User talk:Edwarddutton/Archive 1

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1886 Epsom Derby

Good new article. I think that most of the articles on individual Derby winners should have references to press reports on the race. These could be used as the basis for articles. In the nineteenth century the number of "placed" horses tended to vary according to how alert the judge was. Tigerboy1966  16:47, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that 0 is fine as long as you have a note at the foot of the table explaining what it means (as you have for 1886). The press reports sometimes have more info on the finishing order than the official result. You could include this with a note to say that the placing was unofficial.  Tigerboy1966  12:12, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Reflinks

Good work expanding Ormonde (horse). It needed doing. Do you know about about Reflinks? It's a tool that enables you to put all the references into standard format, saving a lot of time and effort. It's here [1]. Select "interactive" and "all unformatted Links", put the page page title and RUN. Note that you have to "show preview" before you "save changes" (that's how it works on Chrome anyhow: I seem to remember that on Internet Explorer you could just save without previewing). Tigerboy1966  21:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Robert Townshend (Judge)

The article Robert Townshend (Judge) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Biographies need solid, reliable sources. The only real reference supplied doesn't even mention the subject.

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Invitation

I would like to invite you to join Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse racing. Not only do you write well, but your choice of articles to create shows that you know your stuff: what I mean is that you identified some of the most glaring gaps in the Wikipedia coverage of racing; Orme, The Bard, Bona Vista, Danehill Dancer. If I could make one suggestion, Friar's Balsam (1885) would make for an interesting article. Tigerboy1966  21:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Dollars, pounds

Horses should usually have their earnings in their "native" currency, but the more important point is that the figures should come from reliable sources. For modern European horses I use the Racing Post, which tends to convert everything into pounds. Sometimes things get complicated: Snurge for example, won prize money in so many different currencies that his exact earnings are uncertain.

The reason that some European horses have earnings in dollars is probably down to a website called Pedigree Query. In 2006-2009 hundreds of "stub" articles were created by a small number of editors who used PQ as their main source. PQ often converts "foreign" currency into US dollars. The problem is that although PQ is a very interesting and informative site, its content is user-generated and it is NOT considered a reliable source: there are lots of errors and some completely fictional pedigrees. If you find examples of this, you are quite entitled to blank the earnings section of the infobox until something more reliable turns up.  Tigerboy1966  08:20, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Friar's Balsam

Good start class article on one of the best non-Classic winners of his time. One of the print sources I use claims that he was "never the same" after the Guineas debacle, but his win over Minting was arguably his best performance. I have added some material and "corrected" some of the headings: Wikipedia tends to favour a light capitalisation style. I would favour "Racing Career", but "Racing career" is the preferred version. See WP:Manual of Style. Tigerboy1966  22:54, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

You must be reading my mind: I was just thinking after Noble Mission won at Goodwood the other day that Kind was due for an article! Tigerboy1966  22:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure that FB didn't run in the summer of 1888, but he did run at least once as a a four-year-old. See [2].

• I see you've also done Old Vic. I remember that at the end of 1989 there was an almighty row about the ratings for three-year-old colts. Old Vic and Zilzal were equal-first ahead of the more popular Nashwan. Unfortunately my memory doesn't count as a Reliable Source, but it might be possible to track something down. Tigerboy1966  22:21, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

You may have already seen this, but I found a mention in Porter's book of Friar's Balsam running in the Lancashire Plate before the Champion in 1888. Edwarddutton (talk) 20:26, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

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Barnstar for you

		The Original Barnstar
		for your valuable contributions to articles on horse racing. Your hard work and expertise are much appreciated.  Tigerboy1966  19:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

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Thanks for creating Kind (horse), Edwarddutton!

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Frankel

Just wondering why you removed the linking of Stage Door Johnny. I'd guessed that it was probably because the article linked to was actually about something other than the horse of that name, but when I checked I found that the article was about the horse. JH (talk page) 20:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Sadler's Wells

I think that the table is proportionate at the moment, after all, siring big race winners is SW's principal claim to fame. I think that there should be a sentence explaining the rationale for inclusion (Group One/Grade I winners). It's not as if the list is going to get much longer now. The "blue" horses obviously merit a mention, and quite a few of the black ones will probably get an article eventually: Islington and Carnegie seem like pretty obvious candidates. I'm expanding the section on his racing career as people tend to forget what a very fine racehorse he was. I need to add some references which I can do in the next day or two. Tigerboy1966  23:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

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Ways to improve 1892 Epsom Derby

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Bendigo (horse) for DYK?

Hello, Edwarddutton. Thank you for writing up this article. I have nominated it for an appearance in the DYK? section on Wikipedia's MainPage. The nomination can be found here. You may want to join the discussion there in case the reviewers have questions or requests regarding the article. Thank you. Happy editing. Cheers! --PFHLai (talk) 04:27, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

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DYK for Bendigo (horse)

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations and suggestions.

Well done on the Bendigo DYK. He had been rising to the top of the mythical "Best Horses not to have a Wikipedia article" list. I guess Harkaway is the current number one. For some reason I always assumed that Bendigo was a gelding, and must check up on the articles on his contemporaries where I may have described him as such (I have an irrational bias against any horse who defeated my idol St. Gatien).

The Cartier award winner should have articles. Frankel has the Top Older Horse and Horse of the Year awards sewn up and Camelot will get the award for best Three-year-old colt. Elusive Kate (article needs work), would be my choice for Three-year-old Filly. As for the Two-year-olds its a toss-up between Dawn Approach (new article) or Reckless Abandon for Top colt and Certify will probably get Top Filly. That leaves us with the stayer and sprinter categories. You have already created an article on Society Rock, but Moonlight Cloud Ortensia and Mayson are the other contenders in the sprint division: Moonlight Cloud is seriously overdue for an article HINT!. The stayers title won't be decided until the Melbourne Cup, but you may want to take a look at Mount Athos.  Tigerboy1966  22:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Craven Stakes

I've unlinked Craven Stakes at Potoooooooo. The original Craven was an all-aged 10 furlong race. It was one of those events like the Port Stakes, Claret Stakes, Audley End Stakes & Grand Duke Michael Stakes which were very important in their day but didn't survive. I have done an article on the Riddlesworth Stakes, which is another example.  Tigerboy1966  22:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

King Fergus

Long overdue article, well done. I am just working up a similarly overdue article on his grandson Orville. Tigerboy1966  19:35, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Great Subscription Purse

Thanks for another excellent article, and the appropriate link to Oriana. I do think that the 1784 winner should be PhoEnomenon. That seems to be the way it was usually written at the time: he was also a VERY good horse and could do with an article. Tigerboy1966  17:49, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Meteors

Just wondering about how we disambiguate the Meteors. The 2000 Guineas winner is Meteor (horse) at the moment, and thanks for the article: it's not a big problem as he is the only equine Meteor at the moment. I do feel, however, that the Meteor foaled in 1783 was probably more notable. We could go for Meteor (horse foaled in 1839) and Meteor (horse foaled in 1783), or perhaps Meteor (1839 horse) and Meteor (1783 horse). Don't expect any definitive statements from me as I am currently what is euphemistically called "full of Christmas cheer" and restricting my contributions to updating lists.  Tigerboy1966  13:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I found a discussion related to this here, from 2007, well before I joined the project, but it was inconclusive. There was a period of using post-nominal numbers- I know you have seen Glencoe I for instance. I don't think this is a very good solution as it makes the suffix look like part of the horses name which is wrong, and in any case, the disambiguating terms really should be in brackets. We had some frankly silly examples, which clearly violated the "most common name" guideline: the 1949 Derby winner, for instance was never referred to as anything but Nimbus, but on WP he was bizarrely named Nimbus V, which sounds like something Harry Potter should be riding. I wanted to change it to Nimbus (horse), but had to settle for Nimbus (GB). There could also be confusion with the numbers which are sometimes used when a horse goes to race or breed in a country where the name is taken- Nijinsky II for example. I don't actually like these numbers either, I changed Blenheim II to Blenheim (horse).

In most cases, the easiest thing is to distinguish by nationality, so we have The Bard (GB horse) and The Bard (American horse). Examples like the Meteor case (same name and nationality) are quite rare. The name Jerry was used for a St Leger winner and a Grand National winner, but I don't think there are too many others. My preferred option in these cases would be Meteor (1839 horse).

To be honest, the way in which horses are disambiguated is a bit of a mess at the moment. A simple guideline could be "Horses with the same name should be diambiguated firstly by their country of birth (or foaling if you prefer), and, if necessary by their year of birth".

Good work on Selim (horse).  Tigerboy1966  17:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

A page you started has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Bloody Buttocks, Edwarddutton!

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Great name, great horse.

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DYK for Wizard (horse)

Nyttend (talk) 00:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Orme GA

I think you should put Orme (horse) up for GA status. It can be an interesting experience, especially if you get a reviewer who knows nothing about horse racing, which has happened to me a couple of times for example Talk:Ladas (horse)/GA1. Also remember that once you nominate it can take a few weeks before the review starts. Good luck.  Tigerboy1966  01:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

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Orme and the Meteors

I would leave the disambiguation issues with Meteor until they are actually needed: if we keep an eye on things there shouldn't be any problems.

As for the Orme GA, you should get it through the process without too many problems. The key thing is to be very patient and co-operative with the reviewer. It's not that easy when you have spent weeks on an article and then you get someone asking you questions like "so what exactly is a filly?" and complaining that you have used a semi-colon instead of a comma.

Well done on the Alexander mare: I hope we get Castrel soon.  Tigerboy1966  19:54, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

James Robinson

I have posted a very basic article on James Robinson (jockey). As you know he rode many important winners in the early 1800's and there must be dozens of article which mention James, Jem or Jemmie Robinson. I'm not asking for anything major, but if you come across any articles like this I'd appreciate it if you could link them. Tigerboy1966  00:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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Targets from Timeform

Edward, when you return from the eighteenth century you might like to look at the list of potential subjects here User:Tigerboy1966#Timeform_top-rated_horses_without_an_article.  Tigerboy1966  00:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The TF ratings took a few years to settle down and there are some odd-looking ones from the 1950s. I think they strictly followed what their stopwatch told them and to hell with common sense. Princely Gift, Floribunda and The Bug were sprinters. Chanteur, Souverain and Arbar were French stayers. Windy City, Star of India, Texana and La Tendresse were 2yo champions. I'm doing Apalachee: five races and off to stud in a hurry before his rep. fell any further.  Tigerboy1966  18:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Good luck with Charlottesville. I've been working through them on the time-honoured "easy ones first" method so the remaining ones will all be tricky. I've just finished Warning who would have been done earlier if I hadn't known that he would be an absolute pig to google. I will do Never So Bold next. The toughest one will be Star of India who as far as I can see is only notable for her grossly inflated TF rating.  Tigerboy1966  20:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Well done for spotting Bering, with a TF of 136 he certainly should have been on the list. I'm trying to do Hafiz at the moment. Tigerboy1966  18:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

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Richmond

Sorry but nothing definite- even though Richmond was obviously a very important track. Obviously as two, three and four mile distances were specified, "once round" must have meant something else. Even though it closed in 1891, you can still see the outline of the course very clearly on google earth, just NW of the town centre. I'd say it was a little short of two miles, but I will keep my eye open for a reliable source. btw I was doing some preliminary work on Filho da Puta's son Birmingham (horse), who ran on some very obscure and now-forgotten courses. Tigerboy1966  22:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Theodore

Just to alert you. I am on a run of St Leger winners at the moment and have just started an article on Theodore. As he was Blacklock's younger brother I thought you might have had your eye on him, and thought I should let you know so we don't duplicate. Tigerboy1966  18:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Cheltenham 2013

Excellent work on Young Giantess, she pops up in so many pedigrees and I have to confess that I knew nothing about her. Anyway I have taken a break from St Leger winners to do some prep for Cheltenham. I see you have already done Bobs Worth and I have done Silviniaco Conti, Zarkandar and Sir Des Champs (unfinished). Sod's law will no doubt ensure that previously unconsidered outsiders win both the Champion Hurdle and the Gold Cup.  Tigerboy1966  17:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Simonsig

Harrias ^talk 08:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

A page you started has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Parasol (horse), Edwarddutton!

Wikipedia editor Barney the barney barney just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

I like it. A sports biography that's not of a current nth tier footballer. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

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Orme

Hi Edward, I began the Good Article review for Orme (horse) today. Thanks for your work on this one, and I'm sorry it this waited so long in queues. It appears to me at first pass to be a strong article, but there's a few things I'd like your thoughts on before going further in the review. Drop by the review page when you get a chance. Cheers! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Good Article Barnstar
		For your contributions to bring Orme (horse) to Good Article status. Thanks, and keep up the good work! -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Was this your first GA? Sorry again for the long wait; unfortunately, sports and recreation articles tend to have the longest queue (lots of nominators, few reviewers). I hope it won't discourage you from nominating more in the future, though--this was quality work! -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Terrific! I hope it'll be the first of many. Just at a glance, some others you've worked on like Ormonde (horse) look ready to go, too; don't be shy about making multiple nominations if you feel they're ready. =) -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Orme

Well done. Those little green + signs take a lot of work, but getting them feels good, doesn't it! Orme now in the top half a percent of horse racing articles. See Category:Horse racing articles by quality.  Tigerboy1966  06:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

GA nomination for Wizard (horse)

Hi, I've started to review your GA nomination for Wizard (horse). I have only done a couple of GA reviews - DYK is where I usually hang out, so please bear with me if I make any mistakes! I have done some very minor copy editing, but please feel free to change anything I may have got wrong! Could you have a quick look at the DAB link for Cripple in the section 'Stud career', please? Because of my inexperience I will ask someone with more knowledge of GA reviews to double check before I finalise the review. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Eclipse painting

I don't KNOW the answer, but here are my thoughts (which you have probably already had). The original was probably this [3]: Stubbs would have painted the horse from life and filled in the background(s) later. The best known version is certainly the one with a rubbing house in the background. Stubbs favoured this type of location, as we can see in the famous painting of Hambletonian. One thing I can say is that the main image on the Eclipse page is a pretty poor print based on the rubbing house picture: all the energy has been washed out and Eclipse looks half asleep. The "horse first, background later" approach explains some of the oddities of scale in racing pictures, and seems to have continued well into the nineteenth century: Shotover looks about 20 hands high in her picture.

Thanks for the barnstar. I am cutting back on the early history for a while as the hathi trust site has recently been crashing my favoured browser. May be it's just as well as this weekend will be a very busy one: 1000g, 2000g, K. Derby etc. Tigerboy1966  07:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Good Article Barnstar
		For your contributions to bring Wizard (horse) to Good Article status. Thanks, and keep up the good work! -- SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC) Two in two days! Nice work! -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:24, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Seabreeze (horse)

Allen3 ^talk 00:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Squirrel (horse)

The DYK project (nominate) 18:19, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Amphion

Excellent job. Once again you have picked out a "forgotten great" who didn't win a classic but was better than 80% of those that did. I would have been tempted to say, "what the heck, he was obviously sired by Rosebery", but I respect your more cautious approach. Rosebery would be a very interesting topic: he won the "Autumn Double", a feat only replicated by Foxhall and Plaisanterie so he is in rarified company. Tigerboy1966  13:46, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

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Estimate

Dammit Ed, I had an identical article ready to go, but you beat me to it. I've added the pedigree.  Tigerboy1966  15:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for linking her in the Sagaro Stakes article - I took her out of the redlinks but for some inexplicable reason omitted to link her in the article itself! --Bcp67 (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Blacklock GA

Good luck with this. I think that he ran unnamed as "the Whitelock colt" in his first two seasons. If this is correct I think you ought to explain it and mention when he first became known as Blacklock. Sorry I don't have the info to hand. Good work on Walton btw. Seems odd that it took him and Orville until they were six-year-olds to really bump heads, and when they did so for the first time the race descended into farce.  Tigerboy1966  21:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Blacklock (horse)

The article Blacklock (horse) you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Blacklock (horse) for things which need to be addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:29, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

August 2013

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Kind (horse) may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "[]"s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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