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October 3

Catherine of Aragon a virgin?

Was Catherine of Aragon really a virgin when she married Henry VIII? Was her previous marriage to his brother really unconsummated? 86.130.9.101 (talk) 18:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that Prince Arthur was only 15 at the time of his death, it is not inconceivable that he and Catherine never had sex. That was certainly the argument that Henry put forward in order to marry her.

Of course that argument was reversed when it came time for him to seek an annulment/divorce. Blueboar (talk) 19:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably something that will never be answered.

David Starky in his book, Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII, argues that Catherine had been brought up to know the politics involved and what was needed to achieve her goals.

Allison Weir in her book, The Six Wives of Henry VIII was of the opinion that Catherine was a pious woman who wouldn't have entertained lying about this, and certainly wouldn't have gone to her death bed maintaining that lie.

Athur, Prince of Wales was said to have reported the morning after 'it was thirsty work' (I don't have the exact quote to hand), whereas Catherines maids reported sexual intercourse didn't happen.

Make of that what you will. Knitsey (talk) 19:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only 15? This was in the Middle Ages. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rounde ye backe of ye bike shedde? Alansplodge (talk) 08:21, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't dynastic consummations have to be witnessed? Alansplodge (talk) 07:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alansplodge: Not usually, at least not at that period in time. They were 'put to bed' by a contingent of courtiers/religious figures/relatives and left to it.

Sometimes there were people that 'hung around' to ensure things 'were underway'. (I've no idea why I'm reverting to Euphemisms). Knitsey (talk) 10:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They had lots of ways of faking things, such as a maid passing the bride a vial of rabbit's blood to be splashed on the sheets. Abductive (reasoning) 11:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only Catherine knows for sure, and she ain't talkin'. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In The Spanish Princess, Catherine denied many times that she ever consummated her marriage to Arthur. But in the final episode, she confessed to Henry/Harry about consummating their marriage. 86.130.9.101 (talk) 19:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That proves it! :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is impossible to know that for certain. When Henry VIII wanted to divorce her by annulment on the grounds that she had sex with his brother, it was in his interest to claim that she was not a virgin when she married him because she had sex with Arthur. In the same way, Catherine did not wish to divorce him, and it was in her interest to deny that she had sex with Arthur even if she did. There are no proof for either version.

However most historians appear to considered it likely that Arthur did not have sex with Catherine. It is true that he was 15; but he was a weak and sickly teenager, who appeared much younger than actual his age. When Arthur and Catherine married in 1501, no one really claimed that the marriage had been consummated. Because of Arthur's weak health, it would have been seen as natural that the consumation was postphoned until he had become stronger. The couple's respective parents expressed in their correspondence that they would be "pleased rather than displeased" if the consumation was postphoned somewhat. It seems likely that it did. They had separate rooms. In the divorce trial, Arthur is claimed to have bragged that the marriage was consumated, but that appears not to have been mentioned before.

After Arthur died and Catherine was bethrothed to Henry, the Pope was asked for a dispensation because Catherine had been married to Henrys brother. The dispension claimed that the marriaged "maybe" had been consumated; but if it had really been consumated, they would simply have stated that it had been, since that was an important part of the dispensation.

When Henry VIII married Catherine in 1509, he himself claimed very clearly that his bride had been a virgin on their wedding night. It was not until the wedding proceedings twenty years later that he started to claim otherwise. That means he changed his story according to his wishes.

Catherine herself never changed her story. When Arthur died in 1502, she clearly stated that the marriage was unconsumated; she continued to say so until her marriage to Henry in 1509, and she said the same thing during the divorce in the 1520s and 1530s. Notably, she was also genuinly religious, and historians therefore assume that it would not be in characther for her to lie to her priests and the church. --Aciram (talk) 16:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]