Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/HMS Sardonyx (1919)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article promoted by Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 20:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list

HMS Sardonyx (1919)

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Simongraham (talk)

HMS Sardonyx (1919) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because HMS Sardonyx was one of only a few Royal Navy destroyers designed in the First World War (albeit launched shortly after the Armistice) to serve at the Normandy landings in the Second. She had a career rare amongst ships of her class, finally being broken up in 1945. simongraham (talk) 11:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Support by Nick-D

It's good to see such a detailed article on a destroyer. I have the following comments:

• The lead is a bit short for the size of the article: 2-3 paras is the norm
  • That sounds a very good idea. Which aspects would you recommend including please? More from the specification or more from the service?
    • The service history, mainly, but I'd suggest noting the ship's role and key features (especially the 1940 refit that probably resulted in a different role) Nick-D (talk) 10:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
      • Thank you. I have expanded the lead as you suggest.
• The first para of the 'Design and development' should note what the role of these ships was at the time they were ordered.
  • Added.
• The last para of that section should be tweaked to note that this was the armament upon completion.
  • Added.
• "Sardonyx was commissioned into the Reserve Fleet" - what does this mean? (e.g. does it mean that the ship was put into reserve straight away?).
  • I believe so.
• If possible, it would be good to note why the ship was completed and retained after the end of the war given the RN would have ended the war with vastly more destroyers than it needed
• The year referred to in the first para of the 'Interwar service' is unclear.
  • Added.
• Can more be said about the ship's service in the Baltic? There have been some recent works on the RN's activities in this campaign.
  • That sounds very interesting. I have referenced Dunn but if you have any other pointers, I would be grateful.
• What happened between 1920 and 1925 when the destroyer is active again?
  • It seems that she was laid in reserve.
• Likewise, when was the ship decommissioned following this period in service ahead of returning to service in 1931? What was the destroyer's role from 1931?
  • It seems that the 1925 mission was a one-off. I have altered the paragraphs to match.
• The last para of the 'Interwar service' section is a bit repetitive and confusing
  • Amended.
• "updated for the escort role" - not sure that 'updated' is the right word, given these modifications tended to involve reducing capabilities associated with front line fleet service to improve their usefulness as convoy escorts. It should also be noted that this was part of a larger program of modifying destroyers in this way.
  • Amended.
• "The destroyer reentered service" - when?
  • It is sometime in the middle of 1940, but the sources are not clear.
• What was the destroyer doing in 1943? This was the crisis of the Battle of the Atlantic. Had she been relegated to other duties by this time?
  • It seems so. There is no record of any duties after 20 May. Added some more background information.
• "On 8 June 1944, the destroyer escorted the troops that took part in the Normandy landings" - this is a bit confusing. Was she escorting convoys taking reinforcements to the beachhead? The wording also makes it sound like she was the only destroyer involved in this. What the ship's role at this time was should be made clear.
  • Clarified
• Can anything be said about the experiences of the ship's crew? I imagine that Atlantic convoy duty in an elderly destroyer wasn't much fun. Nick-D (talk) 07:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I cannot find anything explicit. There is some generic material in books like Brown's Atlantic Escorts: Ships, Weapons & Tactics in World War II but it seems to relate more to corvettes than the S class. Any guidance would be gratefully received. simongraham (talk) 02:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Nick-D: Thank you for all your comments. I believe that I have made the changes you suggest, but would value any guidance on additional sources. simongraham (talk) 21:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC) Support My comments are now addressed: nice work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 08:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi simongraham, some comments:

• Consider expanding the lead section by 1-2 paragraphs with material from the body?
  • Expanded.
• Link to John Brown & Co. in the infobox? Also, is the Curtis here Curtiss-Wright?
  • Linked.
• "Sardonyx ws": "was"?
  • Corrected.
• Link to sister ship at mention Sabre instead of Scimitar?
  • Linked.
• Link to superstructure?
  • Linked.
• Link to British 18-inch torpedo?
  • Linked.
• Per NOFORCELINK, specify that the Dumaresq was a fire control computer?
  • Clarified.
• Is the pennant numbers caption for the table necessary? We already have the section heading.
  • Removed.
• Provide links for the following news articles?

"The Lost Submarine" "Little Hope for M2: Officers and Crew" "The Great Gale" "Stories Of The Gale" "News in Brief: Destroyer Aground"

• • Added, thanks to the Times Archive.
• Provide a link or identifier for Head 2009? If you received this paper via resource request, you should specify this in a hidden note so that future reviewers do not consider this source to be invalid.
  • Added a JSTOR link.

That's all from me, cheers Matarisvan (talk) 06:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, consider adding this article to List of ship decommissionings in 1945? Matarisvan (talk) 18:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan: Thank you for your comments. That was very helpful. simongraham (talk) 21:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, two minor comments:

"21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes. Launched": Consider rephrasing to avoid Wikipedia:SEAOFBLUE? Also, link to J. J. Colledge and Jürgen Rohwer? Matarisvan (talk) 04:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Nigel Ish

A few initial comments

• According to an 1986 article in Warship (Brady, Mark (1986). "The Old 'S' Class Destroyers". In Lambert, Andrew (ed.). Warship Volume X. pp. 12–23. ISBN 0-85177-449-0.), Sardonyx was a tender to the Signal School in 1938 - there is a photo of her during this time (p. 14). The 50 cm radar trials also appear to have been carried out under the Signal School (p. 22), and eventually led to the development of Type 282 radar. Incidentally, in this case 50 cm is a wavelength, so should probably be converted to a frequency.
• According to Brady, it was planned in the late 1930s to send Sardonyx to the Far East to join the S class destroyers already there, once she had finished her duties and been refitted, but the refit was still underway when France fell, which generated a great need for more ships in Home waters.
• Sardonyx does NOT appear to have been fitted with Type 271 centimetric radar - Whitley and Brady says this was only fitted to Shikari, while Friedman p274 only refers to the ship's close in armament, not radar. Please check your sources to see that nothing else like this has slipped through.
• re. the question about what Sardonyx was doing in 1943, there is more in Denis Rayner's Escort: The Battle of the Atlantic - by this time the S-class survivors were concentrated in the 21st Escort Group - in the early part of the year they were employed (when they weren't broken down) on escorting fast convoys of troopships from Iceland, where they could put their high speed to good use. In the summer, the 21st EG was employed in Operation Rosegarden, an attempt at a joint operation with RAF Coastal Command to interdict U-boats between Iceland and the Faroes. This failed, partly because of the inability to cope with the weather conditions. In autumn 1943, the group was used to provide training for submarines, simulating enemy escorts. Brady notes that they didn't have the range to take part in the major mid-atlantic convoy battles in 1942–1943.
• There is more on how the ships coped with Atlantic convoy duty in Brady and Rayner. Basically not well - they were very badly overloaded and overcrowded, and probably unfit for the North Atlantic when short of fuel but still carrying a full depth-charge load. They appear to have been popular with crews, however, as they spent much more time ashore as the ships were having weather damage repaired.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Nigel Ish: Thank you for these comments and sources, which have been very helpful. I have made changes based on both Brady and Rayner. simongraham (talk) 12:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Image review - pass

• Only one image: File:HMS Sardonyx WWII IWM FL 18692.jpg - licence okay. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Source review - pass

The article/list is consistently referenced with an appropriate citation style, and all claims are verifiable against reputable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations as appropriate.

• Bibliography:
  • Brady (1986): location? publisher?
    • Added.
  • Dietrich-Berryman & Hammond (2013): location should be Annapolis, Maryland
    • Corrected.
  • Jackson (1997): You don't need the page number in the bibliography
    • Removed.
  • Link Stephen Roskill
    • Linked.

• Spot checks:
  • fn 31: I am not convinced that "the need for ASW escorts was, of course, pressing as the prospect of another U-boat campaign against shipping in the North Atlantic became a reality" equates to "the Royal Navy required all available destroyers to be made available to combat the German submarine threat".
    • Reworded.
  • fn 14, 18, 25, 44, 57 :okay

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: Thank you. That is very helpful. simongraham (talk) 08:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Great work. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan and Nigel Ish:: Ready too support? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I have no objections.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, happy to support for promotion to A class. Matarisvan (talk) 15:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.