responsible for the overall strategy behind Indian victory.
• Tikka Khan, actual Pakistani theater commander and governor in Bangladesh, significantly responsible for Operation Searchlight.
• K. M. Shafiullah, sector commander (including the capital city of Dhaka) during the war and appointed to Army Chief of Staff for the new military shortly after independence.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Decline

Add 3 from the Iran-Iraq War

Last batch, but this should bring the section to about 900:

• Adnan Khayr Allah, Iraqi Minister of Defence throughout the Iran-Iraq War.
• Mohsen Rezaee, also a politician, but commanded the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran) for most of the war; also arguably its first regular commander and organized it into a genuine military force.
• Ali Sayad Shirazi, commander of Iran's conventional ground army (Artesh) for most of the war.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Decline

1. Adnan Khayr Allah, a ssomeone who is most well-knwon as a Minister of Defence (i.e. a cabinet member) would normally go under politicians, in fact Mohsen Rezaee might also belong there as someone who is seemingly more well-known as a political candidate Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   I agree both are kind of borderline, but the way I see it, even if he's in a cabinet-style organization and didn't start out as a soldier, Khayrallah is primarily known for commanding a military. Razaee is arguably even more borderline, but I think he's still known more for his military accomplishments than bureaucratic ones, plus he started his career as a rebel. And in elections, I think he mostly appeals to conservatives or Realpolitik voters, again because of his military accomplishments. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Remove Maureen Dowd  5

NYT columnist. Seems to be best known for covering the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, but the article does not mention her. 6 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. That is a good point. Sahaib (talk) 07:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with Matt Drudge Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Support, Writers & Journalists is over quota and we should probably prioritize recent figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Matt Drudge

Related to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, we don't yet list Matt Drudge, who founded the site Drudge Report, where the news of the scandal first broke out. I propose to swap Dowd with him. Drudge is a pioneer in web journalism, mentored Andrew Breitbart of breitbart.com and influenced conservative alternative news media on the Internet. Add to Web journalists under Writers and journalists.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Henri Fayol

19th-century French management theorist best known for developing a systematic approach to administration. He's regarded as one of the two founders of Scientific management  5 along with Frederick Winslow Taylor  5.

Support

1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Business theorists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, Social scientists is still under quota, and this is probably the sort of topic Lv 5 is perfect for (a bit niche but still notable). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Gustave Le Bon

Psychologist and sociologist best known for his theories on the psychological dynamics of crowds, which have been influential in fields such as sociology and political science and also in the development of psychoanalysis.

Support

1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Psychologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, Social scientists is still under quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Chevy Chase  5

While he was big in the 70s and 80s for National Lampoon's Vacation and Saturday Night Live  5 he hasn't really done anything major outside of that other than maybe Community (TV series)

Support

1. As nomQuestions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 17:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support but there are a lot of other comedians that gotta go too. _pbp 20:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Has left a lasting impact over two decades starring in several Hollywood movies. One of the legendary early cast members of SNL. Seth Rogen  5 was kept in a remove-proposal, and Chevy Chase is a comedian of equal standing. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

   While he was an OG SNL cast member he was only on for one and half seasons. As for his movie career while he did have several major roles, I would say very many of them were particularly influential Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 16:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

2. Since we're removing a bunch of comedians below, I see no reason to remove this pretty popular one. Kevinishere15 (talk) 05:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Agnez Mo

I know we have been on a remove celebrities streak recently (which I am fine with), but we can make room for Mo, who is arguably the biggest pop star in the world's fourth-largest country. See, for example, List of awards and nominations received by Agnez Mo

Support

1. As nom. To non English language musicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makes sense Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Comedian removals

A few months ago, I did a cleanup/purge of television hosts, which was bloated in favor of Americans, Brits and Australians. Now I must do the same with comedians. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Eliminate film/TV/standup distinction

There are just too many artists who transcend those distinctions for them to be meaningful. Examples:

• Bob Newhart is listed under standup even though he had several television shows
• Chevy Chase, Chris Rock and Will Ferrell (and others) are listed under films even though they were also SNL cast members
• Rodney Dangerfield is listed under films despite having a long standup career

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, it's arbitrary and doesn't exist on Level 4. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Does feel rather arbitrary Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 14:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose mainly because a section with 203 articles is large and unwieldy and generally inaccessible to editors and casual readers alike. This same problem exists in the music section (many of the artists listed under Rock such as The Beatles  3 also have Pop specified as a genre and vice versa, many of the artists listed under Hip Hop/Rap can be listed either under Pop or R&B such as Drake who has all 3 listed as genres etc.) but I think people don't mind those subdivisions because the alternative would be a massive blob. The same problem on a smaller scale happens here. That being said, I do think the classification was done poorly e.g. I would put Rodney Dangerfield in the standup category. However, I find 80% of these classifications accurate as to the main cause of their vitality. We make judgment calls everywhere else on VA5, I don't see why we can't here. Aurangzebra (talk) 09:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

   1. 203 comedians at VA5 is way too many; right size would be about half that
   2. There are other ways to organize comedians other than standup/TV/movies, such as by nationality or time period.

   _pbp 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Carrot Top

IDK if this guy was ever an A-lister _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. nom. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose, he has a lot more interwikis than anyone else on this list and anecdotally he's the only one I've heard of. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Irwin Corey

Anybody ever heard of this guy? Due to being blacklisted, he was in obscurity. < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Doesn't seem to have left a lasting impact Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. I question how some of these people even made it on to the list. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Ken Dodd

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Alan King

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Max Miller (comedian)

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 10 interwikis. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Seems to have been pretty important for his time Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. "considered to be one of the greatest stand-up comedians of his generation", reduces US bias Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Remove Nichols and May

Mike Nichols and Elaine May are both already listed (Nichols as a director, May as a comedian). The comedy pairing has TWO interwikis. May has 31, Nichols has 55. This is one of the instances where the individuals are more notable than the pairing. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Probably redundant Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Patrice O'Neal

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 15 interwikis. Only released a single album _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Roy Rene

Just two interwikis. TWO. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Only really relevant in Australia Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Remove Mort Sahl

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Jerry Van Dyke

Primarily had supporting roles _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove George Wallace (Australian comedian)

Just two interwikis. TWO. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Also note that pageviews are very low Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Henny Youngman

"Take my wife, please" might be VA5 but he himself...IDK. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Will Hay

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Only a little over 3000 page views Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 23:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Fred Allen

If we're removing Chevy Chase, IDK how he survives. 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Arthur Askey

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Imogene Coca

< 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Tommy Cooper

20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Lasting (and current) influence, as seen under "legacy and honours" Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per above, reduces US bias Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Charles Correll

Amos 'n' Andy is VA5 but IDK if he is. < 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Freeman Gosden

Amos 'n' Andy is VA5 but IDK if he is. < 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Dashan

< 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Seems important re: Chinese comedy Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per above, pioneer of stand-up in China Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Bob Crane

20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Fry and Laurie

Fry and Laurie are themselves listed. The pairing only has 2 interwikis, and Laurie especially is known for independent work rather than the pairiing. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Redundant Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Rich Little

10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Dick Martin

Not independently notable of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, already at VA5 _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Dan Rowan

Not independently notable of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, already at VA5 _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Garry McDonald

< 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Morecambe and Wise

Just three interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Highly influential in the UK, and by the looks of it the low number of interwikis is due to many Wikipedias having articles on them as individuals instead: Eric Morecambe and Ernie Wise both have more, and I don't think they would be individually vital on their own Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

   Wise has 10 interwikis and Morecambe 16, neither of which is much for a celeb _pbp 20:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

2. per above, "the best loved British double-act" Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Freddie Prinze

<20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Michael Richards

Mostly known as a supporting actor. His most famous appearances were on Seinfeld, which is VA5, as are Jerry Seinfeld and Julia Louis-Dreyfus. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. weak support Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Harry Secombe

10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Danny Thomas

Exactly 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Victoria Wood

<20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Ralph Gonsalves

Per the article, he is currently the longest-serving democratically-elected state leader having been prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines since 2001. He has also twice served as chairman of the Caribbean Community. Sahaib (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Added for nom Sahaib. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Aulus Cornelius Cossus  5

Apparently notable for receiving the Spolia opima (a rare military honour from the early Roman period), but this was while Rome was still comparatively small, and there isn't much pointing to him being that well-remembered.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. I could see deciding he's not vital down the road, but with Military figures still hanging below quota (and no plans to adjust the quota yet), I would rather defer until we have a full section to compare against. I'm not a Classicist either, but he may actually be a big deal to Roman history buffs; I think a lot of the Early Republican history gets glossed over in pop culture today, especially compared to the Early Empire. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Daniel Radcliffe  5

Most notable as a child actor in Harry Potter  4 but after that? I will note that the page has both an insanely high amount of interwikis (98) and page views (200k+), would support a suitable swap

Support

1. As nom. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her)

Oppose

1. Yes, one major role, but it was a very iconic one, if we want to lower the number of actors, surely there are better candidates. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure it was only one role, but it was for eight blockbuster movies running for over a decade. Idiosincrático (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Actors are quite bloated. There are plenty of guys of Radcliffe's caliber that ought to go _pbp 02:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)