User talk:Stevey7788/Archive6

Lama 2012

If Lama doesn't allow for Loloish branch,[1] why do we cite him for a Loloish branch just above? — kwami (talk) 06:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the edit summary should read "Lama doesn't specifically define a Loloish clade." - that's what I meant. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

But with the tree above, we present a Loloish clade defined by Lama. — kwami (talk) 08:19, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, ignore what was said above. The thing is, I don't see anything wrong with adding the list of 9 groups. It provides readers a quick overview of what's in Lama's classification. They would find out about the detailed branching structure in the Loloish article. — Stevey7788 (talk) 08:28, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Ignore it? If it's false, why do we say it?

Lama says quite clearly, "These languages belong to the Nisoic Branch or the Loloish Branch of Tibeto-Burman (TB) subfamily of Sino-Tibetan." The automated trees don't confirm that, but we're not following them anyway.

Does Bradley not accept Loloish? — kwami (talk) 14:52, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Bradley definitely does accept Loloish. I've looked through Lama's thesis, and he does define Loloish, although the computational trees don't really indicate so. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

So, since both define Loloish, their conceptions of Loloish should be at the Loloish article, right? (We don't follow Lama's computational trees for anything else.) — kwami (talk) 06:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to briefly include that information in the Lolo-Burmese article. What's wrong with a little preview anyways. — Stevey7788 (talk) 08:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No-one's going to recognize those names, and we don't define them, so I don't see the benefit. Plus there's the general problem of content forks: we now have two articles we need to keep in sync, not just one to keep up to date. — kwami (talk) 08:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

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File:Black chicago1.gif

I wanted to update File:Black chicago1.gif for 2010, but I have only been able to do cook county. Can you tell me how to recreate this for 2010.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

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TNG

In case you're thinking of adding the Papuan link to other articles, could we hold off until they actually have s.t. to link to? I notice that they don't even have the different families straightened out yet. — kwami (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

All right. It's a work in progress that will take at least a few years. — Stevey7788 (talk) 08:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Hm Nai language

Did they really determine it to be a dialect of Pa Hng, as in mutually intelligible, and not just related to it? We don't mention that in our other articles. — kwami (talk) 22:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Is the inclusion of Yuno also obvious, or should I leave a question mark with it? — kwami (talk) 02:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

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Old Southwestern Chinese

Is this the wrong Bradley (2007)? I can't confirm the ref.

Thanks, — kwami (talk) 00:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I put it in some time ago when I was too distracted with other things to reference it properly. Now I can't find where it came from. — kwami (talk) 06:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't find it in Gbooks either. I remember it being s.t. already on WP. — kwami (talk) 22:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Source listed at LingList. Added to the articles. — kwami (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Lawu

SIL issued a new Loloish ISO code, [lwu] for "Lawu".[2] Can you tell if this is a variety we have an article on? — kwami (talk) 12:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Normally I'd create a stub, but that's worth little w/o a classification, and since Lawu's 'closest' relatives are on different branches of the tree, I have no idea what to do with it. — kwami (talk) 21:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I meant diff branches of the Lisoish tree. But Talu would seem to be the single closest language, unless I'm reading too much into it. Should we have Lavu–Lawu in the tree, or leave it unclassified within Lisoish? — kwami (talk) 21:38, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

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Nora language

E17 has this under Tai-Kadai rather than Nungish. Any opinion? Are they maybe different languages? — kwami (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for taking care of all the Loloish etc. articles. It's nice to know I don't need to worry about an article on my watch list when your name is on it. — kwami (talk) 20:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I may have asked you this before, but can you ID Kwei-yang, Po-se, Tien-chow, T'ien-pa, or Tushan, all Tai languages in Ruhlen 1987? And he has a Southern Luhupa language, which I've seen elsewhere, and which is clearly close to languages we have; I just can't tell if it's covered by an existing ISO code. There are also the SIL Zhuang languages Qianjiang (Ch'ien-chiang) and Yongchun, which were retired after Ethnologue 12, presumably by merging into something else. And there's a retired Tibetan language Sotatipo (Sötati-pö, Pö of Sötati), maybe Guiqiong? I've asked SIL, but evidently they haven't kept records. It would be nice to create redirects for these names for anyone looking them up.

If you can ID those, that will account for all SIL language names since E12, and all of Ruhlen apart from Bamileke and some extinct South American "languages" which may only be names.

BTW, I created stubs on Koki, Long Phuri, Makuri, and Para Naga (linked from Kuki-Chin–Naga languages at the bottom) if you want to review. — kwami (talk) 02:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Kwei-yang = Guiyang, Po-se = Baise, Tien-chow = Tianzhou, T'ien-pa = Tianba, and Tushan = Dushan. They're place names in southern China, and correspond to Zhuang and Bouyei varieties. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I could tell that much (apart from Po-se), but can you tell which varieties? Or are the names too general? — kwami (talk) 05:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Kwei-yang and Tushan are Bouyei [pcc]. Po-se and Tien-chow are Youjiang Zhuang [zyj]. I can't tell for T'ien-pa / Tianba, since it's an extremely common name for villages in southern China (it literally means 'field dike'). — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Can you tell what Qianjiang Zhuang and Sotatipo Tibetan are? (I assume Yongchun is Dai Zhuang.) If we can ID those, we'll have covered all SIL names since the 12th ed. of Ethnologue. (You can see the remaining names at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages/Open_tasks#Other_names.) — kwami (talk) 06:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Qianjiang is definitely Northern Zhuang, but I can't tell which exact ISO code it is. Qianjiang 黔江 is the name of a river in northern Guangxi by the way. Yongchun would be Dai Zhuang. Sotatipo Tibetan is Central Tibetan according to http://www-01.sil.org/acpub/repository/26456.pdf , but again I can't tell what exact ISO code it belongs to. Ethnologue has split up a lot of languages to the point where it can get quite difficult and frustrating to line up datapoints with specific ISO codes. — Stevey7788 (talk) 11:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Johnkn63 (my talk) suggests Qianjiang was split. He also has Yongchun as (maybe) Zuojiang. — kwami (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, do you know of Naapa (Naaba) Tibetan can be identified with any of the 25 branches of Tibetan in Tournadre (2008)? — kwami (talk) 07:29, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Naapa is in Dzongkha–Lhokä. It's spoken in the eastern edge of Nepal, close to Sikkim and Bhutan. http://archive.ethnologue.com/15/show_language.asp?code=nao and http://www.ethnologue.com/language/LHM

Since he lists Dzongkha and Lhokä separately, do you think it would be best to keep Naapa as a third language, or can we lump it into Dzongkha language the way we have several other lects? Should we list it as a 9th Dz-Lh lang at Tibetic_languages#Classification? I don't see it in his pub, and don't want to misquote him, but we need to link it from somewhere if it's to be a separate article. — kwami (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, "The town of T'ien-pa is in Shui-ch'eng County in northwestern Kweichow Province. Li ... refers to this dialect as Shuich'eng. Moskalev (1970) discusses the synchronic phonology of T'ien-pa." Is that enough to ID it? (Assuming that refers to Zhuang and not Miao or Kra.) — kwami (talk) 09:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is definitely Bouyei [pcc]. Ruhlen seems to have taken a lot of his Tai stuff from Li Fang-Kuei's works. — Stevey7788 (talk) 11:48, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Good. All of Tai-Kadai is accounted for. — kwami (talk) 21:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Wonderful! — Stevey7788 (talk) 04:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I turned Lui language into a rd. I can't find any evidence that there's an unclassified TB language by that name; it seems to just be an alt name for Sak (unless it's supposed to refer to one of the undescribed varieties reported in the 19th century). Now, if we can figure out just what Southern Luhupa is, we'll have accounted for all of TB with the exception of Sötati-pö. That shouldn't be too hard, should it? I keep coming across comments on how Southern Luhupa is not one of the Luhupa languages, but never an explanation as to what exactly it is. — kwami (talk) 18:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, if you could give some advice for the red links at Bai language (possible relatives of Caijia) and for Vietic Kata, I would appreciate it. — kwami (talk) 16:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Linked for the Bai language. No idea about Kata. — Stevey7788 (talk) 08:44, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!

Linked the third people, who are mentioned in the Lisu article. — kwami (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

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Tai Khang

E17 lists two "Tai Khang" languages of Laos, one unclassified Tai ([tnu], 200 speakers + Vietnam), and the other Kam-Sui ([kyp], 48k in the 95 census). We don't have an article for the latter, and don't mention it in the Kam-Sui article. Should it be added? I want to verify this isn't an Ethnologue error. (I thought we'd taken care of all the Tai-Kadai, but PotatoBot caught this when matching ISO redirects to the ISO codes in the articles. There are three ISO Khang languages in the area, and this one got overlooked.) — kwami (talk) 22:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

They're the same language. Khang is Tai, not Kam-Sui (they're located further up in China, but not Vietnam or Laos). Michel Ferlus (p.c.) said it could be Phu Thai, but there's no data available. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Our Kam-Sui article has a ref that they are found in Viet & Laos,[3] but this isn't the language they're talking about. — kwami (talk) 07:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

San Diego Comic-Con International meetup discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Meetup/LA/SDCC1. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

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reverts

Hi. I'm reverting your cut-and-paste moves. Sorry if useful edits get caught up. — kwami (talk) 04:01, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Yi, dong, yao

Do you have info about number of Yi, dong, yao by county of China? Like this Miao_people#By_county--Kaiyr (talk) 15:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Guizhou map

Do you have Guizhou township-level map?--Kaiyr (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

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'Kelao'

Hey,

Do you have any idea what Matisoff's "Kelao (Gelo)" is in his Hmongic tree? Linglist has it as Gelao, but the fact M. put it in scare quotes suggests he wasn't reclassifying anything. — kwami (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Kwami, that's actually a Bunu lect, which is not Tai-Kadai. It's also known as Naogelao. — Stevey7788 (talk) 10:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!

Zhuang Customs and Culture

The current article has a title that suggests the content should cover all Zhuang however the openning sentance restricts the content to a very small section of the Zhuang and to a single source. Some restructuring is need to allow the article to grow do you have time to do some of that? The matter arose as looking at the title I thought it would be a good place to put a link to The Legend of Wenlong as a well known piece of Zhuang literature, in the current form there no section to include this.Johnkn63 (talk) 04:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Johnkn63, yes I am aware that it doesn't cover all of the "Zhuang" people; they're simply too diverse to really group together as one. I focused mainly on the Zhuang of Wenshan Prefecture, China.

Not much time to write more as of now, but please do feel free to add more content. — Stevey7788 (talk) 10:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Yes there are a lot of different Zhung groups, so ultimately the solution is to have a main article for all, and articles for the individual groups. No problem with having a Wenshan specific article but the title needs to match. Making such a change would be quite a big job not something I have the time for at present but something that does need to be done.Johnkn63 (talk) 16:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I have moved the content of the existing article Zhuang customs and culture to a new article Yunnan Zhuang customs and culture since that is what the list is and the next step to improving the article requires substantial changes of content.Johnkn63 (talk) 12:07, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! — Stevey7788 (talk) 13:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Your welcome!Johnkn63 (talk) 14:00, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

endangered languages per UNESCO

UNESCO[4] lists Samatu as distinct from Samatao, both ref'd to Bradley (2007). Do we need another articleShould we keep the new article, or is Samatu a dialect of s.t. we already have?

Also, any idea about Mra? — kwami (talk) 12:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

And we have a "Phi" languagefor Thailand in list of extinct languages of Asia that I can't ID . — kwami (talk) 05:13, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Rung languages article

I think this material actually belongs in the Tibeto-Burman languages article. There needs to be some discussion about how this scheme differs from and overlaps with other relationship schemes that have been proposed. As a separate article, referenced from various language articles it seems to pop up as a sort of factoid or factoid-like theory, divorced from the context explored in the Tibeto-Burman languages article. I wrote some more on this theme in the talk section of the Rung languages article. LADave (talk) 07:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

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Gelao

Hi,

I assume "plh" is supposed to be [pʰl] and not [pɬ]? — kwami (talk) 07:24, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is. — Stevey7788 (talk) 09:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for IDing Na-Meo. — kwami (talk) 23:26, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome -- at the moment I'm trying to get a hold of Nguyen (2007), Ambiguity in Identity" which has a bit of info on the Na-Meo language. — Stevey7788 (talk) 04:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

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unclear word

Hi,

Could you explain what "merger" means under Pelkey (2011) at Nisoish languages? From the way it's presented, it looks like a contraction rather than the loss of a distinction. — kwami (talk) 19:57, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

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Laopang

At Phunoi language, we cite Bradley that Laopang is a just variety of Phunoi across the border rather than a separate language, but at Hanoish languages we cite him that it's a Bisoid dialect closely related to Bisu. That leaves me confused as to what it is; I also wonder if pi3su4 might be Bisu. — kwami (talk) 18:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Bisoid is part of Hanoish. And pi3su4 is Bisu. Cheers and Happy New Year. — Stevey7788 (talk) 08:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we have Bisoid as part of Hanoish, but appear to contradict ourselves as to where Laopang is in Hanoish.

So, according to Bradley, Bisu is a Phunoi/Sinsali language? It's not very clear how the different classifications agree. — kwami (talk) 08:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

See the tree given in Hanoish languages#Languages. It's in the Bisoid subbranch, which itself in Hanoish, but where exactly Laopang fits within Bisoid is uncertain. — Stevey7788 (talk) 10:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of La Raza (radio) for deletion

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full CHINA 2000 CENSUS material by nationalities

You can download full CHINA 2000 CENSUS material by nationalities (Chinese and English): http://files.mail.ru/D194FFE00957430B91D70A32EADB0DED (choose - Обычное скачивание)--Kaiyr (talk) 20:29, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. — Stevey7788 (talk) 14:26, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

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Norra

Any idea why Glottolog lists Norra language as 'spurious'?[5] — kwami (talk) 19:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It may have simply been another name for Khamyang (cf. Stephen Morey's work). — Stevey7788 (talk) 02:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the word "spurious" threw me there. I'm also trying to ID some Khmuic languages in Voegelin & van Driem: Kha Doi-luang, Kha Kon-tu', & Kha Kwang-Lim. Not finding a mention in Sidwell, except that the first was once classified as Palaungic. Also Bahnaric Galar, Hagu, Jalung/Jelung, Tipri. Any ideas? — kwami (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Stripped of diacritics, the remaining Voegelin langs, w their classifications, are:

Bahnaric: Preng

Khmuic: Kha Doi-luang, Kha Kon-tu', Kha Kwang-Lim (in in Pinnow 1959)

— kwami (talk) 00:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Really not sure about these, I'd have to ask Paul Sidwell. — Stevey7788 (talk) 10:46, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. I'll do that. — kwami (talk) 02:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

map

How to download and use this program an do this map? http://emuch.net/html/201309/6427825.html и http://itbbs.pconline.com.cn/gps/51166455.html --Kaiyr (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2014 (UTC)map

Tujia

Re. [6], maybe you could address that in the Tujia article? Currently we just say it might be Loloish or Qiangic or s.t. else. — kwami (talk) 07:14, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not anyone of those. For example, George van Driem places it as a separate "fallen leaf," and Matisoff couldn't find anywhere to place it either. — Stevey7788 (talk) 09:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Mondzish languages

Glottolog lists Mango, Mantsi, Maza, Mondzi, Muangphe. Is that right? We state that Mantsi and Mondzi are synonyms. Are the others unaccounted for, or do we subsume them as dialects? Do you know if Mango the same as Maang/Mo'ang? — kwami (talk) 01:36, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Those are recently documented, newly discovered languages. But data for them remain in unpublished field notes, e.g. Ziwo Lama's notes, so they can't be cited on Wiki yet. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, we can cite Glottolog. I just wanted to verify with you first. Also, is Mango the same as our Maang, or something new, so that Maang should be added to the list as well? And is the name Mondzi ambiguous between Mantsi and one of the new languages, or was it a mistake to say that it's a synonym for Mantsi? — kwami (talk) 08:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Mango is not Maang; it's something new. There's also Manga. Ziwo Lama (2012) says that Manga and Maang are separate languages. As for Mondzi and Mantsi, they might be closely related but are not synonymous. — Stevey7788 (talk) 02:47, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! — kwami (talk) 06:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

April 2014

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non-IPA vowels

Hi Steve,

Do you know what the difference between ɿ and ɨ̪ is supposed to be at Zibusi language? Is the latter just IPA for the former? — kwami (talk) 02:36, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

No, the two have subtle differences. I haven't seen ɨ̪ used by Chinese linguists, but SIL uses that occasionally. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:22, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you think they might use it for ʅ? Often ɿ means ɯ and ʅ means ɨ, but it looks like they're contrasting them with ɯ. — kwami (talk) 06:22, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I think that's possible, but I'd say it's much better keep it as is. This is in standard IPA, and we're not exactly sure what exact Chinese IPA character the authors meant this to correspond to, so keep. — Stevey7788 (talk) 07:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Kra languages

Discussion over whether we should have an article to match the one on 土蠻語 at WP-zh. Looks like it's maybe a historical form of Gelao. — kwami (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2014 (UTC)