User talk:רמרום

Welcome

Hi רמרום!

I noticed your contributions and wanted to welcome you to the Wikipedia community. I hope you like it here and decide to stay.

For basic advice on editing: The Teahouse and this page may be helpful. And feel free to ask me for advice as I've been around since the dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Note that there are special rules for subjects related to the Israel-Arab conflict, in order to slow down conflicts and prevent hit-and-run disruption. That means you can't edit directly on that subject until you have more seniority. Relevant examples are anything to do with Zionist settlement in Palestine or aspects of the history of villages that involve Arab-Zionist/Israeli interaction. However, Ottoman and earlier history is usually ok. You can always suggest edits on article talk pages (with sources) and someone else will insert them into the article or start a discussion.

Cheers, Zero^talk 06:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks!

What is considered "seniority" for thato? Specifically, I am eager to contribute towards improving the information regarding Ottoman-era history and historical geography (primarily 16-19th century), are these considered OK for Palestinian villages?

רמרום (talk) 06:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The gory details are here. Basically you need 30 days from registering and 500 edits (which include edits to talk pages and the size of the edit doesn't matter). "Ottoman-era history and historical geography (primarily 16-19th century)" should be perfectly fine if you avoid Zionism. In cases where the story is incomplete without the Zionist element, it is always ok to ask on the article talk page for someone to perform an edit on your behalf. If it has a good source as your edits have all had so far, it is pretty sure to be accepted. A pain, I know, but things were much more chaotic around here before this rule was introduced. Previously even the best edits could be removed by someone not even logged in. Zero^talk 12:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Two bits of policy you should know: (1) You are free to remain anonymous or not as you please. According to our rules, nobody is allowed to expose your real identity unless you expose it yourself (even if you give very strong hints!). (2) All sources must be published, so something still in preprint form or not written yet is not allowed. An exception is that formal works available in places like personal web pages and academia.org are usually accepted if their author is an acknowledged subject-area expert. The boundary is not precisely defined. Zero^talk 12:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, thank you for the explanations! What is the policy about published works which are paywalled but have an Open Access version available online in institutional repositories? Could we link to the Open Access copy of the published work, on researchgate or academia.edu ? רמרום (talk) 17:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no rule against paywalled sources. If there is a free version available you can link to that, or link to both. Unfortunately (one of my pet hates) we don't have any consistency for citation style except for a vague rule to be consistent within each article. One possible formula for journal articles is
{{cite journal | author=AUTHOR | title=TITLE | journal=JOURNAL | volume=VOLUME | year=YEAR | pages=PAGE-PAGE | doi=DOI | url=URL}}
where URL is the address of a free version. The system will set TITLE as a hyperlink to URL, and DOI as a doi hyperlink, so then both versions are referenced. Since researchgate and academia.org have no quality control and are to some extent predatory, sources appearing only there are challenged sometimes. Usually having an author who is an acknowledged expert is enough to meet the challenge, but having a supporting link to a journal/book version is even better. Zero^talk 03:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your additions

Hi, I see that you are adding the same bit to several articles: "During the 16th and 17th centuries, XX belonged to the Turabay Emirate (1517-1683), which encompassed the Jezreel Valley, Mount Carmel, Beit She'an Valley, northern Samaria, Ramot Menashe, the northern part of the Sharon plain ."

Firstly, please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank). This policy came after extensive debate.

I note that most (nearly all) of the places you have added this info to, (sourced to Marom's "Lajjun"-article) are not mentioned in that article. Also: it does not mention Samaria. And to mention Ramot Menashe in connection with 16th and 17th century history, seems incongruous; to say the least.

Marom writes: The Lajjun archaeological complex (Palestine Grid 1675/2205) is situated on several low-lying hills (c. 175 m above sea level) along the meeting zone of the Marj ibn ‘Amir (mod. Jezreel Valley) and Bilad al-Ruha (mod. Ramot Menashe).

"Bilad al-Ruha" is modern Manasseh Hills (in Hebrew: "Ramot Menashe"), and "Marj ibn ‘Amir" is modern Jezreel Valley. So linking to the 20th century kibbutz Ramot Menashe seems to me to be wrong?

I suggest you instead write that XX "belonged to the Turabay Emirate (1517-1683), which encompassed the intersection of Bilad al-Ruha (modern Manasseh Hills), and Marj ibn ‘Amir (modern Jezreel Valley)", or something like that? What do you think? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Huldra,

Thanks for reaching out.

Many thanks for referring me to the naming policy. I've read it carefully and could not find a specific reference to the Ottoman period. I did not refer to "Samaria" in the political sense of the modern north of the "West Bank", but to the district historically known as Jabal Nablus in Ottoman sources (see for example here). We might use "Jabal Nablus" (District of Nablus) instead. Any thoughts whether it might work?

For the geographical extent of the emirate see: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0xr5x18n figure 3. Marom at el's work offers one of the few academic peerreviewed overviews of the Emirate in English. Furthermore, all of these sites are mentioned by name in the Ottoman registers for the region published by M. al-Bakhit: https://www.worldcat.org/title/28579982 . Should we add a link?

The link to Ramot Menasheh is a mistake. I will correct it.

I do think it would be beneficiant to mention the extent of the Emirate from a geographical/histoical perspective. What do you think?

Best רמרום (talk) 00:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again,

Well, basically we don't use the name "Samaria", unless it is to denote ~2000 year old history. We can use it denoting later event, but then only under certain conditions; such as it being a direct quote. As the name "Samaria" was not mentioned in Marom et al, (or indeed used in Ottoman Palestine) I hope you can see why I had a problem with it.

And I agree that some info about the extent of the Emirate is due, but don't you think most of that belong in the Turabay dynasty-article? Which we link to?

Linking to al-Bakhīt is good; I take your word for it that he mentions the places you say he does (I unfortunately don't read/speak Arabic -or Hebrew)

You made a small mistake in the author-list on the Marom-paper: suddenly there are two co-authors with the surname "Marom"? Also, the two co-authors have their own bio here; it is nice (though not compulsory!) to link to them. I have fixed it on Al-Jalama, Tulkarm, ie:

Sorry for the nit-picking, the the I P area is one of the most contentious areas on Wikipedia; you cannot be too careful!

Also, pinging User:Al Ameer son, as he has done most of the work on the Lajjun and Turabay dynasty-articles; I am sure he will be very pleased someone is working on it! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:21, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Huldra,

I am with you on all key points. How do we add links to the bios of the authors? which ones?

On a historical-geographical note, I believe that a mention of the limits of the Emirate gives some added info that helps contextualize the places' histories, but I won't stand on this issue.

I have added the term "Jabal Nablus", but that's not a useful geographic designation to most readers. Any suggestions?

רמרום (talk) 01:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again; To link authors, use my above edit on Al-Jalama, Tulkarm, to re-iterate (now that you have started the Roy Marom-article), in maybe a more "understandable" way:

| last1=Marom

| first1=R.

| author-link1= Roy Marom

| last2=Tepper

| first2=Y.

| author-link2= Yotam Tepper

| last3=Adams

| first3=M.

| author-link3= Matthew J. Adams

That will give:

Marom, R.; Tepper, Y.; Adams, M. "Lajjun: Forgotten Provincial Capital in Ottoman Palestine". Levant. doi:10.1080/00758914.2023.2202484.

Remember to get the numbering right! (I have missed that many times; linking a name to the wrong author). And yeah; I think we could have a -short- description of the geography of the Turabay dynasty in each article. But I stress short: the full description should go into the Turabay dynasty article. Jabal Nablus is presently only a redir (=redirection) to Nablus Sanjak, and that article is basically enumerating the 1596 defter (as given by Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, 1977). We could possibly expand the Nablus Sanjak-article; specifying which villages belonged to the Turabays, during which periods? Then just link to Nablus Sanjak? Just an idea; what do you think? (I haven't checked to see that all the villages under the Turabays actually were in the Nablus Sanjak, also; I'm not sure the borders of Nablus Sanjak were fixed during the whole of the Ottoman era?) Huldra (talk) 23:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Huldra,

I'm with you, you're more adapt, please offer a general text and I will add the villages from the defter there with the reference.Can you suggest a general text for the Turabay Emirate sentence with the links? I will paste it there.

With the links to authors, I will do it next,

Bestרמרום (talk) 23:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also; you don't need to add/link "historian Roy Marom"; that he is a historian is in the Roy Marom-article. If you see on the other mentioned (Guérin, Robinson, etc) any info about them normally just goes into their articles, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS: in the early day, when we didn't have articles about Guérin, Robinson, etc, then we could write like "the French explorer Victor Guérin", etc, but after their article were made, such info usually goes into their articles, only. Huldra (talk) 23:51, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to see attention being paid to Lajjun and the Turabays, and thanks for introducing the Marom source. Hope to tap into it myself soon. Regards Al Ameer (talk) 02:23, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy to contribute to this important subject, and others! רמרום (talk) 02:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Huldra for walking me through with this! רמרום (talk) 02:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CS1 error on Lajjun

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CS1 error on Roy Marom

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A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Jezreel Valley Regional Project is a very good article. Well done! BoyTheKingCanDance (talk) 03:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I will appreciate any feedback on how to make my edits better! רמרום (talk) 05:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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resolved. רמרום (talk) 12:42, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Fixed רמרום (talk) 10:08, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1871 census

Hi, Do you have population figures from the 1871 census? That would be more informative than merely being listed. Zero^talk 11:14, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have for some, and will include them in future edits! רמרום (talk) 11:17, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I see you are citing the Hebrew edition of Grossman's book. I have the English edition and the village-level data only appears in diagrammatic form, not as a table. Is that true in the Hebrew edition too? Zero^talk 12:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. The Hebrew edition has the full census translated from the salnamat on pp. 235-257. It is a very useful source, which I aim to use to fill the data for the remaining villages רמרום (talk) 14:30, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CS1 error on Gabriel Naddaf

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Gabriel Naddaf, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

A "bare URL and missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

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resolved רמרום (talk) 17:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Israel State Archive

Hi, Is there any word on when the Israel State Archive will be back online? It has been almost 3 months. Zero^talk 11:52, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ISA is defuncted. A new site with some of the original material is expected online around April/May רמרום (talk) 20:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Addressed רמרום (talk) 06:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion discussion about Suttara

Hello, רמרום

Welcome to Wikipedia! I edit here too, under the username Chaotic Enby and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I've asked for a discussion about the redirect Suttara, created by you. Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 26 § Suttara.

If you have any questions, please leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Chaotic Enby}}. And don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . Thanks!

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 10:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for noticing this, there was an issue with naming the page.

Please, if you could help also redirecting "Mulabbis" to "Mulabbes", instead of Petah Tikva.

Thanks!רמרום (talk) 10:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

page protection

Hi, adding a tag like {{Pp-extended}} does not protect a page. Actual protection can only be enabled by an administrator. The simplest way is to ask at WP:RPP giving a reason, but often they won't agree if there have been only one or two violations. Zero^talk 06:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey User:Zero0000, many many thanks for the explanation! רמרום (talk) 09:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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