User talk:Tbonefrank

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December 2020

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please take greater care when writing citation templates

I'm growing weary of seeing the same mistakes – not all your fault, because as a tool, visual editor is seriously flawed – but, you are responsible for all edits that you make.

For example, this citation from Silvio (song):

{{Cite book|last=Margotin|first=Philippe|url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/869908038|title=Bob Dylan : all the songs : the story behind every track|date=2015|others=Jean-Michel Guesdon|isbn=1-57912-985-4|edition=First edition|location=New York|oclc=869908038}}

Margotin, Philippe (2015). Bob Dylan : all the songs : the story behind every track. Jean-Michel Guesdon (First edition ed.). New York. ISBN 1-57912-985-4. OCLC 869908038. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

The citation is flawed in three ways:

1. ve insists on adding |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/869908038 – |url= is reserved for links to a copy of the source that readers can actually read; WorldCat does not provide access to the source so |url= should be omitted (the information available through the WorldCat url is available through the |oclc= identifier link so |url= is redundant)

2. ve, via WP:CITOID, gets parameter data from WorldCat. WorldCat is notoriously unreliable. |others=Jean-Michel Guesdon is wrong; Guesdon is an author so |author2=Jean-Michel Guesdon is correct.

3. |edition=First edition contains extraneous text which the {{cite book}} template detects and flags with an error message. The correct form is: |edition=First

So, a correctly written template looks like this:

{{Cite book|last=Margotin|first=Philippe |title=Bob Dylan : all the songs : the story behind every track|date=2015|author2=Jean-Michel Guesdon|isbn=1-57912-985-4|edition=First |location=New York|oclc=869908038}}

Margotin, Philippe; Jean-Michel Guesdon (2015). Bob Dylan : all the songs : the story behind every track (First ed.). New York. ISBN 1-57912-985-4. OCLC 869908038.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Please use care when writing citation template so that other don't have to cleanup after you.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

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WP:SONGCOVER

Hi! Surely you can see that some of the cover versions you are adding don't meet WP:SONGCOVER? this ref is literally one sentence. this one is half a sentence. this one is even less.

Please do not add again unless appropriate sources are supplied. Doctorhawkes (talk) 02:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I do think those covers do meet WP:SONGCOVER standards. There are several other covers of "Jokerman" that don't meet the standards and I'm not bothering to try and post those on the page. I will continue to find new sources and repost the info regarding Veloso and Gilkyson. - Tbonefrank

But you admit the references so far are not sufficient? If you can provide other good sources, great. Doctorhawkes (talk) 02:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

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Most of the Time

Thanks for all your work on this and other Dylan articles. I'd like to try and get "Most of the Time" to Good Article status - would you like to be co-nominator? I'm happy to do the additional work, but you've definitely built a sound foundation. The Dylan song articles that I have previously nominated for GA are "Idiot Wind", "Where Are You Tonight? (Journey Through Dark Heat)" and "Tangled Up in Blue". Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:17, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Benny! I'd be happy to be co-nominator.

Great stuff. I've started adding to the article. Let me have any feedback, and I'll let you know when I think it's ready to nominate. I was there for the performance on February 7, 1990 mentioned by Heylin in his book - it was my first Dylan concert! Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

By way of a progress update, there are a couple more sources I want to look at, which I'm hoping to get hold of in the next week or so - particularly Ricks's Visions of Sin and the full version of the Williams book (as I can only see some pages on Google books). These should help with writing about the lyrics and interpretation. I also have a couple of other reviewer comments from the time of the Oh Mercy release to add in. The lead might need a little bit extra. Is there any other aspect of the article that you think needs work? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I think there's enough content now. I'm not too sure about the Attwood source, and have put something at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Bob_Dylan#A_reliable_source? to try and canvas views. If there's no reply to that after a couple of days then we can remove the tag and see what the GA reviewer thinks. I've had a go at making the language consistently American English but there may be some tweaks needed. Is there anything else that you think is required before we nominate it and see what a reviewer thinks about it meeting the Wikipedia:Good article criteria? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Benny! I can't think of anything else to add. That Attwood excerpt is solid gold - a lot of people have written about the music and a lot of people have written about the lyrics but he's the only one who talks about how they work together and, more specifically, how the music purposefully CONTRADICTS the lyrics - so I really, really hope it stays.

Hi, the article has been picked up by a GA reviewer - see Talk:Most_of_the_Time/GA1. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Fingers crossed!

I think that only the first nominator gets a talk page notice, so see User_talk:BennyOnTheLoose#Your_GA_nomination_of_Most_of_the_Time_3. Thanks! Regards. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

May 2021

	The Elston Gunnnnnn Award
	Thank you for your continued work on Bobby Zimmerman-related articles! ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia talk 17:42, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

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Dylanchords

Hi! I think that it's quite clear that Dylanchords is user generated. See WP:UGC. You can not use the argument that other sources have not been removed. See WP:OTHERCONTENT. Doctorhawkes (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

The examples WP:UGC gives of "user generated" sources are blogs or social media websites. Dylanchords is not remotely similar to those examples.

You can literally see on the front page where it says "submitted by". It's the very definition of user generated.

I know you add heaps of great content on Dylan articles, but it's beginning to feel like you think you WP:OWN the articles. Doctorhawkes (talk) 22:49, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear you won't listen to what I'm saying. I'm going to ask for a 3rd opinion. Doctorhawkes (talk) 08:01, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

You won't listen to me either. You ignored my point that Ostrem's site is not remotely similar to the other blogs and social media sites that WP:UGC defines as "user generated."

Obviously we're not getting anywhere here. It seems clear that users are providing the content to me, but I have been wrong before. I'll wait to see the result of the 3rd opinion. Doctorhawkes (talk) 21:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Eyolf Ostrem, a musicologist with a PhD and a published author, is responsible for 95% of what's on Dylanchords (going back to the 1990s when he founded it). The information that I'm referencing from his site has to do with the keys that the songs are played in, which is useful information for people who care about music. I can check with a 3rd party as well if you'd like.

The 3rd opinion (WP:3O) is someone impartial, so no need. Doctorhawkes (talk) 06:57, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I've posted here [1] to discuss whether it is a reliable source. Feel free to contribute. Doctorhawkes (talk) 00:40, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has argued that it is not a copyright violation. I've left the disputed posts there while a 3rd opinion was sought and while it was discussed as a reliable source. The onus is now upon you to show why is is not a copyright violation, and I feel justified in removing the link in the meantime. Please note, this only applies to links where the lyrics are displayed, not to separate posts made by eyolf. Doctorhawkes (talk) 00:47, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has argued that it is a copyright violation either (including you). Your original justification for removing the source was that it wasn't "reliable." I feel justified in restoring it.

"The more I think about it, the more I think Doctorhawkes is correct here. While a fair use argument could certainly be mounted, there's no indication that there is any dispensation from any copyright holder to the site. Therefore discretion is the better part of valor, and we should avoid using it. I'd say it's largely broadly reliable, but unfortunately in s copyright danger zone."

Had a quick look online. If you're very keen to provide details of the key, I believe they can be found at MusicNotes, a licensed provider. like here https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0235845. Doctorhawkes (talk) 03:21, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

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Rough and Rowdy Ways—please maintain 10 reviews in table form per Template:Album ratings

Hi. I notice that over the last year or more, you've been the main editor responsible for repeatedly restoring more than 10 reviews to Template:Album ratings. I don't know if it's been pointed out to you, but it is recommended to include no more than 10 in table form. The template documentation itself states this. While you can point out that is a "recommendation", this Dylan album is not such an exception that it should have more scores listed than most other album articles that have been looked after on Wikipedia. It was no more exceptionally popular with critics than multiple albums are every year. Please attempt to choose the 10 most representative and leave it at that. When they were removed the first time, you should have left it be. Ss112 21:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I restored more than 10 reviews to that table exactly one time (not "repeatedly"). I also disagree with your assertion that the album is not "an exception." It was the second highest-rated album of 2020 and is already considered a landmark album by many critics. I'm fine with keeping the number of reviews in the table at 10 for now (if only because the album is less than 2 years old). In the future, when its landmark status becomes irrefutable, it should be expanded. Tbonefrank (talk) 01:24, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

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