Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 August 25

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August 25

Hotter the fire, the stronger the steel?

Trying to find who or how this saying originated and used all the usual suspects of google news, etc. I did manage to find a much earlier term about "the hotter the forge, the stronger the sword". Would love to know if the the "steel" saying can be attributed to someone in particular or if there is any evidence that it is for sure just a folk saying. Thanks in advance! ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 00:49, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Blimey, I've never heard it before, but it's all over the internet! However, the only Google Books result for that exact phrase is a parenting book published in 2012. Alansplodge (talk) 07:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

DAVIS' ANTHOLOGY OF NEWSPAPER VERSE for 1938. The poem "Whetstone", sent by E. H. Clements to the Boston Post, has these lines. Now can someone find out who E.H. Clements was, and the exact issue of the newspaper! 184.147.116.153 (talk) 12:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

"The book will also include the 'Poem of Vinland', delivered at Watertown by Mr. E. H. Clements of the Boston Transcript." appears in The Literary World: Volume 20 (1889) page 488.

Sadakichi Hartmann: Critical Modernist : Collected Art Writings edited by Jane Calhoun Weaver says "But I must not forget the veteran art critic Downes, and Hurd, a genuine book reviewer of the old school, both on the Boston Evening Transcript, which was presided over by E. H. Clements, probably the most popular and influential newspaper about town" referring to Boston in the late 1880s. Alansplodge (talk) 16:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Our article on the newspaper mentions Edward Henry Clement, editor-in-chief (1881–1906). Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The Booker T. Washington Papers: 1899-1900 by Booker T. Washington gives Clements' dates as 1843 - 1920. Apparently he campaigned for black civil rights. Alansplodge (talk) 16:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, especially Alansplodge, I think this solves it. Thou this isn't a definite that poem would most likely be the first published. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 23:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Almost enough for an article - some biographical details in The Correspondence of W. E. B. Du Bois: Selections, 1877-1934, by William Edward Burghardt Du Bois; "he was also a playwright and poet". Alansplodge (talk) 23:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

And this is what he looked like. Alansplodge (talk) 23:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually,overheating the steel is not a good idea at all. http://science.howstuffworks.com/sword-making5.htm Hotclaws (talk) 03:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Castrato in the choir

I was reading the article on Castrato, and this caught my attention:

The Catholic Church's involvement in the castrato phenomenon has long been controversial, and there have recently been calls for it to issue an official apology for its role. As early as 1748, Pope Benedict XIV tried to ban castrati from churches, but such was their popularity at the time that he realised that doing so might result in a drastic decline in church attendance.

Women were banned by the Pauline dictum mulieres in ecclesiis taceant ("let women keep silent in church"; see I Corinthians, ch 14, v 34).

Why were Castrati used in the first place, when the Roman Catholic Church could have used women and girls to sing? Why was singing lumped with preaching and teaching? Why were castrati popular during Pope Benedict XIV's time? What is the correct pronunciation of 'Castrati'? How is the 'i' pronounced - long i sound or short i sound? Similarly, how is 'cacti' pronounced - long i sound or short i sound? Sneazy (talk) 02:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Although the castrato sings in the same range as some female choir members (Counter-Tenor and Alto, respectively), they are by no means interchangeable. It may be likened to a large brass instrument that resonates throughout a church, yet has the delicately floating (leggiero) sound of a flute. The castrato is an entirely different "instrument." I am not condoning the practice. It is definitely a horrendous means to create a thing of beauty. As to your second question, singing has been associated with Christian preaching and teaching (or praise) for a very long time; Psalms is the biggest book of The Bible. Also, when under persecution, The Apostle Paul and his comrades sang through the night (Acts 16:25). Finally, perhaps it was so popular in that particular time period because music was itself at a crossroads; music historians say The Baroque Period lasted from 1600-1760, yet The Classical Period lasted from 1730-1820. Mozart himself was born in the next-to-last year of Benedict XIV's reign, whereas J. S. Bach died only 6 years earlier, during the same Pope's lifetime. Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 04:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

On the pronunciation: Castrati is usually pronounced "kah-STRAHT-ee", approximating the Italian pronunciation. The most frequent pronunciation of cacti is "kak-ty" (the last vowel like that in "my"), but "kak-tee" is an acceptable alternative pronunciation. (Information from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.) Deor (talk) 11:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The treble or boy soprano voice has traditionally been used to sing the melody or descant in church music, however just a boy's voice gets towards producing any power, and the owner learns the skills necessary to use it, it's gone for ever. I suspect that castration would have originally been a way of keeping the best trebles after puberty, but it was then found that castrati had qualities of their own, as Schyler says. Note that castrati were only used in churches in Italy; elsewhere they were viewed with some disgust (I'm struggling to find a reference for that). Women were allowed to sing in religious communities, and Antonio Vivaldi famously wrote music for a girls orphanage, which was within a convent. Some information in Historical Dictionary of Opera By Scott L. Balthazar. Note that a girl's voice was widely believed to be inferior to a boy's, a myth that wasn't disproved until the late 20th century. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you provide some context for that last sentence? Matt Deres (talk) 14:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

In the Anglican choral tradition (which is distinct from, but has its roots in the Catholic tradition) it was men and boys only in English cathedrals until 1991 when Salisbury Cathedral founded a girls' choir. This article says;boys and girls sound quite different, says Flood (the choirmaster). 'A boy's voice in the year or so before it breaks has a particularly magical quality,' he explains. 'It is more powerful than a girl's.' Female voices do not reach their peak until much later, according to Flood."

This article says; "And yet, surprisingly perhaps, research has cast doubt on listeners' ability to tell boy and girl singers apart. A number of studies have been done in the 15 years since girls' cathedral choirs began, with varying results. The most thorough and up-to-date is from Professor David M Howard of York University. He recorded 20 snippets of the boys' and girls' choirs of Wells Cathedral performing with adult accompaniment. 'So long as they are singing the same material with the same acoustics and have had the same training, people simply can't tell the difference,' he says. 'It does depend upon the material though. If they are singing something that includes the notes from the C above middle C to the F above that, those can give the game away.'" Alansplodge (talk) 14:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Matt Deres (talk) 14:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. I stand corrected on castrati not being employed in churches outside Italy; "The church castrati survived much longer, in the Catholic electorates, principalities and kingdoms in Germany; and, in the country of their origin, Italy." [1] Alansplodge (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Totalitarianism and authoritarianism

Is there a real difference between these two terms? It seems to me that "totalitarianism" is a very specific phenomenon, like capitalism or socialism, while "authoritarianism" is a reference to the amount of control a government wields. — Melab±1 ☎ 05:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Have you read the articles "Authoritarianism" and "Totalitarianism"? Gabbe (talk) 09:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I would think that totalitarian usually refers to the type of government that exhibits total control over the state whereas authoritarian usually refers to the type of personality that exhibits bossiness over other people. An authoritarian government is one that has the people in unquestionable servitude of the government. Basically, you can think of authoritarianism and totalitarianism as describing the same thing but on two different sides. For totalitarianism, it is describing the government side. For authoritarianism, it is describing the people's side. Sneazy (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Jeane Kirkpatrick wrote a famous essay on this, "Dictatorships and Double Standards" see our article Kirkpatrick Doctrine. Basically, authoritarians are concerned with maintaining power, and may be pragmatic, (e.g., Qaddafi, Francisco Franco) while totalitarians are concerned with an ideology (Nazism, communism) which they will enforce even to their own and their country's ruin (Hitler, Pol Pot). μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes but it shouldn't be attributed to her, since she was just popularizing a distinction often made in the technical literature, and of course she framed it to fit American interests. Franco was well, authoritarian, though the 27 point doctrine of the Falange, and many other writings of the period, explicitly defined the Spain he wished to create as 'totalitarian'. One could just as well call such ccases like Span 1938-46 'inept totalitarianism' as much as 'authoritarianism' :) Totalitarian powers subordinate every imaginable thing to a state interest, 'inept totalitarianisms' are just bungled versions, based on backward bureaucracies and the like, which never quite manage to permeate every corner of the ramshackle states they inhabit. Which means, totalitarianism have a developmental state drive that classic 'authoritarian' states lack, being conservative rather than revolutionary.Nishidani (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Neither Cuba, nor Spain, nor Russia, nor Germany, was ramshackle before their statist regimes of the left or right took power, although they were corrupt or in crisis, or both. Kirkpatrick gives a definition and makes an argument. As an historical accident, after the destruction of Nazism, the expansive totalitarian states were mostly on the left. I don't think that was at all relevant to Kirkpatrick, who'd have preferred an alliance with leftist welfare states to rightist totalitarian ones (Japan, Germany) given the chance. Even then, the insistence on distinguishing left from right (National Socialist) is pretty pointless in such a context. μηδείς (talk) 00:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, the distinguishing between left and right totalitarian ideologies isn't pointless when you consider what each instance is about. The one thing they certainly have in common is subordinating some group of people to a master goal and then implementing total control to bring each person into line with said goal. Beyond that, it differs. Fascism is hierarchical and communism is egalitarian. Fascism [tries to] unite everyone and communism makes everyone into a worker. In Japan, everyone was to submit to Hirohito (supposedly it was really the military calling the shots). In Soviet Russia, everyone had to work together for themselves. Who is to blame for totalitarianism? Well, I've heard both Rousseau (though I don't understand why) and Hegel. — Melab±1 ☎ 01:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I am democratic, you are authoritarian, she is a totalitarian. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

What? — Melab±1 ☎ 23:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a standard form of English expression used to indicate that the words used is a matter of bias or politeness, rather than differentiating fundamental differences. Each of the people mentioned is actually exactly the same. "I am eccentric, you're weird, he's a loon." (We are all actually insane.) "I am bohemian, you're dirty, he is filthy." (We all actually need a bath.) In this expression: I represent myself as the best, you are kind of iffy, and a third person not part of this conversation is reviled. I'm using the expression to indicate that the words are meaninglessly decontextualised with no theoretical value. This is one common interpretation amongst scholars. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't that Twain? μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Irregular Emotions according to Bertie according to here. If we don't we should probably have an article. But of course we do Emotive conjugation Fifelfoo (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

See the episode of Yes Prime Minister called "The Bishop's Gambit", about 28 mins in. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Contextualizing quotations placed above poems

Not uncommonly when a poem is written on a narrow but fairly unfamiliar topic (such as a minor current or historical event), the poet places above the poem a short quotation, typically from a newspaper report, to provide the reader with some context. Is there a term of art for this practice? —Psychonaut (talk) 10:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Epigraph (literature)? Deor (talk) 10:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm… I hadn't thought of that. I suppose this is a particular type of epigraph. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

discrepenacy

Theres a discrepency between the rank of Wiki Commons used on this page (156), to the one on the list page where Fox News is ranked at 156. Why is that? Pass a Method talk 16:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

This website may shed some light. It looks like Wikimedia is really a multilingual corporation. FoxNews, on the other hand, is an American-based company. Sneazy (talk) 16:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

They use different time periods. The mouseover on '?' at your first link says "The rank is calculated using a combination of average daily visitors to this site and pageviews on this site over the past 3 months." For your second link it says "The sites in the top sites lists are ordered by their 1 month alexa traffic rank. The 1 month rank is calculated using a combination of average daily visitors and pageviews over the past month." PrimeHunter (talk) 11:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

How many Bitcoins have been permanently destroyed/lost?

How many Bitcoins have been permanently destroyed or lost? Also, is there a point at which the avg number of bitcoins being created will be overtaken by the average number of bitcoins lost per rate of time? If so, when is that point likely to be? 216.114.215.239 (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

For readers who (like me) have no idea what this is about - see Bitcoin. I'm not much wiser after reading it. Alansplodge (talk) 23:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Me neither. "Blog" took a minute to comprehend. "Facebook" about a day. "Too big to fail" a week or so. "Bitcoin" is six months and counting. Is the singularity near? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Bitcoins represent an attempt by a group of programmers to create a new kind of currency, a virtual currency that is supposed to be completely invulnerable to manipulation, and therefore totally reliable. Each "coin" is associated with a very large number, which is assigned and transferred using crytographic techniques. The goal was to create the most stable currency in history -- like gold on steroids. The actual result so far has been to create one of the least stable currencies in history. Looie496 (talk) 00:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Add to it that nobody really know what's going on with it: scams, illegal business, terrorism? Who can guarantee me that they are not going on? OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I can guarantee that Bitcoin is being used for illegal business: the Silk Road drug marketplace deals exclusively in Bitcoin. --Carnildo (talk) 01:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I doubt you'll find any source with an answer. There is no way of knowing if a bitcoin wallet has been permanently lost unless you're told by the person who owned it, and there's no reason for most people to report the loss of their wallet. Jessica Ryan (talk) 11:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

There'd be no way of telling if a bitcoin wallet was lost, per se (unless the owner reports it), but does anyone keep track of the number of inactive wallets (untouched for many months), which would give the OP some indication? (By the way, you might get a better answer to this question on the Computers and IT reference desk, rather than here). 203.45.95.236 (talk) 13:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Dr Marten boots history

Why isn't there anything mentioned on the Wikipedia page about the History of Dr Martens boots, saying the very first boots were made for disabled kids to give them good ankle support ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanna6573 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I've heard this story claimed to be true before, but then I've heard all kinds of false things claimed to be true too. The reason Wikipedia doesn't repeat this claim is because there isn't a reliable source which confirms it. Do you know of one? If not, you should probably believe the reliable sources about the footwear which Wikipedia does cite, not some urban legend. 146.90.107.75 (talk) 00:20, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The Dr Martens website says; "Munich-based Dr Maertens and his university friend Dr Funck were also different. Inventors, mavericks, free-thinkers, ditto. In response to a foot injury on a ski-ing trip, they'd invented an air-cushioned sole...". And they should know, if anybody does. They missed a bit of a trick by not calling them "Dr Funck Boots" - how cool would that have been? Alansplodge (talk) 11:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)