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Welcome!

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Welcome!

Hello, Rayiran, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to ask me on my talk page or place {{Help me}} on this page and someone will drop by to help. Again, welcome! AnupamTalk 20:06, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

March 2023

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Information icon Hello, I'm Sid95Q. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Sikhism in Iran have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Sid95Q (talk) 00:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Warning icon Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove content, templates, or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did with this edit to Sikhs, you may be blocked from editing. Materialscientist (talk) 21:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stop icon You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Sikhism. -- dsprc [talk] 08:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stop icon You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by inserting unpublished information or your personal analysis into an article, as you did at Religion in Iran. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked for sockpuppetry

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Wikipedia's technical logs indicate that this user account has been or may be used abusively per the evidence presented at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Divinemomentever. It has been blocked indefinitely from editing to prevent abuse.
Note that multiple accounts are allowed, but not for illegitimate reasons, and any contributions made while evading blocks or bans may be reverted or deleted.
If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should review the guide to appealing blocks, and then appeal your block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|Your reason here ~~~~}}. Note that anything you post in your unblock request will be public, so you may alternatively use the Unblock Ticket Request System to submit an appeal if it contains information that must be private.
Administrators: Checkusers have access to confidential system logs not accessible by the public or by administrators due to the Wikimedia Foundation's privacy policy. You must not loosen or remove this block, or issue an IP block exemption, without consulting with a checkuser or the Arbitration Committee. Administrators who undo checkuser blocks without permission from a checkuser or the Arbitration Committee may be summarily desysopped.
-- RoySmith (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Divinemomentever (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Your reason here I had asked to change my previous username Rayiran to be changed (to divinemomentever) and then I created a new one while waiting to have the username changed. I absolutely was not aware that I should not have created multiple accounts and I am deeply sorry. I had contributed positively to "religion in Iraq". Furthermore, I did not know about the warnings I had received on my page and I know that whenever I should check my page for any message or comment and act upon to resolve it. I have been only active for less than 2 weeks and I got blocked. I know the reason now, so I hope I get a new chance. Thanks Divinemomentever (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accept reason:

I believe that you merit another chance. Good luck. Courtesy ping to RoySmith. 331dot (talk) 18:31, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note to any admin reviewing this unblock request, please see my comment at Special:Diff/1147604516. While I marked this as a checkuser block, I authorize any admin to unblock if you are convinced this user can be a productive member of the community. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for your kindness. I was absolutely unaware about the messages and warnings and then unfortunately I asked to change the username for security reasons and without waiting unfortunately made another one. I know the rules now and even before getting blocked I had 2 positive changes which are still valid. I hope I get a chance again. Divinemomentever (talk) 14:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you understand what the problems were with your edits? 331dot (talk) 08:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Yes, I do. Unfortunately, I wasn’t aware of the process nor the messages I was getting. I will pay attention to both the process and messages. Though I think it’s probably too late as my status is blocked. I contributed positively to Sikhism and religion in Iraq and still my edited text is there. For example I added Sikhism as one of religions with some relation with Iraq because of Guru Nanak ji shrine there. However, I was reckless on religion in Iran where I wanted to edit Sikhism in Iran and didn’t pay attention to my warning messages. It was my first time here so really no real understanding. But anyway, I think I will remain for the rest of time. So hopefully other users will be given more time then me. For me, it feels like, I got a court eviction notice! Maybe you can help as my kind friend. But overall my voice is absent now. Divinemomentever (talk) 18:28, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot! Very kind of you. I hope I can become a committed and reliable member of the Wikipedia family. Divinemomentever (talk) 18:18, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 2023

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Information icon Please do not add or change content, as you did at Indian diaspora, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. - Arjayay (talk) 16:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thanks for your kind note. I will follow the rules and my apologies for putting info without citation. T Divinemomentever (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

October 2023

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Information icon Hi Divinemomentever! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor at Punjab that may not have been. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on Wikipedia—it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as typo corrections or reverting obvious vandalism. Any edit that changes the meaning of an article is not a minor edit, even if it only concerns a single word. Please see Help:Minor edit for more information. Thank you. RegentsPark (comment) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey! Thanks a lot for your kind message. Yes, sorry, I am still new to editing and I try to follow your advice in future. Thanks a lot for your constructive point. Divinemomentever (talk) 15:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources

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Hi Divinemomentever, I noticed that you've been adding a lot of claims sourced to sikhiwiki.org. As explained at WP:UGC, most wikis are not reliable sources because they're entirely user generated. I checked the history of this article, for example, and it was written by some random person with the username "Zahratallah". A few wikis are considered reliable sources, but they're generally closed wikis (meaning that not everyone can edit them) and their authors/editors are reputable experts. This does not appear to be the case with sikhiwiki.org. Woodroar (talk) 16:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Thanks for your kind message. I also looked but it is one of the Sikh sects and attested in the Wikipedia as well. I will explore it more though since you kindly pointed out this. Divinemomentever (talk) 16:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi again. I saw that you switched the source at Baháʼí Faith to slife.org. As it says at the bottom of the page, "Adapted from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". That page is just an old version of our article Sects of Sikhism. As an open wiki, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, either, nor are any sources that simply republish its contents.
I suggest reading through Wikipedia:Reliable sources in full. It goes into what is and isn't considered a reliable source on Wikipedia, and why only sourcing reputable sources is important. Woodroar (talk) 17:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot. I didn’t pay attention. Thanks for your kind suggestion. 😊 Divinemomentever (talk) 17:29, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the content you added was copied from another website, and thus was a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. Please don't add copyright material to Wikipedia. SikhWiki is not compatibly licensed. — Diannaa (talk) 16:35, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your commment! 💐🌹🙏 Divinemomentever (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

January 2024

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Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Sikhism in Canada. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. No, an off the cuff comment by one person who happens to be a politician does not warrant mention, particularly in the lead, and that is certainly not a WP:MINOR edit Meters (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And it certainly isn't the Government of Canada behind that suggestion. Meters (talk) 20:17, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, yeah, an important Canadian official suggested so. Thanks Divinemomentever (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for your guidance. Divinemomentever (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction to contentious topics

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You have recently edited a page related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, a topic designated as contentious. This is a brief introduction to contentious topics and does not imply that there are any issues with your editing.

A special set of rules applies to certain topic areas, which are referred to as contentious topics. These are specially designated topics that tend to attract more persistent disruptive editing than the rest of the project and have been designated as contentious topics by the Arbitration Committee. When editing a contentious topic, Wikipedia’s norms and policies are more strictly enforced, and Wikipedia administrators have special powers in order to reduce disruption to the project.

Within contentious topics, editors should edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and:

  • adhere to the purposes of Wikipedia;
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  • follow editorial and behavioural best practice;
  • comply with any page restrictions in force within the area of conflict; and
  • refrain from gaming the system.

Editors are advised to err on the side of caution if unsure whether making a particular edit is consistent with these expectations. If you have any questions about contentious topics procedures you may ask them at the arbitration clerks' noticeboard or you may learn more about this contentious topic here. You may also choose to note which contentious topics you know about by using the {{Ctopics/aware}} template.

— DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 21:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 2024

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Information icon Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to Hinduism, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Hinduism. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey! Thanks a lot for informing me. I’ll definitely pay more attention to rules from now on. I just wanted to bring the content more in line with newest research available. Thanks a lot Divinemomentever (talk) 13:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that you've added some links pointing to disambiguation pages. Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)

Sikhs
added links pointing to Dutch, English, French, Italian and Spanish

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, --DPL bot (talk) 17:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Buddhism in the Middle East, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Khorasan.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 17:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey! Thanks for pointing out. Khorasan per Al-Biruni’s account. It was a quoted word. Divinemomentever (talk) 13:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Minor edits

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Hello, I noticed you mark all of your edits as "minor". Please review Help:Minor edit as "the minor edit box signifies that only superficial differences exist between the current and previous versions". Most of your edits are not minor. Thank you! Masterhatch (talk) 12:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summaries

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I noticed you rarely use edit summaries. Most edits should have edit summaries. Please review Help:Edit summary for more info. Thanks! Masterhatch (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot Divinemomentever (talk) 16:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Lute, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Indian.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 19:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 2024

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Information icon Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to The Buddha, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Warning icon Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did at Anti-Hindu sentiment, you may be blocked from editing. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DME, I think you better take a break. Don't double down by reverting; there's already enough to block you. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, brother, I dug my own grave! lol Divinemomentever (talk) 18:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, thanks. Divinemomentever (talk) 18:04, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I didn’t realize a part was problematic. Thanks for removing that part. Divinemomentever (talk) 18:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at The Buddha. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And take notice of WP:ROPE... Take care, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cool down brother. Indian subcontinent is a legit term. Divinemomentever (talk) 07:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at WP consensus, but there was nothing about Buddha. Where can I find this so called changeable consensus about subcontinent being taboo? Look at Sikhism. It is stated, in the “Indian subcontinent”. So are you telling me you have become the body of consensus or I am lost in your guidance? Divinemomentever (talk) 07:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop your disruptive editing.

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at The Buddha, you may be blocked from editing. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Userpage

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You were blocked two years ago; while you were unblocked, your userpage still said you were blocked. Quite confusing. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:45, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Better? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed! That made me wonder whether I should ask the admin to check it, so it doesn’t show such thing on my page! I mean I am not blocked now for sure. Thanks Divinemomentever (talk) 12:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Yeah, I was novice at the time. By the way, how can I participate in india vs South Asia controversy talk? It seems I couldn’t post anything there. Also, do you think it’s okay to say Confucius was Chinese? Or it is more neutral to say East Asian? Interestingly, senior editors don’t let to change Chinese to East Asian as one did. On the other hand, it is so easy to shift India to South Asia. I feel there is a political support for China against India! It smacks of racism in this. Nothing personal but I mean the overall (apparently politically charged) community seems okay to accept Chinese but not Indian. It has something to do with racism and Chinese politicking. Divinemomentever (talk) 09:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • how can I participate in india vs South Asia controversy talk - I don't know, you should be able to edit there. Maybe ask an administrator?
  • Historically, China has much more been an 'unity'; when calling Confucius "Chinese," it's quite obvious what's being meant. But India, in contrast, has a very rich and diverse history; the term itself is loaded, given the Hindutva-nationalism. Nepalese nationalists insist that the Buddha was Nepalese... We could also argue that he was a Sakya - et cetera.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:08, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. I get your point to some extent; though still I found such reasoning smacking of racism or bias towards India. Because India was diverse and democratic, we should punish it by erasing its name, but no one can touch China since it was ruled by despots historically? Hindutva is political and new phenomenon, more akin to Hindu renaissance. We can’t say it’s bad, “mind you, Renaissance in Europe wasn’t good in all aspects either since Church and state as one body was the biggest supporter of renaissance through monetary and other means). with this logic, we should start calling Indian Ocean, south Asian in order to steer clear of hindutva? I see a clear Chinese hand in this, mixed with racism. I don’t mean anything personal. But it just seems odd that the elder civilization, Indian one, has to be renamed in order to convey a political message against hindutva? All this, while giving room for East Asian instead of Chinese is frowned upon! It’s double-standard and only can happen when there is racism and political intent behind it.
in reality, they try to challenge India but giving spielraum and freiheit to China! Divinemomentever (talk) 10:30, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know but I feel it’s not fair to have south Asian instead of Indian. Divinemomentever (talk) 11:42, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool down, will you? Other editors would be reporting you now for personal attacks. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing personal. I am sorry if I sounded aggressive. I respect you and have compassion for you. Divinemomentever (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thank you for your sincerity and directness. I am sincere too. I just opened a discussion page on Hinduphobic and anti-Indian elements. I would be happy if you share your idea there and invite others to come and comment there as I am new to this. I don’t know if others can see my page to come and discuss? Can you help me please?Divinemomentever (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am novice and new, so forgive me if I act out of naivety. I really like your professionalism and hole I become someone like you. Enjoyed your page and the links there to different topics on my faith Buddhism and Hinduism. In sikkim, we follow both. Danke and thanyavad. Divinemomentever (talk) 12:16, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, probably; didn't take it personal indeed. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now that we're editing your pages: how about an auto-archive? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I liked the way you brought some photos to my user page. Thanks for that. I’m still novice in Wikipedia )) Divinemomentever (talk) 10:32, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Indian and Hindupobic propaganda

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Arbitrary header #1

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It is the sad truth that there exist Hinduphobia and anti-Indian elements in societies. Let’s address Hinduphobia since Hindus are the new Jews. We have the responsibility to stop hate crimes against Hindus and Indians ranging from denying the ancient indigenous roots of name “India”, equivalent of Sindhu, literally the land of rivers, to attacking caste system which is an important aspect of Hindu and Buddhist history in India or overgeneralizing it as if it were the default rule. Instead of celebrating Indian civilization, there are Hinduphobic elements trying to erase Indian identity by insisting on using the so-called “South Asia” term instead of, and not along with, India. The world needs to become conscious of the danger of Hinduphobia since not only it can lead to genocide against Hindus in places like Afghanistan and Bangladesh and even the Middle-East, but it is on its own a veiled cultural genocide against Indianness and Hindus, trying to replace it with something else. Divinemomentever (talk) 12:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, at least you're plain and outspoken. I doubt it, though, if "India" is an indigenous name. And "anti-semitism" may be an offensive term for still other parties; I think you might try to be a little carefull with that term.
Regarding cultural genocide against Indianness, this "Indianness" is itself an attack on the enormous diversity of Indian culture and religion. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure Joshua, india is the Greek equivalent of Indus which itself derives from Sindhu, literally river. The name comes from many rivers of north India, making it the land of rivers, as what ancient Persians also acknowledge in translating sapta Sindhu to Hapta Hindus.
Well, I feel there is some form of hinduphobia in the sense that diversity of India and Hindus does not mean loss of identity of Indians and Hindus! I still see an issue when Indian Buddha is a taboo, while Chinese Confucius is readily accepted. If Tamil Nadu has nothing to do with Buddha, likewise northwestern China has nothing to do with Confucius. I simply feel it is not fine to show less sympathy to india compared to China when the very name of China is an Indian name! Divinemomentever (talk) 14:08, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My dear Joshua and my friend, cultural genocide begins with erasing history of a culture. The most important feature of a culture is preserved in the words, both exogenous and indigenous. By separating and removing India from Buddhism and Hinduism, Hindus for sure will gradually lose their culture as it is directly rooted in the land of India. Even Buddhism loses almost every sense of it as lord Buddha did not talk in vacuum but in conversation with Hindus and he was a Hindu as well. If we were find it objectionable to call Confucius an East Asian master, why we should accept a south Asian Buddha? What is South Asia? It has no boundaries. Besides, if we want to be precise, there was no China in current form in Confucius time. Which China do we talk about? Mongolia, Tibet, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Beijing, Nanjing, or Xinkiang?? Divinemomentever (talk) 14:30, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding cultural genocide begins with erasing history of a culture in relation to lord Buddha did not talk in vacuum but in conversation with Hindus and he was a Hindu as well, I'm afraid this illustrates the erasing of Indian history by prioritising 'Indianness'. You'll probably disagree with me, but the Buddha was not a Hindu; 'Hinduism' didn't even exist at that time, and the Buddha lived in a region which was outside "Aryavarta, the heartland of Brahmanical orthodoxy. The succes of Buddhism was one of the factors in the development of the Hindu synthesis. "Indianness" is a construct, the search for a shared identity to bridge the differences in Indian culture and society. Unfortunately, it is based on a Brahmanical worldview, disregarding differences, and only enlarging the faultlines in Indian society. So, what's the real need for this "Indianness"? Think about it, reflect on it: what are the emotions beyond this? And don't forget that India gave yoga and meditation to the world. Take me as an example: fascinated by it, because India's heritage gave me a framework with which I could understand one of my most important experiences, the insight that "'I' does not exist." Maybe not a big deal (or incomprehensible) for most people, but for me people like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadattah give me a sense of recognition. That's most valuable, to me. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:50, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, my friend, I am happy that there is something from this land that was and hopefully is good enough for you to like and follow. I do not really claim that yoga or Buddhism is “Indian”, in the sense of limitation of geography. I like to see that we are least give credit to those who tried hard to bring them about in the first instance.
With regard to this, “You'll probably disagree with me, but the Buddha was not a Hindu; 'Hinduism' didn't even exist at that time, and the Buddha lived in a region which was outside "Aryavarta, the heartland of Brahmanical orthodoxy”, I find it very much out of anachronism. In fact, Buddhism itself does not exist as an independent religion, but an aspect of Hinduism, to be more precise.
it’s easy to see since Hinduism means religious-philosophical notion born in India. Unfortunately, it is a common error that some scholars mistake Hinduism with other types of western religions. Did you know that one can be atheist and still be Hindu? One can be a Buddhist and still be a Hindu? Some Hindus, similar to the Buddha, did not attest the vedas or rituals. It is fine. Hinduism is about the pluralism. No one is less hindu if he rejected vedas or if he rejected Bhagavad Gita. So in the Indian context, lord Buddha is not technically outside of Hindu realm, even if his followers do not see the point.
just as Hinduism is a super fluid context that edges non-existent as you rightly point out, Indianness follows the same. Indians do not share the same language, even the same tribe or ethnicity, but this “fluid, thereby apparent non-existing” identity is exactly what Indianness is about.
so in a level, India and Indianness do not exist, consider the example of Maya, but in practical level, they do exist. So this fluid, almost non existent identity is self-destructive and self-reinforcing. Unfortunately, it can go toward self-destruction when a special aspect of Indianness goes negated, for example brahmanical or Vedic Hinduism. So as I pointed out, for me and most of Indians, Buddhism is part of Hinduism as lord Buddha did indeed live and got enlightened in India and was part of sramana movement which Hinduism was its roots. Unfortunately, this tendency to say that Hinduism is a construct made by foreigners does not see the fluid identity of Hinduism. Do you know that there were some years before lord Buddha, another enlightened being, lord mahavira, who brought forth the today’s Jainism? This very ground out of which Buddhism Jainism and others are gushed out is Hinduism and Indianness. Divinemomentever (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Joshua, by the way, Molly fox also supported my point that “south Asian” Buddha is utterly unnatural.
with regard to “ “Hinduism' didn't even exist at that time, and the Buddha lived in a region which was outside "Aryavarta, the heartland of Brahmanical orthodoxy. The succes of Buddhism was one of the factors in the development of the Hindu synthesis. " I should say these are your own assumptions. You were not there at the time of Buddha. I doubt you would accept any historical evidence either. I think you may be confusing Arya Samaj movement in British era with “pure Hinduism”. I don’t have time to write the whole thing but check out Arya samaj, you would see assertions similar to yours, though they wanted to get back to that so called brahmanical era. For them brahmanical way was the correct way. But man, Hinduism cannot be defined with western methodology. If Hinduism did not exist, then how can Buddhism exist? For Hindus Buddhists are Hinduism stripped for export. It is one branch of Hinduism or dharma. Just check out “dharma” and “dharmic religions”. I think you may need to review all these in order to get a concise idea of what Buddhism and Hinduism are.
Hinduism has the following components: vedas; dharma; reincarnation; Maya; moksha (nirvana); Karma. Any religion that is founded on reaction to or acceptance of any one of these components is a branch of Hinduism.
I think you would better read about these concepts to see Hinduism is truly the oldest religion. Furthermore, evolution of religion is a necessary thing and Hinduism is not based on faith that contradicts this. Hinduism is a Methodology. You may need to read this as well, otherwise you may confuse Indian religion with abrahamic religion easily. Abrahamic religions which all of them are new compared to Hinduism by at least 2000 years, compared to vedas, have evolved to the text that they are not recognizable to the early followers. So my friend, voila, you have a lot to read. Remember, not knowing Sanskrit doesn’t help since I saw you did not know Sanskrit, even the word “Sindhu”, from which Indus and india derived from where not known to you. It’s like trying to read about Greek history but not knowing Greek. I suggest you to start working on your Sanskrit, if you already know a bit, or just start learning it. Without knowing Sanskrit, even Pali which is derived from Sanskrit would be hard to learn for Buddhism. So I am happy that you follow some Indian knowledge such as yoga. But my kind recommendation is that you would render your debt to Indian thought better by at least trying to work on those points I made here.
just as lord Buddha said, respecting parents are a greater good than gods, talking about devas is a whole 3-4 books that I can’t here do a service to such idea, I recommend you to work on those points as part of your respect to the knowledge provided to you by people from India. Nothing more I can add here. Divinemomentever (talk) 06:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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I wasn't there at the time? How do you know? Maybe I'm an incarnation of one of the Buddha's close followers... And no, these are not my "own assumptions"; it's what I learned from scholarly sources. For scholars, "Hinduism" is a synthesis of the Brahmanical tradition and non-Vedic traditions; this synthesis started to develop around the beginning of the common era. The Vedic religion is much older, but this synthesis is what defines "Hinduism." It's not a coincidence that the phrase "Vaidika dharma" oldest attestation is at ca. 400 CE, when this synthesis had started to take shape. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Haha that was a clever response. But I beg to differ with “Hinduism" is a synthesis of the Brahmanical tradition and non-Vedic traditions” since you may inappropriately define Hinduism with Vedic only or folk only understandings.
Hinduism has those components I told you earlier. I suggest you to look into them separately. Brahmanical tradition is part of Hinduism. If those scholars were of the opinion you say, then there should have been several religions, not one Hinduism at least. So, those scholars you like to support are the fringe elements, not mainstream, I’m afraid.
I suggest you to read rig Veda and Bhagavad Gita. I feel maybe these sources can help you see the point.
I suggest you to work on your Sanskrit. Since without reading the texts yourself, some fringe scholars’ opinions may become a hurdle to your spiritual progress. Just as this has made you believe that Hinduism has not brahmanism in its roots.
in a sense, you can say Hinduism is not this, since Indian religion is not the western idea of religion. I recommend you to read about differences between dharmic religion and abrahamic religions. It is natural that you keep having an abrahamic idea of Hinduism and Buddhism. However, such abrahamic idea may harm your understanding of proper Buddhism, let alone much older and complex Hinduism.
westerners may understand the gist of Buddhism if they show willingness to detach themselves from the fetters of abrahamic ideology. Otherwise, they develop a myopic and abrahamic view of Buddhism.
With regard to Hinduism,I’m afraid you won’t be able to understand it unless you make an effort to learn Sanskrit and participate in Hindu way of life.
As I mentioned earlier, Hinduism is the mother of all other religions human beings could develop. It is so rich that a non initiated will easily get lost in her way to the basics of Hinduism. Even in Buddhism, which hopefully something you put time for, without proper understanding of what the Buddha was saying in ancient India and among his Hindu family and friends, you probably develop an abrahamic view of Buddhism which is unfit to survive, though from Hindu point of view is fine.
Knowing Buddhism without Hinduism is like being a Christian without reading the Old Testament and I would say it’s worse than the latter.
I feel someone who doesn’t still know that Indian religions are not based on faith, but practice, has missed the point completely.
I suggest you to work on your Sanskrit and Pali, and read texts yourself. Don’t rely on some fringe scholars in order to learn about Hinduism and Buddhism. Otherwise, one may end up doing disservice to Indian religions that supposedly guided her for a while. Divinemomentever (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I don't think that scholars like Bronkhorst, Samuel or Hiltebeitel ate "fringe." But, maybe, would you have some titles of books you's recommand to read, to get to know more about your point of view? Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:03, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t mean fringe as fringe fringe, but yeah, it’s a fact that because of interaction between Hinduism or being Indian and colonialism, different ideas creeped into the definition of Hinduism. I even pointed out the Arya Samaj movement which came up in the British India tried to cleanse Hinduism of caste, idolatry, and other things that sounded bad to Christian British officers.
Howeved, a counter movement, the Sanatana Dharma rose up and defended everything Hinduism is. A Hindu can worship tree, and we Hindus consider him a perfect Hindu. A Hindu can be Carvaka (a strong atheist ideology of Hinduism) and we consider him proper Hindu.
You know the western definition of religion for Indian religions, is truly a disservice to these religions and can confuse people since they want to see a structure and such structure is anti Indian in nature.
With regard to “ scholars like Bronkhorst, Samuel or Hiltebeitel ate "fringe." “I would say it’s like wanting to know a movie and asking someone to describe it! Someone who wants to know Hinduism, has to first make an effort to read original Hindu texts. After this, she may like to add on by reading other books. Even in your Buddhist practice, skipping Buddhist texts to read others who wrote about Buddhism does not make one familiar with Buddhism, let alone a Buddhist.
I suggest you to read Bhagavad Gita, an important Hindu text. It’s not a super voluminous book but it has important elements of not only Hinduism but all Indian thoughts, including Buddhism.
Only that I feel youd better read it while knowing the Hindu and Buddhist understanding of devas. Since reading vedas for westerners may sound too time consuming and hard, I feel it may be impossible to truly understand Hinduism for them.
Buddhism as I said is Hinduism in a nutshell ready to export. You have to deal with much fewer texts. It is a Hindu way of life that lord Buddha founded. Hindu not in the sense of those fringe scholars define, but in proper Indian context.
it is hard though to grasp Hinduism without Sanskrit. Even Buddhism without knowing Pali would be kinda confusing. I mean one may become Buddhist, but since she doesn’t live in a Buddhist or Hindu country nor born there, honestly understanding Buddhism the way Buddhists in Asia understand would be out of reach.
when it comes to Hinduism, since this religion survived both Muslim invasion as well as British colonialism, so you are really dealing with the most persistent religion out there, a real behemoth.
my last point is that whatever you want to learn, whether Buddhism or Hinduism, or even Christianity, it is always the right way to begin with the original texts. When someone reads a book about another book, she is dealing with another author and his ideas and biases and prejudices.
I suggest you not to waste your time reading “books about Buddhism and Hinduism”. Instead, I suggest you to make an effort and read original Hindu and Buddhist texts. I know it’s hard and nowadays everyone wants the shortcut, but truly that kind of Buddhism and Hinduism that comes from reading “books about other books on original texts” will make one unfit to communicate and understand Hindus and Buddhists.
after hopefully you learned Sanskrit and Pali and read som Hindu or Buddhist texts, then I suggest you to shift for some months at least to one of countries that Buddhists and Hindus live. Only then, you may slowly see the real movie! Mind you, Hinduism and Buddhism are about practices, and not faith or beliefs. Only after one lived for sometime in such countries, and experience the practices and customs inherent to Hinduism and Buddhism, one at last will understand these religions, be in it in China or India or somewhere else.
I’m sure after you’ve done this, then when you hear someone says Hinduism does not exist, or Buddhism is about this or that, you would feel she is out of sync with what other Hindus and Buddhists think and do. Even Buddhists in Thailand or China would feel insulted if they hear that Hinduism does not exist as they know who they are. Divinemomentever (talk) 11:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Control copyright icon Hello Divinemomentever! Your additions to Anti-Hindu sentiment have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the public domain or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a suitably free and compatible copyright license. (To request such a release, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, it's important to understand and adhere to guidelines about using information from sources to prevent copyright and plagiarism issues. Here are the key points:

It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices. Persistent failure to comply may result in being blocked from editing. If you have any questions or need further clarification, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 13:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. Sure, I’ll check it again to verify it. Divinemomentever (talk) 14:01, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you type, "paraphrasing tool" on google, you can use a paraphrasing tool which shows up in the search results to avoid Copyvios.-AlBaluchi1 (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot! I’ll make use of it next time. 🙏🙏 Divinemomentever (talk) 16:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
May I ask you a favor to look into the consensus on Indian subcontinent. Unfortunately, even when I put both Indian subcontinent and South Asia for the life of lord Buddha, some users abuse their power to revert it to “only South Asia” as if the Indian subcontinent does not exist. Interestingly, in many Wikipedia pages, from Sikhism to China, the term Indian subcontinent is used and part of almost every usage. In fact, it is a neutral geophysical term. However, it seems a band of users, in particular user:Joshua Jonathan, are trying to remove it. If this continues, I fear Wikipedia would be accused of anachronism, since Indian religions and culture then have to be replaced with south Asian religions which is truly unnatural and unknown. This may lead to abuse in Wikipedia with regard to the Indian Ocean, I’m afraid. I feel it is our responsibility to stop this attempt to erase and empty a culture, akin to cultural genocide and anachronism. Regards Divinemomentever (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Buddhism, Confuciusianiam, and Daoism are and are not not part of Hinduism

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Some scholars like to divide Hinduism into many smaller, more organized and presentable parts. However, it is not the indigenous method Hindus and Indians used to and still see Indian religion. Hinduism cannot be defined with western methodology. For Hindus, Buddhists and even daoists are following Sanatana dharma or Hinduism. Since, contrary to western logic, A and 'not A is one of the four Indian logical possibilities. So Hinduism and not Hinduism is one of the possibilities. Therefore, Buddhism, for example, is both an independent religion and also part of Hinduism. In order to explain it better, let’s see what are the main components (similar to chemical table of elements) of Hinduism: vedas; dharma; reincarnation; Maya; moksha (nirvana); Karma. Any religion that is founded on reaction to or acceptance of any one of these components is a branch of Hinduism and Hinduism proper. All in all, it is appropriate to consider Indian ideas and religions from Indian point of view first, before exploring exogenous ideas about Indian religions. Divinemomentever (talk) 08:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

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Information icon Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your love and devotion for India, Indian culture and Indian religions. Divinemomentever (talk) 10:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 2024 (2)

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Stop icon with clock
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 week for edit warring and violating the three-revert rule, as you did at The Buddha. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.
During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Bbb23 (talk) 12:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I love Wikipedia and honestly I was unjustly attacked and abused by user: Joshua Jonathan, how can I report him? Divinemomentever (talk) 13:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any more personal attacks, and I will revoke your access to this page.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I appreciate that I was given an important opportunity to contribute in future to Wikipedia as I have been contributing in a lot of different topics. Regards Divinemomentever (talk) 13:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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