User talk:Valereee/Archive 66

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Appropriate notification?

Hi, Valereee. Since you're already familiar with the background, would you mind taking a look at the question I asked M.Bitton on their talk page (and was reverted)? Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Since this is in relation to my comment on this discussion, would you also mind having a look at what Gitz has been up to. Thanks.

@Gitz: please don't ping me again. M.Bitton (talk) 11:19, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, no idea what you're even talking about, Gitz regarding the notifications you thought were canvassing. Diffs might help. M.Bitton is allowed to removed posts from their talk.

And M.Bitton, Gitz is welcome to try to get clarity over that. IMO even the Trump article referenced in that discussion should be slashed of all the actual speculation and just mention the coverage of the speculation, but I'm not getting into that quagmire. Especially not to protect Donald Trump, who is perfectly capable of taking care of himself. Valereee (talk) 12:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

yep, Trump can take care of himself as well as Putin can: that content about The Sun's allegations of Parkinson's is quite bad but others can take care of it... Anyway, as to the diffs (I'm perfectly fine with M.Bitton removing my question from their talk), they are in the removed comment:

Why did you notify these discussions: WikiProject LGBT studies, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Imane_Khelif, to the Algeria talk page, here? How is the Algeria article directly related (per WP:APPNOTE) to the subject of the discussions opened by Trade - whether the article about Imane Khelif is within the scope of the WikiProject LGBT studies?

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

You're making it impossible for me to assume good faith with you with your POINTY so-called "enquiries". I will also ping those who asked you to step away from the subject (JustAnotherCompanion, GhostOfDanGurney and TarnishedPath) because at this stage, a trip to ANI is probably the way to go.

As for the notification, she is Algerian, so Algeria is more related to the topic than LGBT studies. M.Bitton (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

(since I'm here anyway) The Algeria appnote seems to fit well per WP:APPNOTE#1. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:09, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

This comment may well have been posted by mistake, but it's definitely what you think. The xenophobic assumptions (that the editors are Algerians, whose responses will be nationalistic and transfobic/misogynistic) aside, the True Woman remark is another proof that your BLP violations show no sign of abating. M.Bitton (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

If (per WP:CANVASS) you wanted to "draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion" about Khelief and the scope of the WikiProject LGBT studies, you could have notified many WikiProjects: Sport, Women's sport and Boxing are the first three that come to mind. You opted for the talk page of the article Algeria. Why did you choose that venue? It's bound to look bad: it may draw editors who have a view on the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies for the wrong reason - national pride. Arguably, it is selective and distorsive. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:55, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

As to the xenophobic assumptions - this is absurd and offensive. If we were talking about an Italian or British athlet (nations close to me and my family), I would have found a notification to the talk page of Italy or United Kingdom equally wrong, and for exactly the same reasons. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The first link takes me to a discussion that hasn't had a comment in 29 days and has 40 comments. The second link takes me to a discussion that hasn't had a comment in 30 days and has 54 comments. Are you saying you want me to read both of these long, stale discussions trying to figure out what you're talking about? Valereee (talk) 15:19, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait, you're talking about this notification of Algeria of the two discussions? I agree with GGS, doesn't seem inappropriate to notify Algeria, and the notification was neutrally worded. Valereee (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

So it's not inappropriate? Good to know, I would have thought otherwise. Thanks for your time - I hope you didn't read those old discussions, just the OPs. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey, if you want to discuss why you would have thought it was inappropriate, I'm happy to keep an open mind. Maybe I haven't thought of something. Valereee (talk) 15:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

No, it's okay, I don't want to waste any more of your or anyone else's time. As I said, I thought the connection between Algeria and the topic of discussion (i.e., WikiProject LGBT studies's remit re Khalid) was too loose to justify the notification; absent a justification, I thought this could be seen as an attempt at influencing the discussion by drawing in editors with an interest (not in sports, boxing or GENSEX, but) in Algeria. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a good thing to draw in editors who aren't there because they're interested in contentious topics. Discussions shouldn't be posted to completely unrelated projects only because it's spammy.

Why would people interested in Algeria be more or less likely to take any given position on a particular gensex policy question than people interested in boxing or sports? Valereee (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Since you asked... At the Olympics, athletes compete for their country, Imane Khelif won a gold medal for Algeria, and this is reflected in the attitude of the national sports federations, the national press and the general public (see for example Sportstar, where Khelif is described as having "transcended boxing" and become a "social phenomenon" throughout Algeria). Would it not have been inappropriate for me to notify the talk page of Italy "There are various discussions involving the BLP of the boxer who beat the Italian Angela Carini at the Olympics"? I think so - it would be like continuing the Khelif vs. Celini fight on Wikipedia. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:31, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course it would have been inappropriate to notify the talk page of Italy because the discussion is about Khelif (who is Algerian) and not Carini. In any case, you haven't answered Valereee's question. M.Bitton (talk) 11:53, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

For me, even Italy would be no big deal, if you can figure out a way to post neutrally and still explain why you think the project's members might be interested. If you sincerely believe members of a wikiproject might be interested, inform that project with a neutral post (which "who beat an Italian" is not). As long as you aren't spamming and you're being neutral, you're good. But are you saying there's some reason to believe members of project Algeria and members of project Italy would somehow be on opposite sides of a gensex policy discussion? Valereee (talk) 15:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Actually, we're not talking about members of the Algeria and Italy Wikiprojects, but users watching the Algeria and Italy articles (the notification was made on the Algeria talk page). Yes, I'm saying that users active on those articles might tend to take opposing sides on whether Imane Khelif's biography belongs in the Wikiproject LGBT studies. I can't prove it, of course, but arguably Italian users would be inclined to believe that Khelif is intersex and/or that she was involved in a controversy about gender eligibility criteria in sports, making her relevant to the Wikiproject. Algerian users might be inclined to argue that she is a cisgender endosex woman and that the so-called "controversy" was utter disinformation, so that any suggestion that she is LBGTQ+ would violate WP:BLP. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:39, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

With regard to this comment: the notification didn't provoke nationalistic and transfobic/misogynistic responses, so why make such a claim? M.Bitton (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

People interested in Italy (or Algeria, or GENSEX, or Israel or Palestine or abortion or the Balkans or any other subject, contentious or not) are not necessarily pro-Italy (or pro-Algeria, etc.) People probably join WikiProjects as often because they are critical of the subject as because they're supporters of it. So, no, we can't make that assumption. And you're making a really insulting assumption about Italians, which my husband and children and multiple of my in-laws are. And none of whom would assume she's intersex simply because some idiot on the internet speculated it. Valereee (talk) 20:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

This is not so much an assumption about Italians as a factual observation about the content of the Italian press. You'll remember that I linked to some mainstream Italian news agencies and newspapers that describe Imane Khelif as intersex. But it's not just (or mainly) the nationalist mainstream. This article in the Italian edition of Cosmopolitan is written by someone who specialised in gender studies with an MA in women's studies in the UK. Its title translates as The case of boxer Imane Khelif shows how invisible the intersex community still is. It includes an interview with intersex activist and scholar Michela Balocchi [1] about the intersex condition. And this article in the progressive weekly magazine L'Espresso is meant to defend Khelif against the fake news put out by the right. Its title translates as From Meloni to Musk, lies about Imane Khelif's body reveal the fierce face of reactionary politics. But the article clearly states: In reality, Imane Khelif is a woman with "variations in sex characteristics".

So part of Italian public opinion (and probably not only the Italian) has little doubt that Khelif is intersex, and sees her case as an attack on LGBTQIA+ people - the non-conforming people who have to fight against a front that spews hatred and violence against them and their lives, says Massimo Prearo [2], interviewed in the L'Espresso article. Others point out that the Khelif case raises the delicate issue of balancing inclusion and safety in boxing when it comes to intersex women. These interpretations of the Khelif case seem to me to be more even-handed and profound than the (majority, but not unanimous) interpretations of English-language news sources, which report that she is not transgender and that anything about DSDs is unsubstantiated speculation, and see the Khelif case only as fake news and disinformation put out by Russia and the populist right. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, TL:DR...your point re: inviting editors from these projects (or articles, don't care) weighing in at one of these discussion is...? Valereee (talk) 21:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a point about that. You are the admin here, you know the rules of the house. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course you don't. In fact, you never did and the only reason you're continuing this discussion while evading the questions is simply to discuss Khelif. M.Bitton (talk) 22:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I only continued this discussion because Valereee asked two questions after I said I wanted to leave and then commented on my "insulting assumptions" about Italians; the reason I'm "evading" your questions is because you asked me not to comment on your talk page or ping you. You can ask all you want: I won't answer you. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't need to ask you anything now that you admitted that you don't have a point. M.Bitton (talk) 22:36, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

In case someone in this discussion didn't know, there was a related discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS. It's waiting at WP:CR. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! No, I hadn't seen that. Valereee (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

This Month in GLAM: August 2024

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Xiaomichel

On his discussion page Xiaomichel is editing and making the discussion very uncivilized 79.17.172.126 (talk) 14:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 64

The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes
Issue 64, July – August 2024

• The Hindu Group joins The Wikipedia Library
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Read the full newsletter

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --16:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Women in Green's "Around the World in 31 Days" GA Editathon – October 2024

Hello Valereee:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2024!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2024, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) & Alanna the Brave (talk)

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about that

Appreciate you calling it out. I sometimes let my emotions get the best of me. Sock-the-guy (talk) 23:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

No worries! Valereee (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

My block

Hi Valereee, I've just found out that I can't vote in the BoT election because I've been blocked on two wikis, the second block being the partial block you gave me on Khelief's articles and talk page. I was wondering if you would be willing to unblock me if I pledged never to edit those pages again. From a practical point of view, the result would be identical. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I've unblocked, conditional on that restriction. Go forth and be careful around BLPs. :) Valereee (talk) 12:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:49, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

This week's article for improvement (week 38, 2024)

Hello, Valereee. The article for improvement of the week is: Polling station Please be bold and help improve it! Previous selections: Caroline Islands • Cancel culture Get involved with the AFI project: Nominate an article • Review nominations Posted by: MusikBot talk 00:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC) using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of WikiProject AFI •

Tech News: 2024-38

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Improvements and Maintenance

• Editors interested in templates can help by reading the latest Wishlist focus area, Template recall and discovery, and share your feedback on the talkpage. This input helps the Community Tech team to decide the right technical approach to build. Everyone is also encouraged to continue adding new wishes.
• The new automated Special:NamespaceInfo page helps editors understand which namespaces exist on each wiki, and some details about how they are configured. Thanks to DannyS712 for these improvements. [3]
• References Check is a feature that encourages editors to add a citation when they add a new paragraph to a Wikipedia article. For a short time, the corresponding tag "Edit Check (references) activated" was erroneously being applied to some edits outside of the main namespace. This has been fixed. [4]
• It is now possible for a wiki community to change the order in which a page’s categories are displayed on their wiki. By default, categories are displayed in the order they appear in the wikitext. Now, wikis with a consensus to do so can request a configuration change to display them in alphabetical order. [5]
• Tool authors can now access ToolsDB's public databases from both Quarry and Superset. Those databases have always been accessible to every Toolforge user, but they are now more broadly accessible, as Quarry can be accessed by anyone with a Wikimedia account. In addition, Quarry's internal database can now be queried from Quarry itself. This database contains information about all queries that are being run and starred by users in Quarry. This information was already public through the web interface, but you can now query it using SQL. You can read more about that, and 20 other community-submitted tasks that were resolved last week.
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Technical project updates

• Next week, all Wikimedia wikis will be read-only for a few minutes. This will start on September 25 at 15:00 UTC. This is a planned datacenter switchover for maintenance purposes. This maintenance process also targets other services. The previous switchover took 3 minutes, and the Site Reliability Engineering teams use many tools to make sure that this essential maintenance work happens as quickly as possible. [7]

Tech in depth

• The latest monthly MediaWiki Product Insights newsletter is available. This edition includes details about: research about hook handlers to help simplify development, research about performance improvements, work to improve the REST API for end-users, and more.
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MediaWiki message delivery 23:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Pasta all'Ortolana

Hi, I'm not very familiar with formatting references; also, there is a YouTube video as a reference. Could you kindly check the page? Thank you very much. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey, Jack! I'll answer at Talk:Pasta all'Ortolana. Valereee (talk) 11:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much.

Changing the subject, I would like to ask: on the Italian grammar page, source number 11 is in bold. Why? How can I remove it? JacktheBrown (talk) 22:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

JacktheBrown, there were two extraneous ' characters that triggered the bolding. I corrected the error. Cullen328 (talk) 22:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: thank you! JacktheBrown (talk) 22:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: I checked the reference; now, unfortunately, it's in italics. JacktheBrown (talk) 22:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

JacktheBrown, I removed more extraneous ' characters. Is it OK now? Cullen328 (talk) 01:14, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: perfecf! JacktheBrown (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Cullen. Jack, take a look at the edit Cullen made so that next time you'll know how to do this yourself. Valereee (talk) 22:31, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Even more India

You might find the closing comment at Talk:2024_Kolkata_rape_and_murder_incident#RfC:_Name_of_victim interesting. Well done IMO. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, good close there! I was watching but not participating in case it needed a closer. If I'd closed I would have listed in the 'compelling and clearly articulated reasons' in the final paragraph the 'what value does the name add for the reader that "a 31 year old female postgraduate trainee doctor at R. G. Kar Medical College and Hospital in Kolkata, West Bengal, India" does not?' argument. Valereee (talk) 10:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of mentioning "has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases" in the discussion, but as T pointed out, it's of passing relevance. More press:[8]. Take a look at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/India-related_articles#The_Kolkata_"case",_wider_implications? if you like. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

This week's article for improvement (week 39, 2024)

Hello, Valereee. The article for improvement of the week is: Human geography Please be bold and help improve it! Previous selections: Polling station • Caroline Islands Get involved with the AFI project: Nominate an article • Review nominations Posted by: MusikBot talk 00:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC) using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of WikiProject AFI •

Tech News: 2024-39

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Weekly highlight

• All wikis will be read-only for a few minutes on Wednesday September 25 at 15:00 UTC. Reading the wikis will not be interrupted, but editing will be paused. These twice-yearly processes allow WMF's site reliability engineering teams to remain prepared to keep the wikis functioning even in the event of a major interruption to one of our data centers.

Updates for editors

A screenshot of the interface for the Alt Text suggested-edit feature

• Editors who use the iOS Wikipedia app in Spanish, Portuguese, French, or Chinese, may see the Alt Text suggested-edit experiment after editing an article, or completing a suggested edit using "Add an image". Alt-text helps people with visual impairments to read Wikipedia articles. The team aims to learn if adding alt-text to images is a task that editors can be successful with. Please share any feedback on the discussion page.
• The Codex color palette has been updated with new and revised colors for the MediaWiki user interfaces. The most noticeable changes for editors include updates for: dark mode colors for Links and for quiet Buttons (progressive and destructive), visited Link colors for both light and dark modes, and background colors for system-messages in both light and dark modes.
• It is now possible to include clickable wikilinks and external links inside code blocks. This includes links that are used within <syntaxhighlight> tags and on code pages (JavaScript, CSS, Scribunto and Sanitized CSS). Uses of template syntax {{…}} are also linked to the template page. Thanks to SD0001 for these improvements. [9]
• Two bugs were fixed in the GlobalVanishRequest system by improving the logging and by removing an incorrect placeholder message. [10][11]
• View all 25 community-submitted tasks that were resolved last week.

Updates for technical contributors

• From Wikimedia Enterprise:
  • The API now enables 5,000 on-demand API requests per month and twice-monthly HTML snapshots freely (gratis and libre). More information on the updates and also improvements to the software development kits (SDK) are explained on the project's blog post. While Wikimedia Enterprise APIs are designed for high-volume commercial reusers, this change enables many more community use-cases to be built on the service too.
  • The Snapshot API (html dumps) have added beta Structured Contents endpoints (blog post on that) as well as released two beta datasets (English and French Wikipedia) from that endpoint to Hugging Face for public use and feedback (blog post on that). These pre-parsed data sets enable new options for researchers, developers, and data scientists to use and study the content.

In depth

• The Wikidata Query Service (WDQS) is used to get answers to questions using the Wikidata data set. As Wikidata grows, we had to make a major architectural change so that WDQS could remain performant. As part of the WDQS Graph Split project, we have new SPARQL endpoints available for serving the "scholarly" and "main" subgraphs of Wikidata. The query.wikidata.org endpoint will continue to serve the full Wikidata graph until March 2025. After this date, it will only serve the main graph. For more information, please see the announcement on Wikidata.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

MediaWiki message delivery 23:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

CT Template

Hello Valereee. I see that you have added to my talk page a contentious topics template regarding editing pages related to abortion. I'm wondering if this was in error as I've made no edits to this topic area other than a talk page contribution. Elisha'o'Mine (talk) 23:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) Elisha'o'Mine, we use "edits" to refer to changes of any page, including talk pages. Either way, the point of the alert template is to spread awareness of the need to adhere more closely to policies and guidelines in a given topic area. We want people to be aware of that even if the restrict their involvement to talk page comments. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:31, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Andre🚐 21:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

September music

story · music · places

Thank you for good advice! - Recommended reading today: Frye Fire, by sadly missed Vami_IV. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad it was helpful! Thanks for the story link, I always love looking through your photos. Just added one at Leberkäse. Valereee (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Happy because my story today is about a Czech mezzo soprano who is mentioned on the Main page on her birthday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Three stories related to today in memory, 11 September, 20 July and 20 June, the latter piece of art also pictured on the Main page. - Thanks for the Leberkäse. I went to the place with Graham87 (but no Leberkäse then). The latest pics have dumplings - and I thought of you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see those Plum dumplings! What's the brownish-black powder? I looked at knedle, but it looks like there are multiple photos there already unless that powder garnish deserves explanation and a photo. Valereee (talk) 15:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Poppy seed and powdered sugar, from my friend's Slovak grandmother. Off to rehearsal for concert tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Today is Schoenberg's 150th birthday! On display, portrayed by Egon Schiele, with music from Moses und Aron, and with two DYK hooks, one from 2010 and another from 2014; the latter, about his 40th birthday, appeared on his 140th birthday, which made me happy then and now again. - See places for a stunning sunrise, on the day Bruckner's 200th birthday was celebrated (just a few days late). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

My story today is about a man who played jazz when it was banned by the Nazis, - you can listen to how they played it later. - What do you think of my talk page corner for "help wanted", recently recommended? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

My story today features a pic I took from my position in the choir, I can also offer varied delightful music, some from Venice, also with pics I took (some good food there, one more to come), - note the rose in the clarinet ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Tea with milk nationalism

Hi Valeree, various IPs are putting Singapore in and out of the "country" field at Teh tarik. I was wondering if I could pull on your expertise as to what the 'right' answer is, given the tea is older than both countries. The article says teh tarik originated near rubber plantations, of which there were some in Singapore. I really don't think anyone was tracking the culinary habits of the labourers to know if one plantation beat others to the idea of pouring tea a bit more dramatically. List both? CMD (talk) 01:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey, CMD! Hm, that article seems to have a lot of issues. I'll see if I can't spend some time on it today! Thanks, always happy to go take a look at foods that are important outside the core anglosphere! Valereee (talk) 11:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

English is the main language of Singapore! CMD (talk) 12:02, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

lol I actually thought about that and checked...it's not core Anglosphere! It's apparently "middle" Anglosphere. New terms for me. :D Valereee (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes I think academics just make stuff up! I am close to taking genuine issue with that map, where Belize is core anglosphere while Singapore is not. I have now looked up the James Bennet book, and Belize gets one mention: "Caribbean blacks are accustomed to multilayered identifications as citizens of their unique island communities (a strong identity typically under- estimated by outsiders), as blacks, and as English speakers. The latter is seen in, for example, Anglo-Caribbean solidarity with Belize and Guyana against Hispanosphere claims, or for that matter Anglo-Caribbean solidarity on the Falklands crisis against Argentina." It has four mentions of Singapore, but mostly in the context of it being part of a network of Chinese-language territories. There's joy to be had though, Wales is singled out as one of a few exceptions within the core anglosphere, which some people I know would be happy to hear. CMD (talk) 13:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Well of course they make stuff up! That's their job: finding connections others haven't found yet, and arguing for the validity of those connections. That's my theory of why so many of them seem to have such a hard time when they first start editing. No OR/SYNTH is the exact opposite of what they've been trained to do. :D Valereee (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Well then, I'm off to make my academic contribution. In this paper, I aim to contribute to the existing body of knowledge on teh tarik. Through a comprehensive series of meals, this study will demonstrate how teh tarik is best consumed in the morning with roti kosong. By addressing key emptiness in the current stomach, the results will ultimately enhancing the broader field of good tea... CMD (talk) 13:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

So, re: Malaysia, Singapore, or both? Actually, instead of listing both, I'd probably go with listing neither in the infobox. 'Malay peninsula' is IMO sufficient for the reader and will likely draw fewer IPs in to edit war. The countries split in 1965, well after the invention of this beverage, so it's completely understandable both countries claim it. It's a regional dish, served in multiple nations and (OR warning) apparently particularly important to Malaysia. But that would need more research. Valereee (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank You

I want to thank you for you level-headed contributions, counsel and insight on my talk page discussion. I mean well but when I get frustrated I can go to place which isn't healthy. I appreciate you. MaskedSinger (talk) 13:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, MS, and you're welcome for whatever help I gave. Valereee (talk) 16:41, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I also commend you for de-escalating that block admirably. Andre🚐 17:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrevan. Valereee (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Can I ask you something. I would appreciate your advice. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead. Valereee (talk) 20:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I came across a law firm in the news and was thinking of creating an article for them. I looked them up and they appear to satisfy notability.

So far so good.

I looked up the founder of the firm and he has a Wiki article - problem is that it has an undisclosed paid tag on it which comes from the creating editor being part of a sock puppet ring.

The problem with a sock puppet ring is that it infects anything that comes in contact with it so is it a problem for me to create the article for the law firm? MaskedSinger (talk) 06:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not a problem if they do satisfy notability requirements. The sockpuppetry is only a problem if it moves over to the new article. Valereee (talk) 13:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok thanks! MaskedSinger (talk) 20:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

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IP question

Moving from another user's talk:

I am new and apologize for my ignorance but this confuses me. I'm an atheist and would not like seeing wikipedia citing religious text for accurate history. However, the existence of a Psalm about remembering Zion, and yearning for Jerusalem is evidence of Jewish yearning existing prior to 19th century. We can assume the factual details in the psalm are unreliable or false, but the existence of a psalm about Jewish yearning, which predates the 19th century, still seems to show those sentiments are not new. I don't think masked singer was relying on the truth value of people actually crying on the rivers of Babylon.

Also, it was said that masked singer assumed another editor was Muslim but when I read the cited comment and discussion, it referenced Islam, which is a topic that is obviously important to that other user from looking at their edit history.

I feel you are not being fair. Obviously I'm ignorant, but I thought I would share my interpretation. 75.172.5.197 (talk) 5:35 am, Today (UTC−4)

IP, no worries, happy to help. The fact Psalm 137 references Zion is fine to use for the fact it references Zion, and in fact we do that at that article. We can't interpret what that means with regard to the historical beginnings of Zionism, per WP:OR. We need someone else, preferably an academic in a recent peer-reviewed publication, interpreting what it means w/regard to dating the beginnings Zionism.

The simple fact a user edits around Islam doesn't mean anyone should assume that editor is Muslim, and even if they are Muslim, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be editing in topics about Judaism. It's assuming a Muslim is unable to neutrally edit about Judaism and a Jew is unable to neutrally edit about Islam. By the same logic someone might argue that you, an atheist, shouldn't be editing about religion at all. Or even about atheism, as you might not be able to edit neutrally. Valereee (talk) 10:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

FWIW this isn't what I was saying. My point was and is this:

For sure we all have WP:AGF in mind, but if an editor with a certain perspective makes controversial edits which are going to provoke editors of the oppositive persuasion, I would have thought it's a clear violation of WP:NPOV.

For instance, if I am a Barcelona fan and make controversial edits to the Real Madrid article, they'd most likely be reverted, I'd be called a vandal and possibly blocked.

This is nothing about making an assumption, it's looking at their previous edits and the way they swing. And if you call them out you're accused of making aspersions. But what if you're aspersions are correct?

I've seen on other articles, editors who are clearly anti-Israel making anti-Israel edits. There is no conflict here? What about WP:ADVOCACY?

The reality is that with the way the media and academia operates, there are going to be significantly more sources villifying Israel. Not to say that it doesn't deserve criticism, but it's very easy to craft a narrative that is Wikipedia compliant but also isn't neutral, independent or factually correct. MaskedSinger (talk) 11:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

You may not accuse an editor of POV pushing without diffs to back it up. If you believe an editor is not editing neutrally, show the diffs of those non-neutral edits.

It literally doesn't matter what religion the editor is or isn't, any more than it matters what their favorite food is, how tall they are or whether they're a ginger. What matters is their edits. If you cannot show, with diffs, an editor making non-neutral edits, you cannot accuse them of editing non-neutrally. And even if they are making non-neutral edits, calling out their likely religion is always going to get you in trouble.

If you are not 100% clear on that, you should not be editing in this contentious topic area. Or probably any contentious topic area. The blocking administrator expressed reservations about you being unblocked. If you cross the line again, the block is quite likely to be reinstated for some combination of CIR, RGW, AGF, and/or to prevent damage and disruption. Valereee (talk) 11:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I am clear on that. I'm not quite clear on RGW. What does it mean? MaskedSinger (talk) 12:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:RGW is Righting Great Wrongs, a reason some people want to edit Wikipedia that is at cross-purposes to the project's mission. People who come into an article -- often a contentious topic -- because they're outraged that their own understanding of the subject isn't what Wikipedia is presenting about that subject are said to be here to Right Great Wrongs, and it's considered being WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Valereee (talk) 12:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh ok. Thanks for explaining! MaskedSinger (talk) 12:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Valereee, I appreciate your explanation. I don’t want to take up your time so please feel free to ignore unless you availability and interest.

MaskedSinger made a claim that ‘emerged in Europe in the 19th century’ is untrue. Another editor somewhat snarkily said MaskedSinger was using the Bible and Wikipedia as sources (in my opinion, saying "Right." was rude). MaskedSinger referenced Wikipedia articles highlighting what MaskedSinger perceived as contradiction. MaskedSinger did not edit the Zionism page and cite those Wikipedia articles as reliable sources.

MaskedSinger’s reply when asked for sources was to respond with a general and ambiguous ‘world history’ and then it was implied, MaskedSinger was disrupting the page. Later someone threatened ANI/AE and characterized MaskedSinger’s statements as nonsense. I understand why MaskedSinger may have felt ganged up on and bullied.

I don’t see where MaskedSinger claimed the bible is a reliable source for history. MaskedSinger explicitly refers to the bible as a primary source. As per WP:USEPRIMARY, the bible would potentially suffer from the disadvantages of primary sources and NOT be a reliable source for history.

I agree that the bible cannot be used to date the beginning of Zionism. I don’t understand why the bible cannot be used on the talk page to defend MaskedSinger’s point that ‘yearning for a return to zion’ is not a 19th century emergence.

Later in the conversation nableezy provides a quote from Stanislawski, an academic, which directly supports the point I interpreted MaskedSinger to be making:

“Many, if not most, Zionists today regard Zionism as a natural continuation of two millennia of Jewish attachment to the Land of Israel and aspiration to return there in the End of Days.”

Stanislawski goes on to argue that Zionism is NOT a natural continuation. However, if ‘many or most Zionists’ regard it as the natural continuation, should the lead to Zionism be expressing only Stanislawski’s viewpoint? Nableezy seems to think so.

Regarding assuming an editor is Muslim and should therefore not edit the Zionism page. With respect, this is not an accurate representation of what MaskedSinger said. JoyfulRant (talk) 19:24, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey, @JoyfulRant! I'm not actually going to discuss content. I'm only explaining policy. I'm also not going to try to argue my interpretation of behavior vs. your interpretation of it.

The Bible can be used by academics for such an interpretation of Psalm 137. Wikipedia cannot make that interpretation ourselves, as that is considered WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. We follow the sources. When a WP:RS makes that connection, we can report on that. Valereee (talk) 11:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I saw you added a generic Introduction to contentious topics explainer to my talk page. The second sentence gives a statement that the explainer does not imply there are issues with my edits, but it also does not say my edits are okay, and the rules state users are not allowed to discuss contentious topics unless they have 500 edits and an account at least 30 days old.Am I correct that the logical takeaway is that my edits were NOT okay since I do not meet the 500 edits and 30 days rule?  

I apologize, the system had explicitly told me I was not allowed to reply or talk on other pages. I incorrectly assumed since the system didn’t stop me, I was allowed to discuss the topic.

I noticed you added an edit request for my topic and see that edit requests are an exception to the new account rule. Do “edit requests” need to actually explicitly propose a change to the article or can they just bring attention to a source or provide additional potential sources for editors to consider, like I did? The Edit requests pages is a bit confusing because it says to establish a consensus with editors before making edit requests and seems to assume users want to propose changes to the article. JoyfulRant (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@JoyfulRant, you aren't allowed to do anything at any topic related to the Arab-Israeli conflict except make an edit request. The edit you made at Talk:Origins of the Six-Day War wasn't added as an edit request, but on reading it I thought it seemed like that's what it was (rather than a comment, which you can't do) so I added an edit request template to the post.

The edit requests instructions arguably need to be adjusted for this, as obviously you can't gain consensus. But the point is that you shouldn't be making edit requests that would need to gain consensus. That is, asking for a correction to a quote, which is what you seem like you were doing, should be fine. Fixing a typo would be fine. Basic, noncontroversial edit requests are fine. If a change needs discussion, probably you shouldn't be suggesting it at this point. Typically we don't protect talk pages because we do want editors who aren't 500/30 yet to be able to make these noncontroversial edit requests.

Do be careful about your editing at talk pages around the conflict. Admins could interpret such edits as intentionally violating the 500/30 rule. Valereee (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Women in Red October 2024

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This week's article for improvement (week 40, 2024)

Eight gold Spanish escudo (1687), issued during the reign of Carlos II of Spain Hello, Valereee. The article for improvement of the week is: Currency of Spain Please be bold and help improve it! Previous selections: Human geography • Polling station Get involved with the AFI project: Nominate an article • Review nominations Posted by: MusikBot talk 00:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC) using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of WikiProject AFI •

Tech News: 2024-40

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

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In depth

• The server switch was completed successfully last week with a read-only time of only 2 minutes 46 seconds. This periodic process makes sure that engineers can switch data centers and keep all of the wikis available for readers, even if there are major technical issues. It also gives engineers a chance to do maintenance and upgrades on systems that normally run 24 hours a day, and often helps to reveal weaknesses in the infrastructure. The process involves dozens of software services and hundreds of hardware servers, and requires multiple teams working together. Work over the past few years has reduced the time from 17 minutes down to 2–3 minutes. [14]

Meetings and events

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MediaWiki message delivery 22:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)