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Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Battle of Varna into List of wars involving Hungary. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g., copied content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. Please provide attribution for this duplication if it has not already been supplied by another editor, and if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, you should provide attribution for that also. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. — Diannaa (talk) 13:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Solomon, King of Hungary into List of wars involving Hungary. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g., copied content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. Please provide attribution for this duplication if it has not already been supplied by another editor, and if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, you should provide attribution for that also. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. DanCherek (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for that, I forget to mention this in the edit log. I do next time. By the way I wrote that text in the Szekely page what I copied to the other page relating the Szekelys and the history of Transylvania. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:29, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. You have reverted a comment I made on a talk page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sz%C3%A9kelys&diff=1071098662&oldid=1071050157 under the pretense that it was vandalism. My comment was a valid point in the topic that was being discussed, as it was my intention to provide proper context for the debate regarding wether the subject is an ethnic group or a subgroup. It was made in good faith and therefore cannot be described as "vandalism". Furthermore, the comment did not contain any contentious, false or bad faith arguments that could make someone reasonably assume that the comment was vandalism - aside from my labeling of the Fidesz party as "ultranationalist" - a claim which is supported by reliable sources, and even if it wasn't, it doesn't justify a deletion of an entire post. I will undo your revert, and I will ask that you read WP:ATWV for future reference. Thank you. 46.97.170.40 (talk) 10:55, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited History of Transylvania, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Gilău. Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)
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I created a new one which is better named, because this 2 legendary battle is related and it was almost together in the old medieval chronicle, of course I will expand and make it correct:
Let me be frank, I think that Prince Csaba never existed. I think the stories about Csaba (by Simon of Kéza, and Mark of Kalt) as well as the story involving Prince Zuard & the Sobamogera (by Anonymus, on pp 46-47 of [1] containing Rady's translation, see also Rady's note on pp. 68-69) are all based this short passage:
One part went eastwards and settled in the region of Persia, and they to this day are called by the ancient denomination of the [Magyars] "Sabartoi asphaloi"
— Constantine Porphyrogenitus's De Administrando Imperio, "Chapter 38"
However, I do not know (any) source(s) that refute(s), or at least is/are skeptical of Csaba's existence. Can you kindly provide any? If there weren't any, still fine. I'll keep speculation in the talk pages instead of publishing it in articles. Thanks beforehand!Erminwin (talk) 01:20, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Sabirs were also referred to as Huns. Byzantine documents normally refer to Sabirs as Sabiroi, although the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos (908-959) writes in his De Administrando Imperio that he was told by a Hungarian delegation visiting his court that the Tourkoi (the Byzantine name for the Hungarians) used to be called "sabartoi asphaloi". Possibly some Hungarian group derived from the Sabirs.
I think the Hungarian names many times were adapted wrongly in foreign sources or the Hungarian form was different for the same person. Csaba can be legendary or real figure. If real, historians identify his person with son of Attila like Ernak, just Csaba was the Hungarian name for him. Ernak based the Onogurs. By 568 the Avars, under Khagan Bayan I established an empire in the Carpathian Basin that lasted for 250 years. Related peoples from the east arrived in the Avar Kaganate several times: around 595 the Kutrigurs, and then around 670 the Onogurs.[1]
Probably this can be the Avars/Onogurs, (Hungarian chronicles never mention the Avars, and also the Hungarians named several times as Huns or Scythians, even in the Avar timeline)
“This Csaba is the legal son of Attila from the daughter of the Greek emperor Honorius, whose sons were called Edemen and Ed. When the Hungarians returned to Pannonia for the second time, Edemen was coming with the huge kinship of his father and mother, his mother was from the nation of Khwarazm/Chorasmia (White Huns/Hephthalites). And Ed stayed in Scythia with his father. The Aba clan originated from this Csaba. When Csaba went back to Scythia and he boasted the nobility of his mother in front of the community, the nobility of the Huns despised him, claiming that he is not a true offspring of the country of Scythia, but only such a foreign kind. Why he did not get a wife from Scythia, but he got a wife from the nation of Chorasmia.”
"In the year of 677 after the incarnation of the Lord, 104 years after the death of King Attila of Hungary, in the time of Emperor Constantine III and Pope Zachary - as it is written in the Roman chronicle - the Hungarians came out the second time from Scythia."
Some historians (which can be fringe) think the timeline problems related to the Phantom time hypothesis, and because it was many calendar and confusion and new unified calendar was after 1000 only in Europe.
The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance and it is very possible that they became its ethnic majority.[2][3]
Several contemporary sources mentioned the Hun–Avar–Hungarian continuity and identity, such as "The Avars called Hungarians".[4][5][6][7][8][9] The downfall of the Avar Khaganate at the beginning of the 9th century did not mean the extinction of the Avar population, contemporary written sources report surviving Avar groups.[10] The main work of historian and archeologist Gyula László is the theory of the "double conquest" of the Carpathian Basin by Hungarians in the 5th and 9th centuries. The essence of the theory is that Avar culture is similar, or sometimes identical to Hungarian culture in that period. According to the archaeological findings, the Avars not only survived the end of the Avar state but lived in great masses at the time of the Hungarian conquest. Gyula László suggests that late Avars, arriving to the khaganate in 670 in great numbers, lived through the time between the destruction and plunder of the Avar state by the Franks at the beginning of the 9th century and the arrival of the Hungarians at the end of the 9th century. He points out that the settlements of the Hungarians complemented, rather than replaced, those of the Avars.[11]
The Hungarians arrived in the Carpathian Basin, in a geographically unified but politically divided land, after acquiring thorough local knowledge of the area from the 860s onwards.[12][13][14] After the end of the Avar Kaganate (c. 822), the Eastern Franks asserted their influence in Transdanubia, the Bulgarians to a small extent in the Southern Transylvania and the interior regions housed the surviving Avar population in their stateless state.[13][15] According to the archaeological evidence, the Avar population survived the time of the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin.[16][13] In this power vacuum, The Hungarian conqueror elite took the system of the former Avar Kaganate, there is no trace of massacres and mass graves, it is believed to have been a peaceful transition for local residents in the Carpathian Basin.[16]
^Király, Péter (1997). "A magyarok elnevezése a korai európai forrásokban [The Names of the Magyars in Early European Sources]". Honfoglalás és nyelvészet [The Occupation of Our County and Linguistics] (in Hungarian). Budapest: Balassi Kiadó. p. 266. ISBN963-506-108-0.[page needed]
^Bakay, Kornél. Őstörténetünk régészeti forrásai I-III [Archaeological sources of our prehistory Volume I-III] (in Hungarian). ISBN: 963-7528-32-6, 963-7528-40-7, 963-218-087-9 Year of publication: 1997, 1998, 2005.
^László, Gyula (1978). A "kettős honfoglalás" (The "Double Conquest") (in Hungarian). Budapest, Hungary: Magvető Könyvkiadó.
^Cite error: The named reference :12 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ abcCite error: The named reference :83 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^Cite error: The named reference :1b2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^Szabados, György (May 2022). "Álmostól Szent Istvánig" [From Álmos to Saint Stephen]. Rubicon (Hungarian Historical Information Dissemination) (in Hungarian).
^Kosáry Domokos, Bevezetés a magyar történelem forrásaiba és irodalmába 1, p. 29
^ abCite error: The named reference :84 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ abcCite error: The named reference :22 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^Cite error: The named reference :1b3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^Cite error: The named reference :13 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ abMakoldi, Miklós (December 2021). "A magyarság származása" [The Origin of Hungarians] (PDF). Oktatási Hivatal (Office of Education) (in Hungarian).
The biggest problem of Turanian fantasy is the population genetics, especially the modern Autosomal genetic admixtures. Almost all population of the former communist countries (Slavs or Romanians) cotain higher ratio of Mongoloid/Asatic genetic admixture ratio than modern Hungarians. How can you explain it?--Hefty-priced (talk) 13:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not really and I do not know what are you talking about, and what do you want with that mongolid thing because you did not explain your purpose why do you write me regarding this. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You mentioned László Gyula and his debunked dual conquest theory, which was revoked by him. You believe that Huns and avars are related to Magyars, which is false. That's why it is obvious that you are Turanist fantasta. Hefty-priced (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the turanism means some kind of turkic brotherhood, I do not remember I would write ever about these things. I beleive in the result of the DNA. That is your personal problem if you do not like the science and the result. I also like the very old medieval sources, I also do not think that 1000 years ago the German, Hungarian, Byzantine, Italian, etc authors were turanist who wrote Hungarians related to Huns. Genetic studies revealed that the Huns and Hungarians had a certain relation, especially the ruling class, and the identity of the nation always came from the ruling class. Genetic studies also revealed that the Huns and Hungarians were a very mixed diverse groups, (both mostly Scythian, Sarmatian mix and less Asian), so I really do not think why do you cherry pick only the mongoloid element, which was rather the feature of the Avar elite but not the Avar commoners according to the studies. Regarding today Hungarians, after 600 years (20 generations) everybody has more than 1 million ancestors, what do you expect? But of course people in the same place are mixing each other so the genetic is mostly similar. As Hungarian, in my personal genetic result I have many Asian Hun, Tien Shan Hun, Saka, Tarim mummy, Pazirik Scythian, Asian Scythians, Sarmatians and of course a lot of European Scythian, Hun from Carpathian Basin, and many Avar and Hungarian conqueror sample matches from the proper period which show us the steppe migrations. But of course I have vast amount of local Carpathian Basin sample matches from all ancient periods, because the locals always mixed with the newcomers. I also have German and Slavic sample matches. These things are true for the other Hungarians as I saw many individual results.
You confused [Pan-Turkism]] with Turanism. They are not the same. Turanism also includes fantasy theories of kinship with extinct peoples, e.g. Huns, Scythians, Avars, Sumerians, Etruscans, and also with peoples living today, e.g. Japanese Hungarian Mongols, Native American Indians, Koreans, Finns and Turkic speaking peoples. Interestingly, the pseudo-scientific Turanian origin theory of Hungarians, e.g. kinship with Huns, is 100% consistent with the discrediting narrative propagated by Hungarian-hating Romanian or Slovak nationalists about Hungarians. Hefty-priced (talk)
@Hefty-priced, I am not interested in turanism, however old people did not evaporate but they were the ancestors of the future generations, and all nations mixed in various levels during centuries. Genetics are a real science, morover many of my family members anonym way made a personal test and the DNA company grouped together with them as a family. Also I do not understand what is the business with Hungarian, Romanian, Slovak nationalism that 1000 years old authors wrote Hungarians are related to Huns and Scythians (DNA proved) for example Anglo Saxon map from 1040 wrote in the territory of Hungary "Hun race" Early world maps#Anglo-Saxon Cotton World Map (c. 1040). Please consult with the old high ranked authors from many different countries (sometimes emperor, popes) who wrote this connection, and with modern genetic scholars. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, you follow the methodes and characteritics of pseudohistory. You also follow the fantaasy of Gesta Hungarorum, which is supported only by Romanian historians.
A „sajátos nemzeti érdekeiket” szem előtt tartó román történészek abszolút hiteles műként szeretik bemutatni a Gesztát a nemzetközi közvélemény előtt. 1987-ben Ceausescu román diktátor kérésére még a New York Times-ban is fizetett hirdetésszerű propagandaanyagot jelentettek meg a Gesta "hitelességének" védelme érdekében.[6]
A magyar történészek viszont kezdetektől bírálták a műnek a honfoglalás korára vonatkozó hitelességét. A gesztában szerepeltetett helyi vezérek vagy államok ugyanis teljesen különböznek attól, ami a régebbi német, bizánci, lengyel és kijevi krónikákban olvasható. Információ hiányában Anonymus fiktív hősöket, vezéreket talál ki, akiket folyókról vagy domborzattal kapcsolatos helynevek után nevezett el. Fiktív hősei a honfoglalás során pedig elképzelt csatákat vívtak elképzelt népek és a honfoglalás korában a Kárpát-medencében nem létező hatalmak ellen.[7] A Honfoglalás korára vonatkozóan az Anonymus által "ősi" Kárpát-medencei etnikumokként szerepeltetett kazárok, kunok, görögök, blakok (románok), csehek és rómaiak a 9. században nem éltek ezen a területen.[8]
Read the article of pseudohistory.
Pseudohistory is purported history which:
Treats myths, legends, sagas and similar literature as literal truthIs neither critical nor skeptical in its reading of ancient historians, taking their claims at face value and ignoring empirical or logical evidence contrary to the claims of the ancients
Is neither critical nor skeptical in its reading of ancient historians, taking their claims at face value and ignoring empirical or logical evidence contrary to the claims of the ancients
Is on a mission, not a quest, seeking to support some contemporary political or religious agenda rather than find out the truth about the past
Often denies that there is such a thing as historical truth, clinging to the extreme skeptical notion that only what is absolutely certain can be called 'true' and nothing is absolutely certain, so nothing is true
Often maintains that history is nothing but mythmaking and that different histories are not to be compared on such traditional academic standards as accuracy, empirical probability, logical consistency, relevancy, completeness, fairness or honesty, but on moral or political grounds
Is selective in its use of ancient documents, citing favorably those that fit with its agenda, and ignoring or interpreting away those documents which do not fit
Considers the possibility of something being true as sufficient to believe it is true if it fits with one's agenda
Often maintains that there is a conspiracy to suppress its claims because of racism, atheism or ethnocentrism, or because of opposition to its political or religious agenda[9]
Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke prefers the term "cryptohistory". He identifies two necessary elements as "a complete ignorance of the primary sources" and the repetition of "inaccuracies and wild claims".[10][11]
Other common characteristics of pseudohistory are:
The arbitrary linking of disparate events so as to form – in the theorist's opinion – a pattern. This is typically then developed into a conspiracy theory postulating a hidden agent responsible for creating and maintaining the pattern. For example, the pseudohistorical The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail links the Knights Templar, the medieval Grail Romances, the Merovingian Frankish dynasty and the artist Nicolas Poussin in an attempt to identify lineal descendants of Jesus.
Hypothesising the consequences of unlikely events that "could" have happened, thereby assuming tacitly that they did.
Sensationalism, or shock value
Cherry picking, or "law office history", evidence that helps the historical argument being made and suppressing evidence that hurts it.[12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hefty-priced (talk • contribs) 15:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, your Magyarságkutató Intézet is not considered real scientific organization, since their researchers had no hiigh academic rank or rank at the universities, it was established as political propaganda tool of the recent governemnt, it is part of the NER.
You try to avoid the answer: Why do you use the charateristics of pseudo history? Why do you try to follow unreliable fairly-tale books, like Gesta Hungarorum, which can be called as the Holy script of Romanians. Why do you support such laughable theories like turanism, which is 100% in line with anti-Hungarian Romanian and Slovak propagandas?
Thank you for your answer. (Please do not avoid any questions, and do no cherry pick only a single topic of this discussion.--Hefty-priced (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My family did genetic test with: 23andme is USA, MyTrueAncestry is Swiss company, my closest ancient population is Scythian, and I can see many Hun sample matches. Please consult with them too that you do not beleive in their result, that is your problem not mine. 1000 years old German, Hungarian authors, Byzantine emperors, ... etc were clearly not turanist. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are no Scythian option in genetic tests. Neither genetic testing companies use such pseudo-scientific terms when they sent the results of the tests vie e-mail. There are several pseudo-scientific game calculators (or clown calculators) where you can upload the DNA test files, and give you anceient fantasy ancestors. They are used often by nationalist teenagers instead of serious adult people.
--Hefty-priced (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are thousand of archeogenetic analyzed samples, and scholars are uploading them to the archeogenetic database. And the DNA of modern population are compared with them. That is still not my problem that you deny the existence of it.
So you say the ancient population above Black Sea (Scyhia) in Europe was Mongoloid? (There are also blond Scythian mummies in western China.) Morover Scythians were in the Carpathian Basin also: Agathyrsi.
Scythians as an ethnic group were born in the borderlands of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, thus their Mongoloid / Causcaisan admixture is not surprising but expected. Scythians were not so advanced to create any aristically signifficant values, most of their gold and sylver artifacts were created by Greek and Persian masters.--Hefty-priced (talk) 17:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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I am writing because you are clearly interested in the medieval history of Hungary. In the recent period, many developments have been made in order to genetically identify the members of the Árpád dynasty (and also the Hunyadi family), which is a joint project of the Szeged Archeology Center and MKI (The royal tombs of Székesfehérvár, the Reliquary of St. Ladislaus, the identification of graves by radiocarbon analysis, either in Egres or Abasár, etc.). I think that a separate article could be written about this, where the current development could always be expanded. I am happy to undertake this, but I think my background knowledge is not enough. However, it would be good to collect the sources (MKI has published monographs on the subject in English). What do you think about this? I also wrote about the matter to another editor User:Gyalu22, who is also active in the topic of medieval history. Norden1990 (talk) 15:28, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Norden1990 and Gyalu22! I am happy to participate in this with you. I think I have a good knowledge about the topic because I usually follow those researches, and also I have many sources regarding this. Also they have a youtube channel, many videos where they explain the result to make it more understandable, and also they are making many kind of history conference with many kind of scholars, with foreign scholars also. I and my family also have personal genetic result and I saw many genetic result from other Hungarian people, and these results are in harmony with the genetic results of the MKI.
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Hi. You provided a link but I cannot access the website. The portrait definitely does not look contemporary. Could you please provide some details about the source publication and also about the file (author, date, etc)? Surtsicna (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is very rare to find contemporary medieval portraits. For example, many other similar articles use non-contemporary portraits (because contemporary portraits not available) List of Hungarian monarchs, please check the ruler articles. It is very strange that links does not work for me at the moment, but it worked and I downloaded the book some hours earlier, please try later. This is the book of the Este family: Genealogia dei principi d'Este
A portrait is not required. Per MOS:LEADIMAGE, it is better not to have a portrait than to have a poor portrait. That 15th-century miniature looks very much out of place, in my opinion, because the subject is a 13th-century woman. It is especially jarring that she is dressed in Renaissance fashion. I think a wider image would be appropriate at House of Este, but not necessarily in individual articles on people who lived much earlier. Surtsicna (talk) 19:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surtsicna, Do you think these non contemporary portraits are better? Should we remove them? I do not think so. You know many paintings and satues were erected much later to represent historical persons.
WP:OTHERCONTENT is a very good essay: that crap exists in other articles is no reason to have crap in this article. The examples you listed include a legendary person (of whom, naturally, there can be no contemporary portrait); a nearly contemporary depiction (also a likeness) made for the subject's tomb by a famous sculptor; and a nearly contemporary portrait made from the memory of eyewitnesses and universally associated with the subject. They are not comparable to an obscure illustration made two centuries after the subject lived. Does this illustration appear in any biographies or reference works on Beatrice? Surtsicna (talk) 19:43, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you do not like when her own Este family made a family book later about the family members? We can ask third opinions about this, but following your logic we could remove thousand of infobox images, I think users were not happy. If we do not have contemporary portrait, still I do not understand why would be problem to use later depictions. Almost all medieval wiki pages full with them. I think you know there are hundred of future depictions of famous peoples, battles. Forbid to use them? Or you have problem only in the usage in the infobox? But we can use in the article as mention "depiction in X book from 1500? OrionNimrod (talk) 20:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not like it when we use as lead images those illustrations that are not used in reliable sources discussing the subject, especially academic (scholarly) ones. Those images belong in the body of an article, preferably a "Legacy" section or something similar. The lead image should inform, not merely decorate and certainly not confuse. Surtsicna (talk) 05:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you mean. But following to this thinking, we could remove all images from all persons in the medieval times. For example we could remove the images almost from all kings, because the majority of them are not contemporary. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not quite true. Most have contemporary images. But they do not have to be contemporary if they are commonly associated with the subject. This image is probably not found in any source discussing Beatrice's life. But if you feel so strongly about it, let's at least have a caption warning the reader that the image does not represent what she looked like or even what any 13th-century woman could have looked like. Surtsicna (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand why would be a problem if the own Este family made a illustrated family book later about the family members. Which is clearly associated to the subject. We can mention where is the image, 15th century depiction from that book, etc. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:33, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is very good to see that you are making a more informative table of the list of Hungarian rulers. However, it would be nice if the article was accompanied by sources. For instance,
Báling, Péter (2021). Az Árpád-ház hatalmi kapcsolatrendszerei. Rokonok, barátok és dinasztikus konfliktust Kelet-Közép-Európában a 11. században és a 12. század elején [The Power Relations of the Árpád Dynasty. Relatives, Friends and Dynastic Conflict in East-Central Europe in the 11th Century and Early 12th Century] (in Hungarian). Arpadiana VII., Research Centre for the Humanities. ISBN978-963-416-246-9.
Kristó, Gyula; Makk, Ferenc (1996). Az Árpád-ház uralkodói [Rulers of the House of Árpád] (in Hungarian). I.P.C. Könyvek. ISBN963-7930-97-3.
Wertner, Mór (1892). Az Árpádok családi története [Family History of the Árpáds] (in Hungarian). Szabó Ferencz N.-eleméri plébános & Pleitz Fer. Pál Könyvnyomdája.
I have doubts about some dates, however. For example, it is impossible that Andrew III would have been king on 10 July 1290, since he was still in captivity in Austria on the day of the assassination of Ladislaus IV. He was smuggled out of the country by the monks of Archbishop Lodomer. On the other hand, Coloman had to fight for the crown with his brother Álmos following the death of Ladislaus I, and was crowned king only in early 1096. Just one more comment: in the case of Charles I and Louis I, would it not be more appropriate to use the contemporary depictions (the miniatures of the Illuminated Chronicle)? But these are just small comments, the list itself is very impressive and informative. I'm glad to see that medieval Hungarian history is of interest to someone other than me here on Wikipedia. Norden1990 (talk) 23:21, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Norden1990 (talk), thanks for your kind feedback! I did it according to my best knowledge, I checked both Hungarian and English wiki regarding the kings. You can update that content which you think it is not perfect, or maybe with this: (?). I think in modern times it is more attractive and easier to learn if we could combine the good informations with good design. I already updated the full Chronicon Pictum, however I plan to buy the book and use much better photos later, I also started to update the Chronica Hungarorum so later we can easier use the best quality images. I also made many work on wiki common, descriptions, category, uploads regarding the subject. For example what do you think about the coat of arms before Stephen? Chronicles said it was the Turul. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:53, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I already talked with @Borsoka and she let the text I wrote in. Historians' consensus is that his father was Vlach/Romanian and there are only legends about his mother two centuries later. Talk with @Borsoka. I will put back what I wrote. Ninhursag3 (talk) 06:50, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
John Hunyadi'S father was Wallachian/Vlach. Wallachian and Wallachia come from Vlach (exonym from German that means Romance/Latin language speaker). Vlachs called themselves Romanians. Ninhursag3 (talk) 07:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
John Hunyadi's mother is unknown according to contemporary sources. Only that she was born before 1400 in order to give birth to John Hunyadi. Gáspár Heltai notoriously reworked Antonio Bonfini's Ten Volumes of Hungarian Matters (written between 1488 and 1497) which Heltai published in 1575 as "Chronicle of the Hungarians’ Past Deeds" and added his own text to it. Including adding Erzsébet Morzsinai as Voyk's wife and John Hunyadi's mother. Ninhursag3 (talk) 07:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you want proof, the best proof is the fact that @Borsoka left my last edit alone before you changed it. You can ask her. I already talked with her about the topic. Not about John Hunyadi's mother though. I made a topic on the John Hunyadi page, please read it. Thank you in advance, have a nice day. Ninhursag3 (talk) 10:14, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit to Vlach law has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. — Diannaa (talk) 21:31, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Diannaa, sorry for that, I will be more careful. I already rephrase every sentences what I use from source to respect copyright, probably I was not enough carefully in this case, however I changed the text, it seems it was not enough modification. OrionNimrod (talk) 08:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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I've already warned you once. I am warning you again to appropriately portray academic discourse regarding the origin of the Romanians. In Decree of Turda, you've only included Hungarian sources referring to the Romanians as settlers in Transylvania. If you show you're not able to edit Wikipedia from a neutral point of view showing both viewpoints in a heavily controversial area you will be sanctioned. The solution here is to either use sources showing both viewpoints or at the very least attribute the sources you use ("according to X, whatever"). If you cannot do this I am going to report you to the administrators. SuperΨDro10:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Super! As Hungarian editor I have almost only Hungarian sources and you can see I am focusing only Hungarian topics: User:OrionNimrod There are many common Hungarian and Romanian historical events, so sometimes the articles regarding each other. All Hungarian sources universally claim the Romanians as settlers in Transylvania, which is part of the Hungarian history, I cannot do anything, because this is the Hungarian historiography and knowledge. Decree of Turda and List of Papal Tithes from 1332–1337 in the Kingdom of Hungary made by medieval Hungarian administration so Hungarians sources know about them. Also I know a lot of non Hungarian historians from many countries who claim the same, the reason is simple, because Hungarian historiography (and German, Austrian, Polish...) does not know about any Romanian presence in the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary before 1200, example: British historian about Hungary, Martyn Rady book: "The sources consistently refer to Wallachia as being a largely uninhabited woodland before the thirteenth century, and, until this time, they contain no explicit references to Vlachs either here or anywhere in Hungary and Transylvania." I do not know Romanian language, I do not know the Romanian sources, and I see most of the articles the Romanian POV already presented while the Hungarian is not. I asked at the Papa Tithes source to ask Romanian contributors to extend it. However probably you are right, and those content belongs better to the history of Transylvania where already both POV are presented. I understand that you say both POV should mention, that is why I do not understand because after you reverts the Decree of Turda article represents only the Romanian POV. Earlier this edit [2] incited me to represent the Hungarian POV, and earlier that article represented only the Romanian POV. Which one, you can see it was questioned also by Borsoka because the decree of Torda does not mention any religious things, and I showed the Hungarian POV to explain the reason for the harsh actions toward Romanians. I agree with you, I can use "according to X", in this article I did this: Vlach law, please check it, what do you think? (however many Romanian claim should also write "according to Romanian historiography", and I think in many case not only Hungarians claim the same, so it is hard to phrase). OrionNimrod (talk) 19:26, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is not true that all non-Romanian scholars support the commonly held view by Hungarians. As an example of a scholar supporting the Daco-Roman continuity theory there is Keith Hitchins. This is a notion that you should not count with. In Hungary, virtually all scholars support the immigrationist theory, in Romania the same with the Daco-Roman one, but international scholars are mixed. I've honestly seen more supporting the Daco-Roman continuity one but I assume this might be due to my own bias which might be what has happened to you.
I don't know Hungarian either however today in the Internet era it is easy to translate sources. If I had do I could pick some Romanian sources and translate some Hungarian ones and synthesize and balance the information present to them in a neutrally-written article. This is what you should do, it is complicated but required. This is one of the reasons I avoid the Transylvania feuds in Wikipedia, almost all historiography is blatantly nationalist, there's a lot of trash. I please ask you to treat this topic with more care in the future as I don't like seeing articles in Wikipedia addressing the Hungarian view only as a Romanian. You've told me the same happens to you regarding the Romanian view, and you're on your right, that needs fixing too, but that shouldn't mean that some articles should therefore only show the Hungarian view like some show the Romanian one only. Ideally this should motivate contributing to the feat that all articles become neutral and balanced, adding Hungarian views to those articles and writing neutral ones. Otherwise you'd be further contributing to the problem rather than fixing anything.
And yes, Romanian sources should also be attributed when necessary. I didn't imply that all Hungarian sources must be attributed all the time by the way, only the possibly controversial statements should. An example: which was not resolved and was further complicated by legal and social aspects of the settlement of Romanians in the Hungarian counties. This is simply showing the Romanians as settlers and presenting it as a factual statement when it is not known if that was the case. This is a controversial statement and it needs to be attributed. Info treating more inoffensive matters, which will be most of the info in an article unless about a topic like Origin of the Romanians, doesn't have to be attributed. I assume what happened in the case that I cited that a primary historical source mentioned the Romanians in a context of problems in Transylvania and the author you cited, Benedek Jancsó, combined this information with his already set in stone view that Romanians are migrants and wrote that it is precisely the settler Romanians, because of their settling, that were causing the problems. Maybe the historical source did mention the Romanians as directly causing the problems but I would not be surprised if Jancsó exaggerated it. Maybe you're now seeing the problem in this academic area. Many authors interpret the sources to favor their views.
By the way, I don't know why would you think an info presenting Romanians as violent people attacking fields and stealing and killing each other was a good idea. It seriously makes me concerned about what do you consider is appropriate for an article. You even presented this as factual, unattributed. I am 100% sure no such article does the same about Hungarians. There is a point in which we have to question the author's professionality. It probably also matters that the source is from 1931 right after the Treaty of Trianon in isolated Hungary. Historical context is important to consider, like you would I would not blindly trust the integrity of a Romanian source talking about Northern Transylvania in 1942. See also the Wikipedia policy WP:AGEMATTERS.
And yes, I am aware of the edits you mention at Decree of Turda. I reverted them too because I realized you added those edits because of that. Next time though, the best solution could be starting a discussion with the user that added the information you disagree with.
Lastly a note. By attributing I mean "According to János Bárth", or "János Bárth argues that". "According to X historiography" is too general and would get repeated too often in an article. SuperΨDro20:45, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Super! I see you are nice and smart. I understand what you mean, I can accept, because I agree Wiki should be a great and high quality intellectual material, which should present all academic views. Could you cooperate with me in those cases where the topic is sensible and the Hungarian and Romanian POV are different? Because I know the Hungarian sources, you know the Romanian sources it would be good to publish both POVs regarding the same topic. OrionNimrod (talk) 10:10, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately Transylvania is not among my interests, I am more interested in diaspora areas like Bukovina, Timok Valley or Transnistria. I would say Transylvania if not second to Bessarabia is the primary region in the mind of Romanian patriots so you will be able to find other Romanian editors in this topic area, hopefully with good intentions.
By the way, you made a good job here [3]. I'm glad to see you've understood these concepts quickly. The only other thing I'd note is the format of references. There's two ways of citing: <ref> etiquettes and sfn templates. Do you understand what I did here [4]? Because consistency should be kept if an article is written using sfn templates. Hopefully you will be able to understand how do those templates work, though if necessary I can explain you.
I don't have any other issue with your edits. Many thanks for your understanding and cooperation. I apologize if my tone might've been harsh at first. SuperΨDro14:06, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ha esetleg Bulcsú cikkét jelentősen ki tudnád bővíteni a közeljövőben, az nagyszerű lenne. Én nem igazán vagyok otthon a magyar őstörténetben + a nagyfejedelemség korában, ezért nem is nyúltam még hozzá. De mégis csak a 10. században legtöbbet emlegetett magyar törzsszövetségi vezetőről van szó. Forrást, ha gondolod, segíthetek összegyűjteni a számodra. Norden1990 (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Norden1990, Ha megnezted kivancsian meghallgatnam hogy szerinted mi nem stimmelt abban amit mondott, ha lesz ilyen abban az eloadasban. Nekem jo osszefoglalonak tunt, Bulcsu is benne van azert jutott eszembe. OrionNimrod (talk) 02:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Szia! A tárnokvölgyi csatáról illetve az ahhoz kapcsolódó hun-magyar hagyományról jelent meg egy új tanulmány Veszprémy László tollából a legújabb Hadtörténelmi Közleményekben (2023. 1. sz. március). Később majd ingyenesen is letölthető lesz a szám. Norden1990 (talk) 20:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Egyelőre nem elérhető (szerintem csak jövő év elején lesz az), de átküldhetem e-mailben, mert a könyvtárban kifényképeztem. --Norden1990 (talk) 21:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Rerum Hungaricarum Decades for deletion, because it's a redirect from an article title to a namespace that's not for articles.
If you don't want Rerum Hungaricarum Decades to be deleted, you can contest this deletion, but don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.
You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Thanks!
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Your edit to Sopronbánfalva has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. Azure94 (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Diannaa, @DanCherek, I contacting with you because you are part of the copyright team. An user started a harrassment campaign (WP:HARASS) against me, he follows me on many articles with personal insults, blacklist persons, he deleted now content (the full chapter, every single sentences as personal revenge) what I wrote myself with my own words as allegedly "copyright violation". https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sopronbánfalva&diff=prev&oldid=1168067789
Well this is the English Wikipedia, and the source text was not English what I used, I also used several sources adding/removing contents by my own taste and using my own language to write the article following the sourced contents. Because Wikipedia needs reliable sources, it means we can adapt the same content just change the language to avoid copyright issue. Please check the full text which was written by me and which was removed by the user, please check it whether it is violate any copyright or not. OrionNimrod (talk) 16:20, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it means we can adapt the same content just change the language to avoid copyright issue
Sorry, but no. You can't "avoid" copyright by just switching the language used. A cursory glance at the article shows that you lifted entire paragraphs outright. Azure94 (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A word for word translation or even a paraphrase is not okay, as it violates our copyright policy. The content needs to be re-written completely, in your own words. — Diannaa (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you believe that the article is not a copyright violation, or if you have permission from the copyright holder to release the content freely under license allowed by Wikipedia, then you should do one of the following:
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Hi, In the field battle, the Turks are chasing the Hungarians back to the castle. It is common for Mehmed to be injured because Mehmed was trying to gather his army on the battlefield. Seeing that Mehmed was fighting, the Ottoman soldiers quickly united and attacked the Crusader army and pushed the Hungarians back into the castle. After this war, the Hungarians lost their former power, they could not raise such a large army even in the Battle of Mohacs (although there was crusader support). That's why I wrote the Pyrrhic victory. And İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı says that he prevented a crusade from taking place thanks to the resistance of the Turks in the field battle. I would be grateful if you read and evaluate my comment. Keremmaarda (talk) 11:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see you have some alternative history about this, you can study this, that siege is very popular, none of them claim your fringe claimes, you need to study them:
"Pyrrhic victory" the siege of Belgrade in 1456"??? Article itself say that victory stopped for 70! years the Ottoman adavance. Noon bell came from that victory. "Turk won the battlefield"? How? Hungarians defeated the Ottomans at battlefiled, the sultan wounded the Ottomans retreated fast. That siege is the most famous Hungarian victory against Ottomans.
The Kings And Generals page is not a safe source. It contains a lot of wrong information about Mehmed. https://youtube.com/eOxQhnqMfp4
From the link I gave you, if there are subtitles, you can watch the video in detail and understand what I'm talking about. I can give you a lot of sources that the Turks won the field battle. You once told me "we use academic resources given by historians". So why don't you use it now, Mr. OrionNimrod? Keremmaarda (talk) 12:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Historians has different POV that is why "4000-34000" include more sources, we need use what is in the academic historical documents not by our opinion. I added additonal Hungarian sources from the biggest and detailed Hungarian military history book." You gave me this argument for the Kosovo war. Tansel, Uzunçarşılı and many Turkish historians say that the Turks won the pitched battle. Now why not stick to your own argument? Keremmaarda (talk) 12:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is valid. I doubt you have sources which say that siege of Belgrade 1456 was not a Hungarian victory or pyric victory :D You know the flat earth theory has followers but it is fringe because mainstream academic has different opinion. I added just estimations and I did not rewrite complete the battle as you want. OrionNimrod (talk) 12:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I did not deny that the war was a Hungarian victory. I'm just saying that your Hungarians are war-torn. That's why I wrote the Pyrrhic victory. The battle in front of the castle, which took place in the victory campaign I mentioned, and the Turks here prevent the crusader army. İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı says that he prevented the crusade from taking place. Ismail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı is a historian, isn't he? Keremmaarda (talk) 13:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know what the Turks prevented, they retreat hasten when they were defeated front of the caslte, the sultan was wounded and faint.
In many battles both parties have great losses and it does not mean all of them was pyrrhic victory, in the case of Belgrade the Hungarians did not loss full their army. I do not your historian you do nor provide any link to any academic book. I doubt you have any historical source which say that Belgrade battle would be pyrrhic victory. Wiki is not a personal blog. OrionNimrod (talk) 14:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. OrionNimrod, only Hungarian cavalry 12 thousand how can there be 4 thousand trained soldiers? Is the situation dire enough for the Hungarian king to land only 4,000 soldiers? Were the Hungarians such a bad kingdom? And the pope is declaring mobilization, and soldiers come in droves from almost every state.The number of untrained soldiers (beggars, peasants) consists of 10 thousand people. King John Hunyadi is sending them ahead anyway. Keremmaarda (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, the Turkish translation of Andre Clot said in his book that there were 12 thousand horsemen and 1,000 spahi. And I never wrote that there was an Ottoman victory. I said that the Turks won the pitched battle, which is true. https://683701.site123.me/yaz%C4%B1lar/fatih-sultan-mehmed-in-bat%C4%B1-seferleri Examine the page. When the Grand Viziers offered to retreat to the Sultan, Sultan Mehmed took his sword and knocked down the three people who came upon him and started to counterattack. This move rallied the dispersed army and prevented a possible defeat. Sultan Fatih was injured in his forehead and calf during this battle. While this would have been a terrible defeat for an ordinary ruler, it was just a bad experience for the Great Turk. Because a few months would be enough for him to gather the army he lost again and make up for his deficiencies. The human resources and economic power of the Ottoman Empire were the most obvious indicators of this. While the new preparations were made, Fatih Sultan Mehmed organized a magnificent circumcision wedding for his sons Beyazıd and Mustafa to fix his deteriorated image. Big Turk, He says that Mehmed prevented the defeat and that he recovered in a short time.If the Turks stopped advancing for 70 years, how was Bosnia invaded and captured? And only Mihaloğlu Ali Bey has more than 100 influxes to Hungary.While Mehmed was rapidly gathering large armies before 1 year passed, the Hungarians could not raise armies as large as before.Keremmaarda (talk) 10:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"When the Grand Viziers offered to retreat to the Sultan, Sultan Mehmed took his sword and knocked down the three people who came upon him and started to counterattack. This move rallied the dispersed army and prevented a possible defeat. Sultan Fatih was injured in his forehead and calf during this battle. While this would have been a terrible defeat for an ordinary ruler, it was just a bad experience for the Great Turk. Because a few months would be enough for him to gather the army he lost again and make up for his deficiencies. The human resources and economic power of the Ottoman Empire were the most obvious indicators of this. While the new preparations were made"
It says " this would have been a terrible defeat for an ordinary ruler, it was just a bad experience for the Great Turk. Because a few months would be enough for him to gather the army he lost again and make up for his deficiencies." which means the sultan was defeated but the empire was strong, so he could gather again a new army for the future, which means the defeat was not a fatal for him.
He says that the sultan prevented the defeat and gathered the army again. If the rout was averted, how could the Turks have lost the pitched battle? Yes, the source I gave is a reliable and academic page. I admit that the general campaign was a Hungarian victory. What I am talking about is the field battle in front of the castle. And Bosnia is a kind of vassal under Hungarian rule. In fact, Turkish sources write that Serbia and Bosnia are tired of the Catholic Hungarian domination. Keremmaarda (talk) 12:29, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I want to add something too. Taking İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı as a reference about the Mohaç war, he said 150 thousand people to the Hungarian army. İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı says 300 thousand people for the Ottoman army. Since İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı is an old historian, he cannot benefit from modern sources on army numbers. That's why I think it is wrong to base the sources on the army numbers. You can read the Mohaç section of the PDF I sent you. It says 300 thousand to the Ottoman army and 150 thousand to the Hungarian army. Keremmaarda (talk) 22:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, I've said it many times. I just said that İsmail Hakkı refers to the number of armies he gave about the Hungarians. If the sources of İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı in the number of the army are taken as a reference, it is necessary to write 300 thousand people to the Ottoman Empire. But this is a huge number for that period because Halil İnalcık says that there were a maximum of 117 thousand active soldiers during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent. Ismail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı should not be taken as a reference regarding the number of armies within the two sides. Good day Mr OrionNimrod Keremmaarda (talk) 02:53, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The same thing is mentioned in Yılmaz Öztuna's book called Suleiman the Magnificent, pages 39-40
You can look at Joseph von Hammer's Ottoman History, Volume 5, page 76. Oda says that the Hungarian forces were that big, yes, modern estimates do not accept this, but some sources mention these figures. Göktuğ538538 (talk) 00:11, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's be objective, if the Hungarians were recruiting more soldiers than the Ottomans during the reign of Sultan Suleiman, the most powerful state of that period was the Hungarians, not the Ottomans. Just in case, the army of Suleiman the Magnificent should be larger. Keremmaarda (talk) 02:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These users (or this sockpuppet user) always edit only the info boxes, rewrite many Ottoman battle articles to Ottoman victory, or if Ottoman lost he rewrite like "Ottomans just went home from a "picnic" due to the bad weather", he decrease always the number of Ottoman army and casualties while he always increase the number of enemy and their casualties. Even he rewrote the the famous Siege of Belgrade was just a pyrrhic Hungarian victory (which stopped the Ottomans for 70 years) and he rewrote the Turks won the battle. He always remove modern academic sources and replace it with 200-500 years sources with bad referencing stlye that hard to check if true of twisted.
Hello OrionNimrod! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as Chronica Hungarorum, but we regretfully cannot accept copyrighted material from other websites or printed works. This article appears to contain work copied from [13][14][15][16], and therefore to constitute a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policies. The copyrighted text has been or will soon be deleted. While we appreciate your contributions, copying content from other websites is unlawful and against Wikipedia's copyright policy. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators are likely to lose their editing privileges.
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You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Bratislava. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Points to note:
Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
Please do not report disruptive editing, or the use of questionable maps, to me. You may report disruptive editing at WP:ANI, which sometimes deals effectively with disruption, but sometimes the discussion either becomes bogged down or becomes a great monster. You may also report disruptive editing in a contentious topic area at Arbitration Enforcement, and, as you saw, I have notified NeimWiki that Eastern Europe is a contentious topic. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The principality of Moldavia is in the alliance alongside Venice. And all wars that took place between 1463 and 1479 are included in that category. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Mr. Orion Nimrod, do you have any sources that give the number of the Ottoman army in the siege of Belgrade according to different Hungarian sources? Are there any Hungarian sources that say there are 30 thousand people? Keremmaarda (talk) 13:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Though our points of view differ, please refrain from reverting my edits 3 times. I request that you restore my content and start a conversation on the talk page.
Hi @Elvisisalive95, thanks for the link, it would be good to place in the article talk page also. [17]
Kingdom of Hungary had more or less 1000 years long the same borders. But in 1920, 2/3 of its territory with 1/3 ethnic Hungarians were taken away by the Treaty of Trianon. Hard to understand why, but this is a common practice in the new states which got territory from Hungary (Romania, Slovakia) to claim everybody else (mostly famous Hungarians) how lived in the region what they got as own ethnic person even if that person lived 1000 years ago when those states and nations did not exist at all.
That is why Johnny Weismüller became "Romanian" or the famous German rocket engineer also: [18] There are extreme examples when King Stephen of Hungary (997-1038) claimed as "Romanian king" or even as "Slovak king", or the old Hungarian script claimed as both Romanian or Slovak, etc...
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Feel free not to participate in the discussion if you do not wish to, I have included you as you were the only other participant in the talk page discussion, it'd have been more rude not to include you in my view. Thanks for your participation so far by the way, I will mention the professional formation of İbrahim Akyol if given the chance. If you find anything notable about Muhittin Eliaçık, please let me know, either here or there. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Mr. OrionNimrod. I will probably get a permanent ban. I wanted to thank you before I go. When I first started Wikipedia, you were my first interlocutor, you treated me like a human being and responded to my discussions and topics. You were the first to teach me right and wrong here. Maybe you hate me, maybe you will complain about me, but I see you as my friend and you are the only editor you care about here. That's why I wanted to say goodbye to you. Even though we argued and fought, we had good memories with you here (at least for me). See you brother, take care. Keremmaarda (talk) 09:52, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Keremmaarda, thanks for your kind words! I think just follow the rules, be kind. Because it is an international team it is normal that there are many different views by historians for certain events. If they realiable modern academic sources, we can present more views, (if not fringe, like the flat earth theory). Do not make edit war, just use talk page and make a consensus. Regarding the sources, example: I think this Turkish movie about the siege of Contantinople cannot be a reliabe historian source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4TOUrxzd28 like this Hungarian movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04CZI0A0Vgw about the siege of Eger cannot be reliable academic historian source, because that is just cinema. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your Scythian turan comrades tried to make a putch against the Hungarian state
It is not harrasent, but a fact. Another article about Scythian terrorist coup. These lesser educated people (proletarians craftsmen) also beleive in your Scythian fantasies.
Hello. I have noticed that you often edit without using an edit summary. Please do your best to always fill in the summary field. This helps your fellow editors use their time more productively, rather than spending it unnecessarily scrutinizing and verifying your work. Even a short summary is better than no summary, and summaries are particularly important for large, complex, or potentially controversial edits. To help yourself remember, you may wish to check the "prompt me when entering a blank edit summary" box in your preferences. Thanks! Avishai11 (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks for the feedback, sometimes I am making new articles and complete rewrite or extend chapters, and if I do a lot of edit, it would be hard to make notes for every single changes, but I will do my best! OrionNimrod (talk) 16:18, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked some of my edit, I think because I did a lot of new articles, I usually did not make log in these edits while they were under working progress or minor edits. Some examples:
Hi @OrionNimrod, sorry for the late response. I think that if the edit is relatively minor, you can just use one work like, "spelling", "clean-up", etc. I think that if there are multiple edits within a couple hours, then maybe for the last edit of the day for that page, provide a longer description. I honestly don't know. Thank you! Sorry if that sounded confusing. Best, @Avishai11Avishai11 (talk) 21:46, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, we've been having a lot of discussions on the articles under Ottoman war history. We keep accusing each other of number vandalism. If you want to have a mutual exchange of information on this topic, we can exchange private messages. My problem is not to minimize the number of Ottoman armies, but to prevent number vandalism by Western sources. Actually, I think you would understand me if you correlate a little bit between the wars. As I said, we can solve this issue by discussing privately, not on Wikipedia. Nabukednezar03 (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A 12.század eleji "Keresztény magyarok cselekedetei" kimaradt. Juliánus barát is azt használta a Gesta helyett, mert megbízhatóbb és régebbi volt.--Hefty-priced (talk) 21:56, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Hungarians, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Mongol invasion of Hungary.
Hi Diannaa! Thanks for the feedback. I am carefully adapt the copyright contents, rewording myself. But in this case I found an open access genetic study [22] and I added the "free" tag: [23] Do you think it is ok? I see you added this "Creative Commons text attribution notice|cc=by4|from this source=yes" that was the missing data, right? If yes I will add this in the future for the similar sources. OrionNimrod (talk) 14:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Thank you for your feedback and for your contributions to the Romanian history page on Wikipedia. We appreciate your dedication to improving the accuracy and relevance of the content. Your insights help maintain the integrity and focus of the articles. Portasa Cristian (talk) 12:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had to contact you to tell you that I have nothing against the pictures you represent, but put the author and maybe the year of the picture when it was painted so that it can be checked on the Internet and there is no problem with entering pictures. Only you return, no one else. Thus, anyone can post unverified pictures of unknown authors. Don't be mad at me. I guess there are some rules of Wikipedia, so then everyone would put all kinds of pictures. Thanks78.2.236.99 (talk) 15:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That painting is from Hungarian national gallery, unknown author does not mean the image is unverified :) many ancient and medieval artworks author are unknown OrionNimrod (talk) 17:34, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Nimrod. You recently made this revert. I would be delighted if you can show me a professional article or book in Hungarian specifically about this bird which specifically uses this hungarian word Bese for the animal with pictures of the bird please. Much appreciated. 149.50.160.94 (talk) 23:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I've reverted most of your edits in other Wikipedias removing that map. Some other edits were reverted by other users. By pushing a clearly POV and not neutral map you've set a precedent. Now I am simply following the logic of this precedent. As long as the map is attributed, it is okay and we may not question it, correct? SuperΨDro10:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Super, it is not secret I am against the fake maps. That map is clearly a fake map which claim border of Kingdom of Hungary was at the Tisza river between 900-1400, how? And the map says that fantasy characters like Gelou/Menmarot/Glad were Romanian voivodes in 9-11th century! So Menmarot and Gelou in 1100 as Romanian country? Even Menmarot is clearly names as Bulgarian in Gesta, how can be he Romanian king? How possible to claim in 1100 Transylvania was not part of Hungary? Romanian Duchy of Menmarot in 1100? Do you think it is not a fake map?
What is the modern academic background of this map? This is a photoshopped map:
This map does not match at all with international history maps, but is same as the nationalcommunist fake map. It is obviously a fake map. I also did not say any attribution of that map, that "this is a nationalcommunist Romanian claim map" a "nationalist vision about Romania from Tisza-Dneister in 800-1400" and "mystic Romanian kings like (the Bulgarian) Menmarot who do not acknoweledged anybody outside Romania".
International maps (you can find many others): Do you see that Kingdom of Hungary was at the Tisza or that Transylvania was not part of it? Do you see any Menmarot land?
"More extreme in its fancy and tone is the assumption by Lieutenant-General Dr Ilie Ceausescu, brother of the former President and until late the historian with the highest political profile in Romania, that the voivodes Gelou, Glad and Menumorout were Romanians who "succeeded, behind the resistance organized by the communities" population on the border, mobilizing the entire army of the voivodship and meeting (896) the Magyar aggressor shortly after the latter had invaded the Romanian territory. Such abberations by champions of Anonymus serve not only to provide ammunition for the opponents of Gelou and the Vlachs, but also bring us back to the realm of the mythos."
Do you intend to publish academic source on Wikipedia or obvious fake maps? I bet those Wiki articles are not so frequently visited articles, but I would be curious what users from other Wikipedia (Croatian Wiki, Polish Wiki, Spanish Wiki...) would think about publish an obvious fake map. Lets see how looks the Spanish, Polish, Croatian... Europe maps from 800-1400.
You cannot compare that photoshopped map which (I can create in 5 minutes) to the Hungarian academic researches with 30 years of work. Regarding the Hungarian map, it is clearly attributed that is made by Hungarian researches and that is the Hungarian historical point, which cannot be cenzored just because others dont like the Hungarian view and researches about their country history, follow this logic we can remove all Daco-Roman theory because is not supported by Hungarian scholars. The Hungarian map is attributed that is Hungarian academic view about population, while the Romanian map is an obvious distortion of Hungarian history and international European history, because we cannot see that claimed lands at expense of Hungary, and borders on international maps. If you have modern academic Romanian maps, you can publish them. Do you think Romanian academy in 2024 claim that Hungary borders were at Tisza? OrionNimrod (talk) 19:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The map is clearly employing all possible interpretations that are favorable to showing a history of Romanian statehood, including the interpretation of Brodnici and Bolokhovians as undisputedly Romanians. Gelou is featured as a Vlach in the Gesta, while as far as I can see the ethnicity of Glad was not specified but his country is said in the Gesta to have been populated by Vlachs among others. I don't see how this case is any different from the village-by-village ethnic map of 1495. Here we can attribute and say this is a map according to Ovidiu Drimba or Romanian historiography. Both are nationalist maps which intend to push a point which has no consensus or universal acceptance. Both should be removed from Wikipedia. But if one is to say according to a certain logic and that logic can be applied on the other map, the result is that both maps will stay. We should be seeking truth and not to show what nationalist inventions each side has. The truth is that an ethnic map of the year 1495 with village-by-village precision is impossible to make in 2024. If it happens to show a view convenient to the Hungarian POV, and hides in white minority areas claiming they were "not permanent settlements" (a user already provided an example of a village having been founded before, and also why the use of tax registries can be problematic), it is just as bad-faithed of a map as the other one. SuperΨDro23:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Super, What is your explanation that Bulgarian Menmarot as Romanian country in 1100? Gesta called him Bulgarian, and Szekelys and Khazars mentioned in his land. What is your explanation that Gelou country as Romanian country in 1100? (That map says 9-11th c.) In Gesta, Gelou land was occupied by Hungarians around 900, how can be still Romanian country in 1100? And “Vlachs” in Gesta are really debated by scholar “as evidence”, so if that map use Gesta as main source, but that map even does not follow Gesta, because Gesta does not say Menmarot was Romanian and Gelou land occupied around 900 by Hungarians. That map distorts Gesta, because Gesta is about 99% Hungarians in the text and Gesta also mention the borders of Hungary which are total different on that Romanian map.
The Romanian map nowhere never attributed that is a romantic fantasy map to claim “Romania border was forever from Tisza-Dneister”, it never attributed those characters are from Gesta (but we can see that map distorts Gesta) but clearly claimed “Romanian countries 800-1400", it never attributed that made in the nationalcommunist time, it never attributed that borders of Hungary was not in the Tisza as we can see in all international maps, which means that border of Hungary universally accepted that it was not the Tisza.
If you worry about “consensus, universal acceptance” Do you want push a fake map where kingdom of Hungary is only half size, the borders of Hungary is at the Tisza river which clearly different is all international history maps?
The Romanian map is not a modern academic map but a national communist one, do we live in the 2024 or in the Ceaucescu times? I asked many times, please show modern academic Romanian maps.
The Hungarian map is not a nationalist one but researchers of 30 years, modern academic map, it does not show fake borders and fantasy states, just population research which clearly attributed. That is not Hungarian nationalism if Romanian nationalists claim “there were always majority Romanians from the time of caveman” and Hungarian scholars are working based on sources and not by Romanian nationalist speculations and preconceptions. That is not Hungarian narionalism if we have lack of sources of allegedly “always majority people”. 100% Hungarian historiography refuse Romanian nationalist Daco-Roman theory, I think you dont think seriously that 100% of Hungary would be nationalist just because they dont accept a nationalist theory from an other country… Communist Hungary in the past also refused DacoRoman theory, I never saw anybody who would accuse Hungarian communists with Hungarian nationalism. I can and I quoted already many non Hungarian scholars, Germans, British… who claim no sources about Romanian before 1200s in Hungary + many similar statements, so now every single foreign people also became Hungarian nationalist because of that statemens or who do not accept immediately Daco-Roman theory?
The whites areas are common thing in Hungarian maps, they will not populate people to marshes and mountainpeaks. Even in 2011 Hungary map I can see white areas. In the computer generated 1910 census map which used data also I can see the empty areas on the forested, mountain areas. This also testify the deep research of that map. But did you complain on those maps where big forest area where 100 people lived was colored carefully as Romanian and 100,000 populated Hungarian cities was just colored a very small patch?
Are you really telling me that in the end the map is actually favoring Romanians? The map is indeed Hungarian nationalist precisely because we have lack of sources of allegedly “always majority people”. You don't seem to equate the Daco-Roman countinuity and the immigration theories on the same level even though there is no proof for any of them. There has never been anything about an immigration of such a large group of people north of the Danube, we in fact have Byzantine chronicles attesting the immigration of Vlachs from north to south instead, we have a writer of 1150 showing the notion of this people having been there before the conquest, we have sources attesting many similar-souding peoples (Blakumen, Blaghjs... all of which Hungarians say they cannot have connection with Vlachs). I think you dont think seriously that 100% of Hungary would be nationalist just because they dont accept a nationalist theory from an other country no I think the nationalism comes from their own nationalist theory with the exact same aim as the Daco-Roman one: that we are here first, that the other side has no history, and that therefore this land belongs to us.
I can find many sources to back this map. Page 37, the map in a book by Neagu Djuvara. "The archaeological researches at Biharea confirm 'the existence in Crișana of Menumorut's principality of Bihor, basing on the ethnic-demographical reason of the settlements sail – Romanian and Romanian-Slav villages, fairs, and citadels in this area of Romania" (page 108, page 31). "in the chronicle Gesta Hungarorum by Anonymus the three Romanian and Slavic voivodates are mentioned: the voivodate of Menumorut, the voivodate of Glad and the voivodate of Gelu." (page 81), this interpretation is backed by the population structure Romanian authors claim the voivodates to have had: a Romanian-Slavic cultural life, which they claim is backed by archaeology.
Please seek dispute resolution measures to involve third users. Because I am not going to accept the 1495 ethnic map remaining and the other one being removed. The map can have taken 300 years to make for all I care, it is still based on either weak or inexistent evidence that has never been reproduced again by national academies. Of course, if consensus is found through these resolution methods I will back down. SuperΨDro09:47, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Super, the Hungarian modern map is about population not about states and borders, and it is clearly attributed that is the Hungarian research. At the moment I would like not talk about theories, just the map. The Djuvara map does not claim borders and timeline of duchies, however quite strange to mix together 1000 years period (I see Gepids, and Litovoi), (there are many Avar and Hun sites in Transylvania and before the Tisza area, however that map puts them only beyond the Tisza).
- Why the Romanian map has no proper attributions? (It would be perfect match to the nationalcommunist Romania section, that was the historical teaching at that time)
- Could you tell me any Menmarot duchy in 1100 as that Romanian national-communist map shows? Do you think it is correct to claim in 1000, 1100 Menmarot duchy was a Romanian country in the time of King Saint Stephen, King Saint Ladislaus of Hungary?
- Do you think showing a map where border of Hungary is the Tisza river, it is correct? It is not a false?
That it is about population rather than political borders is irrelevant as both can be subject to controversy, ethnic composition arguably much more so than political borders that are easier to verify. May I add that, when we were discussing the other map, I noted that the discussion was not about the theories, but now that the roles have practically reversed, it is you who feels like they have to note that...
The map is very strongly sourced in Commons, it seems to be based in Ovidiu Drimba's work, but also in other sources, including from authors like Nicolae Iorga [25]. If you wish the map can be attributed to Drimba everywhere. As I said the map seems to take out of all possible interpretations of controversial historical sources like the Gesta or the Russian Chronicle the ones that are positive to the Romanian nationalist POV. I think the map is ahistorical but you defended the ethnic map based on attribution to Hungarian historiography thus I see absolutely no reason for this one to be excluded when the same attribution can be applied. Ideally I'd have both maps removed because they are just showing nationalist POV from both sides. That the duration of supposedly undisputed Romanian states is extended is no different than hiding in white minority areas in an ethnic map.
By the way, I want to express, since this is with difference our biggest disagreement yet, that I wish this dispute do not worsen our interactions in the future, I still have a positive opinion regarding you and hope the opposite is the case. I act in good faith in all this and know you do too. That being said, I insist that this discussion is going to lead to nowhere because I do not intend to change my position without third opinions. Please start a procedure to decide if the map should be removed like I did with the ethnic map. SuperΨDro23:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Super, of course I have no negative feeling towards you, I appreciate you, because it is good to talk with smart people and know the arguments of others, and also as you see I am looking collaboration than bad edit wars or personal attacks. :)
As you say the political borders are not subject to controversy, that is why I really dont understand how possible to put a map which has obvious fake borders, as you can see it is not true that border of Hungary was at the Tisza in all international maps. In that map it clearly attributed that Menmarot duchy 800-1100 (9-11th) which is also cleary fake even he was defeated around 900 in the Gesta, and I dont think anybody claim any Menmarot duchy at the time of King Saint Stephen and Saint Ladislaus, King Ladislaus founded Oradea and he was buried there which is in the land of Menmarot, do you think the Hungarian king buried in the duchy of Menmarot as the Romanian map claim? The Romanian map also show the Hungarian chieftain Gyula duchy as "Romanian country" (Voievodatul Gelu Gyla) (Gelu=Gelou, Gyla=Gyula), how can be this a Romanian country? By the way I am not wondering because I saw many Romanian users in internet who claimed King Saint Stephen of Hungary was also a Romanian... did you see this claim?
The Hungarian map is not a nationalist one, it is cleary attributed that "based on the Hungarian researches", you can see 1784 map had more Romanian areas because they had sources to paint Romanians on many areas, and you can see more Romanians than Hungarians presented there, so that would be Hungarian nationalism to show more Romanians than Hungarians? Regarding the 1495 one which is not the dark medieval times, lack of sources of Romanians does not mean nationalism, but they worked after researches, which was 30 years according to the director of geography institute.
If you see the Hungarian map, also there are many white areas in the Hungarian populated regions, but mostly in the mountain and big forest areas everywhere not just in Transylvania. File:Kingdom of Hungary - Ethnic Map - 1495.jpg
Please see again this computer generated map which based on 1910 settlements data, you can see many sparsely populated regions still here which similar position like the white areas on the Hungarian map https://atlo.team/anyanyelviterkep/ So the authors dont populate the marshes with people, but just the settlement areas. OrionNimrod (talk) 22:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Super Dro! Western historians don't believe in the mere existence Vlach (Romanian) early and high medieval era settlements, because they consider Vlachs as one of the latest nomadic people in Europe.
This is an argument in favor of the notion that it is difficult to map an ethnic map of a medieval kingdom with such detail. SuperΨDro22:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've already expressed that I prefer to have this discussion with the participation of other users as well. If the issues would be the dates they could be edited. Regarding Gyula III it seems to be based on the logic that he became ruler over Gelou's Vlach and Slav subjects as per the Gesta. I am familiar with funny ridiculous Internet claims such as the Hungarians built the pyramids of Giza or the Latin language first appeared in Dacia but I haven't seen what you've mentioned. The 1784 map is based in a census which did not include ethnicity nor language and has the same problems as the 1495 one. It just serves to further argue the POV that Hungarians were replaced in their native lands by migrant peoples. The maps are both inappropriate but can also be defended based on the logic of attribution to national historiographies, which I disagree with. SuperΨDro22:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Super, as you can see I dont talk about flat earth quality things which I never heard, but I talk about medieval times (in private I will send you that Saint Stephen thing, I dont want make a propaganda here for that author).
Please let me share you some things. (I also show the sources)
You mentioned that "no evidence about Romanian mass migration", firstly nobody say "mass migration", but it was a centuries long slow process, devastation of Hungarian populations by centuries long wars, while Vlach population lived in safer areas, and intense local population growth of Romanian population. Immigration could change the population very fast, this is a modern example: As of early 2019, 30.2 percent or 572,834 residents of Vienna did not hold Austrian citizenship. 251,129 of them were citizens of EU or EFTA countries and 312,705 persons were third-country nationals. [26] And this happened just in the recent decades, not hundred of years ago! The population of nations changes very fast: [27]
For example Norther Dobruja had 21% Romanians in 1878 and now 77% Romanians: Northern Dobruja#Demographics And it does not mean Romanians were there the majority in the past.
For example Orade had 5,6% Romanians in 1920 now 77% Romanians: Oradea#Demographics And it does not mean Romanians were there the majority in the past. (And there are many other Transylvanian city examples)
Why it is hard to imagine a population change?
I show you some examples, I think those things are not shown in Romania:
1.
Georg von Reicherstorffer – Transylvaniae Chorographia Moldaviae, 1550:
According to Reicherstorffer the Romanians came from Moesia [Bulgaria] into Transylvania. [28]
“Morover, Moesians were once those, who are now Valachians, is more accepted today than anyone dares to deny”[29]
“Also Vlachs dwell in this land, but sparsely, without a fixed home.”[30]
2.
During Ottoman times, in case of trouble, for the Wallachian rulers and their households (many families), the asylum was regularly found in Hungary. When the trouble was gone, not all of them settled back to Wallachia, but many remained in Transylvania, and this thing happened many times during the Ottoman period.
3.
Approbatae Constitutiones Regni Transylvaniae & Partium Hungariae Eidem Annexarum: contained the decrees of the parliaments between 1541 and 1653 (This book published in 1696 in Kolozsvár)
The immigration of the Vlach people into Transylvania clearly can be seen also from contemporary laws made by the Transylvanian parliament between 1541 and 1653:
"Though the Vlach nation has been admitted to this country for the common good, yet it is not conscious of its low rank, and some noble brethren have been harrassed to avoid working on their feasts. It was therefore decreed that they should not command to the Hungarian Nation, and that no one should be disturbed thereafter for the above reason."[31]
4.
Vasile Lupu, Voivode of Moldavia (1634-1653), he wrote a letter to his Turkish overlord in 1653. In this letter, he says the Vlach population is 1/3 in Transylvania. This matches with the Hungarian estimations. I think the contemporary Romanian ruler himself cannot be "Hungarian propagandists" :) [32]
5.
Evliya Çelebi, Ottoman diplomat, his trip to Hungary was between 1660-1666. The Romanian serfs move to Transylvania because of the tyrannical rulers of Romanian lands. The Romanians say there is justice, legal order, and low taxes in Transylvania:
"From Kolozsvár (Cluj-Napoca) to Fehérvár (Alba Iulia) in Transylvania, you have to go east. All the way up to the Saxon-Hungarian Vilayet the Vlach rayah are black Vlachs. In Wallachia the beys were very tyrannical over them, therefore these rayahs saying: "Let justice be justice", all moved to Transylvania and pay one gold tribute to the king and they have no other duties."[33]
6.
Voivode Ghica, Prince of Wallachia write to Mihály Apafi, Prince of Transylvania in 1663 that full Vlach settlements moved to Transylvania:
"From our realm, a couple of villages have escaped into the realm of your greatness, some to Fogaras county, some to Brassó, some to Szeben, and they did not flee because of their rascality but only for the heaviness of the tax."
7.
This is the old Romanian document: The Letopisetul Cantacuzinesc chronicle dating to the early 1700s describes the emigration of Romanians to the north (in English and in Romanian):
“But first let's talk about the Romanians who broke away from the Romans (= Byzantines) and migrated north. So they moved to the water of the Danube, they crossed Szörényvár; some to Hungary for the water of the Olt, the water of the Mures, the water of the Tisza, reaching as far as Maramureş. And those who crossed at Severin Castle reached the foothills of the Olt River. Some went down along the Danube and filled the whole place with them and came to the Necopol border.”
On the Romanian side, it is often argued that the text describes the colonization of Dacia, as according to the text, the ethnic group in question came from the Roman Empire. But this is not true. The text refers to them as “Romanian”, which is the modern self-name of the Romanians today. The document firmly states that Hungary already existed at the time of the events described and that this group settled on Hungarian land. The full title of the work is also revealing: The History of Muntenia since the Orthodox Christians Settled (1290-1690) - (Istoria Țării Românești de când au descălecat pravoslavnicii creștini (1290–1690)). As the title suggests, the story begins in the late 13th century. At that time, the Byzantine Empire still existed, which was also called officially the Roman Empire, and its inhabitants called themselves Romans. In the text, therefore “Romans” means the medieval Byzantium and not the ancient Roman Empire. Letopisetul Cantacuzinesc says the Romanians broke away from the Romans and migrated to the north. We know well the Roman Empire made a lot of bloody wars against the Dacians, definitely the ancient Romans did not migrate, but the ancient Romans conquered Dacia.
Its citizens referred to the polity as the "Roman Empire" and to themselves as "Romans" Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Rumelia name also came from the "Roman Empire" Rumelia
The Letopisețul țărâi Moldovei chronicle was written in 1640 by Grigore Ureche, a Moldavian chronicler: [34]
“The Romanians, as many as live in Hungary and Transylvania and Máramaros, come from the same place as the Moldovans and they all spread out from “Râm” [Byzantine Empire].” “Rumânii, câți să află lăcuitori la Țara Ungurească și la Ardeal și la Maramoroșu, de la un loc suntu cu moldovénii și toți de la Râm să trag.”
8.
Austrian official estimate, dating from 1712–13, according to which 34 percent of Transylvania's inhabitants were Romanians, 47 percent Hungarians, and 19 percent Saxons. [35]
9.
Transylvanian law from 1744, 6th article: This 1744 law names Vlachs as “newcommer people”
'"..the constitutional organization of this principality shall be free from subversion and shall not be among the Vlachs or any other newcomer people..."[36]
10.
One of the distinguished members of the 1744 Transylvanian national assembly, Baron István Dániel, mentioned in his memorandum from that year that he fertility of Romanians is astonishing:
"...the unprecedented and excessive spread and proliferation of this newcomer and foreign people; they have inundated almost all of Transylvania to such an extent that it seems they are at least equal to, if not surpassing, two of its three established nations. The fertility of this people is astonishing, as we see many villages that were partly inhabited by Vlachs, partly by Hungarians or Saxons fifty years ago, are now entirely occupied by the prolific offspring of foreign Vlachs, with the former inhabitants having died out. Moreover, many villages can be seen whose only indications of having once been in the possession of Hungarians or Saxons are their churches and the surrounding walls and towers; all their current inhabitants are foreign Vlachs.”
11.
British traveller Richard Bright wrote in 1814 about the fast growing of Vlach population in Hungary, claiming a Romanian man is already became a grandfather before he became 30 years old. (Book: Travels from Vienna through Lower Hungary, page 560)
I thank you for providing sources left for food for thought to consider the other theory. I don't really agree that Râm neccessarily means Byzantine Empire. But this is still not about the two theories. Even if strong evidence for the immigrationist theory appeared that wouldn't mean I would accept the map. I still find it is extremely doubtful. For the umpteenth time: it is a village-by-village map of 1495! And not of a small area. Not with the strongest methodology. It has not received any discussion (acceptance or rejection) at all outside Hungarian sources apparently, not even by Romanian/Slovak/etc. ones. And this methodology doesn't seem to have been repeated by other national academies. Why is it absolutely necessary that we keep this map making an extraordinary claim with such extreme detail? If everything was so clear, why would there even be a dispute in historiography? Why would articles like Origin of the Romanians exist? Can we really not find a more general and vague map? SuperΨDro23:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I sent those things not in the relation of maps, just information, as I am also curious the arguments of other theories.
Ok, let's focus just the map issue. Can you demonstrate me that usually in Wikipedia history related articles at which percentage maps have been discussed scholarly, or even created or approved by any academy? Don't you think, on the contary that your claim is extraordinary, would you prefer "general and vague" (thus much more inaccurate, superficial) maps instead of a precisely researched one (even part of an award winning series)?
The origin of the Romanians are a far more broader topic than a map should be singled out which not necessarily contradicting any of the theories, in fact there would be no guarantee a more general and vague map would depict e.g. more Romanians, maybe even less, however the quality of the map should not be based solely on this factor...
You should see the contradiction of claiming a too detailed map (which is in fact an advantage) and claiming not having the strongest methodology...could you tell me what would be the strongest methodology, or even could you demonstrate a medieval map with even nearby accuracy? (because the Academy likely applied the strongest possible methodology based on the available sources - hence 30 years (!) of work -, of course no maps may be 100% perfect back in time compared today ones when more statistical data and satellite images are immediately available, but again, with this claim and the same argumentation you may remove frankly all demographic maps from all articles earlier the 20th century)"
I emphasize again, the map had a proper attribution "that is a Hungarian research" (so nobody say that this is a Romanian view) and the map is in related demographic sections regarding Hungary. I don't think Slovaks, Croats, Germans, Serbs would have any problem with that map as they have no romantic nationalistic (sourcless) preconceptions about "they were always majority everywhere from forever". Regarding the Germans, I think it is really well know by settlement sources which settlements had German populations. In this German map the German population is similar as in the Hungarian map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_Germans_in_Hungary_and_parts_of_adjacent_Austrian_territories.JPG
And still I can say 1500 is not the blurry dark ages, the library of King Matthias was the second biggest after Vatican but Hungary had many developed cities, settlements already at that time and sources (though lot of things destroyed during Ottoman period), you can just see the medieval nice Transylvanian cities. Even Romanian documents were printed in Transylvania (I can see here a lot of Hungarian texts along with the Romanian one) 1570:
There are very few maps in Wikipedia making such an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim such as aiming to be an accurate village-by-village ethnic map for a big part of Europe in 1495. Those should have heavy non-partisan backing. I've already argued how the map is ignored outside Hungarian sources. I do not believe only Romanian users would have an issue with this map. I cannot suggest any methodology because I do not believe ethnic maps of this detail for such a past period of time are possible, at least now, and I am also not any expert. An ethnic map making more vague claims would surely be more appropriate in my opinion because it would not be aiming to be accurate on the ethnic composition of thousands of settlements centuries ago. I've already linked that ethnic map of Armenians in the 16th century, which I find much more encyclopedic as it is more vague (notice it doesn't have white areas in the lands where Armenians were presumed not to have lived). in fact there would be no guarantee a more general and vague map would depict e.g. more Romanians, maybe even less this is not the issue I have with the map, it is the pretension of accuracy for such detail and period in time. Regarding the Academy's methodology, it was summarized in under one page. I do not find it particularly exhaustive. The map excludes non-permanent settlements when many Romanians had not become fully sedentary yet. Another user had raised issues as well with the use of people's names in tax payer lists. SuperΨDro22:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
55 edits in one year just for the Vlachs' page, didn't even look on the Romania page numbers of edits yet
OrionNimrod, I'm very surprised you're still let on wikipedia, you're walking a very fine line, the only reason you're not cursing me, spitting on me or threatening to kill me is because you're afraid to get banned on wikipedia. No sane Hungarian does 50+ edits a year NOT on wikipedia articles about Hungary, but on wikipedia articles about Romanians/Vlachs and Romania. If you talked to me on quora I bet you would act the same as the Hungarian that wrote to me, a girl, he will spit on my face, hang me (threatened to kill me) and "break my spineless body" and that I'm a Gypsy. I think the only reason you wanted to remove the image of Stephen the Great, the Romanian medieval ruler that ruled the longest (47 years) just because he was blonde and you don't want foreigners to know that Romanians can be blondes as well. That's why people like you either say Romanians are Roma/ Gypsies (in sanskrit it's डोम, Doma) or Romanians are Albanians. Of course you're omitting that Daco-Thracians intermarried with the Illyrians (the ancestors of the Albanians) since ancient times. There are Roman emperor that are Daco-Thracians or Thraco-Illyrians. The Illyrians made the best Roman soldiers and generals, hence why there are so many Roman emperor of Illyrian origin: Illyrian emperors:
Constantine the Great, Roman Emperor and member of Thetrarchy, from 306 to 337. He was born in Naissus, Dacia Mediterranea and according to one of his dynastic member Julian the Apostate, his family was of Thracian origin from the Moesi tribe. Thus the Constantinian dynasty was one of the Thraco-Roman dynasties.
Leo I, Eastern Roman emperor from 457 to 474, also called "Thrax" which is "Thrachian". His dynasty called Leonid were commonly referred as "The Thracian dynasty".
Justin I, Byzantine Emperor from 518 to 527, was of Thraco-Roman. He was father of Justinian the Great who was referred by John Malalas as being a Thracian.
Vitalian, an East Roman general who rebelled in 513 against Emperor Anastasius I (r. 491–518). Vitalian may have been of local Thracian stock, born in Scythia Minor or in Moesia; his father bore a Latin name, Patriciolus, while two of his sons had Thracian names and one a Gothic name.
Justin II, nephew of Justinian and Eastern Roman Emperor from 565 to 578. He was a member of the Justinianian dynasty, which are one of the Thraco-Roman dynasties.
Romanians have Balkan DNA: that means Daco-Thracian, Illyrian and Slavic DNA Slavic migrations to the Balkans. The genetics/ancestry testing website Ancestry.com classifies both Romania and Hungary as genetically Balkanic so Hungarians intermarried with us "dirty" Balkanic people for a long time.
In your mind, Albanians are inferior so of course you would want Romanians to be Albanians so it would confirm your bias that Romanians are inferior, therefore Transylvania should just go back to Hungary. By the way, it was only because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that Hungary had access to resources in Eastern Europe (not just Transylvania but Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia etc without the influence of the incestous very powerful and influential Austrian Hasburgs, Hungary would have stayed a small kingdom in Europe, especially after Hungary lost to the Ottoman Empire: Ottoman Hungary (1541–1699).
While many Romanians have been fooled to have a low-self esteem by propaganda, I'm someone who knows history and you simply can't trample me and make be feel bad or inferior that I'm Romanian. I wonder if you ever admired a Romanian historical figure, writer, scientist, inventor List of Romanian inventors and discoverers etc or you just hate all Romanians, including me? That makes me very sad if you indeed hate every single Romanian, even Sebastian Stan that plays Winter Soldier in the Marvel/Avengers movies... Ninhursag3 (talk) 11:24, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Genetically Hungarians are Central Europeans, their closest genetic relatives are Slovenians Austrians, Czechs and Slavonians. Hungarians did not mix with Balkanite Orthodox populations. That's why Hungarians are much more Western in genetic distance PCA maps, and have much lighter pigmentation: eye hair and skin color and more Western facial phenotypes.--Mandliners (talk) 22:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, Orion, is Mandliners your sock-puppet account? Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry. Have you never seen Romanians? They can have blue eyes, brown eyes, hazel eyes, amber eyes, green eyes. I myself have green eyes and blonde hair and most of my family is from Southern Romania, not Northern Romania. Anyway, such a discussion is too subjective to entertain it for long. Ancestry.com#AncestryDNA is real thing. They had a 2021 or 2022 update where they put Hungary in the Balkans region genetics-wise. I just checked and they added the Central Europe bracket and put Hungary in it. It now has way more brackets than a few years ago.
Yes, you did. Numerous times, while you might have wanted to remove just the Michael the Brave stuff, all the things I took time to research and add like the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture images and information, depictions of Vlad III and Stephen the Great during their lifetime (not hundreds of years after their death like in the case of Vlad III's most frequently shown image on the internet) and making cleaning some extra dates (Hungary doesn't have the dates it joined the United Nations or the European Union in the established state dates either so why should Romania?). I hope you will talk respectfully towards me from now on because you seem to be quick to disrespect Romanians. I don't think it makes a difference to you that I'm a girl. Ninhursag3 (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ninhursag3 Then please provide me the link of my edit, that I removed any Stephen image. I replaced only the classic Vlad image, which was in the article for a long time. OrionNimrod (talk) 20:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you see carefully my edits, you can see I restored only the classic Vlad image and the establishment history which was there a long time ago, until you changed it.
If you see carefully my edits, you can see I restored only the classic Vlad image and the establishment history which was there a long time ago, until you changed it.
Please check my edits carefully: [39][40] I can see Stephen image in the page and I did not remove.
The first time you removed everything, I think the second time as well, you kept the Stephen image after the first couple of edits. You can at least admit you undid my edit many times. Thank you for being respectful how you talk to me, I appreciate that. Ninhursag3 (talk) 15:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I wrote in the edit log, I restored only classic Vlad image and the establishment history which was before you. That is. Everybody can see what I did. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:03, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, so why didn't you restore Stephen the Great's image? Do you hate that he was a blonde Vlach? Or the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture images, or the Dacian bracelets image etc etc. Why are you so against those images? Ninhursag3 (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You yourself said "I restored only classic Vlad image", you didn't restore Stephen the Great's image, Cucuteni-Trypillia culture images or or the Dacian bracelets image. I will leave it at that, thank you for your time. Very nice talking to you. Have a good day. Ninhursag3 (talk) 18:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that part of the site is in Hungarian, clear Hungarian propaganda, the same picture below was used by the guy on quora that threatened to kill me, are you the same guy? With all due rspect, I call bs. The second picture was edited, made much darker. Compare the original version: http://humanphenotypes.net/Carpathid.html with the edited, darker picture: https://anthropology159.blogspot.com/2021/03/romanians.html
Oh my, what does it say? " Gorids are also important in Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Albanians, Northern Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, West Ukrainians".
I think you said Romanians and Hungarians don't look at all like each other.
Aren't you ashamed of yourself to lie so blatantly? That's badly made propaganda.
Because I pointed that out, the guy on quora threatened to spit on my face, hang me and kill me. Extremist Hungarians like you have a fascination with hanging Romanians. Maybe because of Hungarians hanging puppets of Tudor Vladimirescu, Avram Iancu etc or maybe because of the real life story behind the book and movie Forest of the Hanged (novel).
Also, about the "darker skin", are the videos during the summer or winter? In winter the Roma Gypsies are just as dark as in the summer (I know you try to make propaganda that the Roma (Sanskrit: डोम Doma) and the Romanians are the same people) and in winter the Romanians are much paler. This summer, we had 40-41 degrees celsius in Romania, it gets very hot, people get tanned. Stop the embarrassing anti-Romanian propaganda. Ninhursag3 (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"the type is commonly found among Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosniaks, and their relatives. Also typical for the Eastern Alps (esp. Tyrol), Carpathians, South Germany, Austria, Albania, West Ukraine. Extends to France, Western Greece, Bulgarian mountains, Italy, and other regions of Europe." It doesn't specifically mention Romanians unlike here: http://humanphenotypes.net/Gorid.html "Gorids are also important in Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Albanians, Northern Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, West Ukrainians". Ninhursag3 (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
USer:Ninhursag3 ALL Google products (like that Google blog) collect metadata with the exactly same way. If you are so affraid....in this case don't use Google websearcher, neither use Youtube or Gmail services anymore. Can I report you due to personal attacks and because you scolded me ? "psychiatric meds" --Mandliners (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was serious when I asked that, so even if you "report me", they can't do anything because you sent me that link in the first place. I didn't make any ad hominen attack, I was asking for safety reasons. Afraid? I'm not afraid, I survived a car accident, I could have died and I didn't. It's still smart to take safety measures though. Asking if you're taking psychiatric meds is for safety, not to insult. Also, you didn't mention how you showed edited darker images because you know I'm right and the original images are lighter. Ninhursag3 (talk) 22:26, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Balkan people like Romanians have high ratio of non-European admixtures, that makes their average anthropological look very different. Hungarians and Romanians are relatively genetically distant. See this modern Autosomal PCA map about the genetic distances of European populations: https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png
Chill, breathe in, breathe out. Relax. It seems you're stuck in a never-ending loop of obsession and hatred of Romanians. Tell me, do you have a favorite Romanian historical figure, writer, scientist, inventor List of Romanian inventors and discoverers etc or you just hate all Romanians? I'm sad for you for being so obsessed with your hatred for Romanians, I hope you will find a cure for that. Do you have any other hobby than hating on Romanians?
Also, you STILL didn't mention how you showed edited darker images instead of the lighter original images in order to aid your propaganda.
Mandliners, "hatred", where did I say any bigoted or xenophobic stuff? I only asked if you take psychiatric meds because you gave me a link that gets people's IP address and I talked about my experience of a quora Hungarian user threatening to kill me. If you weren't on wikipedia, risking to get banned, you would have threatened to kill me, crub stomp my head in like in American History X. You only talk about Romanians' skin color and that seems very unhinged. The ancient Greeks built Western civilization and Greece is neighbouring the Balkans. The Greeks were tanned skinned and had curly hair but they were seen as the peak/zenith of ancient civilization and their neighbours to the North, the blued eyed, blonde/red haired neighbours were seen as the "barbarians". Also, the Greeks mixed with the Thracians (the Dacians being a sub-group of the Thracians) since around 8th century BC. The Greeks and Illyrians (ancestors of the Albanians) as well as the Romans ancient times with the Daco-Thracians as well as later on the medieval Vlachs/Romanians, so slowly the Romanians got a more Southern European look. Which is totally fine. Why so much hatred? Do you hate the Italians or Greeks or the Spanish because they have a more tanned look to them? Southern Europeans are just as European as Northern Europeans. Also, genetics studies show that Hungarians are 5% East Asian and Romanians are less, only 2% East Asian. But you seem to omit that, acting all superior, like you're the superior European and Romanians are the inferior Europeans. Us Europeans should be united but propagandists like you show edited, darkened images to stoke the flames of real hatred and afterwards you play victim to get me banned even if I was polite in my writing and for you to continue to spread propaganda and hatred. I wish you only the best and I hope you will be more respectful towards me and Romanians in general in the future. Ninhursag3 (talk) 16:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do not use Youtube Gmail and Google maps or Google Web searcher, because all of them based on the same IP collecting databases as the Google Blog link. Same firm and same technology.
I have nothing to do with who threatened you on the Quora. It is offtopic.
This Hungarian new article lowers 5-7.4% to 4%: "Several earlier studies have proven that 4 per cent of the DNA of today’s Hungarians carry Asian ancestry. Interestingly, it is a relatively high rate compared to neighbouring nations" https://dailynewshungary.com/genetic-study-proves-hungarians-descendants-huns/
I thought Hungarians are the "pure, superior" Europeans, so what is this? So the Hungarians aren't 100% European but but are treating their fellow Europeans like the Romanians like they aren't European. Also, keep in mind most of Scandinavia and Central Europe sterilized the Roma (Sanskrit: डोम Doma) until the late 70's:
So yeah, it's not like the Balkanic people mixed with the Roma (Sanskrit: डोम Doma) people much but the reason there are more Roma in the Balkans than the rest of Europe in present day is because they didn't sterilize the Roma (Sanskrit: डोम Doma). Ninhursag3 (talk) 23:50, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, forced sterilization under any circumstance is wrong and I don't condone it. I just pointed out the situation of Scandinavian and Central European countries' horrible history of sterilization of the Roma (Sanskrit: डोम Doma) and how in contrast, the Balkan countries didn't sterilize the Roma (Sanskrit: डोम Doma). Ninhursag3 (talk) 00:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, there are no Altaic population, it is outdated fantasy since the 1960s, only turanists believe in it. As you ca see, Turanism is pseudo scientific, such as the Magyarságkutató intézet, a research institution established by the Fidesz Party and Viktor Orbán.
He does not like the Hungarian Academy of Sciences (MTA) because its independence and financial support are enshrined in the constitution, making it difficult for him to influence the scientific research conducted there. As a result, he has established the Magyarságkutató Institute, which he can sway and which is an adversary of the MTA. Orbán claims Cuman minority status and wants to get Hungary admitted to the Turkic Council. These pseudo-scientific efforts serve this political goal. In the future, please do not link to any content from politically-driven "research institutes," as they lack credibility. Mandliners (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OrionNimrod wrote to you "Mandliners, can you talk with Ninhursang not on my talk page? As those things total unrealted with my edit." He incorrectly wrote "unrealted" instead of "unrelated". Yet you still continue to talk on his page, that's disrespectful. Either that or you're really his sock-puppet account Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry. Come talk to me on my page. Have a good day. Ninhursag3 (talk) 14:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also @Mandliners, the genetic studies that show that Hungarians are between 5.1-7.4% Asian were done by your fellow Hungarians: András Bíró, Tibor Fehér, Gusztáv Bárány etc, how are they "politically-driven "research institutes" "? You make it sound like "politically-driven" Romanians did those genetic studies but it was your own fellow Hungarians. The only one "politically-driven" that shows edited images to make Romanians look darker is you. You're not even a competent propagandist, you're very disappointing.
The genetic studies were done by Hungarians and the website is a world renowned Dutch science website, how is it "politically-driven" by Romanians in any way? You should be ashamed of your falsehoods and blatant propaganda. Ninhursag3 (talk) 15:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
András Bíró Tibor Fehér Gusztáv Bárány are part of the turanist pseudo-scientific Magyarságkutató, establisehed by Orbán to counter the independent Hungarian Academy of Sciences. Nobody takes them seriously in Hungarian scientific life. Next time come up with reliable trustable source. Magyarságkutató is part of the NER (“System of National Cooperation”) system: https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781498543668/Brave-New-Hungary-Mapping-the-
First Learn Autosomal genetic distances: Learn:Autosomal genetic distances:
Genetic history of Europe - Wikipedia
Second examine the autosomal admixture map of Romanians in Europe:
Mandliners , you seem to cherry pick information. You blame genetic studies showing 5-7% Asian DNA of Hungarian people done by their fellow Hungarians saying they're propagandistic annoying Turanists, hey maybe they're super big fans of Japanese anime and want to be Asians? Hahaha. Now you cherry pick or blatantly lie about Romanians, saying they have the same DNA as Turkish people, Turks having around 20% Asian DNA and now you say Romanians have even more Asian DNA than the Turks themselves, double the 20%, at 40%? That's already fantasy land. Romanians don't mean only Romanians from one region, like Dobrogea, it should mean from all regions: Muntenia, Moldova, Maramureș, Bucovina, Crișana etc. There is no way Turks have more European DNA than Romanians, studies show that Turks have a greater percentage of non-European DNA than Romanians. Studies show that Romanians have 2% (2,24% to be exact) Asian DNA in all regions of the country: "Genetic affinities among the historical provinces of Romania and Central Europe as revealed by an mtDNA analysis": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5341396/ nowhere near 40%. I bet it's a cherry picked study in the region of Dobrogea/Dobruja that has a muslim Tatar minority. Also, West Anatolian DNA doesn't mean non-European DNA. The Hamangia culture in Southern Romania was a Neolithicarchaeological culture (circa 5250 BC — circa 4,500 BC) which had origins in West Anatolia. The Hamangia culture influenced Europe before Europe had its first civilization. Also West Anatolia was for thousands of years under Greek influence (the Greek civilization being the first European civilization), from Ancient Greece to the Byzantine Empire. Ancient West Anatolian DNA from thousands of years ago doesn't equal medieval East Asian Turkic DNA that is in 20-25% of present day Turks and 2% of present day Romanians.
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