User talk:Mr KEBAB/Archive 8
 | This is an archive of past discussions with User:Mr KEBAB, for the period 10 November 2017 − 29 November 2017. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Infobox element, General American
Hi there, I just figured I'd let you know there's an ongoing conversation at Template talk:Infobox element in which you may be interested in participating. Also, do you mind my asking if you're going to complete the notation "Lindsey (2015)" that you added at General American any time soon? I know you said you were going to in the summary, but just in case. Have a good one, Nardog (talk) 02:14, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Nardog: The discussion is a bit strange. Don't we already have policies on that? Either way, maybe I'll vote.
- Sure. The full citation is one of the chapters of this book, but the preview doesn't show page numbers (I hate when Google Books does this, it's really stupid). Alternatively, we could simply use one of the posts from Lindsey's blog (the one on Novak Djokovic). Maybe I'll add both, I'm not sure. Mr KEBAB (talk) 03:52, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Nardog: Ok, full citation added. Now the Google Books preview does show page numbers, so I don't know what's going on anymore. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:06, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the citation. I brought up the talk not only because of what you've mentioned but also because I found some of the comments made there since I added my two cents to be... peculiar, if I may. I haven't been able to muster the energy to add a comment about them, but I thought you may be. But if you don't want to be enraged, don't even look.
Now the Google Books preview does show page numbers
– I assume you were looking at the e-book version and later at the print version. That's probably why. Nardog (talk) 07:29, 14 November 2017 (UTC)- @Nardog: I've added my vote.
- Yeah, I forgot that books can have multiple (or at least two) types of previews on GB. Which is actually good, because sometimes (or often, I'm not sure) that allows you to read a larger portion of a book for free. But you can also uses proxies for that (shh... I didn't say that). Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:32, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Bat/bad in AAVE
A question occurs to me. If you say the difference between bat and bad in GenAm is (tell me if I'm getting this right) [bæt̚] versus [bæːd̚], then do you have any idea what the distinction is between the same words in AAVE (where a word like "bad" can be heard by a GenAm speakers as "bat" due to what I've always assumed is a glottal stop)? Wolfdog (talk) 22:17, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: No idea, sorry. I know almost nothing about AAVE, though I do notice certain phonetic peculiarities in rap (e.g. a peculiar quality of NURSE, which tends to have a somewhat delayed rhotacization and begin with a plain schwa, but I could be wrong). Have you checked our article? Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:23, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Oh, and [bæt̚] vs. [bæːd̚] is spot on. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- OK, cool. To me, the kind of phonetic transcription I used above seems appropriate for GenAm and not overly cluttered with minutiae. As for AAVE, yes it has a very distinct NURSE rhotic vowel with a low vowel onset, reminiscent to me of New York accent: a feature of the NURSE set commonly found in variably rhotic American accents that were once fully non-rhotic. Wolfdog (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Oh, so it's [nɐɹs]? Yeah, that looks appropriate to me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- I've usually seen it transcribed as [nɜɹs], but, yes, saying your transcription aloud sounds like an accurate possibility too. I've also seen [nɤɹs]. Wolfdog (talk) 22:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: [ɜ] is an extremely problematic symbol in English phonetics. Formerly, the IPA assigned it to any mid central vowel (close-mid, mid, open-mid), now it's specifically open-mid. This is why the revised phonemic orthography for Australian English uses /ɜː/ instead of /ɘː/ or at least /ɨː/. At the time it was designed (before 1996, when IPA made the definition of [ɜː] as narrow as it is today), there was no reason not to continue to use the established British symbol /ɜː/.
- I've usually seen it transcribed as [nɜɹs], but, yes, saying your transcription aloud sounds like an accurate possibility too. I've also seen [nɤɹs]. Wolfdog (talk) 22:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Oh, so it's [nɐɹs]? Yeah, that looks appropriate to me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- OK, cool. To me, the kind of phonetic transcription I used above seems appropriate for GenAm and not overly cluttered with minutiae. As for AAVE, yes it has a very distinct NURSE rhotic vowel with a low vowel onset, reminiscent to me of New York accent: a feature of the NURSE set commonly found in variably rhotic American accents that were once fully non-rhotic. Wolfdog (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Wells uses [ɜː] for stressed mid [əː]. Also, formerly, [ə] was any obscure vowel that was lower than [ɨ] and higher than [a ~ ɑ], now it's specifically mid central.
- I don't know about [nɤɹs], it doesn't seem to be the variant I'm used to hearing from AAVE speakers. [nɐɹs] seems to be the best transcription to me, but maybe [nɜɹs] (with an open-mid vowel) is better. I'm not sure. Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:15, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- That's an interesting history of the open-mid vowel and helps explain some of its weird usage today. As for [ɤ], I didn't choose it. It's transcribed that way in A Handbook of Varieties of English (now that I look though, actually, it says [nɤs] which sounds even weirder to my ears!). Erik Thomas's "Phonological and Phonetic Characteristics of African American Vernacular English" seems to use [ɚ] in passing and otherwise just says "In stressed, syllabic positions, as in work and stir, the norm for most African Americans today is an r-ful one (Labov et al. 1968; Wolfram 1969: 111–2; Myhill 1988; Hinton and Pollock 2000; Thomas 2001). Even in this context, r-less variants still occur occasionally, especially in the Deep South (i.e. from South Carolina to Louisiana) and up the Mississippi valley (Williamson 1968)". Wells' Accents of English gives (at least) [ɜː], though I don't have access to the full book. Wolfdog (talk) 00:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Yeah. I also think that [ɜ] is the most correct symbol for the open(ish) final COMMA (and LETTER in non-rhotic accents) in General American and some other accents. I think it's less marked than [ɐ], at least in some accents. They're not the same sounds, at least in truly narrow transcription.
- That's an interesting history of the open-mid vowel and helps explain some of its weird usage today. As for [ɤ], I didn't choose it. It's transcribed that way in A Handbook of Varieties of English (now that I look though, actually, it says [nɤs] which sounds even weirder to my ears!). Erik Thomas's "Phonological and Phonetic Characteristics of African American Vernacular English" seems to use [ɚ] in passing and otherwise just says "In stressed, syllabic positions, as in work and stir, the norm for most African Americans today is an r-ful one (Labov et al. 1968; Wolfram 1969: 111–2; Myhill 1988; Hinton and Pollock 2000; Thomas 2001). Even in this context, r-less variants still occur occasionally, especially in the Deep South (i.e. from South Carolina to Louisiana) and up the Mississippi valley (Williamson 1968)". Wells' Accents of English gives (at least) [ɜː], though I don't have access to the full book. Wolfdog (talk) 00:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know about [nɤɹs], it doesn't seem to be the variant I'm used to hearing from AAVE speakers. [nɐɹs] seems to be the best transcription to me, but maybe [nɜɹs] (with an open-mid vowel) is better. I'm not sure. Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:15, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I thought so. [nɤs] doesn't have to have a vowel that is as far back and as high as the cardinal [ɤ], it can simply be a somewhat retracted [ə]. [ɚ] strikes me as an incorrect narrow transcription (but I'm not sure if the author's aim was to narrowly transcribe AAVE), as the sound is definitely not the same as the General American one.
- I do have access to the whole chapter on Black English, and here's what Wells says:
Apart from this monophthonging, particularly in PRICE words, the vowel realizations which receive most comment are the [ɜː] and [ɜɪ] realizations in NURSE (which are also of course traditional white New York City pronunciations), the lack of rounding in /ʊ/ (FOOT), and the rather open quality of /ɛ/ (DRESS).
This is from page 557. He doesn't seem to be saying that these are the only possible realizations, and they don't strike me as usual in any way. Then again, his book was published 35 years ago.
- I do have access to the whole chapter on Black English, and here's what Wells says:
- As far as [nɤs] is concerned, I've heard this realization from a Cultivated Indian speaker, who was consistently saying [ˈpɤːsn̩] for person. The rest of his accent could be labelled as almost perfect conservative RP. Mr KEBAB (talk) 04:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: I almost forgot: Wells does answer your original question. This is from page 558:
Single final /b, d, ɡ/, as in rob, red, big, are sometimes realized as a glottal plosive [ʔ] or as unreleased voiceless plosives [p̚, t̚, k̚] (perhaps with simultaneous [ʔ]). This does not usually lead to loss of contrast with /p, t, k/, however, because of allophonic effects on preceding vowels, thus for example bet /bɛt/, [bɛt] vs. bed /bɛd/, [bɛəʔt̚] (Wolfram 1969:102). Final voiced plosives, and sometimes other final consonants, can also be straightforwardly elided (given zero realization). (...) A morpheme-final consonant can also be lost before a suffix, thus [kɪːz] kids.
I find this glottaling to be potentially very confusing (I can't say I've heard it myself, but I could be wrong). The pronunciation of bed given by Wells is perfectly GA apart from the glottaling, which could occasionaly occur in GA but in bet, not bed! Mr KEBAB (talk) 04:56, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: I almost forgot: Wells does answer your original question. This is from page 558:
- To be honest, some of Wells's writing there baffles me. I'm not sure I've ever heard a modern-day AAVE speaker say either [ɜː] or [ɜɪ] for NURSE (though I did notice the latter in an old recording I heard of an ex-slave, and it came across as very strange and conspicuous). Even more mystifying is his describing "the rather open quality of /ɛ/ (DRESS)". If anything, AAVE is known for DRESS being rather close compared to GenAm and even tensed. Interesting what you found regarding my question; I wonder then if there is an AAVE distinction between the words got and god, following these same allophonic effects. (I guess we might assume so?) Yeah, this kind of AAVE glottaling is very common and I daily interact with AAVE speakers who show it. Now hold on about [bɛəʔt̚] for bed (but you're saying minus the [ʔ], thus: [bɛət̚]); you're saying that diphthong is typical in a GA pronunciation? I'd think, if anything, I'd say something more like [bɛːd̚] (although I have to say, in this case, simple [bɛd̚] sounds perfectly fine too). Wolfdog (talk) 21:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Yes, I said that AoE is 35 years old. There has to be some outdated information in there.
- I'm curious about the distinction you're making between a 'raised' and a 'tensed' vowel. What do you mean exactly?
- To me, the bit I quoted makes that pretty obvious.
- No no, I'm saying that using the glottal stop in that environment can be very confusing to speakers of other accents, e.g. Estuary English. Perhaps I should clean my ears then, because I've never noticed it.
- In GA, the centering diphthong is a mere possibility before voiced consonants, as it is in conservative RP, Cockney or New Zealand English. It's an alternative to a lax monophthong of 'full' (pre-lenis) length. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:48, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: I'm pinging you again in case you weren't notified. I'm not rushing you to reply though, I'm just aware that notification templates used on WP are quite obviously less than perfect. Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:28, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Mr KEBAB: This was definitely me reading it and then forgetting to reply, so my apologies. I'm still surprised that a description of AAVE from even 35 years ago would describe an open DRESS vowel; this is very alien to the dialect as far as I've ever known. (At least the curl-coil merger is established historically -- though very rare today.)
- I'm going with the terminology according to Tenseness (the lead of which I myself helped to write at some point). I mean that AAVE DRESS (particularly in stressed monosyllables) is a diphthong or lengthened vowel involving raising (or a raised on-glide): something like [dʒɹeːəs] (the same as in U.S. Southern accents). Erik Thomas's "Phonological and Phonetic Characteristics of African American Vernacular English" explores whether "The nuclei of the DRESS and KIT vowels become tensed and raised" (as in the Southern Vowel Shift). He concludes that these processes indeed happen, in what he identifies as "the African American Shift".
- Again, the centering diphthong option also sounds a bit alien to me in GenAm, but maybe my understanding of the schwa sound is a little off. Wolfdog (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: (You don't have to ping me on my talk page).
- No problem, as I said I didn't mean to rush you, but I'm glad that you've replied.
- Oh, that's what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.
- Yeah, [ɛə] etc. can be anything from [ɛˑə̯] to [ɛˑɛ̯̽], with the latter being almost monophthongal. Also, according to a certain blogpost by Wells (I don't know which one), GA /ɛ/ is at least somewhat centralized, (and so are /ɪ, ʊ, ʌ/), so maybe the gliding towards the schwa is so weak that you just can't notice it (though try with [ʊə] in an emphatic good!, as that involves both centralization and unrounding, so the diphthongal quality is easier to notice.) Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:40, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- Ha, yeah, old habit! Wolfdog (talk) 09:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, [ɛə] etc. can be anything from [ɛˑə̯] to [ɛˑɛ̯̽], with the latter being almost monophthongal. Also, according to a certain blogpost by Wells (I don't know which one), GA /ɛ/ is at least somewhat centralized, (and so are /ɪ, ʊ, ʌ/), so maybe the gliding towards the schwa is so weak that you just can't notice it (though try with [ʊə] in an emphatic good!, as that involves both centralization and unrounding, so the diphthongal quality is easier to notice.) Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:40, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Pronunciation requests
Thanks for your help! Milos Raonic Is the transcription wrong according to the references? link 1; link 2
Mitchell Langerak Is the respelling MICH-əl LANG-ə-rak?
Milos Degenek What's the pronunciation of Milos and Degenek? And is he of Serbian or Croatian descent or both according to Milos Degenek#Early life? "His family was part of the Serbian population of Croatia". link 1; link 2; link 3
Matthew Jurman Is it /ˈjɜːrmən/ YUR-mən or /ˈjɛərmən/ YAIR-mən? link 1; link 2
Mile Jedinak The pronunciation of Mile Jedinak? link
Robbie Kruse What's the German pronunciation of Kruse?
Tomi Juric Is it /ˈjʊrɪtʃ/ YUUR-ich? link
Nikita Rukavytsya link 1; link 2; link 3
Aziz Behich link 1; link 2 LoveVanPersie (talk) 11:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Hi. The transcriptions/respellings are:
- - Correct
- - Correct
- - /ˈvʊkəvɪtʃ/
- - /ˈmɪlɒs/ according to the first source, /ˈdɛɡənɛk/ according to the second source and /ˈmiːlɒs ˈdɛɡənɛk/ according to the third source.
- - /ˈɡɜːrzbæk/
- - /ˈjɜːrmən/, obviously. In English, /ɛər/ is never spelled ur.
- - /ˈmɪlə ˈjɛdɪnæk/
- - /ˈmæsɪmoʊ luːˈɒŋɡoʊ/
- - /ˈrɒɡɪtʃ/
- - [ˈkʁuːzə]
- - It could be /ˈjʊərɪtʃ/. I'm not sure.
- - /nɪˈkiːtə ˈrʊkəvɪtsə/
- - /ˈæzɪz ˈbeɪ.ɪtʃ/
- From now on, I'd like you to first try to transcribe words you have problems with, then I'll check your transcriptions. It's a faster way to learn. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:50, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Truly grateful to you! Should the CH in MICH-əl LANG-ə-rak be TCH? And 'Juric' in both another two clips (link 1; link 2) seems /ˈjʊrɪtʃ/? Besides, is it /ləˈlɑːnə/ or /ləˈlænə/ in the clip? I just can't distinguish /ɑː/ and /a/ (which is transcripted as /æ/)... And what about the German pronunciation of Gersbach? Again, what's the pronunciation of Milos Degenek in this clip? I can't distinguish /ɒ/ and /ɔː/, /ɪ/ and /iː/, either... But I guess it's Error: {{IPA}}: unrecognized language tag: ˈ? Thanks. LoveVanPersie (talk) 09:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: No problem, but it's not as simple as saying that you 'can't distinguish X from Y'. If that is the case, then you need to learn those distinctions (and if you don't want to, I'm not sure why you keep asking me so many pronunciation questions. I'm happy to answer them, but only as long as they're truly relevant to you.) If I could do it, anyone can. For a start, visit these two channels: Rachel's English (AmE) and English with Lucy (BrE). Here is Daniel Jones pronouncing 18 cardinal vowels, which are not really vowels of any particular language but useful reference points. See also English orthography#Spelling patterns.
- Truly grateful to you! Should the CH in MICH-əl LANG-ə-rak be TCH? And 'Juric' in both another two clips (link 1; link 2) seems /ˈjʊrɪtʃ/? Besides, is it /ləˈlɑːnə/ or /ləˈlænə/ in the clip? I just can't distinguish /ɑː/ and /a/ (which is transcripted as /æ/)... And what about the German pronunciation of Gersbach? Again, what's the pronunciation of Milos Degenek in this clip? I can't distinguish /ɒ/ and /ɔː/, /ɪ/ and /iː/, either... But I guess it's Error: {{IPA}}: unrecognized language tag: ˈ? Thanks. LoveVanPersie (talk) 09:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- - You tell me. See WP:RESPELL.
- - It's clearly /ˈjʊrɪtʃ/ in the first clip. In the second clip, the pronunciation is probably the same.
- - /ləˈlɑːnə/. The vowel is too back and too long to be /æ/, especially in southern England.
- - I don't know. I tried googling it but nothing comes up. It could be [ˈɡɛʁsbax], but don't quote me on that. Check with a native speaker first.
- - It's /ˈmɪlɒʃ ˈdɛɡənɛk/. The vowel is too low, too centralized and too short to belong to the /iː/ phoneme. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:19, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- I can distinguish them only when they are pronounced more slowly... And what about Tomi because it's also a Croatian name? Is it /tɒmi/? LoveVanPersie (talk) 10:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Ok, then use Audacity to slow down the audio. You can't really expect people to enunciate everything. Identifying vowels in normal speech is an important skill, so try working on that.
- I can distinguish them only when they are pronounced more slowly... And what about Tomi because it's also a Croatian name? Is it /tɒmi/? LoveVanPersie (talk) 10:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- It's /ˈtɒmi/, yes.
- And what about Mitchell Langerak's first name? You didn't answer my question. Per WP:RESPELL, is it tch or ch? Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:44, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry I thought "You tell me" meant you are agreeing me 'cause "You're telling me" in my Oxford Dictionary means agreeing... It should be TCH because it's in a syllable-final position? LoveVanPersie (talk) 10:49, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: But I said you tell me (present simple), not you're telling me (present continuous).
- Yes. Stressed /ɪ/ is always followed by at least one consonant, so it must be tch. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- A consonant between a stressed checked vowel and another vowel is usually attributed to the same syllable as the first vowel in the respelling system, if a check vowel is unstressed, it'll be the contrary one, right?
- And why it is nih-KEET-ə rather than nih-KEE-tə? LoveVanPersie (talk) 13:11, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Sometimes.
- Because the /t/ can be flapped, and therefore the most logical analysis is that it's syllable-final. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:35, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Should the nickname of a given name be directly after the given name or before the surname? For example, Edward "Eddie" Keddar Nketiah or Edward Keddar "Eddie" Nketiah? In addition, is Mile a nickname of Michael? LoveVanPersie (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: I don't know. See WP:MOS.
- Should the nickname of a given name be directly after the given name or before the surname? For example, Edward "Eddie" Keddar Nketiah or Edward Keddar "Eddie" Nketiah? In addition, is Mile a nickname of Michael? LoveVanPersie (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Because the /t/ can be flapped, and therefore the most logical analysis is that it's syllable-final. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:35, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Not in the case of Mile Jedinak. In his case, it's a Croatian first name used as a nickname. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- The u is transcripted as [ɵ] in Georginio Wijnaldum, but there isn't [ɵ] in Help:IPA/Dutch. Is [ɵ] or [ʏ] better for u in Dutch?
- Is it /təˈfɑːraɪ ˈmɔːr/ tə-FAR-y MOR? clip
- Is it /dɪˈsɪlvə/ dih-SIL-və? clip
- Is it /ˈdʒɛŋkɪnsən/ JENG-kin-sən? clip
- Is it /ˈɑːrsən ˈvɛŋɡər/ AR-sən VENG-ɡər? clip LoveVanPersie (talk) 08:48, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Per Help:IPA/Dutch it should be [ʏ].
- No, it's /təˈfɑːri ˈmʊər/. Don't transcribe the surname, it's a common one with a regular pronunciation. It's /ˈmʊər/ rather than /ˈmɔːr/ because this word (as many others) is subject to the pour-poor merger which we don't transcribe on Wikipedia. In the video, though, the person says /ˈmɔːr/.
- No, it's /də ˈsɪlvə/. Don't transcribe it as it's perfectly regular. English /ɪ/ is spelled a only in a few words (e.g. orange) and never in the word-final position. The guy on the video said [dɘ ˈsɪlvə], with a raised schwa because it appears between two alveolar consonants. You can sometimes (or often) hear this pronunciation in southern England, but it's important to understand that this vowel is too central and perhaps slightly too low to be regarded as an unstressed /ɪ/. RP/Estuary/MLE don't have the weak vowel merger.
- Yes, but don't put it into articles. It's a normal surname with a straightforward pronunciation.
- Yes, but ask on Talk:Arsène Wenger if it's appropriate to transcribe his name into English IPA, as French IPA is already in the article. Again, the pronunciation is fairly straightforward. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Per Mertesacker Is the transcription correct? LoveVanPersie (talk) 14:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: You tell me. Listen to the pronunciation recorded by gamiani94: [1]. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yep I just listened the pronunciations in Forvo before I doubted it. I think it sounds like [eːɐ̯]? LoveVanPersie (talk) 15:20, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Yes, but is that the only thing you find questionable? What about the surname? Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:28, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Mr KEBAB: Yup I meant it's [meːɐ̯]. LoveVanPersie (talk) 15:38, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Ok, you need to be more specific next time. So you mean that the mer syllable is pronounced [meːɐ̯]? That's not correct - both speakers pronounce it with lax [ɛ]. It's the first name that is variable - gamiani94 pronounces it with [eːɐ̯], whereas Thonatas uses [ɛɐ̯]. See Standard German phonology#Phonetic. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- And I have another question: Is it /əˈzɪz/ rather than /ˈæzɪz/ in this clip? LoveVanPersie (talk) 15:50, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: You tell me. Is that vowel as open and as front that it could be regarded as [æ]? If that is the case, then the stress is initial. If not, the stress is final (/ə/ can't be stressed in Australian English). Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's /əˈzɪz/. LoveVanPersie (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Correct. The vowel is mid central, not open front. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:02, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- So should it be listed in the article? And on the former question, is it [meːɐ̯]? LoveVanPersie (talk) 16:04, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: 1. That's your call 2. I've already answered that - look above. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Is Milos Degenek of Serbian or Croatian descent or both according to Milos Degenek#Early life? "His family was part of the Serbian population of Croatia". LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: I'm sorry, but have you seriously still not checked the source yourself? Make some effort first. Use Google Translate if necessary. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Mr KEBAB: I know what Serbs of Croatia means. But I don't know if it should be Croatian descent or Serbian or neither. I just want to add a category. But pages of people of Serbs of Croatia don't exist Serbian descent or Croatian descent. So I thought they should be neither Croatian or Serbian descent and ask you to see if I was right... LoveVanPersie (talk) 18:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: I'm talking about something completely different.
- @Mr KEBAB: I know what Serbs of Croatia means. But I don't know if it should be Croatian descent or Serbian or neither. I just want to add a category. But pages of people of Serbs of Croatia don't exist Serbian descent or Croatian descent. So I thought they should be neither Croatian or Serbian descent and ask you to see if I was right... LoveVanPersie (talk) 18:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: I'm sorry, but have you seriously still not checked the source yourself? Make some effort first. Use Google Translate if necessary. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Is Milos Degenek of Serbian or Croatian descent or both according to Milos Degenek#Early life? "His family was part of the Serbian population of Croatia". LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- I assumed that you knew what sources are, since you use various clips to source IPA transcriptions. But apparently it's not as obvious, so that's fair enough.
- I mean the superscript [5] after "Sydney, Australia" at the very end of the early life section. You should click on that and read the article. Use Google Translate if necessary, the article is in German. That's what checking sources means. Generally, you should always do it before questioning information in a given article. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Did you check the reference after all? Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Is \ˈhäkˈkä\ wrong in Merriam-Webster.com? Two stress? LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Forget my previous message (which I've deleted). The second transcription is surely /ˈhækə/, but the first one looks like /ˈhɑːk.kɑː/ or /ˌhɑːkˈkɑː/ to me. I don't know which one it is. Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:53, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Is it /ˈvanɪə/ or /ˈvɑːnɪə/? It sounds like the latter? clip 1; clip 2 LoveVanPersie (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: Neither. It's /ˈvɑːni/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Mr KEBAB: Is the respelling VAH-nee or VAHN-ee? LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: I'd use the latter, but both seem valid to me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:41, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Mr KEBAB: Is the respelling VAH-nee or VAHN-ee? LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Dele Alli
When the commentators pronounce his name on TV is sounds French-Arabic in a way, De'Lee, A'Lee, So are you sure you have it right, because from what I hear on TV from the commentators they don't say Del'Lee or Al'Lee, Govvy (talk) 11:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: I don't know what you mean. Try transcribing that into IPA.
- When LoveVanPersie asks me to transcribe names, I never check if the pronunciation in a given video is the most common one. All I know that some person somewhere pronounces that name like I transcribed it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: Hold on a second. The source is Alli himself, and my transcription is correct. So I really don't know what you mean. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- It's just the 'Pronunciation respelling key' I am not sure, but it didn't look right to me, that's why I questioned it, I don't mean to be rude but maybe we can ask someone else for a second opinion who is good with these things to have a look also? Govvy (talk) 12:35, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: I don't find you questioning me rude, just as you shouldn't find me being sure of my analysis rude (I'm not saying that you do). I'm just convinced of what I can hear in the clips, that's all. Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: Maybe I know what you mean? The two l both serve as syllable codas here, see Help:Pronunciation_respelling_key#cite_note-checked-1. But it doesn't mean pronouncing it Del'Lee Al'Lee. LoveVanPersie (talk) 12:56, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @LoveVanPersie: That's probably not what he meant - see Talk:Dele_Alli#The_pronunciation. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:08, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- It's just the 'Pronunciation respelling key' I am not sure, but it didn't look right to me, that's why I questioned it, I don't mean to be rude but maybe we can ask someone else for a second opinion who is good with these things to have a look also? Govvy (talk) 12:35, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Speaking of IPA, I think it would be helpful on this Spurs player. Govvy (talk) 13:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: Provide a recording and we'll figure it out. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:41, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: Nevermind, found it on Forvo. The IPA is [ʒɔʁʒ kevin kudu]. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- I was having a look through on google, couldn't find any decent vids, Govvy (talk) 14:08, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: Ok, but there's a recording on Forvo. I've transcribed it above and put it into the article. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:12, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- I was having a look through on google, couldn't find any decent vids, Govvy (talk) 14:08, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Unstressed /oʊ/ as /ə/
Hi, from my experience from some American and Canadian speakers, I noticed that unstressed /oʊ/ is /ə/, especially when open-final (I don't have this reduction). Do you have any direct answer whether this is common among most of these speakers and what exact environment/words it gets reduced? The open-final was just my hypothesis. — they call me AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 05:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Awesomemeeos: Are you sure that the sound you're hearing is [ə] and not [o̜̽] or [ɤ̽]? If it's one of the latter, it's simply a monophthongized /oʊ/. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but both options seem possible to me.
- A true /oʊ/ -> /ə/ change occurs in Cockney, in which words with a final -ow (don't know about other spellings, maybe orthography is irrelevant in this case) are pronounced [ɐ] (phonemically /ə/): [təˈmɒɹɐ, ˈjelɐ]. It's optional and confined only to the broadest speech, as in other accents. I have no idea whether it occurs in North America. If it does, I'd expect to hear it in southern accents. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:56, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- Funny that, those two words I heard being pronounced with a schwa. Wolfdog may know. — they call me AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 06:01, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Awesomemeeos: Can you provide a recording of that? Mr KEBAB (talk) 06:02, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Awesomemeeos: Thanks. I don't hear any final schwas there. Grande1978 and griffeblanche pronounce final [o̜̽] (a centralized mid back vowel with weak rounding), whereas SeanMauch's final vowel sounds like [oʊ] to me, perhaps with a slightly reduced second element ([o̽o̯]). They all count as realizations of /oʊ/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:00, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Awesomemeeos: With that being said, [o̜̽] is a schwa-like vowel, just not in the range of acceptable realizations of English /ə/ in word-final positions. Mr KEBAB (talk) 08:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Awesomemeeos: I concur with Mr KEBAB. I don't hear any schwa sounds at all in the audio samples you provided. That said, some Americans certainly do use a schwa in open final position, but it is a fairly marked feature, rather than one used by a typical American speaker. I've heard it in many non-standard accents of the U.S., ranging from the local accents of New York City to Texas. In the U.S., it seems most strongly to be a trait today of Southern American English, where I actually a couple years ago casually documented this exact feature from a native speaker friend of mine. I found that she uses the schwa indeed with words having the <ow> spelling (tomorrow, pillow, window, etc.) as well as in local placenames from her home state (Texas) that end in "o" (like Amarillo, Marlboro, etc.) and in common Spanish loanwords ending in "o" (armadillo, burrito, etc.). In all other cases, she does NOT use the schwa (in hero, zero, Fargo, etc.). A couple of exceptions or intermediate-sounding words existed too (namely these three: Bernardo, Francisco, and sorrow). Wolfdog (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: What do you mean by intermediate-sounding? Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- My friend was uncertain or hesitant about these words, and seemed to pronounce them with a quality between the full [oʊ] and the schwa. Wolfdog (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: But those realizations would still count as /oʊ/, no? Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I have no idea. Even the schwa allophone (or certain instances of it) might phonemically "count as /oʊ/". Wolfdog (talk) 02:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Ok.
- I'm sorry, but I have no idea. Even the schwa allophone (or certain instances of it) might phonemically "count as /oʊ/". Wolfdog (talk) 02:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: But those realizations would still count as /oʊ/, no? Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
- My friend was uncertain or hesitant about these words, and seemed to pronounce them with a quality between the full [oʊ] and the schwa. Wolfdog (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: What do you mean by intermediate-sounding? Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Awesomemeeos: I concur with Mr KEBAB. I don't hear any schwa sounds at all in the audio samples you provided. That said, some Americans certainly do use a schwa in open final position, but it is a fairly marked feature, rather than one used by a typical American speaker. I've heard it in many non-standard accents of the U.S., ranging from the local accents of New York City to Texas. In the U.S., it seems most strongly to be a trait today of Southern American English, where I actually a couple years ago casually documented this exact feature from a native speaker friend of mine. I found that she uses the schwa indeed with words having the <ow> spelling (tomorrow, pillow, window, etc.) as well as in local placenames from her home state (Texas) that end in "o" (like Amarillo, Marlboro, etc.) and in common Spanish loanwords ending in "o" (armadillo, burrito, etc.). In all other cases, she does NOT use the schwa (in hero, zero, Fargo, etc.). A couple of exceptions or intermediate-sounding words existed too (namely these three: Bernardo, Francisco, and sorrow). Wolfdog (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- That's heavily dialect-dependent though. In GA, they're always distinct. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, definitely. I just don't happen to know where these "uncertain words" fall for this particular Southern dialect. Wolfdog (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Ok. Maybe someone's done some research on that, so you can look for relevant papers. I can't really comment on what I can't hear. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:16, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
@Awesomemeeos and Wolfdog: Hey! What about words like thorough, borough etc.? In RP, these are pronounced with final /ə/, never /əʊ/ (at least according to the LPD and CEPD). I think these are examples of words in which the GOAT -> COMMA change has become standard. Indeed, the -ough spelling for a final schwa is extremely unusual. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- These words certainly use [oʊ] (rather than the schwa) in any American accents I've heard, but they're also not particularly common words. Wolfdog (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Ok. Last question: would you pronounce Middlesbrough with /oʊ/ or /ə/? Because every Briton I've heard ends it with /ə/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
- Great question, but I can't authentically answer it. There's not a single word natural to my vocabulary that ends with "-brough", so I have no pronunciation I would default to. I also already know a significant bit about UK town pronunciations, and this name looks especially British to me, so I'm biased with assuming it would end in a schwa. If a U.S. town was called this (and one could be for all I know), I'd ask someone how to pronounce it before making any such assumptions. Wolfdog (talk) 02:15, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Ok, I get it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
- Great question, but I can't authentically answer it. There's not a single word natural to my vocabulary that ends with "-brough", so I have no pronunciation I would default to. I also already know a significant bit about UK town pronunciations, and this name looks especially British to me, so I'm biased with assuming it would end in a schwa. If a U.S. town was called this (and one could be for all I know), I'd ask someone how to pronounce it before making any such assumptions. Wolfdog (talk) 02:15, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Wolfdog: Ok. Last question: would you pronounce Middlesbrough with /oʊ/ or /ə/? Because every Briton I've heard ends it with /ə/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello! I can't figure out whether the primary stress for Grozav is on the first syllable or the second. Here you have a link where people pronounce his name: [2] Thanks in advance!8Dodo8 (talk · contribs) 10:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
- @8Dodo8: The stress is final. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you! :) 8Dodo8 (talk · contribs) 10:50, 29 November 2017 (UTC)