User talk:Hzh/Archive 12

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Hzh. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 5

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Archive 10

Archive 11

Archive 12

A barnstar for your efforts

		COVID-19 Barnstar
		Awarded for efforts in expanding and verifying articles related to COVID-19. Awarded by Cdjp1 (talk) 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Tottenham Hotspur Academy - notable graduates

Hi Hzh. I have been doing some work on the Tottenham academy page, Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Under-23s and Academy. You have made many contributions to Tottenham-related articles over the years and I wonder if I might have the benefit of your input concerning notable academy (and youth team) graduates. I am inclined to think that 25 first team appearances is too few and I would suggest increasing that to 50, but what about the likes of Kerry Dixon who played for Tottenham's youth team and went on to play for England but never played a first team game for Tottenham? Please take a look at what I have in my sandbox User:LenF54/sandbox and feel free to let me have your views on the "notability" question. Thanks. LenF54 (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

@LenF54: The question of notability is tricky, any number you choose as a cut-off point would be arbitrary, and not that useful. I don't think whether they played for Tottenham is that important, but whether they play for any national team may be more significant. (I'm, however, trying to think if there are notable players who never played for a national team. Micky Hazard? Falco?) Do you have a list of possible entries on the web somewhere I can have a look at? What exactly are the criteria for inclusion in the article? For example, it says "graduate", so does Kerry Dixon count as a graduate? Some names are not there, like Chris Hughton, is there any reason for his omission? A better approach might be thinking about what names could be missing if we use certain criteria before deciding which criteria to use. Hzh (talk) 20:51, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Hzh. Please give me a couple of days to modify the piece in my sandbox. There are other internationals like Chris McGrath and Phil Gray to consider. And what about Troy Parrott and Maksim Paskotsi, who are already full internationals but don't seem to have "graduated." I have some ideas - which would mean losing Onomah, Skipp and Tanganga - but I think I should continue working on it and not put it live yet. LenF54 (talk) 14:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I've done some more work in my sandbox. I have looked at Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham and there doesn't seem to be a consensus on who and how to list. I think full internationals have to be shown, but this loses Hazard so I have added a second batch which amounts to the uncapped longer servers. As you say, any number is arbitrary so perhaps I should look at 100 appearances, since 100 could be considered to be "notable". Regards. LenF54 (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@LenF54: Perhaps use "youth team players and Academy graduates", that would cover more players. I'd say 100 or more would be better, there are a lot of more obscure players otherwise. Do those who were in the Northfleet nursery club count as youth team players? Hzh (talk) 10:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Hzh. The Northfleet arrangement was well before my time so I haven't looked at it yet, but I would say that it was somewhere for the youth team players so I will include a mention of it in the body of the article. Over the years I have been in contact with Pat Holland and Paul Brush several times (old school connection). My e-mail yesterday to Paul at Tottenham bounced, and Pat replied to my personal e-mail to say he has lost contact with Spurs. Certainly Pat should be removed from the Academy coaching staff; possibly Paul too. LenF54 (talk) 14:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Son Heung-min

In response to this, I would ask: why is it *always* notable? Whilst a footballer scoring a hat-trick isn't an everyday event, it's not something so rare or remarkable that we need to write about it on a players' biography every single time it happens. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mattythewhite: I have to say this is surprising for you to say, of course hat tricks are notable events, particularly in top flight competition (and this one was achieved at an away game). This is even an article that list all the hat tricks - List of Premier League hat-tricks. Few footballers score a lot of hat tricks, and this season fewer than ten hat-tricks have been scored in the Premier League, and you can assume that most strikers/attacking players in the Premier League haven't score one yet this season, and you can also assume that a fair number of them won't score one by the end of the season. As you can also see in the article, it's only Son's second one in the Premier League. It would be a significant event for any footballer in any particular season to score one. Hzh (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter May 2022

Hello Hzh,

At the time of the last newsletter (No.26, September 2021), the backlog was 'only' just over 6,000 articles. In the past six months, the backlog has reached nearly 16,000, a staggering level not seen in several years. A very small number of users had been doing the vast majority of the reviews. Due to "burn-out", we have recently lost most of this effort. Furthermore, several reviewers have been stripped of the user right for abuse of privilege and the articles they patrolled were put back in the queue.

Several discussions on the state of the process have taken place on the talk page, but there has been no action to make any changes. The project also lacks coordination since the "position" is vacant.

In the last 30 days, only 100 reviewers have made more than 8 patrols and only 50 have averaged one review a day. There are currently 804 New Page Reviewers, but about a third have not had any activity in the past month. All 847 administrators have this permission, but only about a dozen significantly contribute to NPP.

This means we have an active pool of about 450 to address the backlog. We cannot rely on a few to do most of the work as that inevitably leads to burnout. A fairly experienced reviewer can usually do a review in a few minutes. If every active reviewer would patrol just one article per day, the backlog would very quickly disappear.

If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, do suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.

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Sent 05:17, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 28

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New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022

Hello Hzh,

Backlog status

At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000^[a] at the end of May.

Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.^[b]

In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).

While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).

Backlog drive

A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here. Barnstars will be awarded.

TIP – New school articles

Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.

Misc

There is a new template available, {{NPP backlog}}, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:

Very high unreviewed pages backlog: 13805 articles, as of 08:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC), according to DatBot

There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.

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Notes

^ not including another ~6,000 redirects
^ The number of weekly reviews reported in the NPP feed includes redirects, which are not included in the backlog we primarily track.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!

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On 1 July, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled. Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive. Redirect patrolling is not part of the drive. Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
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(t · c) buidhe 20:25, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter August 2022

Hello Hzh,

Backlog status

After the last newsletter (No.28, June 2022), the backlog declined another 1,000 to 13,000 in the last week of June. Then the July backlog drive began, during which 9,900 articles were reviewed and the backlog fell by 4,500 to just under 8,500 (these numbers illustrate how many new articles regularly flow into the queue). Thanks go to the coordinators Buidhe and Zippybonzo, as well as all the nearly 100 participants. Congratulations to Dr vulpes who led with 880 points. See this page for further details.

Unfortunately, most of the decline happened in the first half of the month, and the backlog has already risen to 9,600. Understandably, it seems many backlog drive participants are taking a break from reviewing and unfortunately, we are not even keeping up with the inflow let alone driving it lower. We need the other 600 reviewers to do more! Please try to do at least one a day.

Coordination: MB and Novem Linguae have taken on some of the coordination tasks. Please let them know if you are interested in helping out. MPGuy2824 will be handling recognition, and will be retroactively awarding the annual barnstars that have not been issued for a few years.

Open letter to the WMF: The Page Curation software needs urgent attention. There are dozens of bug fixes and enhancements that are stalled (listed at Suggested improvements). We have written a letter to be sent to the WMF and we encourage as many patrollers as possible to sign it here. We are also in negotiation with the Board of Trustees to press for assistance. Better software will make the active reviewers we have more productive.

TIP - Reviewing by subject: Reviewers who prefer to patrol new pages by their most familiar subjects can do so from the regularly updated sorted topic list.

New reviewers: The NPP School is being underused. The learning curve for NPP is quite steep, but a detailed and easy-to-read tutorial exists, and the Curation Tool's many features are fully described and illustrated on the updated page here.

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Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

NPP message

Hi Hzh,

Invitation

For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:10, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Fifteenth anniversary on Wikipedia!

Invitation to join the Fifteen Year Society

Dear Hzh/Archive 12,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more.

Best regards, Chris Troutman (talk) 14:27, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

NPP Award for 2019

		The New Page Patroller's Barnstar
		For over 100 article reviews during 2019. Thank you for patrolling new pages and helping us out with the backlog! -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Here is a barnstar to show appreciation for the NPP reviews you did back in 2019. We realize this is late, but NPP fell behind in some coordination activities. We are almost caught up. If you don't want to receive "old" barnstars, please just ignore this and reply to let us know not to send you any more. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

NPP Award for 2018

		The New Page Reviewer's Iron Award
		For over 360 article reviews during 2018. Thank you for patrolling new pages and helping us out with the backlog! -MPGuy2824 (talk) 03:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Here is a barnstar to show appreciation for the NPP reviews you did back in 2018. We realize this is late, but NPP fell behind in some coordination activities. We have just caught up with giving out deserved barnstars. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 03:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

October 2022 New Pages Patrol backlog drive

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(t · c) buidhe 21:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Please have a look at this page when you have time.

Hi, I created the Magic Management page. The company was a Canadian music management company. I can't find another other examples of Canadian music management companies in Canada here. Anyway, it has been nominated for deletion. OK, what ever happens may happen. The concern I have is that the nominator and the first person to vote to delete it are grossly inaccurate and by their own admission have only glanced it over. If you look here, the nominator says they can't see the page numbers. I Have been through the refs and I can see them fine! I explained with some ref links, "All you have to do is press, Control+F, press Enter and then the Box comes up. Just type in "Magic Management" and then press the downward arrow and you'll see the article plus the page number."

Then the first deletion voter says Delete likely a promotional article to boost GSearch ratings, who knows, if they're even still active... No sources, GNG not met.
Well that's a strange accusation and reckless. Then says no sources. Well at the time there were. So it seems that this person may have just glanced over ... "Oh yeah, delete".

Then the second deletion voter says Delete Major WP:SIGCOV issues here along with WP:REFBOMBing. I didn't go through all of the references, but most that I did review are trivial mentions where the company is namechecked once in articles about other subjects - I thought I had enough refs and the two below are good
* RPM Weekly, Volume 19 No. 1 - Page 4 Kearney, Truck, Good Bros. Moving for Magic

RPM Weekly, Volume 25 No. 12 - June 19, 1976 - Page 14 Slic Brothers article
But looking at the edits that seem to only go back to 23 September 2022, is the user that experienced enough to make that kind of judgement? OK, if by the rules hasn't at this time got enough sizable articles to make it a stand alone article then I accept that. In that case I think the history should be preserved at it go as a redirect to either Peter Francey or Christopher Kearney who had a long association with the company. What do you think? Cheers

Karl Twist (talk) 09:20, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Thankyou for your common sense knowledgeable approach to things. Also for the tidy up. Cheers Karl Twist (talk) 09:18, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter October 2022

Hello Hzh,

Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.

Awards: Barnstars were given for the past several years (thanks to MPGuy2824), and we are now all caught up. The 2021 cup went to John B123 for leading with 26,525 article reviews during 2021. To encourage moderate activity, a new "Iron" level barnstar is awarded annually for reviewing 360 articles ("one-a-day"), and 100 reviews earns the "Standard" NPP barnstar. About 90 reviewers received barnstars for each of the years 2018 to 2021 (including the new awards that were given retroactively). All awards issued for every year are listed on the Awards page. Check out the new Hall of Fame also.

Software news: Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have connected with WMF developers who can review and approve patches, so they have been able to fix some bugs, and make other improvements to the Page Curation software. You can see everything that has been fixed recently here. The reviewer report has also been improved.

Suggestions:

There is much enthusiasm over the low backlog, but remember that the "quality and depth of patrolling are more important than speed".
Reminder: an article should not be tagged for any kind of deletion for a minimum of 15 minutes after creation and it is often appropriate to wait an hour or more. (from the NPP tutorial)
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Backlog:

Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!

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Disambiguation link notification for December 27

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Les Compagnons de la chanson, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Riders in the Sky and Here's to You.

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Happy New Year, Hzh!

Happy New Year!

Hzh,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 02:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 02:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

New Pages Patrol newsletter January 2023

Hello Hzh,

Backlog

The October drive reduced the backlog from 9,700 to an amazing 0! Congratulations to WaddlesJP13 who led with 2084 points. See this page for further details. The queue is steadily rising again and is approaching 2,000. It would be great if <2,000 were the “new normal”. Please continue to help out even if it's only for a few or even one patrol a day.

2022 Awards

Onel5969 won the 2022 cup for 28,302 article reviews last year - that's an average of nearly 80/day. There was one Gold Award (5000+ reviews), 11 Silver (2000+), 28 Iron (360+) and 39 more for the 100+ barnstar. Rosguill led again for the 4th year by clearing 49,294 redirects. For the full details see the Awards page and the Hall of Fame. Congratulations everyone!

Minimum deletion time: The previous WP:NPP guideline was to wait 15 minutes before tagging for deletion (including draftification and WP:BLAR). Due to complaints, a consensus decided to raise the time to 1 hour. To illustrate this, very new pages in the feed are now highlighted in red. (As always, this is not applicable to attack pages, copyvios, vandalism, etc.)

New draftify script: In response to feedback from AFC, the The Move to Draft script now provides a choice of set messages that also link the creator to a new, friendly explanation page. The script also warns reviewers if the creator is probably still developing the article. The former script is no longer maintained. Please edit your edit your common.js or vector.js file from User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js to User:MPGuy2824/MoveToDraft.js

Redirects: Some of our redirect reviewers have reduced their activity and the backlog is up to 9,000+ (two months deep). If you are interested in this distinctly different task and need any help, see this guide, this checklist, and spend some time at WP:RFD.

Discussions with the WMF The PageTriage open letter signed by 444 users is bearing fruit. The Growth Team has assigned some software engineers to work on PageTriage, the software that powers the NewPagesFeed and the Page Curation toolbar. WMF has submitted dozens of patches in the last few weeks to modernize PageTriage's code, which will make it easier to write patches in the future. This work is helpful but is not very visible to the end user. For patches visible to the end user, volunteers such as Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have been writing patches for bug reports and feature requests. The Growth Team also had a video conference with the NPP coordinators to discuss revamping the landing pages that new users see.

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Splitting Cover Songs Discussion

Hi - you may be interested in the WT:WikiProject Songs#Cover_songs_that_should_be_split discussion - would appreciate your thoughts. -- DarylKayes (talk) 09:37, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Requesting Edits..

Hi Hzh. My name is Phil and I work with Hillhouse Capital Group an investment group. In compliance with WP:COI, I'm trying to request a few changes to the page at-a-time on the Talk page. I was hoping you might be willing to review a few suggested changes at Talk:Hillhouse_Capital_Group#Requested Edits (under the Requested Edits discussion string). If you have a minute, your time as an impartial editor would be greatly appreciated. Best regards. Phil2600 (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Phil2600: I have no problem making these edits, the only question I have is can you explain more clearly how you see #2 as undue? Unimportant as far as Hillhouse goes? I won't do it just yet, but will do it some time soon. Hzh (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Hzh. Thanks so much for taking a look! To answer your question, I think the GaoTeng partnership is WP:UNDUE, because it is cited to a 5-sentence blurb in a niche publication that's likely just a summary of a press release. I imagine not every internet blurb should be aggregated and such blurbs do not really infer any fact-checking from the journalist. I defer to you of course and only mean to answer your question (not to argue).

For the list of 2021 investments, I was able to find a citation for them in Bloomberg. Let me know if I can of any other assistance. I have other changes I'd like to ask for too if you are willing to stick around. Phil2600 (talk) 00:55, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy notification

Back in 2016, Diannaa notified you of the requirements for copying within Wikipedia. You probably don't remember, but you'd added material from Thomas Heatherwick to UK pavilion at Expo 2010, and while you'd noted in your edit summaries at the Heatherwick article what you were doing, you didn't note it at the article on the pavilion. Unfortunately I've discovered that the text you copied from the Heatherwick article was a copyvio of at least one of the cited sources. You weren't to know and did nothing wrong in assuming good faith that the text was the work of other editors, but I'm about to make a post on Diannaa's talk page reporting the copyvio and asking for a revision deletion. I will be pinging you there, but I'm letting you know in advance that I'm not blaming you. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Lee San Choon

On 7 March 2023, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Lee San Choon, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. —Bagumba (talk) 07:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Unchained Melody

i see you reverted the information added to article "Unchained Melody" stating concerning the music genre, but it does i believe not actually have a genre as such, or that i can see, it is classified as a "standard", as it also states in article because it has been recorded by so many people and it can not fit into one specific category, as you wrote yourself, i could be classified as simply a pop song, an easy listening song or The Righteous Brothers version a blue eyed soul song — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.10.178 (talk) 22:24, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

It is not sourced, not in the text or anywhere else, don't add unsourced genre in the infobox as specifically stated there. Hzh (talk) 22:41, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Im sorry but it is. sourced, in the text and actually in the very first section paragraph, it states "the song has since became a standard and is one of the most recorded songs of the 20th century, but anyway i did not change the music genre in the infobox, as per your request, so it is still listed as "easy listening" on the majority of artists versions. except the pop version's by Elvis Presley and Gareth Gates and as blue eyed soul by the Righteous Brothers, please take care, kind regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.10.178 (talk) 06:23, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

No, it is not sourced, you can check by read the cited source. It is also not sourced for the others; blue-eyed soul is generally considered to be the Righteous Brothers' genre, but no source is given there specifically for that song. Hzh (talk) 06:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

New Page Patrol – May 2023 Backlog Drive

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"Use review from a better known publication"

Hello. I don't understand why you wrote this edit summary. That sounds like something you might say if you were replacing a score in the table when there are already 10 scores present, instead of adding one when there aren't even 10 scores in the table yet. It's not as if I or anybody was neglecting to use it, it simply had not been added yet, and so it's not like you need to defend your decision to add it. Also, when you update Metacritic or AnyDecentMusic? scores, please update the access-date to show the source still works and that you re-accessed it (which you obviously had to to know the score had changed). Thank you. Ss112 02:01, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Ss112: Not replacing a score, replacing a review in the text. I realise people use lesser-known publications when there are few reviews, but it's always better to use more well-known publications when there are more reviews. No one really care about the opinion of a reviewer from a lesser-known publication unless it is exceptional, and people need to be selective about reviews, not putting every available reviews out there in the article. At the moment I also see reviews from NME and Rolling Stone, those are the reviews that needed to be put in. Hzh (talk) 06:57, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

ITN recognition for George Winston

On 10 June 2023, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article George Winston, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 05:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

New Pages Patrol newsletter June 2023

Hello Hzh,

Backlog

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Thanks

Thanks for reverting the new editor, as he has broken the WP:3RR, I am right now reporting him to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. The edits he did is clearly simply taken from an amateur youtube video Danial Bass (talk) 18:10, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The IP editor is likely to be Adamahmad95 since both edit the same pages. The person is likely using the IP address to continue edit-warring. If the admin at the edit warring board doesn't do anything, then he/she can be reported to the sock puppet investigation. Hzh (talk) 18:16, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I also brought up the IP address in the report. Looks like the editor's blocked for 24 hours. Guess we can revert everything back now? (Btw, your wiki edits are good, I come across them alot). Have a good one Danial Bass (talk) 18:54, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, restore the pages to the earlier state. We'll see if they return to the same pages after 24 hours. They often do, so be prepared to report them again. Hzh (talk) 19:01, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

New page patrol October 2023 Backlog drive

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

September 2023

Your recent editing history at Go woke, go broke shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Raladic (talk) 16:02, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Pleae refrain from pushing a WP:POV of the article and cherry picking things to suit said WP:POV. The statements by experts [1] in the cited article is made about companies in general dealing with such boycotts, it does not need to mention every single company by name to be reliably sourced consensus.

Your removal such as this is also problematic as it is agreed on, with multiple sources in the linked main article that you could pull in instead of claiming that none of the sources have said so. Raladic (talk) 16:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Raladic: What is WP:POV with saying that the statement given doesn't equally apply to the cases mentioned in the lede: Target, Disney and Bud Light when it is written as though it is? Go read the sources on Target again, none of them mentioned what is claimed there - what is said is something different, which is laws on child protection. The claim of "falsely" is particularly egregious. Where has that been discussed? Discuss it if you want, but don't claim there has been discussion on that when there hasn't. There is also no clear resolution in the discussion on the lede. That article has always been problematic, the whole thing may need to be TNT. Hzh (talk) 16:31, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The sources that the claims were false are in 2023 Target Pride Month merchandise backlash, your outright refusal to even have tried to look for one of the many sources that have refuted claims by certain media shows that you may have an WP:AGENDA in advancing a certain WP:POV that removes any refutation of the phrase of the article.

The lead has to try to neutrally show points and counterpoints when the whole catchphrase by itself is that of an opinion, in this case by right-wing politicians. We can try to write the article about the existance and use of the phrase as it is a matter of current political affairs, but we cannot advance the opinion that the phrase carries as fact, as it very clearly is not - it is a catchphrase of opinion of politicians. The list of claimed examples in the lead is also just a non-exhaustive list which the words "such as" suggest. That does not mean that every expert opinion needs to exactly match this list in points made. Raladic (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Raladic: No, article that makes a claim needs to have sources supporting it. That sources may be found in other places is irrelevant. Note that transgender-friendly product does not make it "sexually-themed" which has an entirely different connotation (which is ironic when you accuse others of not reading the article when that article said nothing about "sexually-themed"). So what's written even with your source is still essentially OR. Stop making accusation and address the point made in the talk page. 17:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

We don't hold opinion on anything apart from writing as neutrally and as accurately as possible. Trying to make a sweeping definitive statement out of specific cases is neither neutral nor accurate. Hzh (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the whole article is basically that of an opinion, a political catchphrase opinion and as you said, the whole thing may not be safeable as it is just and endless listing of claimed pro and counter points, which by themselves can further be considered opinion (even with some experts chiming in in various directions).

So, with that I have just nominated the article at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Go woke, go broke as an opinion piece under WP:NOT. The phrase itself is already encyclopedically covered under Woke capitalism, most everything else that is in the current article is basically just opinion pieces for and against. Raladic (talk) 17:33, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Could have just said you were wrong to revert my edits, and save all the drama. Hzh (talk) 18:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Oliver Anthony

On 13 September 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Oliver Anthony, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that "Rich Men North of Richmond" by Oliver Anthony was the first single to chart at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 with no previous chart history for its artist? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Oliver Anthony. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Oliver Anthony), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 12:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Rich Men North of Richmond

On 13 September 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Rich Men North of Richmond, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that "Rich Men North of Richmond" by Oliver Anthony was the first single to chart at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 with no previous chart history for its artist? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Oliver Anthony. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Rich Men North of Richmond), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 12:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 10,554 views (917.7 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of September 2023 – nice work!

GalliumBot (talk • contribs) (he/it) 03:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

McQueen images

I'm not sure what skin or resolution you're using, but on both Vector 2010 and Vector 2022, the images are badly sandwiched. It looks bad and has looked bad for years. Can you not see it here in these examples? Left 3 are Vector 2010, right 3 are Vector 2022. There are also multiple instances of images breaking section headers when placed on the left, which is to be avoided per MOS:IMAGELOC. WP:STACKING applies to instances where images combine badly with block quotes and other elements to create big swathes of white space, which I didn't do, so invoking that here is irrelevant.

♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:02, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: Sandwiched is when you have two images directly facing each other as given in WP:SANDWICH and the example looks bad because both images are wide, so the text in the middle gpt squeezed. The images in the article are staggered, and not wide. There is some overlap, but it still looks OK. You should capture how it looks in your edit - the Plato's Atlantis image is weirdly distorted, and the Angels and Demons image got pushed entirely into the company section (and other images are also pushed out of their sections). The page simply look terrible. If you want to keep all images on one side, adjust the image size, and remove the long images. Frankly though, an article on a fashion designer without a fair number of images of their work is not that useful because fashion is visual (see Karl Lagerfeld, readers have absolutely no idea about what his works look like). Another thing that could be done is the increase the text, for example, a number of collections aren't described at all. Or use a gallery. Hzh (talk) 22:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I have no opposition to using numerous images in an article, but the placement as it stands is not attractive and violates the MOS in multiple ways. Sandwiching does not apply only to images that are exactly opposite each other. That would be a very silly interpretation and not at all what the practice is - any time I've had images overlapping at FAC, it's been called out as sandwiching. The middle section with the Bowie coat is particularly egregious as the image on the left overlaps two separate images on the right and breaks a section header, and the Blade Runner coat on the right overlaps with the next image on the left, for a 4x sandwiching combo.

The distortion you're talking about on the Plato's image is likely a result of your cache not being purged after I cropped the image more tightly, and has nothing to do with the image placement. Per MOS:SECTIONLOC, it's fine for images to go below their section (in fact, this explicitly stated to be better than them being placed early). But given that you're complaining about it, what is Horn of Plenty doing way down in "Accomplishments", when it has nothing to do with that text?

As a side note, the image you added of the two Natural Dis-Tinction dresses is redundant to the one of Camilla Belle wearing almost the exact same dress with the exact same print, so at a minimum that ought to be removed regardless of anything else. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: I would rather remove the Camilla Belle image because it is not an interesting or attractive one. The Horn of Plenty was just here to give an indication of the diversity of his design, delete it if you want, but it's not an argument for pushing Angels and Demons image down. MOS:SECTIONLOC merely indicate the image should be placed in the correct section, too early an placement meant that the image won't go anywhere the paragraph where it is mentioned, that would be similar for a displaced image. It's merely mentioned elsewhere that an image may get pushed down, that is all. Whatever you think, you edit produce a far more unattractive article than what it was. Stacking of images is just as unattractive as sandwich (which it really isn't here if you don't use the full width of the screen), if not more so, because you get a long line of images, a lot of which have no relevance to the sections they are in. Just avoid using the long images if you want them all donw one side, or use only very few, you can put the rest in a gallery. Hzh (talk) 00:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: By the way, when you trim an image so much, use a new file name rather than uploading it to the same one to stop the image becoming so distorted. It is unreasonable to expect others to know that this is what you have done. Hzh (talk) 07:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

You are objectively wrong in your interpretation of the MOS regarding images here, both in terms of the sandwiching and the header breaking, and I wish you would let go of "your" version of the article and be willing to see that. My version wasn't perfect, but it's not blatantly breaking two separate MOS areas the way the current version is. For the record, I am using a full width screen, and I provided screenshots which indicate that the sandwiching issue exists on both Vector 2010 and Vector 2022. It's clearly not an issue with my display, but with your refusal to accept what image sandwiching is.

Per c:COM:CROP, there is no reason to use a brand-new upload just for tightening an image crop. Clear your browser cache - the image isn't distorted, I have experienced this before when viewing images that have been adjusted and I haven't cleared my browser cache. Here's a link to the image, in case you want to click onto Commons and check: File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 59.jpg. It's skinnier, because unfortunately the human body is a rectangle rather than a nice tidy square, but it also shows the actual clothing much better because there is less wasted empty space on the sides. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: Stop the talking already, do what you want, just don't stack them so much, a solid column of images just look ugly af. (I have already given you suggestions on how not to stack them). I'm actually saying that if you don't use full-width screen (which I rarely do when I use a computer with a high-resolution screen, because all articles look weird), you will see the images are clearly staggered.

Are you the uploader? If it is not my images, then it is courtesy to upload a new one if I trim a substantial part of the image. You did trim a substantial part of the image (it is now less than half the size of the original image, over half has been trimmed), it is not a minor adjustment, it is a major change, and per the guideline you gave, any major change requires a new file. Hzh (talk) 07:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not the uploader, but Liliana is fine with me making adjustments to her McQueen images considering she took them all at my request. Either way, it's not a major change per that guideline if it's just a crop to remove blank space, even if that blank space was quite large. It feels like you're moving the goalposts on me now just to continue arguing - previously you were complaining that it was distorted, and now that I've explained that that is a cache issue, suddenly it's a problem that I cropped the image.

I don't know why, but it seems like every single significant change to this article has to be a fight with you. I wish it wouldn't, we obviously both want the article to be its best self. We had the same back and forth with the lead as well last year, and now it's about making changes to the images. You're the one who keeps arguing with me here, so I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me to "stop the talking" as if I'm the only one perpetuating this conversation. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 14:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: Jesus, this is getting tedious. I already said ages ago that you can change it, just don't stack the images. That is all. Why you keep going at it is beyond me. And if you removed more than half the image, that's a major adjustment, not something minor. It's you cropping the image that resulted in the problem with the cache, problem which would not arise if you use a new file. A casual reader is not going to care or know about the cache issue, they are just going to see a weird distorted image. Have some consideration for other readers when you make a change.

And the lede is now significantly better. And that's credit to you. Hzh (talk) 15:03, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The caching issue is only a problem when you've already been looking at the article and there is something in your browser cache from the old version. For any other reader, there would be no cached version, so the image would not appear distorted in this way. Please don't accuse me of being inconsiderate when it's a minor technical issue temporarily affecting one or two people at most. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:17, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: You just blithely dismissed those affected by it. Whatever, I shall say no more, and won't reply to you further. Hzh (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

You're clutching at straws here trying to make me the bad guy, and I don't appreciate it and cannot let it stand without a response. I'm being accused of "blithely dismissing" the invented victims of my supposedly inconsiderate action, which was to crop an image in a perfectly standard way, which no one but you has found to be a problem any time I've ever done it. I hope at some point you can take a step back and see how unreasonable these bad-faith accusations are. I would far rather work with you on this article than fight about it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

(Sniggering at a reply from someone "considerate". People don't exist if they don't complain. The astonishing arrogance.) Hzh (talk) 10:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

here is some tea

please enjoy it MisterN1C022 (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Hzh (talk) 21:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:The_Storm_Before_the_Calm#Euro_label

@Hzh: Share your thoughts regarding the album if you wish to. 183.171.120.130 (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Can't say that I have anything significant to add, since I don't know what the label actually is. If Epiphany is not the actual label as argued by someone there, then it should be given as something else. Hzh (talk) 12:51, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Man Of Constant Sorrow

@Hzh: I'm not sure why you reverted the addition of a disambiguation hatnote pointing to another song of the same name. WP:HATNOTE doesn't say anywhere that the other topic in question must have its own article- the guideline simply states "Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind." That's certainly the case here- I came to the article myself searching for the HMHB song and was quite surprised to discover that there's another song of the same name. Even though there's no article on the HMHB song, the article on the album it's from mentions the song, so would be an appropriate place to disambiguate the reader to.

I'd also mention that it's commonplace for disambiguation pages to point to topics with no article but which are mentioned in broader articles. For example four of the seven topics at Space Oddity (disambiguation) don't have dedicated articles. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 14:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Given that the full title of the song is "Man of Constant Sorrow (With a Garage in Constant Use)", too dissimilar to the song, and if someone knows that it's a Half Man Half Biscuit song, they would not go to "Man of Constant Sorrow", which is far more well-known. It is unlikely that someone would make the mistake of coming to "Man of Constant Sorrow". Hatnote can direct to another article that has a similar name, not to something only half similar mentioned in another article. You should create a redirect of that name to the album, so that if someone is searching for that song, the song title will pop up and they can go that album, rather than "Man of Constant Sorrow". I wonder why you tried to disambiguate only for this song only, "The Announcement"? "Terminus"? Or add a hatnote for Checkatrade if you think yo can do it for half a song title? (And why is Checkatrade linked to EFL Trophy in that article?) Hzh (talk) 22:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I think there's a pretty clear difference between "half of a song title" and a song title which happens to have a section after in brackets- it is very much conceivable that someone might not type the brackets when searching for the song. There is precedent for this in the fact that the Moving Out disambiguation page links to Movin' Out (Anthony's Song): it is not expected that the reader will inevitably type the entire song title when searching for it, as there's a good chance they won't.
I added the hatnote for this song simply because I came across the article when browsing wikipedia looking for information on the HMHB song and got very confused by an unrelated song coming up- as you mentioned, were I looking for information on the song "Terminus", I really don't think it would be unreasonable to add that to the Terminus#Music disambiguation page section (and in fact I would be inclined to do so now unless you have some reason to object to that too?) Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 22:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"Man Of Constant Sorrow" is not a disambiguation page. The hatnote is there to disambiguate another article, not to disambiguate something partly mentioned in another article (WP:HATCONFUSE certainly doesn't indicate you can do that, good examples given in that page are all about other articles, the one that mention the content of another article is given as an example of improper use in another context). If you create a redirect for "Man of Constant Sorrow (With a Garage in Constant Use)", the whole title will pop up if you just type "Man of Constant Sorrow" or even shorter because it forms part of the search, you don't need to type out the whole thing to search. You can add Terminus to a disambiguation page. Conceivably you could consider starting a disambiguation page for "Man Of Constant Sorrow" given that there are similar articles like A Maid of Constant Sorrow and "Gal of Constant Sorrow" ("Maid of Constant Sorrow" for example is the title of a version of "Man of Constant Sorrow"), but that is still debatable. Hzh (talk) 23:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I suppose it would be possible to list things like that on the existing Man of Sorrows (disambiguation) disambiguation page as it's similar enough, and put a hatnote at Man of Constant Sorrow saying "For other uses, see Man of Sorrows (disambiguation)". Would that sound acceptable to you? Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 02:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

It is not really close enough to require a disambiguation link on that article. Hzh (talk) 08:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

The folk song is already listed in the "see also" section on that article. I could remove it if you think it's not similar enough. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 09:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

See also is intended for titles that are similar but not the close enough. Stop talking as if hathote and disambiguation page are the same thing. Hzh (talk) 12:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

My point is that if Man of Sorrows (disambiguation) has a "See also" link to Man of Constant Sorrow thanks to title similarity, I don't see any reason why Man of Sorrows (disambiguation) shouldn't also have a "See also" link to Man of Constant Sorrow (With a Garage in Constant Use), again thanks to title similarity? It's already been established that parentheses in a song title don't make it so completely different that it isn't worth a mention. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 13:53, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

You talked about adding a hatnote about Man of Sorrows (disambiguation) to Man of Constant Sorrow. I was simply reacting to that. I don't really care if you add Man of Constant Sorrow (With a Garage in Constant Use) to the "See also" section in the disambiguation page. Good to see that you have created the redirect. You can do that for the other songs, it's commonly done. Hzh (talk) 14:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Will do, thank you. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 14:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

November Articles for creation backlog drive

Hello Hzh:

WikiProject Articles for creation is holding a month long Backlog Drive!
The goal of this drive is to reduce the backlog of unreviewed drafts to less than 2 months outstanding reviews from the current 4+ months. Bonus points will be given for reviewing drafts that have been waiting more than 30 days. The drive is running from 1 November 2023 through 30 November 2023.

You may find Category:AfC pending submissions by age or other categories and sorting helpful.

Barnstars will be given out as awards at the end of the drive.

There is a backlog of over 1500 pages, so start reviewing drafts. We're looking forward to your help! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Sound of Freedom (film)

It's possible you're confused about how WP:BRD works. In any case, it's a pretty clear-cut policy to have quick summaries in the lead that summarize large sections of the body, so I would avoid removing that sentence from the lead. Fred Zepelin (talk) 14:52, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem is given unwarranted attention to a single issue out of many in the article, when it is part of a larger response to the film. The film became part of the culture war (as mentioned in the reception), and any mention of QAnon would need to be given in that context, not doing so would be pushing the POV of one side of the argument. The discussion can continue in the talk page of the article, not here. Hzh (talk) 15:46, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't putting it in that context be pushing the POV of one side of the argument? The sources don't do that, they don't tie the two together that closely. A conspiracy theory isn't a valid political opinion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Plenty of sources do explicitly state that the film's success was due the culture war and mention QAnon as an element in the film, and culture war is already mentioned in the article. I've given some links to that in the article talk page, and that's where the discussion should be conducted. Hzh (talk) 18:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

And how do you get from there to QAnon being only a culture war thing? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I didn't say that QAnon is only a culture war thing. The sources that mention culture war and the film talked about QAnon, very prominently here - [2]. The sources made the link, not me. Hzh (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

The source you point to here has this line in it: "It was Caviezel who cemented the film’s connections to the notorious QAnon." Interesting example to use while you're attempting to REMOVE the reference to QAnon in the lead, wouldn't you say? Fred Zepelin (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Don't know why you want to still talking about it, but that line has got nothing to do with the sources I gave in relation to RS on QAnon link. I already explained it in the discussion, the Guardian attacked the film, and as an opinion, what it said has to be attributed per WP:RSOPINION, you can give it as an opinion but it is not RS for statement of fact. Go and read neutral RS, for example this BBC one [3], it clearly stated that the QAnon link as an allegation. You cannot state an allegation as a fact. Learn the basics of how to edit in Wikipedia in a neutral manner. Hzh (talk) 16:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

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[1] t including another ~6,000 redirects

[2] The number of weekly reviews reported in the NPP feed includes redirects, which are not included in the backlog we primarily track.

[a]

[b]