User talk:Rachel Helps (BYU)/Archive 10

COI template disclosure on talk pages of pages we've worked on

Hi, I'm putting this on my talk page just in case other users who are watching this page are interested in this discussion. @Valereee, my student just added the paid contribution template to Talk:L. P. Hartley. Is that what you had in mind? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, thanks, Rachel! Valereee (talk) 14:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

An update on this--I've gone through the categories for 19th, 20th, and 21st century articles adding the connected contributor template using AWB. I tried to skip pages that already had a connected contributor template, but I may have duplicated information on some pages. There were four pages where I knew of an additional external relationship to the subject, which I disclosed where I thought of them. I plan to add the connected contributor template to the other pages in the maintenance categories. Afterwards, I will see if I can generate lists from my previous students' contribution histories and add them to their appropriate pages. I probably won't finish until mid-May because of other obligations I need to attend to. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

No deadlines, progress is always good! Valereee (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm in the process of adding my student editors to the paid templates I mass-added. I just wanted to note here for future reference that I have not added the paid template to pages where we simply added a small amount of information, a link, or a category. Some examples: Gandhi added works lists to many German authors as part of our Sophie database, JAGrace, myself, and other student editors added many pages to Category:Films shot in Utah while citing Jim D'Arc's When Hollywood Came to Town for the location of shooting, and Katelyn and I added links to findingaids to many pages that we did not otherwise edit extensively. We also added links to musical works that the BYU Library uploaded to archive.org on some relevant pages. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Buttinsky here again...I wonder if, now that things have calmed down a bit, it might be worth having a more focused community discussion about whether we really want to make you spread COI tags all over Wikipedia. ~Awilley (talk) 20:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think anyone was opposed to it. It would help our editing conform to WP:COI behavioral guideline: "you should make the disclosure on your user page, on affected talk pages, and whenever you discuss the topic". Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The tags don't go on articles themselves, and they'd only be on article talk pages related to BYU/LDS, and I agree with Rachel that where minor edits were made that didn't change content, or ones where there's no connection to BYU/LDS, they wouldn't even be needed there. And these tags aren't even all that visible at article talk; most casual editors aren't reading the talk headers. So it's not calling it out to readers and not even to the vast majority of casual editors. Mostly it's just an FYI to other highly-engaged editors: this page has been edited by someone who has declared a COI. Valereee (talk) 13:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think I put COI tags on all of the pages I and my team have edited significantly. I did not limit it to just BYU/LDS pages; I included pages under all the topics we've worked on. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

For me, that's going above and beyond and would make me support lifting the t-ban. Valereee (talk) 21:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban

Per this ANI discussion, you are indefinitely topic banned from LDS Church-related topics, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know, ScottishFinnishRadish. I have some questions about the extent of the ban. Are you the right person to ask? Other editors have informed me that topic bans apply to all pages, including sandbox pages and talk pages. This is what I understand about the ban so far:

1. I am not allowed to add COI templates to the talk pages of pages I have edited in the past. Therefore I will be stopping my little project, mentioned above, to do so. I also cannot request that another user add them on the AWB project request page.

2. I have a few potential COIs that I believe are worth declaring (external relationships with subjects I've written about). However, all the people involved in them are Mormon. How would you like me to proceed? I could declare them in a section here (but would that be violating the TBAN?). Or I could email someone.

3. I have OCD and it is difficult for me to think of any page that is not, somehow, related to Mormonism. For instance, one of my students is working on the page for Dorothy Wordsworth. But yesterday, when one of my classmates mentioned participating in the Wordsworth trust internship, I realized that BYU as an institution has a relationship with Wordsworth as an institution that goes beyond us having a Wordsworth collection in our special collections. No one at the Wordsworth Trust has asked us to edit Wordsworth pages--I doubt they even know my team exists. Maybe the best thing to do would be to declare it. Also, one of the professors in the English department at BYU, Paul Westover, is a Wordsworth scholar and he was cited on the Dorothy Wordsworth page before my student started working on it. We were going to ask him for advice on editing the page, but my student decided not to after realizing he was cited on the page. I think it's okay for us to consult with Paul Westover about the page--would you agree?

I have other questions, but these three seem the most temporally relevant. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Per advice on WPO, I'm going to post at AN asking if it's okay if I post the COI notices on talk pages. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:56, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. One and two seem to be covered by the AN thread. I don't see an objection to you adding COI notices. As for number three, I would seek clarification at AN, as that is right at the edges of related to the LDS Church, broadly construed. As far as consulting with someone with a clear COI on the topic, it depends on what "consult with" means. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:31, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in here, I was reading through this talk page and was surprised to see the topic ban notice at the end. Please clarify, does this also apply to editing by proxy? That is, does the ban also apply to the student employees hired by this editor to edit LDS-related articles? ~Anachronist (talk) 17:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:PROXYING covers this. In short, yes, it applies to editing by proxy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Perhaps the four currently-employed students listed on the user page should receive topic ban notices also.

One further question: Does this ban extend to making edit requests on talk pages of article with COI topics? Although these editors clearly have a COI, that's what edit requests are for, to provide a way for COI editors to have their suggested contributions reviewed by the community. It just seems wrong if the topic ban also extends to edit requests. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I assume that the ban also applies to edit requests. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why it would. That's the whole point of edit requests after all. Specifically, the {{edit COI}} tag is intended for COI editors to use on talk pages. If I were you, I'd ask for clarification, as ScottishFinnishRadish also suggested above. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit requests violate the topic ban. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay. That seems like a nonsensical position to take, however, given that "both sides have equal footing in policy" in the closing statement. So be it. In any case it's up to Rachel Helps to appeal. Thanks for the clarification. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the work you have done

I was pretty shocked to see the recent total ban. It seems extremely heavy handed, the conversation was downright rude at points, and discounts the actual edits you have made, the VAST majority of which have been good. FWIW, thanks for the work you have done in the LDS space. Even though we didn't always agree, it is absolutely in a better place because of what you have done. Epachamo (talk) 14:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

thank you *smiling tear emoji*. Your comment means a lot to me. Whenever I see your name in a page history, I know that page is in good hands. I wish that I had been able to communicate better with people who were criticizing my work, but I felt overwhelmed by the volume of criticisms. Many of them felt like they were outside the scope of my editing (like the general issues people have with paid editing, or with how to approach religious topics). Now that I have a little emotional distance, I think I can see one of the main problems people had with my team's work. A section like the interpretation section on Book of Omni summarizes sources that assume that Omni actually wrote the book (many other pages about sacred writ and about literature on Wikipedia assume the same thing (that the purported/presented authorship is accurate, or at least worthy of textual analysis)). Is there a way to reconcile presenting interpretation of the BoM as sacred writ with NPOV? It seems like an introduction could be "Adherents in the Latter Day Saint movement and other Mormon studies scholars interpret this text based on the assumption that it was written by [insert author here]." Then if there are other naturalistic interpretations, those would go in the same section. There aren't as many naturalistic interpretations, but I think there's a Dan Vogel book that tries to link events in the BoM to events in Joseph Smith's life. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

"I think there's a Dan Vogel book that tries to link events in the BoM to events in Joseph Smith's life." There is. Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet. But best to refrain from discussing such things until after you get the topic ban repealed. (Even discussion of LDS topics here on your talk page can be a violation of your ban.) ~Awilley (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought that discussing the events that led to my ban would be okay and under the umbrella of discussing the ban itself. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I personally see that as right on the line. And I think the best path toward getting a topic ban removed includes staying as far away from the line as you can. ~Awilley (talk) 18:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Good idea. Epachamo, feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss further. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

COI - Ridiculous

It's honestly ridiculous that others feel that all that conflict information needs to be disclosed. Wikipedia is an open platform and every person that edits comes at it from their own past experiences and associations. I find it very sad that some within the Wikipedia community question whether you can summarize information critical of the Church of Jesus Christ, when many of those critics fail to disclose their conflicts of interest and personal biases. Unfortunately, I am not surprised that this is happening, but sad to see it is being institutionalized. --Trödel 21:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Just read some more stuff - indefinitely topic banned from LDS related topics - so sad. Thanks for the work you have done and continue to do. --Trödel 21:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Any chance you'd be willing to help me with something?

Hi Rachel. I noticed that you're also listed as a member over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Craft. An editor I know, Viriditas, has been looking for possible sourcing relating to a pineapple design motif (this was apparently widely used until the late nineteenth century and online sources are lacking). Given your connections with BYU, I was wondering if maybe you had anything useful in your library? Obviously you don't have to do anything on my behalf, but I figured it'd be worth asking at the very least. Thanks, Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Clovermoss is going above and beyond trying to help me, so I must thank them. Rachel, this concerns the article pineapple mania, which is terribly incomplete at the moment. I won't be getting to this until at least early or mid-June so there's no hurry at all. Just so you know, many of the relevant researchers in this field spoke at the 2020, interdisciplinary conference "Power, Promise, Politics: The Pineapple from Columbus to Del Monte" at the University of Cambridge. That link has a list of most of the researchers whose work appears cited in the article. It was a great conference (I only listened to the audio online), but apparently they didn't have enough funding to record and upload the video, which is quite a shame. (Update: All is not lost! They are releasing a major paper or book on the conference findings this year.) In any case, on the design motif front, there are at least four categories that made great use of the mofif: architecture, tableware, furniture, and the textile arts. In terms of the textile arts, needlework in the 19th century used pineapple crochet and lace designs. That's about all the info on the textile arts I have so far, but from what I understand there's a lot out there in archives. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be my pleasure to help! This is a difficult subject to find sources on. I poked around in some of our interior design encyclopedias but I didn't find anything--Pineapple Culture (already cited on the page) has a nice section on the trend though, so I can add that when I come back from my conference next week. I'm going to email our subject librarian and see if she can help too. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s very kind of you. If you’re interested, there’s a secondary yet related topic that I haven’t even discussed that might also yield some results by way of intersection, but who knows. Apparently, the pineapple culture motif is found throughout the southern and northeastern US. The conference proceedings that I mentioned touches on this subject. One fascinating aspect of this is the somewhat unknown connection between pineapple production in the south and slavery. A week or so ago I raised this subject with an editor who specializes in this subject and even they hadn’t heard of it. I’m hoping the forthcoming conference publication will shed additional light on all of this as even I hadn’t heard of the connection to slavery before. Some of this is covered by an author named Catherine Manegold, but it’s hard to find info about her and her work. Viriditas (talk) 09:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I found one of the books. It looks like I bookmarked it a month ago and forgot. Viriditas (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I just had to chance to review it; not much there, some I can use for architectural motif material, but nothing about textiles. I think there are supplementary materials by Manegold that say a bit more, as it looks like the book was used to teach a course at Princeton. Viriditas (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Our subject librarian acknowledged that the available material is sparse and recommended And the Answer is a Pineapple: The King of Fruit in Folklore, Fabric and Food by Claudia Hyles, which I've ordered via inter-library loan (ILL). She also found this article. I also found "A Noble Present of Fruit" but it looks like it's mostly about cultivation. I should be able to review the book later this week. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I added some information from Pineapple: A Global History along with some images (some that I found by searching Commons, some with leads from the book). I'm sad that I can't think of a way to get this piece by Andrew Moore on Commons. This blog post was useful for leads too. The pineapple plate image I took from a website selling antiques, and I'm not sure if the photographer retains the copyright (since a plate is almost? two-dimensional?). We can delete it if I've made a mistake. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

If you're unsure about a file you've uploaded to commons, I've found their help desk to be a useful place to go and ask questions. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks wonderful, Rachel. You are a Wikipedia treasure, a rare jewel. Viriditas (talk) 22:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words. I asked about the image over at the helpdesk. I'm thinking that if we can get enough information about the pineapple as a design motif, we could create a sub-section for it (to distinguish between discussion of the pineapple as classy entertainment). Do we have any definitions for the scope of "pineapple mania"? Is it limited to Europe, or does it include the American interest in pineapples associated with Hawaii? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I put the scope in the lead and I think I sourced it elsewhere. It lasted approximately 150 years, from the early 18th century, after the Dutch methods of growing it caught on in Britain and the rest of Europe (hothouses throughout the region, but also including Russia) to the mid-to-late-19th century, before pineapples were widely accessible through shipping and manufacturing. So more accurately, pineapple mania was said to end right around when James Dole was born. This is because pineapples were widely accessible and cheap enough for the public to buy, which made the upper class lose interest in the fruit as a status symbol. This also corresponded with the start of the pineapple canning industry in the 1860s. Although there are some other sources who widen the end to the beginning of WWI, as virtually all the British gardeners who were part of the hobbyist tradition and had the technical knowledge of growing pineapples in hothouses died on the battlefield. Don’t have the sources at the moment as I’m going from memory and I’m not at my desk but on my phone. Enjoy your Thursday and subsequent weekend. Viriditas (talk) 21:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! The other ILL book I ordered came in. It had a bit about the pineapple motif in East Asian sources, which I didn't include. I was surprised to find that there aren't very many Wikipedia pages for North American pieced quilt patterns. Quilting is very popular here, so I may be able to get sources for images of quilts with those patterns. I'm thinking of creating a page for the Log Cabin pattern, which is very popular, and could include variations like the pineapple one. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds fruitful. :-). I am currently finishing up the O'Keeffe Hawaii series article, which I’m way behind on, but after that I will focus on pineapple mania. Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention: there's a Hawaiian quilting class I want to take, but it's only taught on Oahu. There's been some really interesting articles about it. Given that I have arthritis, it's probably not a good idea for me to do it. I can barely type as it is. I've looked into using voice typing software but I've never really pursued it. Viriditas (talk) 01:07, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I met a textile historian at a conference I went to last week, so I'm hoping she can help me with sources! Thanks for the tip about Hawaiian quilting. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 14:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I would love to hear more about this. I am always in the mood to learn more. Viriditas (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm still trying to figure out when the book for the pineapple conference will be published. In the process of looking, I did discover one additional source that I forgot about: Feast & Fast: The Art of Food in Europe, 1500 -1800[1]. Let me know if you get a chance to look at it. I don't have access to it. Viriditas (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

oh, nice find. I put in a request for that book. One of my neighbors showed me a photo of her pineapple quilt, which was a modern design (not the variant of the log cabin design I was looking for). She offered to let me use the photo, but I was unsure of the copyright. Do you know of any other instances of handicrafts from modern patterns being used on Wikimedia Commons? In the past I have said that they don't quality for copyright as a use-object if there are multiple for sale at a craft fair. But a quilt made from a pattern is very different from that. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:27, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking at the Quilts category now, and I see a lot of modern design motifs that were uploaded, but it isn't all that clear if they entered the public domain. Many others were donated by museums. I see a Dresden Plate motif, but it's possible this is now copyright-free, I don't know. Viriditas (talk) 19:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Oliver Optic's Magazine: Our Boys and Girls has been accepted

Oliver Optic's Magazine: Our Boys and Girls, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. It is commonplace for new articles to start out as stubs and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

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Thanks again, and happy editing!

Qcne (talk) 20:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Requesting access to catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org materials?

I know this is slightly different than normal requests, but I know you are a member of the Church. In looking for information on the LDS related GLOs (Sigma Gamma Chi, Delta Phi Kappa, Lambda Delta Sigma), I noticed that there is a lot on them (including Pledge Manuals) in areas like https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/c3269069-3991-42ec-943b-2300825586c4/0?view=browse&lang=eng . It appears that church membership is required to access them, but on the other hand, it feels like these are not materials that would be sacred or viewed as private to the Church. Do you have any suggestions on the way forward here. I'd also like to have a way that these would be acceptable references since I believe that it is acceptable to have to pay for references, having to be a member of an organization to access is problematic.Naraht (talk) 14:42, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, because of my topic ban, I am not permitted to discuss this on Wikipedia. Please email me and I can discuss it further. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Log cabin quilting block has been accepted

Log cabin quilting block, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as C-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. This is a great rating for a new article, and places it among the top 21% of accepted submissions — kudos to you! You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thanks again, and happy editing!

—TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 21:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikiproject

Hi, I see you've contributed a lot to Mormon folklore, would you be interested in a taskforce on oral tradition? Kowal2701 (talk) 20:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I'd like to know more. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It'd be a taskforce on WP:Anthropology, focussed on cleaning up/improving, expanding, and creating articles involving oral tradition. So far I've got around 12 definites plus 5 interested but busy. I'm still asking people so we haven't had a discussion about the scope and objectives yet. You can see the proposal at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Council#New proposals Kowal2701 (talk) 20:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I agree with the idea to make it a taskforce within Wikiproject Anthropology instead of its own Wikiproject. I'm happy to help other editors find sources. I am not able to edit Mormon folklore-related pages right now because of my topic ban, but there could be some related pages that are within my institution's scope for my team's editing. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Epachamo (talk) 01:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Gail Mazur (July 27)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Asilvering was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Gail Mazur and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

asilvering (talk) 18:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Rachel Helps (BYU)! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! asilvering (talk) 18:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Rachel Helps (BYU)! I found some sources to establish Mazur's notability:
This entry from Gale Literature's Contemporary Authors: New Revision Series
This review of Land's End
This review of Forbidden City
This review of The Common
This review of Zeppo's First Wife ꧁Zanahary꧂ 06:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, being a finalist for the national book award fulfills the notability criteria for academics: "The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level." I know that normally, being a finalist isn't the same as receiving the award, but the National Book award is prestigious enough that it should be sufficient to establish notability. I can also add some of the criticism Zanahary listed. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Gail Mazur has been accepted

Gail Mazur, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thanks again, and happy editing!

asilvering (talk) 19:16, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Paid editing on American literature articles

Rachel you write that you had no intention of silencing me, but when a post begins with the words "Hi, I'm Heidi's supervisor at the BYU Library", the editing dynamic is irrecovably shifted from editors who donate time and those who are paid.

In the thread Valereee opened late in 2020, link, SarahSV writes, you and your colleagues are here as paid editors. You're not here as volunteers who managed to find a way to be paid while continuing to do work for Wikipedia, link and Barkeep49 reminds you While organizationally you might be responsible for that student's edits, from a Wikipedia perspective, they're responsible for their own edits including being aware of the guidelines and policies that apply to them, link. Yet, it appears that in fact your employees are turning to you for advice, or you are providing advice, per this comment I've been giving Heidi editorial advice behind the scenes, and you identified some issues that we should address (which I missed). link, which seems to contravene advice a community member provided in good faith.

According to the thread AirshipJungleman29 opened this spring at AN link there are some sort of sanctions in place. I've taught Alcott and am quite familiar with the topic and there are two concerns. One is the issue of name that I pointed out. I noticed it because the mother, Abigail Alcott, is being referred to by a nickname, which we don't do. I mentioned a good solution, and honestly, you should let Heidi make her own editorial judgment. Beyond, that I'm a bit concerned about some of the sources. As you know Alcott's was a transcendentalist family, and we need to make sure her work is presented neutrally. I've not yet had a chance to look closely at the sources and because I'm retired, living in the country, have some difficulty getting sources, but from a few glances something made me concerned. So I'm bringing this to you for now.

Personally I'd prefer if you let Heidi work directly with me as a member of this community, but unfortunately that puts her in an uncomfortable position, and therefore I need to step away. Which is unfortunate - she has the makings of a Wikipedians and I miss teaching and would have been happy to mentor. As I would have been happy to mentor Noah on American poetry. But I cannot mentor as an experienced editor normally would if there's another editor in the mix. I'm sad this has happened. Victoria (tk) 21:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Victoria, thank you for telling me about your concerns. I'm sorry that my participation in the conversation about editing the Alcott page created such a change in dynamic for you to the extent that you no longer wish to share your advice. The reason I led out with my role is because of the ANI discussion you referenced. Some of the editors said that I have not been disclosing my role as a library employee clearly enough. In an effort to address those complaints, I have been trying to be clearer about my position by using the talkpage banners and making sure that mention my employment when I enter a conversation on the talk page. I do not have any more authority in the talkpage discussion than you or Heidi do.

You've mentioned feeling that paid editors and volunteers cannot work together because of the shift in dynamic. I believe that there is a lot of work that volunteers do that is worth paying someone to do. Volunteers in my state tutor children in how to read, shelve books in libraries, serve food in soup kitchens, organize recreation for children and adults, take meals to senior citizens, provide hospice care, and help people to pay their taxes (among many other things). This volunteer labor is valuable, and is similar to labor that people are paid to do. The existence of a paid position that is similar to a volunteer's work does not negate the value of (your) volunteer labor.

I have been giving my student editors advice on editing. They are still responsible for their own editing, of course, but I try to head off issues when I see them. Since the ANI discussion, I have been trying to prioritize reviewing my students' work. Some editors see the editing my students do as editing by proxy, because I give them assignments of pages to work on (sometimes just a topic; sometimes a specific page). That is why my topic ban also applies to my students.

I was and am grateful to you for your advice on the Alcott page. I agree that we should refer to Louisa's mother by her given name and not her nickname. Are there certain sources we should not be using, or should use with caution? I am not a subject expert.

I believe you are an experienced editor, and that I and my students could learn a lot from you. We will continue to learn from your work on FAs like Ezra Pound whether or not you choose to interact with us personally. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Repeating Barkeep49's (with apologies for repeated pings) statement: While organizationally you might be responsible for that student's edits, from a Wikipedia perspective, they're responsible for their own edits including being aware of the guidelines and policies that apply to them, link. Stating that I try to head off issues when I see them must be done transparently on talk pages. Do the threads where I posted on American poetry fall under the umbrella of "heading off issues". If so, then that should have happened on the talk page, so that editors who interact with your (paid) students understand that there is another person who is telling them how to proceed. Assigning projects isn't really the Wikipedia way: generally editors find something they want to write about or some way to volunteer here that fits their skills and do so without outside supervision. Are you aware of Wikipedia:GLAM? I looked there for BYU and found nothing. Perhaps consider setting this initiative up as a GLAM project, complete with GLAM page and a hub for transparent communication. As it happens, I am a subject expert, both at American poety, and Alcott. But I have limited time to devote to Wikipedia, so will take a closer look regarding sources when/if time allows. Beyond that, however, from many long and candid discussions with students I have a good idea of how young people feel about editing here under certains conditions. The young people in question are placed in an untenable position. Victoria (tk) 14:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The subjects I discuss with my students include source evaluation, interactions with other editors, adherence to encyclopedic style, etc. We are on the Wikipedia:GLAM page under our formal name, Wikipedia:GLAM/Harold_B._Lee_Library, but I haven't updated the page since 2020 because most people external to Wikipedia do not use that page, and internally, other Wikipedians usually encounter our projects through our userpages. There is no Wikipedia policy that page discussion "must be done transparently on talk pages." However, if there are one or two other editors who also prefer that I give my student editors feedback on their projects on talk pages, I can make that change. Since you brought up sourcing at the Alcott page, Heidi reviewed some of the sources and found that there was some consensus that the Saxton biography focused unduly on the effect of Bronson's parenting on Alcott. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

We have a guideline, WP:STEALTH, which says "Because it is less transparent than on-wiki notifications, the use of email, IRC, Discord, or other off-wiki communication to notify editors is strongly discouraged unless there is a significant reason for not using talk page notifications." (there does not appear to be a signficant reason for this communication to take place off-wiki) We also have a policy WP:MEAT which comes into play vis-a-vis self direction "Sanctions have been applied to editors of longer standing who have not, in the opinion of Wikipedia's administrative bodies, consistently exercised independent judgment." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:29, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi HEB, can I take your comment to indicate that you would also prefer that I give my students editing feedback on talk pages? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally I would expect only specific feedback which could reasonably influence a specific edit (for example suggesting a change to the article's categorization) to be made on-wiki, general feedback about editing and performance is absolutely OK to do in private. The "fetch" if you will should happen on wiki, presumably you find yourself involved in discussions/arguments that your students are involved in because they come to you and say "Ma'am, could I have a minute? I'm in a discussion on this talk page..." and I think what Victoria is trying to communicate (apologies if wrong) is that the dynamic created by off-wiki communication through an organizational hierarchy is offputting (it gives the impression of interacting with an entity of some kind, not two distinct people worth engaging with). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

You kinda have it right, HEB, but more importantly how can I engage when there's additional discussion taking place that I don't know anything about? CITEVAR is a thing and I've spent considerable time teaching one of Rachel's (paid) students how to resolve errors via script only to have discussion fizzle and that page now may or may not have a full conversion - which isn't needed if the student has left. I've just left suggestions re issues on Talk:Louisa May Alcott, and honestly I feel bad for the student because they have to engage with me as a community member and additionally engage with their boss. Either way, I'm seeing issues that need to be resolved and talk pages are where we resolve issues, no? Victoria (tk) 19:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

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