Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 May 31

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 31

Abkhazia–Nauru relations

Apart from the formal recognition, there's quite some history of meetings and cooperation between the two. Abkhazia, given its status, would be happy to maintain relations with anyone. But why does tiny and remote Nauru care so much? --Qnowledge (talk) 06:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

$50,000,000 might do the trick. --Antiquary (talk) 11:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Assaulting a police officer in the US

Hi,

I've seen dozens of videos of people insulting and/or assaulting police officers (and sometimes spitting on them) before getting arrested for it. What happens to them next? Do they go to the police station and get released after a few hours or do they spend some days at the police station? Is the punishment for assaulting a cop a State law or a federal law? Thanks. Ericdec85 (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

There's no federal police force as such. If it's a state or local police officer, it's going to be covered by local laws, and what happens will depend on circumstances. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Er...the Federal Bureau of Investigation would probably beg to differ. Probably also the Drug Enforcement Administration. Don't forget the United States Secret Service. And heck, the United States Park Police. There are plenty of law enforcement agencies at the federal level, responsible for enforcing federal laws, working in areas of federal jurisdiction. Assaults on them are covered under 18 U.S.C. § 111 - Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees, where offenders are subject to a prison term of up to 8 years—20 years if they use a weapon or inflict bodily injury. (Note that just lying to them is also a crime under 18 U.S.C. § 1001, which has particular...poignancy...in today's political climate.)

As noted below, officers exercise judgement (good or bad) in whether or not to arrest and charge; prosecutors exercise judgement in deciding whether or not to prosecute, and whether or not to plea bargain; judges exercise judgement in imposing a sentence.

Now, if someone actually provided sources to address the question asked, that would be good. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the FBI a police force. --Viennese Waltz 14:43, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

FBI Police then. Amisom (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The principal "federal police force as such" is the United States Marshals Service. --Trovatore (talk) 18:22, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Then, the 'Vice Principal' must be the United States Capitol Police. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

No, from a glance at that article, I don't think the Capitol Police are remotely comparable. Nor are the FBI Police. Those two are there basically to protect specific buildings.

The only general-purpose "police force" of the federal government is the US Marshals. --Trovatore (talk) 16:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Police officers in the U.S. usually have discretion on whether or not to arrest and/or enforce the laws. In this case, if you assault a cop, it's very highly likely that they will throw the book at you and keep you detained for as long as possible to the fullest extent of the applicable state or county law. The police in the U.S. are pretty well-known for circling the wagons.--WaltCip (talk) 11:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Assaulting a cop or public transport driver is a felony punishable by up to I think 7 years in New York. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 11:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

If your skin is sufficiently dark, you get beaten or killed. Also maybe if your skin is white if you're obviously mentally ill, homeless, or for some other reason the police think they can get away with it. Then if you're still alive the prosecutor throws dozens of charges at you to get you to take a plea bargain. You're also imprisoned without trial because you can't afford to post bail. If you're well-off or influential, they usually don't bother because you'll get a competent attorney and get most of the charges dismissed or reduced before trial. If the prosecutor even decides to press any charges, you usually get to plead guilty to some slap-on-the-wrist charge like disturbing the peace. In the event they actually press more serious charges (worried about their conviction numbers for the next election, perhaps) and you get convicted, the judge gives you maybe a couple slaps on the wrist (six months jail and probation!) so they don't get on your bad side. Otherwise you might campaign against them (at the state level, judges are elected in most states) or do something else to make their lives harder.

Some people will probably complain about this reply, but it's basically accurate as to how things actually work in the U.S., as opposed to how they're supposed to. "Ideally", you still get treated well by the police, and the prosecutor decides if they feel your behavior was illegal, and if so it's brought to trial before a jury, but in reality that only happens if you're white or rich and influential. There is an enormous amount of evidence for this. Police brutality in the United States is just one place to start.

Also judicial election seems to me like it should be an article. There are articles for certain states, and retention election, but that only addresses a certain type of election. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:11, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Ironically, I find this to be the most accurate and salient reply along with TenOfAllTrades's.--WaltCip (talk) 12:19, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Um... the OP’s question is about assaults ON police officers, not assaults by police officers. Blueboar (talk) 12:42, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

You didn't read the reply. It pretty accurately details the consequences of assault, albeit based on status.--WaltCip (talk) 12:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Law report catchwords

Hello - I want to read about the way that law report's catchwords are produced. Catchwords are the bits shown here in the picture in italics: Action - Cause of - Nervous shock.... They work from something general and narrow down separated by dashes. There must be a litrature on how theyre produced/ chosen/ conventions baout them, but I can't seem to find it? Thanks Amisom (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

This varies by reporter and there isn't really a standardized system for all reporters. The closest to that is the one used by West Publishing's National Reporter System. West has standardized keywords that key to various secondary West publications in the West American Digest System. However, other reporters use their own keywords, which may or may not be part of a standardized system used by that publisher. John M Baker (talk) 19:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and it's probably obvious from that comment, but the term is "keyword," not "catchword." John M Baker (talk) 21:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

No-original-parts paradox

What’s the name of the thought experiment (or paradox?) whereby the components of something, say an automobile, are replaced one by one until it has no original parts, yet we still call it the same car? Loraof (talk) 15:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

@Loraof: Ship of Theseus Amisom (talk) 15:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Great—thanks! Loraof (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Ship of Theseus" is the name among academic philosophers, but among ordinary people it's probably more likely to be known as the "Grandfather's axe" ("This is my grandfather's axe: my father replaced the blade, and I replaced the handle")... AnonMoos (talk) 16:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Or Trigger's broom. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 18:07, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"And because it's changed, over time, it's still a pretty good axe, see?" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps then we might call it the "Scone of Stone" paradox. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.202.160.23 (talk) 19:45, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Washington's Axe" is another name for it (even in the UK). Alansplodge (talk) 19:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, are you all talking about the Sugababes paradox? --Antiquary (talk) 21:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

And what's the temple in Japan that is duplicated and burnt down every twenty years? —Tamfang (talk) 22:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Ise Grand Shrine (though it doesn't seem to say anything about burning). I think there are a number of historic wooden buildings in east Asia that have been renovated or rebuilt on several occasions... AnonMoos (talk) 01:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The Corn Palace is rebuilt yearly; though only the facade. The structure remains. --Jayron32 02:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The Ice Hotel in Sweden is rebuilt every year. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Tom Neil chronology

Tom_Neil#Publications lists books written by TN, several (all?) being autobiographical. I am interested in reading the bios in story chronological order. Does anyone know what that is? I am fairly sure that "Gun button to fire" is the first one. -- SGBailey (talk) 19:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Was it ever possible to catch the Blue Riband ship without flying? (if it wasn't late and your connection wasn't early)

That is, could you leave the biggest city of the ship's home country later by taking a longer trip to a different port of call and still get on? i.e. You're still at the center of London 1 minute too late to get on at Southampton (unless the train gets to Southampton earlier than usual), instead you head for Plymouth and maybe it's even steamed to France in the meanwhile buying you even more time. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find an instance of that happening. The route between Southampton and New York was generally a direct one, and stopping a liner at sea for one passenger rather defeats the point of a premium high-speed service. I stand to be corrected however. 12:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm... some of the German liners left from Hamburg, and stopped at Southampton before continuing to New York. I don’t know if it was possible to travel from Hamburg to Southampton fast enough, but that would be the only situation in which you could “catch up” to the ship in another port. Once the ship left Southampton (or New York on the east bound passage), it was non-stop.

Technically, it would have been possible to hire a speedboat (faster than a liner over short distances)... thus “catching up” to the liner while it was underway, and transferring at sea. But I have never read of this actually happening.

I have read accounts of liners delaying their departure by an hour or so because someone important (ie very rich or politically connected) was running late. Blueboar (talk) 13:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Did they have way(s) to make up some or all of that hour? (though of course anyone prudent would account for the possibility of a ~5 day voyage taking an hour longer) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Even if top sustainable speed didn't cost more maintenance/depreciation (I don't know) it seems possible doing that every trip might not be the way to maximize ticket cost minus expenses (i.e. fuel)? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:03, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe if it was the UK monarch? It does seem unlikely they'd get a sudden desperate need to get to America FAST, at least in the small time history gave us, if the world froze at that level of technology for enough millennia it'd probably happen eventually. Did any of them ever stop at Germany then a more western part of Europe then America? Would train schedules then allow catching them at a later scheduled stop? The Titanic was Southampton to New York with 2 stops but then again it was never the world's fastest and even if one of them did take that route the train(s) west would have to make up for the trans-Irish Sea ship's slowness. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Well... Most of the Monarchs had their own private Royal Yachts, and didn’t need to use liners (for a modern equivalent ... think of how the US President has Air Force One). Some of those yachts were faster than the Blue Riband liners. And if a monarch were in a real rush, warships were significantly faster. Blueboar (talk) 14:04, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Why wasn't this technology used for ocean liners then? Why were these yachts so fast despite their short waterline? Planing hulls? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Woops... After double checking... smaller yachts were NOT faster faster than the liners (I confused acceleration speeds with top speed).

Something I forgot to mention above... if you were late for a liner’s departure, it was sometimes possible to get a ride out to the ship on the pilot boat. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Why didn't the pilot get on before the gap was too far to jump? Who was commander of the tugboat captains till the pilot got to the bridge then? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The pilot boards the ship before it leaves the dock, and says on while he guides it out of the harbor (directing the tugs, and the liner’s crew)... but he has to get OFF the ship once it is safely out of the harbor... so a pilot boat goes out to get him. A late passenger can sometimes hitch a ride (for a hefty fee) on that pilot boat. Blueboar (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh I would've guessed the boat that took the pilot back left first to avoid complicating things (leaving after gives the port authority the occasional extra hefty fee though I suppose). Where did the pilot get off? After the Isle of Wight? New York Bight? How was the transfer done? Was there a short bridge or rope ladder or something? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

See this pilotage map for Southampton, the outer limit is the Nab Tower, just east of the Isle of Wight. The pilot has to make negotiate a precarious rope ladder like this. Not for the faint hearted. Alansplodge (talk) 18:30, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The Thief: Isaac Bell #5 by Clive Cussler, Justin Scott (Ch. 48) has a fictional account of the hero persuading an oyster boat master to take him out to a pilot cutter, from where he hopes to board RMS Mauretania which has just left New York. In Around the World in 80 Days by Jules Verne, Phileas Fogg bribes a pilot in Hong Kong to take him to Yokohama in Japan, 1,650 miles away, in order to catch a missed liner. Alansplodge (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Sometimes the pilot boats aren't even based at the same port as they serve. I don't know about Southampton, but I know that the pilot boats for the port of Antwerpen are based at Vlissingen, about 75 kilometres (40 NM) away, close to the point where the pilots get on and of the ships. As the ships can't go very fast on the river, that takes about 3 hours. The train from Antwerpen to Vlissingen takes a bit less than 2 hours according to the modern timetable (a bit of a detour and not a very good connection), so if you miss your ocean liner from Antwerpen, taking the train to Vlissingen and hopping on a pilot boat should work. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Oceanliners dock tens of kilometers from Vlissingen in America too. The narrow estuary also suddenly widens and deepens there so if the U.S. "Isle of Wight" wasn't bypassed the opposite direction the pilots might be based there too. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Good point, here is a Southampton pilot boat in Portsmouth harbour, more than 20 miles away from her home port, but much closer to the edge of the pilotage area. However, not sure that modern health & safety rules would permit passengers these day. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

<outdent>In the 1955 episode "Bon Voyage" on I Love Lucy, Lucy Ricardo missed the SS Constitution and then the pilot boat and was flown out to the ship by helicopter [1] [2]. This was obviously after Ricky Ricardo had become a big star. Acroterion (talk) 23:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

However, air travel was excluded in the question. --76.69.118.94 (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Mail tender suggests one way. Not so much for the Blue Riband, but certainly for services along the St Lawrence, a fast train and a small ship from another port was used to speed the mails. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:06, 5 June 2018 (UTC)