User talk:JamieBrown2011/Archive 2
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| Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Managing a conflict of interest
Hello, JamieBrown2011. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page International Churches of Christ, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:
- avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
- propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the {{edit COI}} template);
- disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI);
- avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming);
- do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.
In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.
Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:58, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cordless Larry, thanks for posting this here. To be clear, I am a member of the church, but I am not paid or asked to do any editing on this page, my only concern is accurate information being reflected.
For example you just posted on the ICOC page in the LEAD section that the church is subject to federal lawsuits and quoted a Rolling Stone Magazine article. In this very same article it is stated: “In July, the plaintiffs withdrew the federal suits. Their attorney says they plan to temporarily shelve federal RICO claims related to the alleged “pyramid scheme” and to refile all of them.” Please remove the inaccurate and falsely recorded information on the page. To this date NONE of the cases have been re-filed!!! Looking forward to your co-operation in this matter.JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- I've reworded this to reflect the fact that the federal lawsuits have been withdrawn but the LA ones remain. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cordless Larry My plan at some point today is to WP:ANI & propose a permablock on all affiliate IPs via WP:WHOIS (5 known of so far) for the temp blocked user: Qewr4231. This will not only assist in the academic dialog on this passively disputed page but it will frankly quench the fire in social media forums where he is ginning up support to inappropriately edit this encyclopedia. Although I am not a member of this church, his WP:COI & WP:SOAPBOX caught my attention after I received a notification over a photo a bot wanted to remove. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 18:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the update, Coachbricewilliams28. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- 331dot While I was gathering evidence to propose a WP:SPI on Qewr4231 , I noticed you placed a 72hr-temp ban on his 5 IPs already @ 07:55, 4 September 2023. Since this is activity as been happening since 2009 [[1]] then receiving 3 blocks in 2015 [and another in 2019] for the same activity, I think this has approached the time to consider a full ban. This user has been promoting users in an alternate social media platform to come and perform various disruptive edits for comic value. Afterward, they screenshot and share their edits with the community. An example of this is when Muzikman7182 who formally used this username: Clipadilla1975 at one point even edited my personal sandbox to add in his "cult" edits. This user, inspired by the subject recently did this BLANKING EDIT [[2]], then screenshot it for the alt-forum hence my ability to connect the users. It is my belief that if the instigator of these non-academic posts is thwarted, it'll minimize the drama. What is your advice on the matter? Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Usually they find a way to do what they want to do, but bringing this to WP:ANI is probably needed. 331dot (talk) 08:07, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- @ All the users from FB Qewr4231 is bringing to this talk page. ---> My issue with him is not his posting, but his WP:SOAPBOXING , WP:ConflictOfInterest (without balanced content) , WP:SOCKPUPPETING (creating multiple accounts to create a bigger voice for his cause) & outright dodging of protocols here after being banned. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to vent about his feelings. Appropriate articles regarding the suits are welcome, his venting is not. If you would like to make additions, protocols are enforced by 3rd party admins (not just icoc members) Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cordless Larry I am indifferent to the page edits so I'll leave that to you and Jaime. Regarding Q, his other accounts and forum posts ginning up support to make non-academic edits is WP:ANI your suggestion as well? Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the place to report editor behaviour problems, Coachbricewilliams28. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:15, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cordless Larry I am indifferent to the page edits so I'll leave that to you and Jaime. Regarding Q, his other accounts and forum posts ginning up support to make non-academic edits is WP:ANI your suggestion as well? Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- 331dot While I was gathering evidence to propose a WP:SPI on Qewr4231 , I noticed you placed a 72hr-temp ban on his 5 IPs already @ 07:55, 4 September 2023. Since this is activity as been happening since 2009 [[1]] then receiving 3 blocks in 2015 [and another in 2019] for the same activity, I think this has approached the time to consider a full ban. This user has been promoting users in an alternate social media platform to come and perform various disruptive edits for comic value. Afterward, they screenshot and share their edits with the community. An example of this is when Muzikman7182 who formally used this username: Clipadilla1975 at one point even edited my personal sandbox to add in his "cult" edits. This user, inspired by the subject recently did this BLANKING EDIT [[2]], then screenshot it for the alt-forum hence my ability to connect the users. It is my belief that if the instigator of these non-academic posts is thwarted, it'll minimize the drama. What is your advice on the matter? Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the update, Coachbricewilliams28. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Cordless Larry My plan at some point today is to WP:ANI & propose a permablock on all affiliate IPs via WP:WHOIS (5 known of so far) for the temp blocked user: Qewr4231. This will not only assist in the academic dialog on this passively disputed page but it will frankly quench the fire in social media forums where he is ginning up support to inappropriately edit this encyclopedia. Although I am not a member of this church, his WP:COI & WP:SOAPBOX caught my attention after I received a notification over a photo a bot wanted to remove. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 18:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Cordless Larry for making those changes. However it is still not accurate. All the lawsuits were withdrawn, they have threatened to re-file on a state level but to date there are no such lawsuits. Please remove the factually incorrect information and the accusations made on the basis of those withdrawn lawsuits? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- This should really be discussed on the article's talk page rather than here, but just to say that the Rolling Stone article supports the current version of the text. To quote: "According to two lawsuits filed July 13 in L.A. County Court, the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) is not a church, but a 'cult', a high-control group where leaders allegedly take advantage of the members... The allegations in the L.A. lawsuits, which refer to alleged incidents in the 1990s and 2000s, first appeared among a set of six federal lawsuits filed around the start of 2023 in California's Central District. In July, the plaintiffs withdrew the federal suits". Cordless Larry (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Cordless Larry I know the wording of the article is a bit confusing regarding the law suits. ALL of the six lawsuits were filed as federal suits and ALL the lawsuits have been dismissed. If you go over to www.pacermonitor.com and search for the court dockets they are available for anyone to read. I repeat ALL the cases have been dismissed by the judge. @Cordless Larry, go and see for yourself and do the right thing. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 19:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- The source very clearly differentiates between the two recent LA County Court cases and six earlier federal cases. If you believe this is wrong and have reliable sources to demonstrate that, please make that case on the article's talk page. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Cordless Larry As stated above, the Reliable Source being referred to is found at www.pacermonitor.com (which is a site that keeps dockets of court cases in the US). A simple search reveals that no such LA County Court Cases have actually been logged. Please prove me wrong... The Rolling Stone magazine article seems to suggest they have already been filed, but unless you can show evidence of their actual filing, this is false and misleading. I am aware that this discussion should be held at the Churches Talk Page, but since you began this discussion on my personal page, let's at least conclude what was started. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Court dockets are primary sources, whereas on Wikipedia the preference is for use of secondary sources. If you want to discuss this further, please take it to the article talk page. I didn't start a discussion about the sources here, but rather posted a notice about your conflict of interest. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I haven’t placed any misleading information on the page to be removed. I am providing primary sources that appear to contradict the magazine article, that at this point appear to be incorrect. Please provide the source where you get the information that ANY of these cases have been re-filed. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:02, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Cordless Larry As stated above, the Reliable Source being referred to is found at www.pacermonitor.com (which is a site that keeps dockets of court cases in the US). A simple search reveals that no such LA County Court Cases have actually been logged. Please prove me wrong... The Rolling Stone magazine article seems to suggest they have already been filed, but unless you can show evidence of their actual filing, this is false and misleading. I am aware that this discussion should be held at the Churches Talk Page, but since you began this discussion on my personal page, let's at least conclude what was started. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- The source very clearly differentiates between the two recent LA County Court cases and six earlier federal cases. If you believe this is wrong and have reliable sources to demonstrate that, please make that case on the article's talk page. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Cordless Larry I know the wording of the article is a bit confusing regarding the law suits. ALL of the six lawsuits were filed as federal suits and ALL the lawsuits have been dismissed. If you go over to www.pacermonitor.com and search for the court dockets they are available for anyone to read. I repeat ALL the cases have been dismissed by the judge. @Cordless Larry, go and see for yourself and do the right thing. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 19:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- This should really be discussed on the article's talk page rather than here, but just to say that the Rolling Stone article supports the current version of the text. To quote: "According to two lawsuits filed July 13 in L.A. County Court, the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) is not a church, but a 'cult', a high-control group where leaders allegedly take advantage of the members... The allegations in the L.A. lawsuits, which refer to alleged incidents in the 1990s and 2000s, first appeared among a set of six federal lawsuits filed around the start of 2023 in California's Central District. In July, the plaintiffs withdrew the federal suits". Cordless Larry (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Cordless Larry for making those changes. However it is still not accurate. All the lawsuits were withdrawn, they have threatened to re-file on a state level but to date there are no such lawsuits. Please remove the factually incorrect information and the accusations made on the basis of those withdrawn lawsuits? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- JamieBrown2011 So everyone is aware, the above postings are STILL a non-registered account yet again from perma-blocked user Qewr4231 These copy & pasted sections from Facebook aren't encyclopedia-worth datasets. One day when there is a CONCLUSION to the filings, yes. For now, he is just here to press his agenda since he can't post on the actual article. I would dump his nonsense since YOUR talkpage is YOUR space. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 03:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- @JaimeBrown2011: The WP:BE was verified. See previous comments. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
- OK. Thanks JamieBrown2011 (talk) 16:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
- @JaimeBrown2011: The WP:BE was verified. See previous comments. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
- JamieBrown2011 So everyone is aware, the above postings are STILL a non-registered account yet again from perma-blocked user Qewr4231 These copy & pasted sections from Facebook aren't encyclopedia-worth datasets. One day when there is a CONCLUSION to the filings, yes. For now, he is just here to press his agenda since he can't post on the actual article. I would dump his nonsense since YOUR talkpage is YOUR space. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 03:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
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October 2023
Hello, I'm Cordless Larry. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to International Churches of Christ seemed less than neutral and has been removed. If you think this was a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- Hi,User:Cordless Larry I added a picture and a description of HOPEww, a benevolent organization started by the ICOC. Please explain how that violates a NPV? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 05:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't revert your addition of the photo. Drmies had previously removed the material about that initiative as overly promotional and based too much on primary and non-independent sources. A list of "achievements" like you tried to re-add isn't encyclopedic content; instead, what we need is (ideally prose) text based summarising what independent, secondary sources say about the topic. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- So User:Cordless Larry if I use the information supplied by HOPEww themselves and Charity Navigator describing HOPEww you would have no further objection? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Charity Navigator is a primary source, so it would be better to cite a secondary source reporting on what Charity Navigator has said about the subject. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- User:Cordless Larry This is what Wikipedia says about "WP:PRIMARY"
- Charity Navigator is a primary source, so it would be better to cite a secondary source reporting on what Charity Navigator has said about the subject. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- So User:Cordless Larry if I use the information supplied by HOPEww themselves and Charity Navigator describing HOPEww you would have no further objection? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't revert your addition of the photo. Drmies had previously removed the material about that initiative as overly promotional and based too much on primary and non-independent sources. A list of "achievements" like you tried to re-add isn't encyclopedic content; instead, what we need is (ideally prose) text based summarising what independent, secondary sources say about the topic. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent sources. An account of a traffic incident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the event; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source for the outcome of that experiment. For Wikipedia's purposes, breaking news stories are also considered to be primary sources. Historical documents such as diaries are as well. Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a musician may cite discographies and track listings published by the record label, and an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:Biographies of living persons § Avoid misuse of primary sources, which is policy. - So according to this Charity Navigator can be used, but not extensively in describing HOPEww. JamieBrown2011 (talk)
- You cannot write a promotional section like this one using that kind of sourcing. It's real simple--the material is used to shine a good light on the subject, there is no doubt about that. Drmies (talk) 12:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Why have you re-added this material based on primary sources, despite being told you can't do this by me and Drmies here? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- Firstly it is a 3rd party source, charity navigator is an independent evaluator of charities. 2ndly, WP:ABOUTSELF is clear that you can use this kind of material on the Wikipage. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 10:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. The thread is International Churches of Christ. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. The thread is International Churches of Christ. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
April 2024
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but you recently removed maintenance templates from Situational leadership theory. When removing maintenance templates, please be sure to either resolve the problem that the template refers to, or give a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Please see Help:Maintenance template removal for further information on when maintenance templates should or should not be removed. If this was a mistake, don't worry, as your removal of this template has been reverted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. I have two questions:
- - One of the templates I removed was almost a decade old and claimed that the article relied on a single source. I counted 10 separate sources for the article. Are 10 sources regarded as insufficient for such a short article?
- - Secondly, are you following me around on Wikipedia? If you are, I would imagine this could constitute as harassment. Please stop. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- On your first question, you can check what I reverted here - it wasn't the removal of a single-source template. On the second, I clicked on your contribution history to see what changes you'd made to the ICOC article and spotted this template removal. If you think that's harassment, you can report me at WP:AN/I. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, the 2nd tag I removed literally says “This article relies largely or entirely on a single source.” Which according to your edit link highlighted above you reversed. The article has 10 different sources, is that not enough for Wikipedia? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Please look at your edit and my revert again. The template you removed was Template:Refimprove, not Template:single source (which you left in place). Cordless Larry (talk) 18:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks. So you are happy for me to remove the single source template?
- - 2ndly, you have shown through this interaction that as an Admin you can use your authority in a way that is not heavy handed. Thank you 🙏. Can you do the same over at the ICOC page, where it comes across like you have an axe to grind? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed it myself. On your other point, I've not been using my admin powers here - any editor can contest the removal of a maintenance template. My only agenda in relation to the ICOC article is to try to ensure that it complies with Wikipedia's sourcing policies and to ensure its contents are not dictated by the wishes of editors with conflicts of interest. If you believe otherwise, you'll need to take it up on the appropriate user conduct noticeboard. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Please look at your edit and my revert again. The template you removed was Template:Refimprove, not Template:single source (which you left in place). Cordless Larry (talk) 18:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, the 2nd tag I removed literally says “This article relies largely or entirely on a single source.” Which according to your edit link highlighted above you reversed. The article has 10 different sources, is that not enough for Wikipedia? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- On your first question, you can check what I reverted here - it wasn't the removal of a single-source template. On the second, I clicked on your contribution history to see what changes you'd made to the ICOC article and spotted this template removal. If you think that's harassment, you can report me at WP:AN/I. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)