Wikipedia:Peer review/Paper Mario: The Origami King/archive1

Paper Mario: The Origami King

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

This peer review discussion is closed.

.

I've listed this article for peer review because I'm starting a process on getting this article to Featured Article status.

Any person without knowledge of the game (or video games in general) would especially be helpful, to deal with prose and difficult to understand writing. The article has good sources according to WP:VG/RS. I'd appreciate any suggestions, big or small, to make this article as good as it can be. It will make the Featured Article review much easier.

One specific question I do have though. Would it be proper to add a legacy subsection in Reception, according to WP:VG/MOS? This section would talk about the reviews that claimed it is the best action adventure game in the series (Compared to Paper Mario Sticker Star and Paper Mario Color Splash), as well as their spirit addition in Smash Ultimate.

Thanks, Le Panini ^Talk 03:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: when you close this peer review, please be sure to remove it from Template:FAC peer review sidebar. And please consider adding the sidebar to your userpage so you can help out at Peer review! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Noted. I put the sidebar on my talkpage. Any suggestions for the article? Le Panini ^Talk 16:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It’s on my list ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Spicy

I'll have a look at this one too. At a glance, the article needs going over for grammatical and spelling errors, e.g. the player ... explore a liner open world. Be mindful of repetitive wording: Origami and confetti were suggested as a way to implement paper concepts in a new way. More to come... Spicy (talk) 13:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I make a lot of grammar typos that I can never spot, so I believe it. I sent a request to the Guild of copy-editors a while back, and I'm still waiting on a response. Le Panini ^Talk 14:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Starting. My credentials (or lack thereof): I have a general familiarity with video games, as the average person under ~35 years old does, but I don't consider myself a "gamer" and I've never played this particular game. I did play the original Paper Mario as a kid.

Lead

What are the purpose of the citations in the infobox? They seem to be placed somewhat randomly.
The first citation I believe is because the director's name is not mentioned elsewhere in the article, so It's there to verify. The secon link is because deciding the genre of the game is a very controversial discussion - check the archive of the talk page to see what I mean. I think other editors linked it to verify as well. Thoughts?
The lead sentence describes the game's genre as "cross-genre". This is vague and doesn't tell the reader anything. Is it a cross of a strategy game and a point and click adventure... a cross of a rhythm game and a horror game... who knows? We don't learn what genres the game actually incorporates until the end of the paragraph.
Done. Did some re-organization.
I wouldn't bother to link "console". See WP:OVERLINK and WP:SEAOFBLUE.
Done.
I'd be inclined to link or rephrase "leak" - it's a little jargony IMO. I'd like to hear Sandy's opinion on this as I get the impression she's less up to speed on video game terminology than I am :p
Done. Was thinking about doing it anyways, don't know why I didn't.
Link E3, non-gamers will not know what this is
Done.
The game was planned to be announced at E3 2020 as part of a presentation celebrating the Super Mario series' 35th anniversary but was announced via a trailer on May 14, 2020 due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Repetition (see bold). Somewhat unclear syntax... I assume you're saying that E3 was cancelled due to COVID so it was announced online instead? Better to state the course of events explicitly
Done.
sets on a journey I believe it's "sets out on a journey"
Done.
Link origami
Done.
must free the castle from five streamers across all the Kingdom what in the world does "streamers" mean here? My first thought was video game streamers, but that can't be right. The streamers are "across all the kingdom" but they're also in the castle? And what castle is this, exactly?
Done. I could use your opinion on the rephrasing, however. There is no article about decorative streamers I could link to so I had to improvise.

More to come Spicy (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

featuring a large overworld with turn-based enemy and boss encounters that utilize a ring-based puzzle system. Too much gamer jargon... I would link or rephrase overworld; there is probably a more understandable way to say "turn-based enemy and boss encounters". "Players fight enemies in a turn-based combat system"? ("boss" is a subset of "enemy" so not sure it's necessary to mention them explicitly). I don't know what a "ring-based puzzle system" is. Like a wrestling ring? or like Sonic? Needs more explanation...
Done.
The third paragraph is very repetitive, it reiterates over and over that the developers intended it to be a "new experience". From skimming the article body this seems to be based on interviews with the developers, i.e., not independent sources, so I'm not sure how useful this information is Some consideration of due weight is needed - the developers have a vested interest in promoting their game, so of course they are going to say it's new and exciting.
Done. Someone else did copy-editing before I could.
changed the traditional gameplay to an open world format - people who haven't played the original games won't know what "the traditional gameplay" is. I'd link open world
Done.
used characters directly involved with the Mario franchise. - Why is the fact that a Mario game uses Mario characters worth noting?
Actually, there's a reason. The original games took pre-existing characters of the Mario franchise and expanded upon them, making an entire new character. If that was not the case, they created a new character entirely. For a while now, Nintendo hasn't been allowing them to do that, so they've just simply been using Luigi, or other enemies like a goomba, for example. Since they can't make new characters, they've been using other-worldly creatures, hence the origami.
The game released July 17, 2020. - already stated in first paragraph. TBC... Spicy (talk) 17:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
Critics ... critiqued repetitive
Done. Change to reviewers.
swaying from the original RPG style - I think you mean "straying from"? You should probably spell "role-playing game" style out in full since this acronym hasn't been introduced before
Done.
Reception on the ring style combat - I think it's "reception of" (might be an ENGVAR thing?) "ring-style" needs a hyphen and consider rephrasing it entirely to make it more clear what it means...
Done.

Gameplay

The use of two non-free images which demonstrate the same gameplay aspect (ring-style combat) seems excessive to me. Fair use content should be kept to a minimum per WP:NFCC. At FAC, you'll need better rationales for the NFCC criteria than "n.a.".
Done. Changed to something more useful.
the player controls a two dimensional paper version of Mario, and explore - "explores" (agreement)
Done.
In these spaces - which spaces? the whole world?
Done. I changed it to just "space", in reference to the whole world.
other collectibles - How are "collectibles" different from "items"? "Other" isn't needed here, in any case
Done. Used better clarification.
Hidden toads are also scattered around "toad" without capitalization implies the animal, not the character! What do the Toads do? All the article tells us is that they exist - why?
Done. They're just collectible if a player wants to 100%.
Actually, this isn't entirely accurate. The Toads can be paid in battle to heal Mario and help arrange the enemies to get them closer to the proper solution. Scrooge200 (talk) 17:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Certain" can usually be removed, or replaced with "some"
Done.
Additionally, Mario is given a bag of confetti, - "is given"... by whom... does it matter? Is it possible to just say something like "Mario can fill holes in the environment using a bag of confetti?" (I haven't checked the sources so maybe I am missing some nuance here)
Done.
into contact with one or more enemies "one or more" is not really necessary
If one enemy approaches, few enemies will be on the board. If two enemies approach, many enemies will be on the board. If there's three or more, there will be a wave battle, but I think this is all excessive detail. The one or more does kinda serve a purpose.
with 12 radial slots, with each enemy occupying a different slot I think "...radial slots; each enemy occupies a different slot." would sound better here; see User:Tony1/Noun plus -ing. Spicy (talk) 18:04, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
During the player's turn and prior to attacking, he can slide the rings in horizontal or vertical directions to shift enemies around the arena, limited both by a timer and a set number of rotations, in order to group them such that as many enemies could be attacked at once. - this is a bit of a rough read. Some awkward phrasing and too much going on in one sentence. How about something like "At the start of the player's turn, he can slide the rings horizontally or vertically to position enemies so that several of them can be attacked at once. The player is allotted a limited amount of time and number of rotations."
Done. Sounds good to me; Ctrl c Ctrl v
- The use of "he" strikes me as a bit odd here. I feel like I rarely see that in WP articles... usually it is "they", or the article avoids pronouns entirely. But I have no idea if there's an actual guideline on this.
Once the player has finished shifting the enemies, he can then attack with a hammer, - "then" isn't necessary here. (It rarely is)
Done.
target a single line of enemies - not sure what this means
Done. It was changed, so I reverted it back to my original phrasing.
The player could also instead use various items that can attack enemies with varying power, or heal the player's heart points. - Why "could" and not "can"? "Also" and "various" are not necessary (again, rarely are). This is pedantic, but isn't it the character that gets healed, not the HP - you could say "increase the player's heart points" instead.
Done.
The player's attack power is boosted during a turn if all enemies had been moved to the optimal solution - tense? why not "have been"? I have no idea what is meant by "the optimal solution". Is this the ring position that maximizes the number of enemies targeted or something like that?
Done. That's exactly what it is :)
Boss battles follow a similar pattern of ring style combat, but rather put the enemy in the center and Mario on the outside - ring-style needs a hyphen. "Rather" is redundant.
Done.
Arrows are placed on the ground - talking about where the arrows are placed before explaining what they do is confusing.
Done.
attack tiles or magic circle tiles. Battle tiles can be activated by simply passing on, while magic circle tiles need to be activated by passing an "ON" tile. The different types of tiles and what they do need to be explained in more depth. It's not clear what any of this means to me
Now, its hard to explain this in sentence format. Would you suggest making something like, "There are certain tiles that will appear in many of these battles", and then a bulleted list of types of tiles?
scattered around - around the arena? just saying "around" sounds informal
Done.
Each boss comes with certain gimmicks, and have different solutions on how to beat them - "Comes with" is informal - why not "has"? - and is "gimmick" the right word? Seems vague - a gimmick can be many things, from a character design to a catchphrase to a style of battle. The second clause is grammatically incorrect, and I'm not sure what it means. Is it saying that players need to use a specific strategy to defeat each boss, or that bosses can be defeated using multiple strategies? The next sentence implies the former...
Done.
fixe exposed body parts - five
Done. spel -_- ling

Plot

@Spicy: Now before I do this part, I have a comment. The plot section, according to WP:VG/PLOT, should only be 700 words long to retain focus. Right now, its 690-ish. We had to cut a lot of the plot to just barely squeeze into this restriction. For example, when you wrote about how I probably didn't intend to link to the article about the office supplies, I actually did. The characters are known as the "Legion of Stationery", a group of anthropomorphic office supplies with different personalities, all guarding the streamers. Colored Pencils is a cocky artist, and Hole Punch is a dancer who punched out the Toad's faces to get more attention toward them self. Do you want to change or remove any suggestions, or comment on this issue?

For now, however, I'll do the suggestions that shorten the section. Le Panini ^Talk 01:07, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- I see other reviewers have mentioned drastically trimming the plot section. It did feel a bit long to me but I'm not familiar with what the MOS says about that so I didn't comment on it. As such, most of my comments won't be actionable but w.r.t. the office supplies, when you capitalize the names and use them as proper nouns I'd expect them to go to articles about the character, not about the object. It is usually unnecessary to link common objects like "stapler" and "pencils", per WP:OVERLINK. Spicy (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Lot of the plot was cut.
Mario and Luigi are invited by Princess Peach to an Origami Festival near her castle in Toad Town. However, the town is abandoned and Peach has been turned into origami and brainwashed by King Olly. - need to give a sense of time passing here; presumably Peach hadn't been brainwashed and turned into origami when she invited them to the festival?? I haven't played the game so I have no idea if this is correct or not, but just guessing, could you say something like "Once Mario and Luigi arrive at the town, they realize it is abandoned..." Who is King Olly? I'm familiar with the Mario series but I've never heard of this character before.
Done. More detail in other sections.
Many of Bowser's minions have met a similar fate, being transformed into origami enemies called Folded Soldiers, with Bowser being folded and stapled into a square. "with plus -ing" issues again. And tense. How about: "Many of Bowser's minions have met a similar fate, having been transformed into origami enemies called Folded Soldiers. Bowser himself has been folded and stapled into a square."
Done.
Mario rescues Olivia, the sister of Olly, and eventually Bowser ambiguous; are you saying that Olivia is Olly's sister - or is Olly's sister a different person?
Done.
but the trio are separated - how? Spicy (talk)
Done.
many of the toads again, this should be capitalized to make it clear that you're referring to the character
Done.
the guardian of the red streamer, Colored Pencils. I don't think you meant to link to an article about actual pencils
defeating Rubber Band and destroy the streamer - "and destroying"
Done.
After defeating Hole Punch again, you probably didn't mean to link to office supplies. It would be helpful to explain who/what "Hole Punch" is.
Mario and Olivia defeat Tape same link issue, happens a few other times throughout this section
Done.
At Shangri-Spa, Mario and Olivia find that Bowser's Castle has crash-landed there -> "Mario and Olivia find that Bowser's Castle has crash-landed at Shangri-Spa."
Done.
after being attacked Olly's squadron of paper airplanes. "attacked by"
Done.
The three confront King Olly, where he reveals - "who reveals"
Done.
Olivia reads the writing on his body - ok, so by "writing on his paper" above you meant that the Toad wrote on Olly's body, and not just some paper he had lying around? This should be clarified
Done.
revealing that the Toad who wrote it actually only sent his wishes to Olly that he would be "a fair and kind king", making Olly realize his mistake. bit awkward.. I'd rephrase this to something like "revealing that the Toad only meant to send good wishes to Olly. Olly realizes his mistake, and at his request..."

Well exCUUUSE ME, PRinCESS. THIS IS A HEARTFELT MOMENT!

Just kidding. Done.

Olivia uses his paper to fold him into the 1000th crane - the paper is his body, yes? So can you simply say "Olivia folds him into the 1000th crane"? Spicy (talk) 20:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.

General

There are several duplicate links; people will complain about that at FAC. You can install the User:Ucucha/duplinks script to highlight them. Spicy (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.

Concluding remarks

I went through about half of the article. What remains is the "Development" and "Reception" sections. I'm not too familiar with the conventions for video game articles, and other reviewers have already given you good advice on how to improve these sections, so I'll hold off on doing an in-depth review of these sections. But I have some general comments:

I agree with Czar that the gameplay section is difficult for someone who has not played the game to understand. I don't normally edit video game articles, but I do edit medical articles, where making things easy to understand for general readers can be a challenge. The best advice I ever read on this point was something along the lines of "imagine you are writing for an intelligent fourteen-year-old who knows nothing about the topic, but wants to learn". Don't oversimplify things, but don't assume the reader knows what you know, either.
A GOCE copyedit should help to iron out the remaining prose issues. Spicy (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Spicy:Oh, I asked for a copy-edit there a while back. Still waiting on it. Thank you so much for your suggestions! They were very helpful. I'll be sure to give you a barnstar later.

SandyGeorgia

Le Panini, I have four peer reviews and multiple FACs ahead of you in line but you're in good hands with Spicy. Might I suggest you read through User:SandyGeorgia/Achieving excellence through featured content? It is aimed at medical editors, but the general advice and in particular the links at the bottom should be helpful, and I suggest reading through all of them. For this article, WP:RECEPTION should be especially useful. I will look in after Spicy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do that. Thank you Sandy (from Georgia)! Le Panini ^Talk 14:38, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For now, though, I did a copy edit of the reception section, doing my best to avoid an exhausted use of "A said B". Le Panini ^Talk 15:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Le Panini, you have certainly taken to heart the way to approach PR, which bodes well! There may be little left for me to pick at ... starting in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:06, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You can install this script; we only use hyphens as hyphens :)
You can install this script to keep your dates consistent.
On sources that are not in English, please use the |trans-title= parameter in the citation template to give readers a clue about the English-language translated title of the source.
@SandyGeorgia: How should I translate the title? Translating the Jeuxvideo.com review title responds with "Paper Mario: The Origami King - The End of an RPG, The Beginning of an Adventure". Le Panini ^Talk 20:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't speak Japanese, and in the languages I do speak, I tend to not be happy with I get from online translators. Presumably the person who added that source could read it? Perhaps Nihonjoe can help? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:37, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Japanese title translates as "Paper Mario: Origami King". It's an English title in katakana. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 20:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, didn't even see this reply. Thanks! Le Panini ^Talk 04:03, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A MOS:LQ review is needed.

Prose

Only random things I notice, not comprehensive:

There are eight instances of the word however, and I have never yet encountered an article that needed so many: review for overuse of however]
Done.
There are eight instances of the word also, which is almost always redundant. Please review the writing exercises from Tony1 that are linked in my essay.
Done.
The announcement did not come with the prior two day notice ... two-day is hyphenated in this instance.
Done.
In August 28, Olivia, King Olly, --> On August 28 ???
Done.
In The Origami King, the player controls a two dimensional paper version ... two-dimensional should be hyphenated in this case.
Done.
Watch for the need to vary wording ... The Origami King was developed by ... the developer ... find a way to rewrite the sentence to avoid using the same word twice in the same sentence, sample only, check throughout.
Done.
were examples to the concept ... were examples of the concept?
Done.
The word claimed is used seven times ... take care with WP:WTA.

I tend to provide an overview rather than nitpicking prose, but I think some more in-depth prose work might be called for before you launch the FAC. Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get to this soon. Right now my family is doing a lot of Christmas stuff. Thanks for the input! Le Panini ^Talk 20:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need to respond to me, or to check off items, unless you need further feedback from me. Unlike FAC, the beauty of PR is that we are only here to give you advice that might help, and we don't have to track what is done and not done ... one of the tedious things that we must do at FAC, as we must indicate to the Coords what has been addressed. (By the way, remember when you get to FAC ... no checkmarks :) I also suggest not rushing through the final phase of copyediting. It can be helpful to set the article aside for several days, and come back to it fresh. It can also be helpful to print the article out and read it with a red pen in hand :) Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme

I'm here by invitation and see the article is currently under review by 2 excellent reviewers. I tend to focus on leads so my first suggestion is to tweak the 1st paragraph of the lead beginning with the 3rd sentence which reads a bit choppy. I came up with the following: Plans for a new Paper Mario game were leaked in early 2020, ahead of the official announcement that was to occur at E3 2020 during the 35th anniversary celebration of the Super Mario series; however, that event was cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic. On May 14, 2020 Nintendo released an announcement trailer, and followed-up a few months later on July 17 by releasing the game. I didn't wikilink anything, so you can add where necessary. Atsme 💬 📧 16:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: I used your suggestion, but modified it just a liiiiiitle but. Is it alright? Le Panini ^Talk 17:08, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme 💬 📧 18:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now that the article is in the final stages of review, my only concern is the length and detail of the Plot section. It reads closer to gameplay. The rest is ready to go. Atsme 💬 📧 10:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: I cut down most of the plot, leaving just a simple "Mario follows the streamers" thing with key plot points. Is this good? Le Panini ^Talk 11:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Panini, re Plot: ...but they soon discover that the town is abandoned. If the town is abandoned, where did they discover the brainwashing, etc.?? Atsme 💬 📧 14:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: I clarified it a bit more. Le Panini ^Talk 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's the gameplay details that need to go, such as ...along the way they meet an amnesiac Bob-omb without a fuse that Olivia nicknames "Bobby". Celebratory fireworks are launched after the they clear the blue streamer, causing Bobby to regain his memory. How about condensing it into something like...along the way they unravel streamers and encounter various problems along the way, including...(main actions). The plot should read more like a synopsis, not a detailed summary; i.e., major plot points, (a) the inciting incident, (b) major actions that arise from it, (c) the climax and (d) final resolution. Atsme 💬 📧 15:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: I've mentioned Bobby because he's received some notable reception, as it is mentioned in the Reception section. I did some changes. Le Panini ^Talk 16:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All the best - and good luck!! Atsme 💬 📧 17:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gerald Waldo Luis

Lead

"official announcement that was to occur at E3 2020..." Perhaps link E3 2020?
Done. However, E3 2020 was cancelled, and would be hard for a reader to understand what E3 is if that's what's linked. I linked the E3 article and E3 2020 article as two speparate things.
"cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic." Link COVID-19 pandemic?
Done.
"transformed into origami." Link origami?
Done.
"Origami and confetti..." Link confetti?
Done.
"one of the best-selling games on the Switch." I would rather change it to "one of the best-selling games on Nintendo Switch," as it is unclear what "Switch" it is.
Done. Good point

Gameplay

" "At the start of the player's turn, he can slide the rings horizontally or vertically to position enemies so that several of them can be attacked at once. The player is allotted a limited amount of time and number of rotations."" Why putting in quotations? Gerald WL 10:08, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Hehe, because someone suggested a new way to format the sentence so I copied and pasted. I guess I never cut out the quotations. Le Panini ^Talk 19:52, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

czar

Hi! Leaving some broad comments per the invite on my talk page. Just a note that this is mostly not a checklist but I think some capacities that you'll develop after writing multiple Wikipedia articles.

If the game is not mentioned by its Japanese name in our sources, it's trivia for the lede, even if as a footnote. Circumstances are different if the game was, for example, only released in Japan for years before its English release, but in this case it is known canonically by its Western, English-language name.
For the opening sentence, is knowledge of the publisher/dev really more important than, e.g., its genre or series affiliation?
Done. Changed it up just a bit.
The description of the combat system and its reception are inscrutable. Target audience is someone who knows what video games are but hasn't necessarily played one, and it'd be hard for them to understand, "In combat, the player can interact with a grid of rings under certain condition, creating optimal line-ups with the enemies on the board." I'd make this much more explicit.
Done. The gameplay section is gonna undergo changes as well.
My understanding is that the difficulty and nature of the puzzles were exceptional targets of criticism for this game, no? It doesn't come across in how the Reception is written.
Done. Reception was greatly changed to match this.
Gameplay: Is Mario exploring for coins? Or for the main story line? Even though the lede answers this, the dedicated section should only make minimal reference to the lede. Set up how this game works for someone unfamiliar with it.
Why are two images of the battle sequence needed? WP:NFCC#8
Done. Changed to a much more useful image.
The second screenshot is too small to discern the tile attributes mentioned in the caption
Done. Image is outta there.
This battle mechanic is going to be really difficult to explain properly. I wouldn't rush into FAC with this one, personally.
How would you suggest overcoming this, then? Maybe a list? A video? Is there a limit how in detail the section can go?
It can definitely be done in writing alone but I think it's complicated to explain. Fez (video game) was one of my first FACs and I really struggled with clearly explaining its core mechanics to a general audience. It's just something that becomes easier with writing simpler articles. czar 05:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: My only issue is making this section too long and making it unwieldy; how much detail can I go into? Does it not really matter as long as its properly explained? Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door goes into pretty lengthy detail. (I also left comments for other changes, by the way) Le Panini ^Talk 17:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's a balance. The Thousand Year Door is a good place to start but you can save on space by not going into the arithmetic (such as level-up bonuses). Think about how you'd explain its basic game mechanics to someone who has never played an RPG before and then source that info from reviews. czar 08:02, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Czar: I've added some more info about the overall main goal. Do you think the inclusion makes it better? Or should something else have more context? Le Panini ^Talk 02:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Plot is excessive. Do reviews go into depth re: plot? How do they cover the plot proportionate to other game elements, e.g., gameplay or battle system? Reflect that proportionality here. I'd wager you're looking at either a plot section a third of its current length or, my suggestion, a single paragraph folded into the existing Gameplay section.
Done.
year parenthetical needs comma per MOS:COMMA
Done.
Overquoting in Development and Reception. Paraphrase everything and quote as the exception, not the rule. There is almost always a way to express the thought cleaner than the original, except when the point being made is verbatim. The point of this paragraph is to give background on development, not to repeat verbatim the producer's comparison to prior series games.
Done.

Yep, I'll get to this in a bit. Before I joined in on editing the article, the development over-quoted, so I thought that was just okay.
"In regards to criticism about the game's lack of a number of role-playing game elements, Tanabe commented that" Rephrase this in your own voice. Don't tell us his response to the interview—instead, show us his approach to designing the game, and in so doing, leave us to understand why the game lacks role-playing game elements.
Done.
"The website calculated an 80/100 based on 114 reviews." As a reader, I don't know what to do with this information. Does the reviewer count make a difference? What is 80% vs. 90%? I'd remove this.
"Edge gave the game an 8/10, tying with Othercide for the highest rated title of the week in August 2020." Similarly not sure what to do with this either. Unless Otherside factors into Origami King's sales, it seems arbitrary that one publication said it was the highest rated title of whatever happened to launch that week.
Topic sentences aggregating reviewer views should have a combined citation
Could you clarify what you mean? Le Panini ^Talk 04:00, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Already covered this below but aggregated claims like "Critics praised XYZ" need direct citations (from X, Y, Z) czar 08:02, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I've been reading "citation" as "section" this whole time. Le Panini ^Talk 01:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done.

I see little gained from naming the review authors for each source inline. I'm not going to remember names like Meija if you invoke the name later. If anything, as a reader, I'll remember the opinion by the attributing news outlet. It's more telling to say XYZ praised the combat mechanics while ABC did not (with multiple citations) to then set up a discussion of how those thoughts compared. Varying the sentence structure can still leave the text reading as "A said B" (WP:RECEPTION) until the opinions can be juxtaposed (without becoming original research) to make a point about the game's overall Reception.
@Czar: Okay, let me see if I'm getting this right before I make bold changes. The reception section should sorta mash together comments that are similar across multiple sources (Like how everyone just thought the whole Bobby thing was sad) with citation. However, if a source has something different to say than the others, than they get the reviewer name and source for better explanation. Is that right? Le Panini ^Talk 05:25, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
More or less, yes, except I rarely attribute the author's name inline. If it's possible to combine the refs into a single sentence, it makes for easier comprehension of the main points of Reception. If useful for reference here are two of my last VG FAs: Donkey Kong 64#Reception, Rare Replay#Reception. Think about each paragraph as telling a story about the game and what facts from each of the reviews would contribute towards painting that picture. czar 05:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: I've done revisions to paragraphs 2 and 3, and started paragraph 4. How are they looking? Le Panini ^Talk 03:48, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Better! But a little backwards: It starts by saying the paragraph is going to be about writing and characters, but it isn't. Start with the sentence on worldbuilding and then use the additional details to explain just how "breathtaking" it was. This said, do all six of those sources talk about it being "breathtaking"? That sounds like an interpretive stretch, whereas "XYZABC reviewers praised the game's worldbuilding" is less interpretive. Also is there a way to say that without jargon? The fact that Olivia and Bobby were mentioned in reviews—does that make it a highlight for the game's Reception section? I would combine that with the sentence referencing praise for the writing/characters. czar 03:57, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I think I was gonna get to the characters and writing, and just never did. Le Panini ^Talk 04:19, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Czar: After a loss of about 3,000 bytes, how is it looking? Le Panini ^Talk 03:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely better than before. Be careful to avoid original research by asking "who?" with statements like "Olivia as a character was particularly enjoyed by critics, praising the character for her personality and emotion." If it sounds like it might infer all or most critics (which is an assessment us editors cannot make), rephrase. "Multiple reviewers praised Olivia's character personality in particular." I'd also ask why it's important to note that reviewers "liked" a character. Unless they have something to say about what "emotion" or "personality" means or impacts, I'd just as soon leave it out. czar 06:42, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: The reason I mention it is because the reviewers liked her for A) being an actually good primary ally (because a lot of them are annoying to a lot of people (remember Navi) and B) because of her heartfelt moments; like, the sad moments with her. I know there is a word for it that I just can't think of, so that's just how I have it. Can you find a better word or phrasing for this? Sorry if I've been bothering you, but you've been a lot of help thus far. Le Panini ^Talk 02:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To your question above re: Legacy section, I think it's too early for that. Points about being the best in the series belong in the intro paragraph of the Reception.

Well on your way! I think there are some major edits to make before nominating this. I'd also expect significant new reception to land in the next month with year-end GOTY lists. My recommendation is to attempt to address these in your own way and poke at it every couple of months. You will become more comfortable with Wikipedia style with editing more articles, reviewing more GAs and other FACs. I think you'll know it's ready when you can read it out loud to someone unfamiliar with the topic and have them say that every sentence was clear. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 23:36, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Czar: Thanks for the pointers! There's a lot of bold changes here, so I asked WPVG to get some other opinions on the big changes. Le Panini ^Talk 03:47, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ProtoDrake

@Le Panini: Here are some opening comments. I may come back for more.

This may just be stylistic, but I'd avoid using citations in the infobox.
Done.
The opening of the "Gameplay" paragraph is a little jarring in going straight into introducing the title after the lead as if you're very familiar, in particular as the game's combined genres aren't mentioned in the text after being used in the lead. If it's cross-genre, I think this should be cited in this section.
Done.
In the later sections, there seems to be to be an overuse of quotations in the prose, with several instances seeming not to need them and potentially working better with paraphrasing in the prose. While some quotes are acceptable, having one in sometimes every sentence or every other sentence is too many.
Done. I really only kept one major quote due to difficulty of paraphrasing, and kept minor "exact word" quotes.
There are two sections called "gameplay". I think the second one of these in the "Development" section should be changed to "game design".
Done. I changed it to "Game mechanics".

In essence, this article is alright, but stylistically I think it needs work to come up to modern FA standards. --ProtoDrake (talk) 12:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]