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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3→Archive 5

Add View of the World from 9th Avenue

Not added 2-2. starship.paint (RUN) 13:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

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This is regarded as one of the greatest magazine covers of all-time. Represents watercolor/colored pencil artwork, making it unique art (for VA).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:33, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Regretful oppose. I quite like this magazine cover and probably discovered it through your work on its article, so thanks for that. However, IMO there's only room for one magazine cover at most at this level and if there were to be one this probably isn't it. I think the concept of even these rare cases of magazine covers being culturally significant is limited further to the U.S.; that ought also to be borne in mind. Cover art would be a better proposal I think. J947 † edits 06:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    @J947:, I am the author of another magazine cover that is already VA5.(see my User page header) VA5 has 26 works classified as other media in visual art (among the 302 specific works listed). Not sure how many are magazine covers. I am just nominating it to be the 27th other media. Not the first.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    That's the only other magazine cover. Not sure it makes it either tbh. J947 † edits 07:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    @J947:, I don't think we should be judging this based on manner of publication. Where does it rank in terms of either watercolor or colored pencil artwork? I imagine the other magazine cover is listed for its prominence as body art/body painting or else it would be listed in photographs. Even though the subject, Demi Moore (VA5), was photographed by Annie Leibovitz (VA5) for Vanity Fair (VA5), it is the art by Joanne Gair (VA5) that makes it VA. In this case, I am presenting one of the most prominent watercolor/colored pencil works in history. Note the very first work in photographs is a magazine cover. So there are probably other covers among the 34 photographs.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    Afghan Girl and V-J Day in Times Square as magazine covers are more vital. I'd vote for the later at VA4. Note that there are other photographs that have text saying things like published in numerous publications, including Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima and Raising a Flag over the Reichstag. There are also images from Associated Press and The New York Times that likely ran on or in magazines. This nom is not posted for its vitality as a magazine cover just as Demi's Birthday Suit is not prominent as a magazine cover or photograph.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    I am aware Georgia O'Keeffe (VA4) does a lot of watercolor, but they all seem to be redlinks. We should have a watercolor work. The one I am nominating also has colored pencil elements.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    As far as I can tell, nothing from Category:Watercolor paintings is at VA. The Flag (O'Keeffe painting) is listed in the category now as is this nominee after some advice from WP:WPVA. I don't know what from that category is most vital, but I don't think most compare to this nominee.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. No interwikis strongly suggest this is a niche (American?) concept that never broke out into the wider world. And I can't see this as particularly vital in the context of American history, either. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, did you see that I added a source that shows The Guardian views this as a well known artwork and an additional parody from Tel Aviv.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, I have also beefed up the inspiration section to add perspective. I don't know if this perspective helps put it in its place in American history. This image is quite famous. I was working at someone's residence yesterday who had it on their wall (and this is not the first time). The inspiration by the "Dean of American Cartoonists", John T. McCutcheon, didn't have the same virality, as far as I know. To me that comparison gives this more heft.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger I appreciate your work on this; I just keep having trouble seeing art that has no interwikis as vital. Daily page views at 139 are so-so. I am not strongly opposed but I just keep failing, Consider for example Stańczyk (painting) (my old GA). ~400 page views, 15 interwikis, and I have trouble seeing it as vital as well, because while it is important for Polish painting, we don't even have an article on Polish painting, and Polish art is not vital (perhaps it should be?). But do ping me if this gets enough supports that my vote is the only one stopping this and I'll reconsider rereading the arguments. Heck, maybe I'll even stub this for you on pl wiki one day :) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, are you aware this was nominated under the old consensus rules of 4 votes and 55% support required. Thus, 3-1 or even 3-2 would pass, which does mean if you reconsidered changing your vote to support, it would pass. I.e., if you change your vote now it would make it a pass. Also, if one more person votes oppose and you were to change to support it would pass.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger Quick question: do we have room under current quota for the section you'd like to add this too? I don't mind adding stuff if there is room for now. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    Arts in general are 3321/3300, visual arts are 497/500 and specific works of visual arts are 303/300. So it depends on what level you are looking at.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    All those quota numbers are within 1% of quota above or below. I don't think Arts is much of an issue here. With visual arts being 497/500, what is the propriety of moving quota around? History of art is 96/100, Concepts and forms is 98/100, and Specific works of visual art is 303/300.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    P.S. take a look at the external link I added to show its international influence.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    Regarding Stańczyk (painting), I would likely sit on the sideline and wait for more expert reviewers likely to understand its cultural significance, but would give a long look to a close vote. However, you would be under the new 4 support and 60% rules.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:27, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
Full disclosure: I was the page creator of this article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Bazaar

Added 7-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

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May have existed for over 5000 years, traditional and non-western topic, but not an obscure one, and still in existence today. Wouldn't be completely out of place if suggested at level 4.

Support
  1. As nom.  Carlwev  07:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Important type of marketplace for Middle East and North Africa. The Blue Rider 10:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. V5 at least. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 14:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. Definitely. J947 ‡ edits 06:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. Is also a possible Level 4. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
  7. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


Oppose
Discussion
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Add Gig economy

Added 4-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

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Gig economy got redirected after a month and a half in article space back in 2018. It redirected to Temporary work for over a year and a half and has spent the last 4 years redirected to Gig worker. I see no WP:AFD, WP:PROD or WP:CSD evidence. I have recreated it. Feel free to chip in on this article. It is an important topic that we should highlight for improvement, which is what VA is all about.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Instead of gig worker, I'll change my support above shortly accordingly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Important concept for modern society. The Blue Rider 10:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion
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Add Babylon 5 or Babylon 5 (franchise)

Added Babylon 5 4-1. starship.paint (RUN) 14:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

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It seems the TV section was compiled by folks who forgot sci-fi was and is a thing, except perhaps Star Trek. Arguably the second most important sci-fi series after Star Trek (although I am open to hear from Stargate fans, and I know The Expanse is a thing now). See Babylon_5#Influence_and_legacy: "Generally viewed as having "launched the new era of television CGI visual effects", Babylon 5 received multiple awards during its initial run, including two consecutive Hugo Awards for best dramatic presentation, and continues to regularly feature prominently in various polls and listings highlighting top-rated science fiction series."

Note that I am not proposing a swap right now, but I think this show is more influential (based on that section) than Jackass (franchise), Gunsmoke or Dragnet (franchise), for example, where corresponding sections on influence/legacy are much weaker if present at all.

And as I noted, I think we should vote on adding The Expanse (TV series) and Stargate as well. Feel free to start such votes and ping me (or explain to me how come those are missing from the V5 list).

Support
  1. Support as nom. Prefer adding B5 over the franchise article, as B5 is mostly famous for its show rather than the spin-off media, IMHO. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support But don't think it is as influential as Star Trek: The Original Series Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support Dawid2009 (talk) 19:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    Can User:Hawkeye7 and User:Dawid2009 clarify which one they are supporting.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
    Babylon 5. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose. We don't list Star Trek: The Original Series or Star Trek: The Next Generation and both of those series seem to be more culturally important than any of the series being suggested for addition. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
    I'd certainly support adding them. Much more influential (particulary TOS) than a lot of stuff we list (I fear, as I said, the TV show list was composed by someone biased against sci-fi...). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
    I would also support adding those two series. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:18, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
    @QuicoleJR But not B5? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
    Piotrus, I supported B5. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
    @QuicoleJR My bad, you are right. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 23:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
    @Rreagan007 Just a note that discussion to add those Star Trek show is now active a bit below this thread. Feel free to join it :) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:09, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
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Add Oceanian art

Added 3-1. starship.paint (RUN) 02:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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It seems like it should be obvious how this is vital. It is rated Top-Importance by the Oceania WikiProject.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 03:09, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Totalibe (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I'd rather see Tribal art added instead - it seems to be a broader concept. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:40, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add I Love New York

Added 3-2. starship.paint (RUN) 02:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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The logo has inspired "I ❤ ..." logos of every sort. Its influence is ubiquitous.

Support
  1. As nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:08, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. I agree it is a major popculture symbol. And on a side note, I think we need to change quotas by removing hundreds of entries from geography ("just cities" or such) to stuff like this (culture). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Culturally important with a long-lasting impact. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Inspiring "I ❤..." is not a significant feat for inclusion. The Blue Rider 14:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. The logo should not be at the same level as Manhattan, for one. J947 ‡ edits 02:26, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:J947, that is a bit misleading since New York City  3 and New York (state)  4 are the normal referents of the logo, with the latter as the official referent. Manhattan  5 is a rare sub-municipal level VA. It is also rarely regarded as New York County. Almost no one considers Manhattan (New York County) the referent of the logo.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    Also, I may be a bit confused about your logic. Your point may be that an subject about New York could not be on the same level as arguably the most important part of New York. By that logic smaller New York related subjects such as World Trade Center (1973–2001), Grand Central Terminal, Chrysler Building, Rockefeller Center should not be at the same level as the larger Manhattan.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    J947's never stated that these buildings and the logo are of the same importance, obviously that they think that this is not the case. The Blue Rider 09:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider and J947:, Well since I don't understand the logic of his statement about Manhattan since the slogan/logo is "I ❤ NY"/"I Love New York". Manhattan is not the referent. He might as well say the logo should not be at the same level as Grand Central Terminal, which is not the type of logic that I have seen at VA.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:38, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
  1. The thing is cities are actually vital for WP. City articles are the backbone to lots of information query types. A high percentage of links on WP are to cities (especially in infoboxes).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger That's technicality. English Wikipedia decided not to ilink dates, which are ilinked in some other wikis like Poland. Do you think each year should be vital? We do have articles about them (1918 etc.). The discussion of why we consider cities to be more vital than years could be fun. More seriously, we have articles on decades like the 1910s and centuries like 20th century, which are not vital either, the latter at least seems to be quite an overight regardless of other stuff we discuss here. But frankly, I think many decades, particularly from the last century or two, are much more vital than some cities that nobody but locals plus few geography fanatics have heard about. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    Right now, there is a discussion on Modern Era being listed at a very high level (I think 2). This makes me think some important centuries should be vital. I don't know how far back we would go before century differences become non-vital vs. eras, but I would guess at least a dozen centuries should be vital. Maybe we should analyze incoming links, pageviews and interwikis to figure out such a topic.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
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Add Arirang

Added 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

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This may be one of the biggest oversights for traditional musical works. This folk song is considered one of Korea's most important national symbols, is listed twice on the UNESCO intangible cultural heritage and has been referenced and recorded innumerable times both by Korean and overseas musicians.

Support
  1. As nom Totalibe (talk) 23:17, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:58, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Just the usual systemic bias issue. Sigh. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. J947 ‡ edits 02:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add the following sf topic

Based on Wikipedia:WikiProject Science Fiction/Popular pages, and controlling for some recentism. Top 200 entries analyzed for now - traditionally, listing stuff that IMHO should be vital, with rationales below. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Add Quantum Leap television series

Relatively influential TV show. "In 2004 and 2007, Quantum Leap was ranked number 15 and 19, respectively, on TV Guide's "Top Cult Shows Ever". Frankly, a good source to consult for more TV shows we should list - anything that's called cult is probably vital or at least merits a discussion. Also: "Along with 43 nominations, Quantum Leap received 17 awards" - including several Emmies, Golden Globes, etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion

Add What to Expect When You're Expecting

FAIL
1-3. The Blue Rider 01:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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This is an intergenerational classic.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose. The word classic is not mentioned there. There is no reception or legacy or impact or such sections. Only two interwikis suggest no impact outside English speaking word. Not seeing how this is vital, it's a notable book but that's about it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose - not sure about the international impact. Interwikis are few at 2, consider that fellow non-fiction book Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, which is not vital, has 17. starship.paint (RUN) 13:37, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Oppose, but would support the addition of Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. J947 ‡ edits 00:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Drastic changes to specific TV programs (Additions)

Add Bluey (2018 TV series)

ADDED
Two months since discussion opened, five votes. More than 55% support for addition. Article already added to list. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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The only show I tried to add. I want to go deeper on why I think this show should be add. First, this is an Australian show. If nothing else, the addition should help diversify the section a bit. More importantly however, this is a globally popular show with critical acclaim. As an example, this show made it on Rolling Stone's "Top 100 Sitcoms of All Time". Granted it's at ninety-six, but keep in mind that this show is made for preschoolers. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support as the one who re-added it. I agree with everything said above. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support. Bluey is immensely popular internationally. I have heard almost nothing but praise for it from new parents. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is already tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 13:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider: This show is Australian, not American. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:08, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
    Ops! Thanks for the head up. The Blue Rider 14:11, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Discuss

So it look likes it got re-added again. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:30, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

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Add Super Sentai (And possibly add Power Rangers as well)

Power Rangers is 4.5-0.5, added. Super Sentai is 2-3, not added. starship.paint (RUN) 05:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Since I moved tokusatsu to TV genres, the Japanese section is now down by one. In order to make up for it, I'm going to advocate adding the other show on Super Hero Time. Besides being the source for the Power Rangers, this is a multi-billion dollar franchise that has been on the air in some form since 1975. (I'm partly also advocating for Power Rangers. It might not be on air in some form as long as Super Sentai, but the 1993-franchise is also a multi-billion dollar one.) --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support adding Super Sentai as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support adding Power Rangers. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support, but I'd add Power Rangers first if possible, I think they are a more famous franchise/name. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support adding Power Rangers, but not Super Sentai. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support adding Power Rangers, not Super Sentai. One of these is much more influential. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Sailor Moon (TV series) (and possibly remove Sailor Moon (character) from Characters)

ADDED
Two months since discussion opened, last comment almost three weeks ago, six votes. Unanimous consensus for addition and against a swap. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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Now, I know that we already have the manga and the character in Arts, but hear me out. Along with Dragon Ball Z and Pokémon, Sailor Moon was one of the first anime many Americans watched, and there's enough differences between the show and the manga to warrant treating it as two separate things. (I know it's kind of hypocritical for me to advocate the Sailor Moon anime while also advocating for the removal of The Transformers show. Also, if you think that that's too many Sailor Moons, feel free to advocate removing the character.) --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support adding as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support swap addition. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:33, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support swap addition Series is far more vital than the character. Per Piotr below. Curbon7 (talk) 20:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support addition, oppose swap. The list is already too much US-centric, no need to remove what is still a popular anime character. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support addition, oppose swap. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
  6. Support, and oppose swap. --Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss

@Rreagan007 and Curbon7: Do you realize that if we remove that character, the list of superheroes we have will be compozed of about a dozen all-American comic book ones? We should not be 100% US-centric, I think. We need to add a few more non-American superheroes, not remove the only one who is there currently. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Struck after thinking about it for some time. Curbon7 (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
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Add Pop Idol

NOT ADDED
Two months since discussion opened, last comment almost two weeks ago, four votes. Less than 55% support for addition. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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Nomally, I would think we really only need one version of a show that has numerous variations, preferably the one that's been on the air the longest. However, there's one show that I will make an exception to: the original Pop Idol. Every time I see this show gets brought up, it's always in the content on how it's revolutionize television. American Idol might have lasted longer, but it was the original show that combined the game show genre with the drama of reality television. (This is not a partial swap request; American Idol is still a vital article.) --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support I'd argue its influence more than compensates for its lifespan. Totalibe (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose. A show that only lasted 2 seasons just doesn't quite cut it. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:25, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per Rreagan007. — The Blue Rider 19:30, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Top of the Pops

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Now here's a show that I'm frankly shocked was never added was at any point. This show ran for forty-two years, and it got some memorable performances attached to it. It also... brought Jimmy Savile to national prominence. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:33, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support per nom --Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. support adding. Influential show. Lorax (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add American Bandstand (and possibly add Soul Train as well)

ADDED
Discussion opened two months ago, last comment a week ago, five votes. More than 55% support for addition. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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(Just to let you know, the last five-ish addition requests are going to be American shows, so feel free to reject them on that alone.) Another show that I'm shocked was never added was at any point. This show was on the air for thirty-seven years. Dick Clark built his entire career on this show. None of the other music chart shows would exist if it wasn't for this show. (OK, I will admit that I'm crowbarring another show into this discussion, but I feel should also partly advocate for adding what is frequently considered to be it's Black equivalent: Soul Train. It was on the air just as long as American Bandstand, which is especially noticeable since: a) it was syndicated for almost its entire run and b) it was a Black-produced show.) --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support adding American Bandstand as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:33, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support For a couple of generations prior to MTV, VH1 and the rise of the music video this was one of the best forms of publicity for music.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. support adding Lorax (talk) 03:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is already tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 13:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Better Call Saul

ADDED
Nearly four weeks since last comment, five votes. More than 55% support for addition. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

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This has received the same critical praise as Breaking Bad. And since the critical praise for Breaking Bad amounts to "this is the greatest show of all time..." --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:17, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support --Thi (talk) 10:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Perhaps a bit early and certainly biased, but support. Curbon7 (talk) 20:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose Television series is bloated and should not include spinoffs pbp 15:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
    First off, Frasier is on here. Second, no offense dude, but your rationale of “we already have one thing” has lead you to some rather bizarre conclusions. Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 18:09, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
    We can have more than one article to represent a franchise. A show widely considered one of the best of all time should not be disqualified by being based on another show. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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(Re-)Add The Jerry Springer Show

ADDED
Discussion opened two months ago, last comment almost three weeks ago, five votes. More than 55% support for addition. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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So this show got removed, but because there wasn't a discussion over the removal, I feel save in arguing for re-add it. I'll be frank, this show is way too controversial to just simply have Jerry himself be vital. I know that we don't have critically lambasted works like The Room or Philosophy of the World on here, but I feel like there is a major difference between "this work is bad in a way that shouldn't be possible" and "this work is responsible for the decline of American values." --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support It's the most important tabloid-style talk show and represents an entire genre. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support. I've heard of it, for what it is worth. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is already tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 13:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose not a vital TV show.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Yellowstone (American TV series) (or remove Father Knows Best and 7th Heaven (TV series))

NOT ADDED
Discussion opened two months ago, last comment almost three weeks ago, five votes. Less than 55% support for addition. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:09, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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I will admit, I'm only adding this due to this being the most popular TV show right now. Like this is pulling viewership numbers that have not been seen in a loooong while. That said... it is remarkable how very little this show is discussed online. This feels like this is the modern equivalent of shows like Father Knows Best and 7th Heaven: conservative-coded shows that had high viewership, but any discussion on them seems to be limited to "that was popular?" (If there's anyone who oppose adding Yellowstone that also want to get rid of Father Knows Best and 7th Heaven, feel free to state that.) --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support adding as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Weak Support This is such a great show and has such great spinoffs.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose adding Yellowstone, support removing Father Knows Best and 7th Heaven. If nobody really talks about it, it is not vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is already tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 13:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Oppose per Blue Rider and its long-term vitality seems rather untested compared to other popular shows. --Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Arrested Development (and possibly add Malcolm in the Middle as well)

NOT ADDED
Not added 4-4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Besides being called "one of the greatest shows of all time", I feel like how it's important on how it help brought Netflix into prominence, what with the service successfully reviving the show. (I also kinda want to nominate another FOX sitcom Malcolm in the Middle, which is also called "one of the greatest shows of all time", but the praise is not strong as Arrested Development.) --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support adding Arrested Development as nom. --Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 04:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support adding Malcolm in the Middle Rreagan007 (talk) 03:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support --Thi (talk) 10:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is already tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 13:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. per The Blue Rider. Propose swaps instead. starship.paint (RUN) 05:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Oppose both per The Blue Rider on the basis that a section being 187/90 is Not Good. Cut down to its quota, and I'm guessing these won't make it. J947 ‡ edits 10:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Oppose per Blue Rider. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap Pogo (comic strip)  5 for Thorgal, Blueberry (comics) or XIII (comics)

NO CONSENSUS
1-0. The Blue Rider 01:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Comics swap. Pogo is the least popular under Comic strips, editorial cartoons and webcomics (14 articles), with 10 interwikis and 200 views daily. The other three comics represent the 'realistic' style of European comics, with more interwikis (23 for Blueberry, 16 for the other two), but fewer pageviews (100-150). I'd argue the pageviews represent lack of English audience familiarity with those comics - they are very popular in non-English speaking Europe, but they have not been signfiicantly translated into English. At least one of them should be represented here. Out of those three (they have rather poor articles on English wiki), Blueberry's lead states with RS that "Blueberry "was as much a staple in French comics as, say, The Avengers or The Flash here [in the USA]"" while Thorgal (which I edited a bit), "is critically acclaimed and one of the most popular French language comics" and " has also been credited with popularizing the comics in Poland". PS. We could also consider one of two additions if people think Pogo is vital (why?). We may have room in the quota after removing some stuff from regual novels (see discussions a bit above). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:02, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom, with equal preference for Thorgal or Blueberry. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:02, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament

FAILED
2-3. The Blue Rider 02:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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For 3 weeks a year the United states is enthralled with March Madness.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:17, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Weak support – don't think this is the worst proposal. Long history. More vital than the 60th basketballer. J947 † edits 01:32, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. And the rest of the world isn't. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:39, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. What? No. The Blue Rider 22:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. per PBP below. starship.paint (RUN) 03:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss

Possibly redundant to college basketball, which is listed at VA5. Since college sports are primarily a phenomenon in a small sliver of the world, college sports, college football and college basketball are probably enough to cover the topic at VA5. pbp 15:40, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

This. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:30, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
The NCAA tourney has 17 interwikis while the FIBA Basketball World Cup has 49, Basketball at the Summer Olympics has 42, EuroBasket has 43 and the NBA has 96. Even the ABA, which existed only in the United States and only for 9 years, has 32 interwikis.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Purplebackpack89 (talk • contribs) 17:49, November 7, 2023 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
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Video Game Consoles

Video games have been brought up as having too many VAs here. While I mostly disagree with that, I do believe that the Consoles section needs to be downsized. Below will be a group of proposals.

Remove Game Boy Color

PASSED
5-1. The Blue Rider 02:11, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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The last time I brought this up, people argued that it was a transitional console. I do not understand how that makes it vital. Many people view it as a simple upgraded version of the Game Boy, which would not be vital.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Weak support It was successful in its own right, but probably not distinct enough from the original Game Boy. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Never heard of it. (Unlike Game Boy, which is V5 and I assume we are keeping). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:29, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
    There is no way we are getting rid of Game Boy on the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 13:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose I think transitional or not, it is considered as the direct successor to the system that largely popularized handheld gaming and as successful in its own right. I'd definitely consider it more vital than the Game Gear. --Totalibe (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
    I would argue that it is too similar to the Game Boy. It even has a shared sales figure in the infobox. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
    That doesn't necessarily mean much other than that Nintendo didn't bother being specific with their public sales data. --Totalibe (talk) 11:57, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
    In a accounting perspective, you want to be transparent with your public sales of your good or service if it's important and/or is doing well, so if that's not the case then it's probably not vital. The Blue Rider 13:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Game Gear

REMOVED
23 days since discussion opened, 22 days since last comment, four votes. Unanimous consensus for removal. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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This handheld was little more than a failed attempt by Sega to compete with the Game Boy. The article gives no additional reasons for vitality.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nom. It was barely a thing. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. --Totalibe (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Never heard of it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose


Discuss
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Remove Wii U

REMOVED
23 days since discussion opened, 13 days since last comment, four votes. Unanimous consensus for removal. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:19, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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This was a failure in between two large successes. It did not have much of an effect on the company. It did not have much of an effect on the industry. It did not have enough of an effect on anything to be vital.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support One of the worst single purchases I have ever made. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support --Totalibe (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. support removing Lorax (talk) 04:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose


Discuss

I did hear of it. Just saying, no hard opinion here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Sega Dreamcast

NO CONSENSUS
2-2. The Blue Rider 02:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Of the main Sega home consoles, the Master System was more popular than the NES in European markets, the Genesis was their most successful console and an active competitor to the SNES, and the Saturn could be considered the cause of Sega leaving the console market. The Dreamcast, on the other hand, was just a sad last whimper before Sega fully backed out of making consoles. It somehow managed to sell even worse than the Saturn. For that reason, it is not vital.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Per nom. The Dreamcast is a bit of a historical joke. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose It was not successful enough to save Sega after the Saturn, but as detailed on its article, it pioneered many features that would become standard later on and it has become well-regarded in many circles for this, Sega's troubles notwithstanding. A real historical joke from Sega would be something like the 32X.
  2. 52 interwikis. 1600 daily views. I'd rather remove some other piece of tech, like some of those supercomputers nobody heard about I nominated a while back. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Intellivision

REMOVED
23 days since discussion opened, 19 days since last comment, five votes. Unanimous consensus for removal.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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This console was significantly less successful than the Atari 2600. It had a similar level of success to the ColecoVision, which is not vital.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support One of the many crappy consoles that was being thrown out at the time. Definitely not vital. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support Least pageviews and units sold out of the listed consoles.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 19:47, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Niche gadget. I've never heard of it. (I know, subjective, but still, indicative; checking page views vs others would likely support my view). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:27, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support Rreagan007 (talk) 01:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose


Discuss
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Add Oculus Rift

No consensus, 2-1. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

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The only addition proposal I will make. This console is the only reason VR video games are as popular as they currently are.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:53, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. --Totalibe (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Too specific, but I'd support adding Virtual reality headset. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:26, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
    I would be fine adding that instead. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
    @QuicoleJR Start a vote and ping me? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Piotrus: I started one in a different section. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    If we're focusing on video games, then why not virtual reality game? Totalibe (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    As a concept, perhaps. Thing is, personally, I recall hearing about the gadgets much more than about the games. The gadget seems to look cool and be covered, but the games still seem pretty niche. (Actually, that does not make a great case for even the gadget being vital - a bit too soon still, IMHO). I'll probably add a weak support for the concept (gadget), as AFAIK it is used outside gaming, which is an important consideration. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)


Discuss
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Take 5 from the Video Game Consoles quota and give it to Tabletop Games

PASSED
The Blue Rider 02:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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While video games are certainly important, board and card games have been around much longer and are comparatively underrepresented. This quota change, while small, would help with that issue.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. pbp 16:35, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Sounds fair. Some board game concepts are arguably related to video games too, and most board games have digial versions, so there's a lot of overlap and it is all relevant. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:25, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose


Discuss
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Additional/alternate proposal: Remove TurboGrafx-16

REMOVED
22 days since discussion opened, 18 days since last comment, four votes. Unanimous consensus for removal.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Not the original proposer, but as an alternative to removing Dreamcast or GBC, I would also suggest removing the TurboGrafx-16, which was briefly Nintendo's main competitor in Japan near the end of the 1980s due to being the first 16-bit console available, but flopped in the West and had a limited long-term impact, with its most well-known exclusives being the likes of the Bonk series. Category:TurboGrafx-16-only games doesn't have much, and NEC's subsequent console the PC-FX was a major failure that never made it out of Japan and only saw a library of 62 games released. --Totalibe (talk) 11:57, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. --Totalibe (talk) 11:57, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. Definitely not vital. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Never heard of it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:13, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Marketplace

ADDED
Added 8-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Surprised this isn't here already, article describes why it's vital, old, universal, well known. Top importance in business and economics wiki projects.

Support
  1. As nom.  Carlwev  07:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. And would support at V4 too. Nice catch. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 13:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 14:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. Definitely. J947 ‡ edits 06:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. SupportTonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:01, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
  7. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
  8. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion
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Add the following sci-fi TV shows

Following up on the Babylon 5 discussion above, I think we should vote on adding the following. Arguably many are more known and influential than some of the shows we list currently, and their lack of inclusion mirrors the mainstream bias against sci-fi / pop culture (that we generally do not mirror in other fields). Time to correct this oversight in our V5 tv show grouping. PS. For comparison. Doctor Who and Star Trek (framchise article) are V4.

Stargate SG-1

Not added 3-3. starship.paint (RUN) 14:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

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One of the biggest sf TV shows of the 90s/00s. I think the first TV show is more influential than the franchise it spawned that we cover at Stargate, but feel free to discuss. From the article: "Stargate SG-1 was honored with numerous awards and award nominations in its ten-season run."

Support
  1. As nom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. We have a split list of awards and a separate article on Stargate fandom. This show also spawned a franchise that is still going. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. There is no space. J947 ‡ edits 10:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    I would argue that all of the recent removals we have made and are currently voting on make some space for influencial shows like this one. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    The section is 187 out of 90, and – I'm no expert, but I seriously doubt this is more vital than most of the U.S. shows we list. J947 ‡ edits 22:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    I would say that it is. It is very influential. We have an entire separate article on the Stargate fandom. The article is rated High-importance by WikiProject Television. It is clearly very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Unbelievable that we're proposing adding television shows as we remove politicians and cities. pbp 18:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    This is not a good argument. The separate subpages have separate quotas and should be treated separately. This apples-to-oranges thinking will get us nowhere. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    But how the quotas were defined in the first place? We need to compare apples to oranges to adjust quotas as needed. Kammerer55 (talk) 16:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
    Yes, but if you have objections like this that is more of a reason to propose a quota change. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
    The total list is supposed to be 50,000, no more, no less. If an article is added, something else has to be removed to keep the list at 50,000. pbp 01:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    I'm just saying that it seems like you have more of a quota issue here. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Notable but not lasting vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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The Expanse (TV series)

3-6. The Blue Rider 01:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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IMHO the most influential and popular hard sf/space opera TV show since B5/STTNG of the 1990s. Six seasons. Granted, this is a bit recentism-affected, but this hasn't stopped us from listing some similar shows, films, games, etc. at V5.

Support
  1. As nom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per discussion. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per discussion. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 14:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. As The Blue Rider writes, there is no space. J947 ‡ edits 10:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. There is no space, and I think of all of the nominations in this section, this has bled less into the mainstream. Swap at best. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Unbelievable that we're proposing adding television shows as we remove politicians and cities. pbp 18:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Notable but not lasting vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. Hard to say something vital about this show. Merely a blip Respublik (talk) 05:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Star Trek: The Original Series

Added 7-1. starship.paint (RUN) 14:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

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Rationale: the show that started the famous franchise, brought SF to the TV screen and has created numerous popculture references. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nom. This is also the version that got six film adaptations and a new prequel series that is still airing. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Iconic. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
  5. Per nom. Jusdafax (talk) 06:31, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 14:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
    Arguably US is the dominant country (culture = Hollywood) in the TV show and film field. And I am saying it as someone who thinks US-centrism is a problem and many vital topics need less US or Western-centrism approach. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider PS. I'd support swaping for other random series that did not pass a vote here, or likely, support removal of series that do not show major and global cultural impact. The ones I nominated have such an impact, IMHO. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
    I will strike my vote on the basis that we remove other series. The Blue Rider 21:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider Thank you. Feel free to ping me if you start or see such a discussion. I suggested a few titles that might be candidates for removal above, in the Babylon 5 discussion. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. With the addition of this item, we would have 3 similar items from the franchise: the franchise itself (level 4) + two series (TOS and TNG). Most of the public would probably even not know that these notions are all different. Since we are trying to achieve diversity, it would be better to keep only the franchise itself, which would cover all these topics. Even though most other US TV series are less important (and many should be removed), it does not make sense to have such large topic overlap. Being at level 4 should be enough reward for Star Trek franchise. (Also, Spock was also just added, but that's ok, since he is the character and has less topical overlap with the franchise/series articles.) --Kammerer55 (talk) 19:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Kammerer55 Yet we have five Zelda games (see discussion below)... I know, whataboutism, but IMHO Star Trek is much more influential than the Zelda franchise. Or, yes, a minor city or a minor politician. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
  1. Pointing out that "Star Trek" is a level 4 article Do we need individual series's too? Lorax (talk) 04:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Lorax The reason I think the answer is yes is because the individual series listed here have been very influential and famous, more so than many other TV series we list. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:53, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Since ST:TNG has passed below, it would be rather strange not to list the original. I'll ping Rreagan007 who voted below but not here. And I note we alraedy have the same majority here as we did have for TNG (4 in favor, with 6:2 here, and 5:1 there). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

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Star Trek: The Next Generation

ADDED
Over a month since discussion opened, last comment 2 and a half weeks ago, six votes. 5-1 for addition. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Almost as influential as TOS. Picard in particular became a popular culture icon, and to a lesser extens some other characters from the show have enduring impact to (Wesley, Data...). From the article: he show was very popular, reaching almost 12 million viewers in its 5th season, with the series finale in 1994 watched by over 30 million viewers... In 2013, the Writers Guild of America ranked Star Trek: The Next Generation on their list of the 101 Best Written TV Series". Also: "In 2019, Popular Mechanics ranked Star Trek: The Next Generation the third best science fiction television show ever. In 2021, Empire magazine ranked it the 17th greatest television show ever."--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. The show is iconic. The show has already received its own spinoff series, and is very influential to popular culture. Picard, Worf, the Borg, etc. are all well-known characters in popular culture. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:14, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support Rreagan007 (talk) 22:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support - "Make it so." Jusdafax (talk) 06:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 14:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Battlestar Galactica

PASSED
Proposal from +1 month, 6 votes—5 supports and 1 oppose. It passes with 83,(3)% in favour. The Blue Rider 12:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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Also highly influential. But which one? Franchise, the original series (Battlestar Galactica (1978 TV series)), or the new one (Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series))? For now, I am suggesting the franchise, b/c IMHO both series have had significant impact, but less so than Star Trek, so I'd limit V5 entry to a single BG mention. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. All of the spin-offs that exist across several decades prove that this is an important franchise. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support Rreagan007 (talk) 22:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support adding any of these with the preference for the 2004 series, since only the latter has a strong Influence section. --Kammerer55 (talk) 20:25, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose on the basis that the United States section is tremendously over quota (+90). The Blue Rider 14:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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International TV series additions

The Blue Rider and Piotrus were discussing potential US-centrism in the TV series section above, so I thought I'd have a think on some suggestions for broadening the section's scope. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Add Servant of the People (2015 TV series)

ADDED
6-0 for addition. Added Servant of the People (2015 TV series)  5 to the "Television programs/Europe"-section of the Culture-sublist.--Kammerer55 (talk) 06:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

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One that stands out to me in my mind as clearly vital is Servant of the People, Volodymyr Zelenskyy's satirical comedy series that ran from 2015 to 2019. This show is arguably one of the most important TV series in Ukraine's modern history, as it directly preceded (one could say predicted) Zelenskyy's rise to power. It was widely syndicated abroad by Netflix, particularly after the Russian invasion of Ukraine catapulted Zelenskyy to international prominence. A remake series is now being released in Poland and one had been planned for the United States, before it was made irrelevant by the election of Donald Trump. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Always good to list influential non-USA series. The Blue Rider 22:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. support adding Lorax (talk) 04:27, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Support per nom. --Kammerer55 (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Money Heist

4-0, added. starship.paint (RUN) 13:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Another non-USian tv series. La Casa de Papel (Money Heist in English) is one of the biggest pop cultural phenomenons to emerge from Spain in recent years. The show has been immensely popular, inspiring many a spinoff throughout the world and many more a cosplay (the costume was even banned after cases of copycat robberies). It won an International Emmy, and the article for this show was one of the 50 most viewed articles in 2020 and top 25 most viewed for a number of weeks throughout its run. It even brought a remix of the Italian anti-fascist song Bella Ciao to the top of the music charts in some countries. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support with the latest spinoff Berlin (Spanish TV series) atop the Netflix popularity rankings now.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Squid Game

ADDED
5-2 for addition. Added Squid Game  5 to the "Television programs/Korea"-section of the Culture-sublist. --Kammerer55 (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

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Do I even need to explain why I think this should be added? This show was an international phenomenon to such an extent that many anglophones I know got over their aversion to subtitles just to watch it. It's the most watched Netflix series, has received many awards and was one of the top 50 most viewed articles in 2021 and the most viewed article in the weeks surrounding its release. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Weak support. It was famous when it appeared, probably still is. I am somewhat concerned about 'recentism' here, however. Will people consider it vital in a decade or two? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Sadly is influential pbp 15:19, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Weak support due to global representation. J947 † edits 07:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose I want to see more than just the first season before we declare this vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Wildly popular but it's too recent for us to infer its vitality. The Blue Rider 22:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
  1. I think people are countering recentism way too hard on this. This rose from nowhere to become the single most watched show on Netflix (which is today how many people primarily consume television) during its first month and reached number one in 94 different countries. It marks a massive milestone both in streaming services and in the rise of the Korean Wave outside of Asia. Even if the second series were to flop, the first would be enough to out-vital many of the already-listed shows in its own right (particularly compared to the others listed under "Korea"). And given that I've heard it mentioned in person within the past two weeks alone, I can personally attest that yes, it is still popular. Totalibe (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
    Popularity alone is hardly a good measure of vitality, there are other (more) important factors that we need to take into account, such as the number and notability of derivate works, consistent viewership, etc, that is, lasting influence and that's currently lacking. Also, personal biases aren't really worth much because you can attest but I can't attest, haven't heard about this show in months. The Blue Rider 11:58, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
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Remove The Pond—Moonlight

Already proposed and discussion ongoing. starship.paint (RUN) 11:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

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8 interwikis, 39 daily views, another item that is interesting only because of the high price paid for it. That's not enough to be vital particularly as that type of trivia placement changes quickly - it is now only 20th at the List of most expensive photographs. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
    @Piotrus: - this nomination is a duplicate of #Quota enforcement for works of visual art where both of you voted. starship.paint (RUN) 11:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose for the same reason I did a few weeks ago when it was listed. Only 3 copies two of which are held by the Metropolitan Museum of Art and Museum of Modern Art.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Neutral
Discuss
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Add following video games

I think we have focused too much on games that are "well reviewed" and forgot that some stuff that is widely popular (very high sales) may have a bit more shady reputation (monetization schemes) or is more 'mobile'. See for example the titles at https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_mobile_games and https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_video_games

I will propose a few below, also there are other serious contenders: PUBG Mobile, Genshin Impact, Lineage (video game)/Lineage (series), Puzzle & Dragons, Clash of Clans, Fate/Grand Order are all worth voting on as well, IMHO - but let's discuss the first batch (with no prejudice to anyone starting more votes if you see something here that you think needs urgent addition :P).

Call of Duty: Mobile

FAILED
Not added, 2-4 pbp 04:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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Reason: #2 on our List of most-played mobile games by player count (note: but just #33 on the list of highest grossing mobile games). Note also we list as V5 Candy Crush Saga, which according to this list has about the same player count.

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:41, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. This is a very recent mobile game. It did have high sales but the question is, how did it impact the videogame realm? The Blue Rider 14:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Coming back to oppose this later after my discussion comment, mainly for what I'd already posted, if we add this when we should also add more of the more influential titles in the COD series such as Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, and as it stands the quota is too low for that. Totalibe (talk) 19:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Redundant to Call of Duty pbp 22:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Per above comments on redundancy. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
  1. As a note we already have Call of Duty listed. --Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
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Honor of Kings

Added 3-1. starship.paint (RUN) 13:59, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Reason: #1 on the vgsales mobile list. From our article "As of November 2020, Honor of Kings had over 100M daily active players, making it one of the most popular games in the world, as well as the highest-grossing mobile game of all time. Additionally, it is one of the most downloaded apps globally". Note: this seems to be a Chinese-only title (English localization was released as Arena of Valor, it is less popular but still reasonably so, see mobile lists here - sometimes stats for both Chinese and global titles are merged, however. We don't need to V5 both, but I think one is needed.

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support --Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Videogames are rarely vital and this one isn't an exception. WikiProject Video Games classifies it as Mid-importance. The Blue Rider 11:02, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
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Monster Strike

Not added 1-3. starship.paint (RUN) 13:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Reason: #2 on the vgsales mobile list. From our article: "By October 2018, the game grossed over $7.2 billion worldwide, surpassing Puzzle & Dragons to become the highest-grossing mobile app of all time."

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. This is the weaker of the proposals. I'm not convinced on this one. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. I think we already have too many video and mobile games pbp 16:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. J947 ‡ edits 23:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
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Dungeon Fighter Online

ADDED
Nominated 2 months ago. Last comment 18 days ago Added, 4-1. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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Reason: #1 on the vgsales list. From our article: "Dungeon Fighter Online is one of the most-played and highest-grossing video games of all time, with over 850 million players worldwide and over $22 billion in lifetime revenue as of June 2023. This also makes it one of the highest-grossing entertainment media products of all time."

Support
  1. Support as nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
  2. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support --Totalibe (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Is this video game really more important than John Kerry or Dayton, Ohio? pbp 18:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Purplebackpack89 Pageviews suggest you are right and no, it is not, and not by a small amoung (~200 vs ~800 for the town and few k for the politician). Hmmmm. You are probably right we need to cut down video game numbers, I'd be happy to consider such a broader proposal. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
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More language proposals

While we're here...

Swap Medieval Latin and Neo-Latin

Neo-Latin added 3-1, Medieval Latin not removed 0-4. starship.paint (RUN) 14:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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(Alternative: Just add Neo-Latin)

Very notable as a language of international communication in the early modern period. The source of a bunch of scientific words we still use (e.g. Botanical Latin, Linnaean taxonomy, etc.). Obviously Medieval Latin was used similarly, just there's less stuff written in it because they didn't have the printing press and thus was a bit less influential. Wouldn't complain if Medieval is kept but Neo- seems important enough to add.

Support

  1. As nominator. Both Swap & straight addition are fine by me. SnowFire (talk) 04:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support addition – I'm sympathetic to subtopics of languages over the less vital languages. Though I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be an article that covers both of these. J947 † edits 05:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Weakish oppose removal. J947 † edits 05:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose since the rise of the printing press was a time in which the use of European vernaculars in writing was becoming widespread, thus marking the decline in influence of written Latin. Totalibe (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Oppose removal but would support addition. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:59, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Koine Greek

Added 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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This is the form of Greek used in the Hellenistic and Roman periods, and arguably has at least equivalent interest as Ancient Greek (a VA4) because the Christian New Testament is written in it, meaning that if nothing else it gets extensively studied and written on by theologians, scholars of religion, interested Christians, etc. But there's plenty of famous secular stuff written in it as well like Polybius's Histories; it's not just a liturgical language.

Support

  1. As nominator. SnowFire (talk) 04:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Not just the New Testament; the Septuagint (Old Testament) is written in Koine Greek and is arguably the authoritative version for Christians. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:05, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Totalibe (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Fellatio and Cunnilingus

ADDED
5-0 for addition. Added Fellatio  5 and Cunnilingus  5 to the Everyday life sublist. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:23, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oral sex is at level 4, so it makes sense to expand the topic at level 5, practices are fairly wide spread in time and place. The section contains other topics which seem less significant like cock ring, transgender pornography, bukkake, forehead kiss, webcam model. Some of these could be suggested for removal. We have anilingus and 69 position which seem odd to have before fellatio and cunnilingus.

Support
  1. Support as nom  Carlwev  16:26, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support In general the sexuality and gender section seems like a mess as it currently stands. Like, aside from anilingus being listed before these two, its under "sex position" when it refers to a sex act rather than a specific position, alongside other non-positions such as threesome and tribadism. Sexting is listed under sex work for some reason and I'm not even entirely sure if kiss should be under foreplay or not. You also have gay being listed alongside lesbian under homosexuality, but the article is actually about the word "gay" itself, rather than gay men, which is a separate article. As it stands its 10 over quota (135/125), but I don't actually think that's too much of a problem since clothing is well under-quota (188/210 so 22) so we can at least take 10 from that. Totalibe (talk) 22:32, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Shrug. Let's not be to prude. Sexuality is a common human behavior and those seem like rather common fetishes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:13, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support - TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anime (Category:Arts) and manga (Category:Culture)

Disclaimer: I'll ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga for more feedback.

Making analysis mildly annoying, manga is listed under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Arts and anime under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Society and social sciences/Culture. Here are the current contents of those sections:

Anime (19 articles): Boogiepop Phantom, Code Geass, Cowboy Bebop, Darker than Black, Dragon Ball Z, Eureka Seven, FLCL, Gundam, Gurren Lagann, Last Exile, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Pokémon (TV series), Pretty Cure, Sailor Moon (TV series), Samurai Champloo, Serial Experiments Lain, Space Battleship Yamato, Speed Racer, Sword Art Online

Manga (20 articles): Attack on Titan, Astro Boy, Bleach (manga), Cardcaptor Sakura, Death Note, Doraemon, Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, Fist of the North Star, Fullmetal Alchemist, Golgo 13, Hikaru no Go, Inuyasha, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Naruto, One Piece, Phoenix (manga), Sailor Moon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, YuYu Hakusho.

First, quota analysis: anime is under Japan (26 articles) section, which is under Television programs (290/180 articles) (note we are discussing whether to adjust TV quote in sections above). Here, Japan has third position in quota by region (after US with 188/90 articles and UK with 34), followed by Australia with 12. Manga is under Comics (45/45 articles), which falls under Fiction (499/490 articles), Specific works of literature (825/810 articles), Literature (1k). Setting aside the fact that the two subpages are organized quite differently (by country or by genra/type of work), I don't have much to add here (except to note that in the discussions above I support increasing quota for TV). At this point I don't have a comment on quote and I am assuming we want to keep the ~20+20=40 total. Or ~45 - see next paragraph.

Oh yeah. Anime films are listed under general animation (10 articles) heading under Specific films (200/200 articles). That section lists four anime films: Akira (1988 film), My Neighbor Totoro, Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (film) and Spirited Away. Setting aside whether listing Akira in the same section as some Disney movies makes sense, that's what we have. I'll also note that I suggested adding Ghost in the Shell movie in a discussion above (CTRL+F) if anyone cares to comment/vote on that, that discussion is still open.

Now, thoughts on content. Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon franchises are represented in both anime and manga sections. Several other franchises are represented only in one (most if not all entries from manga has a relatively well know anime, and this is true for the other category as well). There are cases where manga followed anime, and in some cases one type of media may be more famous than the other, sure. But overall I think there split we have right now is very arbitrary, although at least I'd say that yes, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball are very influential and may merit their two entries here (side note: several anime characters, including Sailor Moon (character) and Goku from DBZ are also listed under fictional characters). In either case, the first question is whether we attempt to clean this up by moving some entries from anime to manga or in the other direction, based on whether anime or manga is more influential or came first?

Second, perhaps more fun, is whether some entries shouldn't be swapped for others. Here it would be good to review works that claim to discuss most influential anime/manga titles. I'd be curious to hear justification for why the following are on the list: Boogiepop Phantom, Darker than Black, Eureka Seven, Last Exile, Samurai Champloo, Fairy Tail, Hikaru no Go, Phoenix (manga). Speaking as a fan of the anime/manga medium who has seen/read much of the entries we list, I don't consider those particularly famous nor influential, and their articles don't make claims of major significance, either. As noted before, I also find the lack of any Ghost in the Shell (Ghost in the Shell (manga), Ghost in the Shell (1995 film)) franchise entry on our vital list a major ommission (voting on the latter is somewhere above). Other potential additions (swaps for some of the titles above) we may want to consider might include (I base this on a quick browse through our anime and manga articles) Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba (recent hit franchise), My Hero Academia (ditto), Super Dimension Fortress Macross (major classic franchise) Puella Magi Madoka Magica (well received by critics and considered to be the serious magical girl anime), Rurouni Kenshin (another classic and popular franchise), Case Closed (aka Detective Conan, again, a major long running franchise), Oh My Goddess! (another classic anime/manga franchise), A Certain Magical Index (ditto, if a bit more modern), Crayon Shin-chan (major children franchise), Anpanman (ditto, note very high position at List of highest-grossing media franchises which frankly we should scour for more missed entries...) and Fate/stay night (it seems we don't have an article on this franchise, so I am listing the video game that likely should be vital for video games...). PS. I forgot I already proposed the addition of another classic manga/anime (Ranma 1/2) a few weeks earlier, see discussion above (CTRL+F...).

For some other inspiration, see List of best-selling manga, List of anime franchises by episode count, Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Popular pages...

Side note: Studio Ghibli is not vital (it probably should be). It's founder, Hayao Miyazaki (think Japanese Disney for those not familiar with this topic) is Vital 4.

I'll likely propose some swamps etc. in a while here. Feel free to beat me to it, of course. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Prior to any proposals, I would like to pitch my support for the following: replace Phoenix, Fairy Tail, and Hikaru no Go with Case Closed (third best-selling manga of all time; manga at position 4 and 5 are also included), Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba (best-selling manga by individual volume average and its film adaptation is the highest-grossing Japanese film of all time), and My Hero Academia (continues to rank among the most viewed animanga pages even when it's not airing and is definitely the most influential modern Shōnen with Demon Slayer, plus it sells well too). As far as anime goes, I would say remove Boogiepop Phantom and add Anpanman. Perhaps also remove Last Exile (as much as I love that series) and Darker than Black and replace them with A Certain Magical Index (one of the best-selling light novels along with SAO which is listed) and Crayon Shin-chan (major series, especially its anime, which is very popular in Asia). Link20XX (talk) 05:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Other potential options for inclusion could be That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime (best-selling light novel) or Toei Animation (created six anime or anime adaptations of titles listed above). Link20XX (talk) 06:00, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Done some proposals below. I'm open to include Toei Animation and Studio Ghibli animation studios but not sure where. I was surprised to see that Pixar animation studio is not vital, surely it should be? How about Mickey Mouse universe? starship.paint (RUN) 06:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
@Starship.paint I'd do separate noms for the studios. The relevant vital section is I think Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Society and social sciences/Politics and economics section on 'Film, television, video game, and music production (10 articles)', which lists stuff like 20th Century Studios, The Walt Disney Company, some video game companies and apparently, Sony.
MMuniverse would likely go to fictional concepts somewhere, I am not sure if we list another similar concept anywhere, just fictional characters. It would be good to discuss where to add it and if we can think of similar level entities, and if any are already vital? Marvel Universe and DC Universe come to mind (they are not vital). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
@Link20XX I've started some proposals before reading yours, they mostly align except I chose other stuff to add instead of MHA and Index (the thing about Index, I'd rather add wider Toaruverse franchise, but we don't have an article for it yet; that's the same problem I have with Fate-verse/TYPE-MOON's shared setting; of course we can list the best know work as a placeholder, like we do with Space Battleship Yamato, given no Leijiverse article...). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Exposing my bias in only suggesting articles I've had a hand in writing, but: The Rose of Versailles stands out to me as a significant omission, in terms of both sales and influence. I was also going to suggest a work by a member of the Year 24 Group, but perhaps making Year 24 Group essential rather than calling out a specific work is the better course of action, and the question of which anime and manga-related people should be deemed essential is a separate discussion entirely. And my personal bias would be to put Revolutionary Girl Utena before Madoka. Morgan695 (talk) 04:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
I'd be interested in seeing all of those written up with rationales, although IMHO Utena tried to do what Madoka succeded at. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
I agree that The Rose of Versailles should at least be added because not only was it influential, it's still culturally significant in the history of manga today, especially for shojo manga. lullabying (talk) 21:56, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  • I am both surprised and not surprised to not see Sazae-san here. It is not an anime that is popular or known amongst western otakus, although it is very popular in Japan as one of the few anime that is considered socially acceptable for men to watch, hence why it has aired continually for over 50 years. Curbon7 (talk) 06:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Curbon7 I don't think it became as being as Crayon Shin-chan or Anpanman... and what do you mean " one of the few anime that is considered socially acceptable for men to watch"? AFAIK it is perfectly fine for men to watch anime in Japan, and I don't see anything like this claim in the article? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    I would agree that Sazae-san should be here. While I do think that a wholesale adoption of Piotrus' suggestions would be an improvement over what's currently selected, I think we need to be more aware of recency bias in making these choices; that of the 39 titles, only seven are from before 1980 and only four are from before 1970 suggests to me that the full breadth of the medium is not being represented here. Morgan695 (talk) 15:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Morgan695 Balancing is tricky. I see your point, but I'll counter - a bit - with the argument about growing popularity of anime/manga. Stuff from 70s or 80s is historically significant but was not and is not as popualar as stuff from the last decade or two. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    But giving greater weight to recent popular titles presents its own balancing issue, doesn't it? Anime/manga as a medium tends to be very ephemeral; a flavor-of-the-month series will sell like gangbusters during its original run and then get immediately forgotten when the next big thing comes along. Contemporary popularity is not always an indicator of notability or importance. Morgan695 (talk) 17:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    I must agree with Piotrus here; I think it would be a bit of a WP:FALSEBALANCE to have half be older and half newer considering that in many cases newer series have been able to have a much wider impact, even beyond manga. However, I would support adding Sazae-san more due to its anime adaptation being the longest-running animated series of all time (according to the Guinness World Records). Link20XX (talk) 04:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    Where did I propose that half the titles be older? I'm just acknowledging that if this is to be a representative sample of "the most important anime and manga", I don't think you can credibly say that you've accomplished that goal when 90% of the titles are from last 40 years. Morgan695 (talk) 17:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    You didn't propose anything like that, I just made that statement as a hypothetical example. While I do agree that we could use some older titles, I don't think the recency bias is as big of a problem as you seemed to make it out to be. Link20XX (talk) 18:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    I decided to get the numbers for all the current VAs and when they debuts: for anime, there are 1 from the 1960s, 2 from the 1970s, 1 from the 1980s, 5 from the 1990s, and 10 from the 2000s. For the manga, there are 2 from the 1950s, 2 from the 1960s, 3 from the 1980s, 8 from the 1990s, and 5 from the 2000s. With those numbers, I definitely see a clear bias towards 1990s and 2000s (13/20 in manga, 15/19 in anime) and am surprised we don't have a single manga or anime that originated in the 2010s listed. Link20XX (talk) 18:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    For the series being proposed thus far in this thread, 1 is from the 1940s, 2 are from the 1970s, 2 are from the 1980s, 4 are from the 1990s, 3 are from the 2000s, and 3 are from the 2010s. Link20XX (talk) 18:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
I strongly agree regarding that My Hero Academia should be included. Beyond its popularity, it is singlehandedly reviving public interest in the core positive and optimistic values of the superhero genre that most western writers of said genre currently seem to have forgotten or be disinterested in. David A (talk) 08:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Also, shouldn't one of NisiOisiN's most popular works, such as Monogatari, be listed? David A (talk) 08:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
@David A Monogatari (series) - possibly. What would its claim to fame and vitality be? And where should it be listed? Light novels would be more of a literature thing than manga. Oh, and I wonder if light novel itself should be V5 (it is not). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Well, as far as I have understood, NisiOisiN is considered to be one of the absolutely most brilliant/genius and popular modern Japanese entertainment authors, but you are likely correct that it is out of place to mention him here rather than in a light novel context. David A (talk) 08:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
And why is YuYu Hakusho included exactly? It does not at all seem comparatively relevant to keep. David A (talk) 09:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
@David A I've never heard of this one before, but I'd guess that it is related to the fact that "the manga had over 78 million copies in circulation worldwide by 2022, making it one of the best-selling manga series of all time". Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
YuYu Hakusho is a bit of a strange choice; it did sell well and has a good amount of media and it is fairly popular page view wise, but I'm hesitant to say whether it was particularly influential. Another one I would like to question is Serial Experiments Lain. While this one was quite experimental, I think FLCL covers that topic and I don't see anything there that makes me believe it was particularly successful or influential to be VA-5. Link20XX (talk) 04:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Well, I think that Hikaru no Go, YuYu Hakusho, Boogiepop Phantom, Darker than Black, Eureka Seven, FLCL, Last Exile, and Samurai Champloo seem like rather odd choices to include in comparison to, for example, Studio Ghibli, My Hero Academia, Case Closed, Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba, Oh My Goddess!, Crayon Shin-chan, Anpanman, and Macross. David A (talk) 08:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
I thought FLCL had somewhat of a cult status or such for its humor, and Lain was well received by critics, but frankly neither seems very vital to me - they are still a cut above the stuff I proposed to remove or swap, IMHO, but this is also subjective and the usual comparison of apples to oranges. Feel free to propose more removals, additions or swaps :) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for helping out. I will do so. :) David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
All of the swap proposals below are starting to get out of hand. Perhaps we should change them all to add and remove proposals and just see which articles we have consensus to remove and which we have consensus to add. Link20XX (talk) 18:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
That might be better, although if any swap gets majority (3+?) it could be implemented, since it most agree they are a step in the right direction. And uh, forgive for canvassing about my proposals, but for all the activity and votes here, I'd like to remind people about dusty proposals related to Ghost in the Shell and Ranma above (CTRL+F). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Bump. It seems like there have been problems with continued participation in this discussion after it was moved. In addition, I have had problems with successfully following updates to it via the available top right button. David A (talk) 05:36, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus, Link20XX, Starship.paint, Morgan695, Lullabying, Curbon7, PeaceNT, LaukkuTheGreit, Charcoal feather, The Blue Rider, Dawid2009, and Totalibe:. David A (talk) 05:40, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
iirc Ranma (which I participated in) was originally was under a separate discussion, but thanks for the ping anyway. Totalibe (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus, Link20XX, Starship.paint, Morgan695, Lullabying, Curbon7, PeaceNT, LaukkuTheGreit, Charcoal feather, The Blue Rider, Dawid2009, and Totalibe: So do any of these suggested changes have sufficient support for somebody to apply now? David A (talk) 12:37, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Most of the proposals can, you just need to wait for a closer. The Blue Rider 15:01, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Swap Phoenix (manga) with Case Closed manga

SWAPED
3-2 for removal, 3-1 for addition. The Blue Rider 01:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Case Closed (Detective Conan) is more popular, it is the third best-selling manga of all time at approximately 270 million. Also note - Phoenix has 13 articles in other languages, while Case Closed has 61 articles in other languages. starship.paint (RUN) 06:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Also, CC anime has dozen+ seasons, as many movies, some of which are very high grossing AFAIK, and 1000 episodes. We could make a case both should be added, but reasonably, one will do.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. As nominator. starship.paint (RUN) 10:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. See my comment above. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Would it be possible to include both of them? Case Closed/Detective Conan has sold more issues, yes, but Osamu Tezuka's (the "god of manga's") greatest life work seems more important on a cultural level. David A (talk) 08:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    @David A Fair point. Reception and legacy section does claim that "Phoenix is considered one of the greatest manga of all time". I'd be fine with both, but the issue is quota. Can it acommodate more works? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Piotrus Good point. If the maximum number of featured works in each category is 20, the manga section has already reached its maximum, but in that case I think that Hikaru no Go and YuYu Hakusho seem like the odd ones out that should be replaced. I personally consider Bleach to incorporate pro-fascist ideology into its thematics, but I cannot deny its (regrettable) popularity and influence. David A (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose removal --Thi (talk) 18:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss

Agreed for the longevity and impact. --PeaceNT (talk) 23:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

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Swap Fairy Tail manga with Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba manga

PASSED
The Blue Rider 01:58, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Demon Slayer has twice the manga sales volume of Fairy Tail (150 million vs 72 million) and more than five times the sales per volume (6.52 million vs 1.14 million). starship.paint (RUN) 06:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As much as I like Fairy Tail... yeah, Demon Slayer has surpassed it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. As nominator. starship.paint (RUN) 10:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. See my comment above. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I think that YuYu Hakusho should be replaced by Demon Slayer instead. In my view YuYu Hakusho is a very low-quality extremely amoral work of limited influence, whereas Fairy Tail seems more significant in comparison. David A (talk) 08:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap Hikaru no Go manga with Crayon Shin-chan manga

SWAPPED
Discussion started 5 weeks ago. Last vote 20 days ago. +Crayon Shin-chan 5-0 /-Hikaru no Go 4-0 --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

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Crayon Shin-chan has more than five times the manga sales volume of Hikaru no Go (148 million vs 28 million) and more than twice times the sales per volume (2.35 million vs 1.08 million). starship.paint (RUN) 06:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Right. Crayon Shin-chan may be suffering from being a kid show that's not very popular in the US, even among the manga fans. But vital stuff should try for world-wide representation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. As nominator. Crayon Shin-chan seems popular in China. starship.paint (RUN) 10:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Seems okay to me. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. I also agree. David A (talk) 08:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support adding Crayon shin-chan, not really knowledgeable enough on Hikaru no Go to endorse keeping or remove. Totalibe (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss

Not sure. Hikaru no Go is one of the few mangas coming to mind that is known and credited for reviving interest among the youth for learning an old strategic board game. This real-world impact is one of a kind and stands out beyond the normal sales discussion. The popularity doesn't seem to have died down in recent years especially with a recent live-action adaptation. Example of third-party coverage I'd like to understand more reasoning beyond sales as Hikaru no Go also has a small volume which makes the sales comparison rather hard to be fair. Case in point, Death Note, another Vital manga where there is no debate on its worldwide influence, would itself not be able to compete with a lot of other mangas that don't make it to the vital list if based on sales alone due to the short run it had. --PeaceNT (talk) 23:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Note that I'm not opposing to include Crayon Shin-chan which is also very important, but I'm on the fence and wondering if we include both or re-arrange in a way that these two are not head-to-head?--PeaceNT (talk) 23:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
I'd be fine keeping Hikaru no Go if quota is not an issue. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:30, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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Swap Boogiepop Phantom anime with Anpanman manga+anime

SWAPPED
Discussion started 5 weeks ago. Last vote 20 days ago. +Anpanman /-Boogiepop Phantom both 6-0 --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

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The Anpanman franchise is 6th on the List of highest-grossing media franchises; this is clearly more important. starship.paint (RUN) 06:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Same rationale as my comment above. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. As nominator. starship.paint (RUN) 10:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. See my comment above. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Agreed. David A (talk) 08:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Support Not impressed with Boogiepop's 8 interwikis.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. Boogiepop is one of the stranger picks currently listed. Totalibe (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Swap Last Exile anime with Macross franchise

SWAPPED
Discussion started 5 weeks ago. Last vote 20 days ago. +Macross' /-Last Exile both 5-0 --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

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As much as I like LE (which is a very solid show and I feel nostalic to it, as it was one of the first anime I've seen and it hooked me on the genra), it is just a "good show", with some good critical reviews and some minor awards. But it is a niche show that just got one minor sequel and did not impact popculture. Whereas Macross is a much more impactful medium-sized franchise, going on for four decades or so, with several TV shows, movies, games, and whatsnot. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Seems okay. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Agreed. David A (talk) 08:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. Totalibe (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Swap Samurai Champloo anime with Puella Magi Madoka Magica anime

After this proposal was made, another one was made below to swap Samurai Champloo with something else, which achieved unanimous support, including from 2 editors who supported this. That leaves 1 editor who supported adding Puella who did not participate in the below discussion. As such, I conclude that there is no consensus to add Puella at this time. starship.paint (RUN) 05:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Samurai Champloo is just an average anime (a bit above average in reviews, but not particulary famous). Whereas Madoka received major critical acclaim, redefined the magical girl genre as one that can tell serious stories, and won a bunch of awards. One could argue there are several other important animes that could be added (I named some above), but Samurai Champloo is very much not vital. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. I guess this seems okay. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Madoka had a major impact on the genre. Charcoal feather (talk) 15:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support removal per below comment and nominator. The Blue Rider 17:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Neither of them seem sufficiently significant to feature. I think that it would be much better to replace Samurai Champloo with Studio Ghibli instead. David A (talk) 08:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose addition. The argument that the show "redefined the magical girl genre" is a rather lacking one. A magical girl is not vital to the understanding of our society, the only thing that these shows accomplished was increase the fetish on young girls and contribute to delusional beliefs of sorcery. Zero meaningful impacts on society. The Blue Rider 17:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    The magical girl genre itself was a way for girls to envision themselves as taking on a stronger persona and remove weaknesses from stereotypical feminine traits. lullabying (talk) 22:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    Okay, I might have been a tad euphemistic. Nevertheless, the girls from the show seem pretty feminine-dressed and from a quick glance I couldn't find anything on the articles for proposal regarding cultural impacts. The Blue Rider 22:16, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider See Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica#Reception. Or read the first paragraph in this academic article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    I will take a look when I have the time and change my vote accordingly if needed. The Blue Rider 13:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    That's the thing. The magical girl genre has always been about girls taking on a persona of being someone who they wanted to be, with using femininity as power. Puella Magi Madoka Magica was also a big spearhead in popularizing dark fantasies in the genre. I would also recommend looking at the reception section to cultural impacts. lullabying (talk) 05:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    You are opposing based on a "quick glance" and because the subject matter is so objectionable it can't be vital? WP:NOTCENSORED and all that... Charcoal feather (talk) 12:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    No, I'm opposing on the basis that the genre "magic girl" is not influential to our society, not because of a personal dislike since I never watched it. The Blue Rider 12:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider Magical girl: 34 interwikis, 544 pageviews daily. Seems vital, based on those numbers... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    Some of the most popular children's franchises that are aimed at girls are magical girl series, like Sailor Moon Creamy Mami, the Magic Angel, and Pretty Cure. I would say it's influential, especially with how it's also gotten the west to view women as superheroines. lullabying (talk) 21:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
    @Lullabying I wlll add it to the popculture concepts discussion section. Filks, please take a look at ot (CTR:+F), it contains a number of related concepts (mecha, catgirl, kawaii, moe...). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap Darker than Black anime with Oh My Goddess! anime/manga

Removed Darker 4-0, then Godness not added 2-3. starship.paint (RUN) 05:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Balancing those two, OMG I feel is more vital since it "one of the best-selling manga series. In 2009, Oh My Goddess! won the 33rd Kodansha Manga Award for the General category.". OMG is more classic, and OMG has more media - much more manga, plus a feature film. I could see someone making an argument there are more vital anime/mangas than OMG, but I just can't see DtB being vital for V5 level - it is just a perfectly average+ anime show, and nothing more, it did not create any major fandom or popculture influence or legacy or such. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. As much as I like OMG, I also think that My Hero Academia seems like a better fit. However, OMG seems like a great improvement to Darker than Black. David A (talk) 07:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support removal. The Blue Rider 17:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support reomval Nothing in DtB's Reception section makes it sound vital.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:15, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I don't really see anything about OMG that makes it super vital; yes it sold well and won a couple awards but I don't think it was particularly influential and it didn't make the top 500 most viewed animanga articles. Link20XX (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Link20XX Fair, but what makes DtB more vital? Perhaps neither should be here. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    I have no problem with removing DtB, I just don't think OMG is a good replacement. If it needs to be replaced, I've already indicated My Hero Academia or A Certain Magical Index as possibilities I would support (though I did help bring both of those articles to GA so I am biased). Link20XX (talk) 03:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
    Fair. I guess I should've just proposed separate addition and removal. In particular, I really think DtB needs to be removed as not a vital anime (even if I enjoyed watching it, probably more than OMG... :P). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose addition. The Blue Rider 17:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap Eureka Seven anime with Rurouni Kenshin anime/manga

Moot, Rurouni Kenshin was added below. starship.paint (RUN) 05:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Similar to the above, I feel that both shows might argue to have similar anime vitality (number of seasons, etc.) but RK is more classic and has more manga power. Crucially, RK article shows its importance with a three-paragraph 'cultual impact' subsection, something that E7 does not have. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. This seems fine, I'm just hesitant to switch an anime for a manga. Link20XX (talk) 15:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support (I supported addition already elsewhere)--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:15, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I am not sure if this is appropriate as good representation of the medium, given the serious criminal activity that the author for this work was involved in. David A (talk) 08:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap the YuYu Hakusho manga with the Case Closed manga/anime

NO CONSENSUS
The Blue Rider 01:42, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Case Closed has had more than 270 million manga copies sold, been published in at least 104 volumes, and launched a massive media franchise of both movies and tv series, so it seems much more relevant, and I think that Osamu Tezuka's likely greatest work, the Phoenix, should remain featured here due to its cultural relevance. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
But Phoenix is the the most culturally relevant work of Osamu Tezuka, who, as far as I have read, had a greater influence on the development of modern manga as an art form than any other Japanese artist. David A (talk) 11:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
See here please. David A (talk) 11:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I am still not too sure Phoenix is the best choice especially considering the limited quota. We already list Astro Boy (Tezuka's most famous work), but if quota is not an issue I might be okay with supporting this instead of the one above. Link20XX (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for being very reasonable. David A (talk) 20:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
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Swap the FLCL anime with the My Hero Academia manga/anime

PASSED
The Blue Rider 01:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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My Hero Academia has reconstructed the previously systematically deconstructed, undermined, and maligned heroic myth itself in a very efficient manner and has enjoyed massive international popularity both in manga and anime format. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. I thought FCLC was more classic/cultish but the article doesn't make the case for it, and MHA seems to have had a longer run alraedy and is well received. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Happy to support if my proposal below is also implemented. Link20XX (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I would support adding My Hero Academia, but I would rather remove Serial Experiments Lain than FLCL as that one had way less impact that FLCL. Link20XX (talk) 18:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
I find that compromise solution fully acceptable. David A (talk) 11:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I've struck this comment and added a proposal below. If that one is implemented I'd support this one too. Link20XX (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap the Eureka Seven anime with the Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba manga/anime

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Demon Slayer has, among other things, had the highest grossing Japanese animated movie of all time, and sold over 150 million copies of its manga volumes, whereas Eureka Seven and Rurouni Kenshin both seem comparatively considerably less relevant, and I think that Fairy Tail should be kept and not replaced as it had sold over 72 million copies even back in 2020 and has a successful media franchise with lots of tv series, movies, and games on top of that. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support this option as well. I don't think E7 was ever vital, it was just an average anime even when it was airing. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
But Fairy Tail is much more notable than Eureka Seven, as far as I am aware, so shouldn't we at least give it a chance to remain? And I do not think that Rurouni Kenshin is as popular and uncontroversial as Fairy Tail either. David A (talk) 11:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Being controversial doesn't make a series any less vital. As you said above, despite your objections with Bleach's themes, you do not deny it is a vital article; I feel the same about Johnny Kitagawa and Rurouni Kenshin. Link20XX (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Good point. How about if we replace Samurai Champloo and Eureka Seven with Demon Slayer and Rurouni Kenshin then, so Fairy Tail is kept? Would that be an acceptable compromise solution? David A (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm okay with that. Link20XX (talk) 17:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
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Swap the Samurai Champloo anime with Studio Ghibli

Withdrawn. starship.paint (RUN) 05:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Studio Ghibli is generally considered to be the Japanese equivalent of the classic Disney animation studios, and has produced a considerable number of internationally acclaimed masterpieces over the last decades. It seems much more relevant than Samurai Champloo or Puella Magi Madoka Magica. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. David A (talk) 17:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support adding Ghibli to companies, support swapping SC for some other anime (as proposed above). But per Link, this is not a well formatted swap proposal, since those are differnet categories of entities. I suggest changing it to just add Ghibli and pinging Link and anyone else who has commented since to see if they want to revise/clarify their votes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I would strongly support adding Studio Ghibli, but that should be added to the companies section and not replaced with an anime (which is in a different section). Link20XX (talk) 18:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
It is much more recognised as a brand of anime movies, so are you absolutely certain about this? David A (talk) 11:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Studio Ghibli is a company, so it should be placed with the other company articles (like how Hayao Miyazaki (VA-4) is with people and not anime). Link20XX (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I accept your reasoning here. As I stated above, how about if we replace Samurai Champloo and Eureka Seven with Demon Slayer and Rurouni Kenshin then, so Fairy Tail is kept? Would that be an acceptable compromise solution? David A (talk) 20:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
That's fine with me. Link20XX (talk) 03:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Swap the Samurai Champloo anime with the Rurouni Kenshin anime/manga

Swapped 4-0. starship.paint (RUN) 05:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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As stated above, this option replaces my Studio Ghibli suggestion, so Fairy Tail can remain featured.

Rurouni Kenshin remains an extremely popular and culturally significant work despite the author's very extreme crimes, that I personally find thoroughly repulsive, and it had sold over 72 million copies even 4 years ago. David A (talk) 07:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. David A (talk) 07:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Although I suggested a different swap for those properties above, this is an elegant one (samurai anime for samurai), and RK is more vital than SC. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support I'd never heard of Rurouni Kenshin but skimming the sections on adaptations, reception and cultural impact makes a convincing case.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Fine by me. Link20XX (talk) 15:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Swap Serial Experiments Lain with Sazae-san

SWAPPED
3-0 for addition and 3-2 for removal. The Blue Rider 01:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Sazae-san is the longest-running animated series of all time as certified by the Guinness World Records; surely that counts for something.

Support
  1. As nom. Link20XX (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per my comments further above. Curbon7 (talk) 03:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. This seems perfectly reasonable. David A (talk) 20:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I am not convinced this swap is a good idea. Mind you, I am not opposed to adding Sazae-san, but it seems to have less impact than Lain, who was more criticially received. Lain has 29 interwikis, Sazae-san just 20. Lain also gets a very respectable 2k views per day, and S-s only 500. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
    @Piotrus: The Japanese article for Sazae-san is much more detailed and contains several additional claims of importance, like being the best-selling comic in Japanese newspapers and being the symbol of Japanese family during the postwar era in Japan. Meanwhile, while Serial Experiments Lain performed well critically and has a lot of interwikis, I just can't see anything particularly influential about it and it doesn't seem to have the influence that Sazae-san has, especially considering the latter is the longest-running animated series of all time while the former is just 12 episodes. Link20XX (talk) 03:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Weak oppose removal I haven't watched it but Lain's stats are a bit too respectable for a relatively old anime show, with its pageviews actually increasing over time. Sazae's long running time and influence within Japan may be enough to get it added but I'm more doubtful about justification for a swap. I'd rather see the animanga listings develop a bit more before confirming Lain is indeed undeserving of being listed.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:15, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
If quota's not an issue, I would be okay with keeping both. Link20XX (talk) 16:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
  1. To consider: SEL is one that has actually had a resurgence in popularity in recent years due to being themetically relevant to a highly-networked society, as can be seen above where it was noticed that pageviews had been growing. (some articles I was able to find related to this in some way with fairly little effort]: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]) Totalibe (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
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Add Studio Ghibli (Category: Politics and economics # Companies)

PASSED
The Blue Rider 01:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Per discussions above, I think we have rather strong consensus this should be added, but it wasn't yet proposed anywhere outside a cancelled swap idea. This should be added to the same section that lists film making companies like Disney or 20th Century Fox etc. One of the most important if not the most important anime making studios.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. See my comments above. Link20XX (talk) 03:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:15, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. I also support this. David A (talk) 16:02, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. In general I think media studios may deserve more focus under that section as cultural impact often goes beyond them in terms of "size" as companies or w/e Totalibe (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Ghost in the Shell (1995 film)

NO CONSENSUS
The Blue Rider 01:31, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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The film " is now considered to be one of the best anime and science-fiction films of all time... The film received numerous accolades... making it the most nominations for a Japanese animated film ever at the awards.".

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support Dawid2009 (talk) 19:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Object
Discuss
  1. Note. Move from main page where this was in the "Add stuff from Category:Wikipedia level-unknown vital articles". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
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Add Ranma ½

Added 4-0. starship.paint (RUN) 05:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Classic manga and anime. From the article: "The Ranma ½ manga has over 55 million copies in circulation, making it one of the best-selling manga series. Both the manga and anime are cited as among the first in their respective media to have become popular in the United States."--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support "The series's publication in North America proved highly successful as well, being many Americans' first introduction to manga and its anime adaptation one of the first Japanese animation shows to achieve popularity in the US" --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 14:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support Totalibe (talk) 19:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support in lack of better options. David A (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Object
Discuss
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