User talk:Seoul Bob
October 2017
[edit]
Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Subak, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use the sandbox for that. Thank you. Breaking sticks (talk) 10:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
reply Subak
[edit]To dear Breaking Sticks, it was a test. And I appologise. If there are any other inconsistencies please write to me.
Cheers. Seoul Bob (talk) 11:02, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Subak
[edit]I have just looked at what you were referring to.
What I removed was validated. You have replaced information which has no bearing on explaining what the msrtial art Subak is. It describes Hwarangdo warriors. And not Subak. Some of that information in also not referenced. Seoul Bob (talk) 11:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Regarding Subak lead
[edit](putting my slightly edited response here just in case you haven't seen it yet)
I removed the information that you put in the lead section because it wasn't sourced and read poorly. You may add it back, but it needs to be sourced (talking to experts in Subak is not enough for Wikipedia) or it will WP:LIKELY get WP:CHALLENGED and removed. You may also want to see WP:ORIGINAL as well. I apologize if this has caused any inconvenience. StaringAtTheStars (talk) 18:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I appologise for the late reply. And I do not mean to be difficult.
Unfortunately there is no reliable information in English regarding the Subak martial art. That is why I used information gathered when talking to experts. I am the only westerner within the Korean Subak / Taekkyon community in Korea. And I thought that first hand information would be helpful to readers.
The small amount of information that is available in English regarding Subak, is unfortunately false and fabricated by Taekeondo quite a few years ago. This information is found in, or referrenced from Taekwondo books previous to 2015 or so.
Most recently, this Taekwondo history has been challenged by Taekwondo scholars. A big shift is occurring in Taekwondo in regards to re writting the previous falsified history. Not to argue, but how would you like to proceed?
regards. Seoul Bob.
Seoul Bob (talk) 00:40, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
AIV
[edit]Hi,
When you're submitting a report to AIV please could you make sure that the vandalism is recent? Of the two reports you submitted one hadn't edited in 13 days and the other hadn't edited since February.-- 5 albert square (talk) 00:34, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi, yes. Thank you for advising. Regards. Seoul Bob (talk) 09:38, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
regarding Taekkyeon-Yetbeob
[edit]Hi. I'm just writing here cause I saw you editing Taekkyeon article. A lot of people misunderstand Taekkyeon as a kicking game when it's a throwing game. Stewart recorded Taekkyeon to be a throwing game. There's also an old newspaper article on Taekkyeon that it's a throwing game (throwing sister in law in water Taekkyeon). https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg
Also, a lot of people pretend that Taekkyeon-Yetbeob is a fake. Such as in this forum.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forums/korean-martial-arts-general.52/
I talked some senses into them with my name Steven Lee, but they just keep pretending that Taekkyeon-Yetbub is a fake. Taekkyeon Yetbub is real. It is Sibak & Nalparam. Maybe you can help me spreading the truth that Taekkyeon Yetbub is real. We just need persuasive references.
1. Taekkyeon has always been teaching both regular Taekkyeon & street fighting Taekkyeon-Yetbeob which hits with any body part including powerful punches with historical Korean traits like shoulder (& torso) rotation, Yongryuk (stacking speed & power in motion), (no fist spin) horizontal fist. Nalparam is a form of Pyunssaum, Sibak (Nanjangbaksi of Bak-si, which is Si-bak) which hits with any body part including punches, kicks, headbutt.
"분단되지 않았다면 날파람도 이어졌으리라. 다행히 1960년 초, 북한의 계정희 교수에 의해 개성에서 발굴된 것이 있다. 논문에서 택견 기능자 발굴이라는 말을 하는데, 북한학계에서는 날파람도 택견으로 보기에 그런 것이다." Translation: "If Korea was not split, South Korea would also have Nalparam. Fortunately, in the early 1960's, North Korea's professor Jungheui Gye found Nalparam artist. In his report, he described that Taekkyeon artist was found. This is because North Korean academia considers Nalparam also as a Taekkyeon."
Nalparam is taught by Taekkyeon. Sibak is Taekkyeon-Yetbeob. North Korea also describes Nalparam to be cross-training Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari. Regardless of how Breaking's system is for China & Japan, Breaking belonged to sidewalk performance art, power circus, power magic to Korean.
2. "시박은 '서로 치는 것은 씨름의 일종인데 역(亦) 탁견'이라고 되어 있다." Translation: "Sibak's recorded, 'hitting each other (Sibak) is a type of wrestling, this is also Taekkyeon'." "시박? 낯선 이름이다. 위의 재물보에 수박과 함께 소개되고 있는 조선 고유의 체술 이었다." Translation: "Sibak? It's an unfamiliar name. Above in Jaemulbo, it's a Korean martial art introduced together with Subak." Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi in 1941, which were quite different from Taekyun.
"경북군위군의 군사(軍士)훈련이었던 박시(재물보상의 ‘시박’으로 여겨진다. 1941년, 무라야마지준의 글에도 언급되고 있다. 수백명의 사람들이 팔짱을 끼고 서로 어깨로 밀어 붙여 진(陳)을 뚫는 것이다. 나중에 동네 왈패들이 신작로에 모여 난장박시라 하는 패싸움을 했었다)등이 있었다." Translation: Gyungbook military training Baksi, etc existed. Seems Sibak from Jaemulbo. 1941's Murayama Jijun also mentions this. Hundreds of people, arms locked, push each other with shoulders to penetrate formation. Later, town thugs gather on the road to do team street fighting called Nanjangbaksi." (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)
3. Yetbub is basically wrestlers street fighting in rules & postures including holding arm & punching at the same time like 1927's Gitssaum (Flag Fight) pictures (except that strikes are more powerful than a plain street fighting by shoulder-rotation, body momentum, Yongryuk stacking speed & power). In 1927's Flag Fighting & 300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Kwonbeop, shoulder-rotation (turning, pushing the striking side's shoulder forward) is observed for punching front for extra mass, strength, speed. Shoulder-push means turning (pushing, rotating) shoulder forward when punching instead of the shoulders being stationary & square.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgeqsmWwAE9by-.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg
As for the texture of Korean strikes, Korean uses Yong which means stacking speed & power in the entire body including arms. Even Korean Ikmyung Yang's 1692's record of breaking a stone with hand strike used Yongryuk.
https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png
Horizontal fist is also observed for punching in 1927's Flag Fight, 100 years old Korean street fighting, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub/Kwonbeop.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/18PfntV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg
Conclusion: There is a second Taekkyeon. Taekkyeon has regular Taekkyeon & also street fighting Taekkyeon-Yetbeob which is Sibak & Nalparam.
Help me spread this truth. A lot of people pretend that Taekkyeon Yetbeob isn't real. Subak is an old art; it is not meaningful to talk about it. But Taekkyeon is a modern art still existing in Korea even today. It's important for people to understand that regular Taekkyeon is a throwing game, not a kicking-only game. Regular Taekkyeon is a throwing game with kicks allowed. Also, it's important for people to admit that Taekkyeon-Yetbeob also exists in Taekkyeon, not just the regular Taekkyeon. There are 2 different Taekkyeon existing in Taekkyeon; the second Taekkyeon is Nalparam and Sibak.
Also, there was no influence of Japanese Taekwondo & Hapkido on Taekkyeon Yetbeob. Taekkyeon Yetbeob's powerful punches use shoulder (& torso) rotation, Yongryuk (stacking speed & power in motion), (no fist spin) horizontal fist which Korean historical records always had.
They banned me at this forum.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forums/korean-martial-arts-general.52/
Cause I did not yield to their claim that Taekkyeon-Yetbub is a fake art created from Taekwondo & Hapkido. I also didn't yield to their nonsense how Korean Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu didn't have Breaking. Regardless of how Breaking's system was for China & Japan, for Korea, Breaking was a power performance art Charyuk/Kihapsul having nothing to do with striking martial arts. I didn't give up my facts; they banned me for not agreeing with their nonsense purely from their wishes, greed, profits, agenda, bias. I didn't have any bias in my writing. Bias in feeling is not bias in works. There's no bias, which means prejudice favoring something. I don't have prejudice in my writing. I only have emotions favoring certain outcomes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 15:10, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
To Mr Lee,
I understand that you like Taekkyon Yaetbop, but many things you wrote were untrue.
You wrote your own opinion instead of fact.
Your writing is not clear & concise.
Your writing needs to be clear & sucinct. To the point.
Kwon bop has nothing to do with Taekkyon, as it was introduced to Korea a long time after Subak.
Boxing and Taekkyon are very different.
Do you live in Korea?
regardd. Seoul Bob (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
So, basically, I'm saying that Nalparam & Sibak (Nanjangbaksi) are Taekkyeon Yetbub. In North Korea, Nalparam is taught by Taekkyeon
[edit]Taekkyeon has always been teaching both regular Taekkyeon & street fighting Taekkyeon-Yetbeob which hits with any body part including powerful punches with historical Korean traits like shoulder (& torso) rotation, Yongryuk (stacking speed & power in motion), (no fist spin) horizontal fist. Nalparam is a form of Pyunssaum, Sibak (Nanjangbaksi of Bak-si, which is Si-bak) which hits with any body part including punches, kicks, headbutt.
"분단되지 않았다면 날파람도 이어졌으리라. 다행히 1960년 초, 북한의 계정희 교수에 의해 개성에서 발굴된 것이 있다. 논문에서 택견 기능자 발굴이라는 말을 하는데, 북한학계에서는 날파람도 택견으로 보기에 그런 것이다." Translation: "If Korea was not split, South Korea would also have Nalparam. Fortunately, in the early 1960's, North Korea's professor Jungheui Gye found Nalparam artist. In his report, he described that Taekkyeon artist was found. This is because North Korean academia considers Nalparam also as a Taekkyeon."
Nalparam is taught by Taekkyeon. Sibak is Taekkyeon-Yetbeob. North Korea also describes Nalparam to be cross-training Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari. Regardless of how Breaking's system is for China & Japan, Breaking belonged to sidewalk performance art, power circus, power magic to Korean.
In medieval Jaemulbo book, Sibak was recorded to be also Taekyun, which would mean also being included in Taekyun.
"시박은 '서로 치는 것은 씨름의 일종인데 역(亦) 탁견'이라고 되어 있다." Translation: "Sibak's recorded, 'hitting each other (Sibak) is a type of wrestling, this is also Taekkyeon'." "시박? 낯선 이름이다. 위의 재물보에 수박과 함께 소개되고 있는 조선 고유의 체술 이었다." Translation: "Sibak? It's an unfamiliar name. Above in Jaemulbo, it's a Korean martial art introduced together with Subak." Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi in 1941, which were quite different from Taekyun.
"경북군위군의 군사(軍士)훈련이었던 박시(재물보상의 ‘시박’으로 여겨진다. 1941년, 무라야마지준의 글에도 언급되고 있다. 수백명의 사람들이 팔짱을 끼고 서로 어깨로 밀어 붙여 진(陳)을 뚫는 것이다. 나중에 동네 왈패들이 신작로에 모여 난장박시라 하는 패싸움을 했었다)등이 있었다." Translation: Gyungbook military training Baksi, etc existed. Seems Sibak from Jaemulbo. 1941's Murayama Jijun also mentions this. Hundreds of people, arms locked, push each other with shoulders to penetrate formation. Later, town thugs gather on the road to do team street fighting called Nanjangbaksi." (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)
Also, in 1930's reputable Korean newspaper, it describes that Taekkyeon was recorded by Muyedobotongji as Gwonbeop including hand techniques. 1930's newspaper recorded that Taekkyeon has contents to be recorded as Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop. Although there may be discrepancies between the military version Gwonbeop and the civilian version Sibak, the newspaper corroborated that Taekkyeon has such contents within Taekkyeon.
https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg
Like Subak had Subakdaeo club to train, Nalparam also had a club to train. "1935년 7월 22일자 동아일보를 보자. [평양]지난 17일 평양서에서는 부내 창전리에서 주소부정의 현기한, 이오 외 십이명을 검거하야 엄중취조중이라는데 그들은 약 일주일전부터 기림리(산림리) 신궁앞 부근에서 부랑배 백수십여명을 모아노코 "날파람이"(망나니 짓이란 의미)를 연습하며". Translation: "Let's see 1935's July 22nd Dongailbo Newspaper. On the 17th, in Pyungyang's Changjeonli, Gihan Hyun, Oh Yi, etc 12 men were arrested and interrogated. They have gathered over a hundred thugs at Girimli (Sanlimli) Singoong's front, practicing Nalparami."
A direct interview with Dukgi Song was recorded in Munyejinheung by Bohyung Lee, published in 1984 by Munyejinheungwon on Volume 11 Number 1 page 67 (이보형, 문예진흥 제 11권 1호, 문예진흥원, 1984.2, p.67, 이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용). "누상동에는 '장칼'이라는 장사가 있어 키도 크고 힘도 좋고 '복장지르기', '가슴치기'등 택견솜씨가 좋았다." Translation: "Nusangdong had a strongman named Jangkal. He was tall & strong; he was good at Taekyun techniques particularly Bokjangjireugi (Front Stomp Kick), Gaseumchigi (Frontal Chest Slap, slapping chest at front), etc." Dukgi Song testified directly about frontal slap in Taekkyeon. "이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용". Translation: "the content recorded by Bohyung Lee from direct interview with Dukgi Song."
https://i.imgur.com/O85h9KH.jpg
The same interview & the same book (by Munyejinheungwon & Bohyung Lee, 1984, Munyejinheung Volume 11 Number 1 page 67) includes Dukgi Song's direct testimony how Taekyun Yetbub broke jaw with 1 slap to the jaw as well as his testimony how Taekkyeon had frontal chest slap.
I cover sports history topics as well as overrated anti-racism topics. Also, I just have motivations like not accepting injustice for Korea & me; I don't have an agenda. Also, emotional inclination (bias) is not necessarily a logical bias. There is no bias in my writings. Also, whether I have agenda or not has nothing to do with the truthfulness of my facts & my topics. Happy coincidence. Just a coincidence.
Bearberserk (talk) 00:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
After you are done fixing Subak & Taekkyeon, could you also fix Breaking?
[edit]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_(martial_arts)#History_of_breaking_in_Korea
I'm trying to emphasize the history of Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu Breaking/Tameshiwari before the history of Karate's Breaking, but the contents are messy and not concise. Could you fix it? Could use fresh eyes who can understand references written in Korean as well as having some general idea about Charyeok/차력/기합술. Basically, all Japan, China, Korea had Breaking/Tameshiwari. Both Japan & Korea had Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul including its Breaking/Tameshiawri. I'm just trying to organize the history. However the edits go, I will be happy if all the references stay in the article.