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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 26 October 2024 [1].

Robert Poore

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Nominator(s): AA (talk) 10:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Anglo-Irish sportsman and military officer Robert Poore. Hailing from an Ango-Irish family of some standing, he was a prolific first-class cricketer who, interestingly, played Test cricket for South Africa. Mostly associated at first-class level with Hampshire, he was known for his outstanding 1899 season when, between June and August he was the highest first-class run-scorer in England and averaged 116.58. In that time he made 304 against Somerset, which was the highest individual first-class score for Hampshire until it was surpassed by Dick Moore's 316 in 1937. His average in 21 innings across the season was 91.23, which was a record average for an English season, that was not broken until Don Bradman averaged 98.66 in 1930, and not surpassed by an English batsman until Herbert Sutcliffe averaged 96.96 in 1931. He was a multi-talented sportsman, having success in polo, tennis, racquets, squash, and was the best-man-at-arms in several of the British Armed Forces Royal Tournaments. He had a long and distinguished career in the British Army, serving in the Second Boer War and WW1 amongst others, and ending his career as a brigadier-general. The article has been reviewed by WP:CRIC members, who have made suggestions. As a sidenote, I don't think we have any Irish cricketers at FA! AA (talk) 10:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

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Because it's come up in an article I'm working on at the moment -- the militia wasn't, technically, part of the British Army, but a separate institution (unlike its successors, the TA and the Army Reserve). UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist: Weren't they amalgamated with the British Army sometime around 1906? AA (talk) 08:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes -- reading more carefully, I think you've threaded this needle fine: you have been clear about the distinction between militia and regular service. Might be worth checking whether the militia of the Wiltshire Regiment is accurate, or whether it was a militia battalion under the command of the Wiltshires (but not part of them) -- for example, the Bucks Rifle Volunteers were under the command of the Oxford Light Infantry, but didn't wear the cap badge and were rather protective of their separate identity. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UndercoverClassicist I've made a slight amendment in the article, linking to the 3rd (Royal Wiltshire Militia) Battalion in both the lede and "Military career" section. AA (talk) 09:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the change has gone slightly the wrong way, unfortunately: if he joined up in 1883, that's before the creation of the TA in 1908, so he would have been part of the Volunteer Force, rather than the British Army, until 1886. That's compatible with the body but not the lead. Being even more picky, in the British military, terms like "3rd (RWM) Battalion" don't make sense without an attached regiment, so you need "of the Wiltshire Regiment". UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Poore began his military service in the Volunteer Force with the 3rd (Royal Wiltshire Militia) Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment in 1883, before gaining a regular commission in the British Army in 1886." And reads along the same lines in the "Military career" section. Does that make more sense?! AA (talk) 16:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that works perfectly. As the Volunteers were (very) part-time, most people who served in them would have either had a day job or been so aristocratic as to not need one: I wonder if we know what else he was doing for those few years? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can find out! Thanks again :) AA (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have had a further look and it appears to be a rather quiet (or unwritten) period of his life. The family were very wealthy, so I wonder if he had need to work? AA (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, trying to do a proper review: may be a bit fragmentary:

  • A couple of sources are to Who's Who, which has its issues (see WP:WHOSWHO). This one in particular might be a problem: he was a first-rate swordsman, and polo, tennis, racquets, squash, and shot player.
  • On that note: what's a shot player?
  • Use an endash, not an emdash, in date ranges (MOS:RANGE)
  • I find the first paragraph of the lead a little confusing: we get a run of statistics, which are all at different levels (a number of test matches, a run rate in county cricket, a record for a particular county). I wonder if it would be better (and clearer) reworked to focus more on the overall narrative and less on the minutiae, which can be left to the body.
    Reads much better to me. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • he commanded the Jhansi Brigade of the British Indian Army with the rank of brigadier-general: advise a cut here, as this was/is the normal rank to command a brigade.
  • I find the lack of dates in the second lead paragraph to demand rather a lot of the reader's historical knowledge.
  • Juliana Poore née Lowry-Corry: see MOS:NEE
  • Lowry-Corry, (daughter of: rogue comma here.
  • "Junior" is normally capitalised in names, isn't it?
  • Poore joined the Volunteer Force as a lieutenant : is this definitely accurate? Officers normally joined at the rank of second lieutenant (which is one down), sometimes named as ensign.
    • Comment. I did wonder the same myself, but the earliest reference to him is in the London Gazette on 14th August 1883 (here), where he is commissioned as a lieutenant. AA (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hm -- yes, that does seem to be what's going on (looking at the note above about the HAC, I wonder whether this was a period where -- for whatever reason -- parts of the army weren't bothering with 2Lts: the rank hadn't been around very long in any guise). Strictly speaking, though, the Gazette doesn't demonstrate that he joined the Volunteers on that date -- he could have been serving before he became a lieutenant. I see the Gent. suffix, which probably indicates that he was a civilian, but we'd need another source to confirm that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The rank of second lieutenant (introduced in 1877) was abolished in 1881 and reintroduced in 1887. All new officers in the period (and existing officers of second lieutenant rank) were granted the rank of lieutenant. If you want a citation its covered on page 271 of Roper, Michael (1998). The Records of the War Office and Related Departments, 1660-1964. Public Record Office. ISBN 978-1-873162-45-3. - Dumelow (talk) 00:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • South Africa, where he served in the Second Matabele War in Rhodesia: Rhodesia wasn't in South Africa (with the capitals).
  • before being promoted two years later to brevet major in May 1898.: would cut two years later: we don't need to say it twice.
  • I would explain what a provost marshal is in the text. Was he the provost marshal for all of South Africa?
  • and was mentioned in despatches in March 1900, to which the commander-in-chief, Lord Roberts: not the right preposition. I think it would be wise to take another swing at this section, cutting the long sentence down a few times.
  • He was particularly active on the frontlines in the early years of the conflict: this seems needlessly ambiguous: did he later become particularly active in other parts of the conflict, or particularly lazy on the frontlines?
    • Done. I have removed entirely to eradicate any ambiguity. AA (talk)
  • where he was present at the Battles...: an odd way of saying it: this seems to imply that he didn't do very much?
  • with his diary including contemporary notes on their war crimes case: there are a few of these with phrases throughout. In general, they're best avoided: they usually become either or both of clunky and unclear. Suggest "his diary includes...". Also, hyphenate "war-crimes case" as a compound modifier.
  • He returned home aboard the SS Canada in 1902, but would return there on military service until his final departure in 1905: return where?
  • he was promoted to colonel in June 1915, and commanded the Jhansi Brigade in the British Indian Army for the remainder of the war, for which he was made a temporary brigadier-general: do I read right that he was promoted in June 1915, then immediately reassigned and promoted again?
    Nice one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Poore was not initially overly enamoured with cricket, which he had learnt not through classical coaching but the perusal of textbooks, reputedly chiefly from the Badminton Volume of Cricket (1888); it was not until he visited India as a subaltern with the 7th Hussars that he realised his love for cricket: lots of positives phrased as negatives here: I'm not sure the density of them is good either for clarity or for style.
    Yes, it looks good. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Styling his game on W. G. Grace,: on that of Grace, surely, unless his game was bearded and medically qualified?
  • "called up" and "called off" are not generally hyphenated (but the noun call-up is).
  • as being "a remarkable feat of physical endurance", on what was "a sweltering July day".: more concise simply as as "a remarkable feat of physical endurance" on "a sweltering July day"?
  • Had Poore met with success in these, he would likely have played Test cricket for England in the latter half of their series against Australia, but no Test cap for England was forthcoming: we've buried the lead here: presumably, he didn't play very well?
    • Comment. He didn't particularly shine in the Gentlemen v Players fixtures, which were often used to choose the Test team for forthcoming matches. AA (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • he made two final appearances in first-class cricket for the Europeans cricket team,: I'm not sure we need cricket team here, as they've been introduced further up. We haven't done it for the Parsees, who have a similarly ambiguous name.
  • Up until his final years, he ran a cricket school which encouraged the development of young cricketers: I might be missing something, but what else would we expect a cricket school to do?
  • Cricket was not the only field in which his sporting talents : it's good practice to restate the name in a new paragraph or section.
  • MOS:BIO discourages adding people's dates after their names; if someone's age or date of death is important, state it in prose.
  • Poore's sister Nina Mary Benita Poore (1878–1951), married her brother's brother-in-law: this took me a while. Poore's brother-in-law -- this is the Duke, right?
  • and was also a justice of the peace for the county: JPs don't generally cover a whole county; they sit at particular courts within a county.
  • a memorial was erected to his memory at Salisbury Cathedral.: as with the cricket school: is there any other sort of memorial? Simply "to him", I think.
  • he seems to stand for the Eccentric Ideal: I don't really see, from the article, where this would have come from. What did Cooper see in him that was so eccentric?
  • Why does Stern come before Lonsdale in the bibliography (and Lonsdale come in two different places)?
    The usual mantra around here is "any consistent system is fine", though purely personally, I've never seen a published work order its bibliography by the order of citation in the text. Given that it's a distinct system, I don't think many readers will pick that up, so it will look "wrong" to most of them, and I can't see a utility improvement to compensate. Most style guides go for alphabetical order, sometimes subdividing by source type if it's felt appropriate (for instance, separating out primary sources, like newspapers, from academic sources). UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why isn't Warner in the bibliography at all?
  • He was initially privately educated, before attending Cheam School in England: wasn't Cheam a private school? It certainly is today, and from looking at its Wikipedia article, it wasn't exactly an egalitarian place.

Nice work -- as usual, lots of pedantry here and, due to my lack of expertise on the subject, mostly quibbles about style and MoS. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not sure about the name "Royal Navy and Military Tournaments" -- is that definitely right? I generally see it referred to simply as the "Royal Tournament", and very occasionally as the "Naval and Military Tournament".
  • From there, he transferred to the 7th Hussars in the same year and would shortly thereafter serve: better to keep the tense straight: shortly after served...
  • army headquarters South Africa: that's a proper noun, so Army Headquarters South Africa (possibly with a comma in the middle) -- unless it's not the official name, in which case we need something like "the British Army's headquarters in South Africa".
    • Comment. His appointment as provost came under the umbrella of the South African Field Force, so I would say that "Army Headquarters South Africa" would be more apt? AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Was that the official name of the place he was serving? If not, how about "the headquarters of the South African Field Force", with some explanation of what the SAFF was?
    UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:06, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • @UndercoverClassicist: His Gazette citation reads: Captain and Brevet Major R. M. Poore, 7th Hussars, to be Provost-Marshal, South African Field Force. Dated 13th November, 1899. On page 125 of Breaker Morant: The Final Roundup it states he was provost marshal at Army Headquarters Pretoria. I will expand that section to include that detail. On the SAFF, we don't seem to have a Wiki article for it. So I wonder if it is an informal term for the South African Army?
  • war-crimes trial: strictly, MOS:DASH prefers war crimes–trial (note the endash) when the modifying prefix is multiple words.
  • Roberts praising Poore with regard his "care of prisoners": with regard to or just for.
  • the Battles of Paardeberg, Poplar Grove, Driefontein, Vet River, and Zand River: this should be the battles of Paardeberg etc (there's no such thing as the Battles of Paardeberg, so no capital on battles).
  • In February 1901, he was tasked by Kitchener with forming a Boer commando, the Bushveldt Mounted Rifles, which was made up of surrendered Boer combatants, whose task it was to loot cattle from enemy forces: the double relative clause is tricky. Suggest breaking the sentence after Rifles, and saying something like "The commando was made up of surrendered Boer combatants, and tasked with...}}
  • he was a "brilliant" swordsman: tricky one: MOS:QUOTEPOV is an issue here. Advise he was considered a brilliant swordsman ....
  • referencing the unusual manner in which he took up cricket, wrote of Poore: I think this would be clearer if we swap the he and the Poore -- at the moment, it could be Cooper who took up cricket in a strange way.

Hi UndercoverClassicist, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely a support: reads well, nicely researched, and solved a few tricky problems in the course of the review. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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@Nikkimaria: I was absolutely confident it was going to be in The Jubilee Book of Cricket (1897) by Ranjitsinhji, but to my surprise it wasn't. The original upload by User:Materialscientist was taken from Getty, and they haven't provided any authorship or publication information. AA (talk) 08:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can a publication old enough to satisfy the terms of the current tagging be found? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would any of these images suffice? AA (talk) 12:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing publication info on those - is it known? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This one has erroneously been listed on ESPNcricinfo as having been published by The Cricketer in 1899, however it wasn't published until 1921. I have located the picture from this volume of Cricket: A Weekly Record of the Game, published in 1899. AA (talk) 20:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that would make it PD in the US for sure. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I rarely upload to the Commons (and when I do, it's always my own cricket photos), so I'm a little unsure if I have done this correctly. The original author is Lafayette, who I am fairly certain is the Irish photographer James Lafayette (deceased 1923). AA (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the wording of the copyright template you've used, it indicates that you'll need an additional tag for US status. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the PD-US tag to it. AA (talk) 19:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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Matarisvan

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Hi AA, my comments:

That's all from me, I will try to get a source review done soon. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC - source review: pass

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  • Full review to follow later, but in the meantime:
  • In the references you should delink the publishers and locations (all of these are superfluous and fairly useless – several of them are OVERLINKING, and they don't aid readers at all
  • Ditto in the Works cited section, I'd advise delinking all the locations and publishers
  • It's best to aim for consistency in how you present sources, so get the ISBNs into the same 13-digit format; (you can use https://www.isbn.org/ISBN_converter to get the correct version for Thomson)
  • If a book has no ISBN (like Humphris), consider adding the oclc instead, which you can get from https://search.worldcat.org/.
  • Why are you using sfnref for the two entries from The Cricket Statistician when you could cite them directly to the author, Lonsdale? Ditto Warner
    • Comment and done. As they were contributors to a section in the journal/magazine, I was under the impression we link to the work and not the author. If this is not the case, I have now changed it to cite directly to Lonsdale and Warner. AA (talk) 16:17, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do a full prose review in a day or so. - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC prose review
Lead & IB
Military career
India and South Africa
Hampshire
  • "his height and massive frame": this is the first time his physique has been mentioned in the body, so it may be worth putting in some details (what was his height, for example)
    • Comment. It was a little difficult to insert too much detail on his height and physique, however, I have inserted his height into the sentence using template {{convert|6.4|ft|m}}, though not sure if "6 feet and 4 inches" would read better (but the conversion template does not allow for this wording). AA (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these are helpful. - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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