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Talkback

Hello, Σ. You have new messages at Koavf's talk page.
Message added 06:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Σ. You have new messages at Koavf's talk page.
Message added 15:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Natalie Tran

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Thanks

Thank you so much for your comments on the ANI board at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Request_for_CIR_enforcement. I was in abject despair about the way so many ganged up on me without cause. To have a little common sense applied was (to me) like giving water to a man in the desert. I really do hope it's caused others to stop and have pause for thought. SonofSetanta (talk) 09:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, you're welcome, SonofSetanta. That got really ugly. I've been reading a lot of noticeboards and dispute resolution cases lately and it seems like half of the time, the conversation boomerangs back on to the OP and he or she ends up facing sanctions for bringing a case to a noticeboard. The OP becomes the topic of discussion instead of the original complaint that is filed.
It seems unfair that 3 or 4 vocal opponents in an ANI can generate a topic ban when the original question was on something else entirely. I'm so glad that the people reading the page could see the transparent attack upon you. Liz Let's Talk 18:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
P.S. Sorry I missed seeing this when you first posted it. It's time to move some discussion on my Talk Page. Liz Let's Talk 18:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: 2013 New Haven Open at Yale – Doubles

Hello Newjerseyliz. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of 2013 New Haven Open at Yale – Doubles, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: That notable people are playing in it is a good indication of notability. Needs to be PRODded or taken to AfD. Thank you. GedUK  11:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

That's fair, GedUK . Feel free to object and move it to somewhere more appropriate. It seemed to me to be a local sporting event and I didn't see it's significance for Wikipedia. Lots of communities have golf tournaments or marathons or tennis tournaments and don't have a Wikipedia page about it. But I could be wrong. Good luck! Liz Let's Talk 18:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newjerseyliz (talk • contribs)

LGBT guidelines

Hey, just checking if you saw my response to your post about LGBT categorization guidelines. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, my, Roscelese, thanks for letting me know. I did some work with CfD in late July and there didn't seem to be a lot of movement so I hadn't checked back. Now I will! Is this in WP:EGRS? Liz Let's Talk 18:36, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
I didn't see any response to my question at WP:EGRS so maybe you can point me to the right page. Thanks! Liz Let's Talk 18:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Ah, sorry, here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:55, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Roscelese, I also posted this question at WP:EGRS and I believe BLP (maybe the WikiProject on Actors, too). I posted a reply to you at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies.
I thought this really was an issue for WP LGBT to decide but since you're giving me the only feedback I've received, I might take it to the RSN and see what they say. They are pretty responsive but I think I already know how they will answer (documentation is required). Liz Let's Talk 21:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons

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Speedy deletion nomination of Liz/Whiteboard

Hello Liz,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Liz/Whiteboard for deletion, because it seems to be a test. Did you know that the Wikipedia Sandbox is available for testing out edits?

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. TheLongTone (talk) 11:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

TheLongTone, I just decided to call my Sandbox page "Whiteboard" instead. I've seen some users with dozens of sub-pages with different kinds of names (one user calls their Sandbox "Litterbox" instead) so I'm surprised that this page has even gotten the attention of any other users besides myself. Liz Let's Talk 11:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Liz. All fixed up. See
Any problems, please let me know. Peter aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your help, Shirt58! Have a great day. Full moon tonight! ;-) Liz Let's Talk 13:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons

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http://www.buzzfeed.com/justinesharrock/wikipedia-changed-its-entry-to-properly-reflect-chelsea-mann

Morwen also blogged here: http://abigailbrady.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/chelsea-manning-on-pressing-button.html

--\/\/slack (talk) 04:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, \/\/slack! I just finished reading it. I appreciate the alert! Liz Let's Talk 12:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Valerie Sutton

I see that you succeeded in getting the article on Valerie Sutton deleted. It is absolutely stupid things like this that are why I hardly ever edit Wikipedia anymore and stick to Wikia, where I don't run into such things.

VS created a system to record movement. It is now used by many people. I do not see how you could possibly consider the article, as written, to be nothing but a promotion for her systems. It was purely a biography and a history of how the system of movement writing came to be designed.

The article was no more a promotion than a biography of Henry Ford is a commercial for Ford cars, or a biography of Bill Gates a commercial for Microsoft.

You've given me one more reason not to bother editing on Wikipedia. -- BRG (talk) 12:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my action is part of the reason why you might quit editing on Wikipedia, BRG. The reason for the article deletion was:
"G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: image is copyright, "refs" are spamlinks, not independent, don'tsupport text support.
You can always appeal a deletion, of course (nothing is ever truly deleted!). I know that deleted pages can be restored if an editor can say they will address the problems that existed in the article. I don't know the specific page to go to so I'd suggest asking Jimfbleak for clarification about this deletion. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 12:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
It is hard to "address the problems that existed in the article" because I cannot figure out what words you found to be "unambiguous advertising or promotion." I can't for the life of me figure out what words led you to characterize it as such.
By not stating where you found words that were "promotional," you gave me no way to defend the article specifically. It's blind-side attacks like this that make me disinclined to do anything on Wikipedia except correct typos and stuff like that. --BRG (talk) 03:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
BRG, I tagged the article because it was self-promotional, it read like a fan page and had few references. But I don't believe you have to rebut my reasons for tagging it, just make a good argument about why it shouldn't have been deleted.
But as I said above, I recommend you contact Jimfbleak for clarification as he was the user who actually deleted the article. Liz 'Read!' 'Talk!' 13:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Prince George of Cambridge

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Wikidata weekly summary #72

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
  • Discussions
  • Events/Press/Blogs
  • Other Noteworthy Stuff
    • Average edits per page is nearly 5 now.
    • Wikivoyage is still scheduled to get access to data on Wikidata (aka phase 2) on August 26.
    • Developers are working hard to also make the URL datatype available by August 26 but there are factors that are not in their hands so it might have to be delayed until the next deployment in 2 weeks. URL as a datatype will soon be available on test.wikidata.org. Please give it some thorough testing and report bugs.
    • Outsch! (Help collect and fix paper cuts.)
  • Did you know?
    • 20 undescribed monsters
    • Newest properties: separated from (P807), code Bien de Interés Cultural (P808), WPDA id (P809), academic minor (P811), academic major (P812), date retrieved (P813), IUCN protected areas category (P814), ITIS TSN (P815), decays to (P816), decay mode (P817)
  • Development
    • Prepared deployment of phase 2 on Wikivoyage
    • Worked on ability to sort qualifiers and references inside a statement
    • Started work on an api module to merge items
    • Worked on special page to query for items with one specific property and value
    • Cleaned up code for handling recent change entries from Wikidata in the clients (Wikipedia/Wikivoyage)
    • Worked on generic script for populating sites table and better integration with WMF process for creating new wikis
    • Setup new git repo for WikibaseMobile skin and extension
    • Fixed SetClaim api module to properly mark bot edits in recent changes and advised pywikipedia maintainers about adding support for the module. SetClaim can be used to create claims with references in a single edit.
    • Reviewed code for Google Summer of Code students
    • Updated doxygen documentation
  • Open Tasks for You
Read the full report · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 21:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way

If you're interested in the evolution of the Vatican position on homosexuality you should definitely join the discussion/fray at Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism! I've been mostly staying outside of the doctrinal bits other than to revert obvious factual inaccuracies, but you sound like you have more knowledge of the subject. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that is a complicated mess, Roscelese. I was more on top of things in the 1980s when I was living in San Francisco and all I know is that JPII later issued more compassionate statements and less about homosexuality as a "disorder". But I'll check in and look over the conversation. I'm just not up, right now, on the most recent official documents. Liz Read! Talk! 13:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Valerie Sutton

I posted the deleted text here. If you want to check, all I've removed is an image which appears not to be copyright-free. I can't believe that there are TWO users (at least) with that irritating hummingbird!!!! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Jimfbleak. I didn't mean to pass the buck but I couldn't recall too many particulars of that article.
As for the hummingbird, maybe it's time to move that to my sandbox. Kind of MySpacey, I guess. Liz Read! Talk! 15:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Georgian alphabet

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RfC

Hi Liz, I noticed you are signed up for the feedback request service. You may want to comment on this RfC Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews#Scope of this article and the GA nomination as well. Ignocrates (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, my, Ignocrates, I'm not sure I want to step back into this dispute! I thought things had quieted down. I'll check in and look at the discussion but I'm not a biblical scholar so I'm not a master of ancient texts. Thank's for the head's up...I think. ;-) Liz Read! Talk! 17:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
This is not that same tired old dispute. This is a new dispute. Why stop at just one! :0D Ignocrates (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
But still the same people arguing, Ignocrates? Liz Read! Talk! 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, there is that little problem. You can get the monkey off your back, but the circus stays in town forever. Ignocrates (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't see an "argument," I see from my end a reasonable question about the scope. Of course, I can see how some people would try to avoid dealing with that question, and how that might cause them to make it an "argument," rather than a reasonable discussion about what the article should cover.
The question here seems to me to be about the content of the article more than anything else. There are at least two works which have been called "Gospel of the Hebrews," one being that source (or those sources) generally referred to as such by scholars today and at least one other called by that name by Jerome. Honestly, as they themselves never really indicated that they were referring to the same book, there is some question whether we should make that assumption either. Honestly, I don't know, but I would assume that if the ABD discusses them both (or all) in the same article first, and then describes the way that scholarship arrived at its current basic consensus, that there were two (at least) and that one seems to be similar (if not identical) to the Gospel of the Nazoreans, that being the one Jerome talked about, and, finally, coming to conclusions (admittedly not supported by any direct evidence) about what can be gathered about the remaining material, if it is all about the same source. The ABD says this is one of the most "vexing problems in the study of early Christian literature," so I think most people would agree with you that it is a thorny one, but it is also, I think, based on that, a very relevant matter. But, yeah, it is a thorny matter, and I can well imagine that others might not want to weigh in on something even academia isn't really sure about. John Carter (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
You are forgetting that PiCo worked hard to fix up this article, and part of that fix involved restricting the scope. Since then the article has been remarkably stable (until now). That was the point of pulling out all the Hebrew Gospel material: to put an end to the ceaseless edit-warring. The "vexing problems" were moved to the parent Jewish-Christian gospels article where text-critical issues involving both the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Gospel of the Nazoraeans are considered together. Ignocrates (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
John, you make some valid points and this debate should really happen on Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews#Scope of this article not my Talk Page as I am far from an authority on scriptural texts. I've done some work with archival material but none of it involved ancient religious texts. Liz Read! Talk! 18:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 21 August 2013

"...it's crucial to listen to what they have to say about their experience on WP..."

FYI. Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention/Soliloquies may be interesting to you. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, ```Buster Seven, I'll check it out! Liz Read! Talk! 09:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Shooting of Trayvon Martin

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Details on my talk

Second set of details on my talk. PumpkinSky talk 00:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, PumpkinSky! Liz Read! Talk! 00:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback

You have new message/s Hello. You have a new message at Miss Bono's talk page. Miss Bono [zootalk] 17:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of Jem episodes

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New Teahouse message

Yo, Liz, I've answered your latest Teahouse question. (I kinda doubt you need talkbacks, but figured I'd give you a non-template one, just in case.) :) Writ Keeper (WK to move) ⚇♔ 15:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Writ Keeper! ;-) Liz Read! Talk! 18:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Curious

Hi, Liz ... I've been seeing you around everywhere, and I'm just stopping by to let you know that the story being told about Raul/FAC on Pumpkinsky's page is ... one person's version at the most charitable. If you are interested in following some facts, you might start here, where you will find that Pumpkinsky (whose former identity was not revealed until well into the four RFCs) had joined with a very small handful of other now-banned or indef-blocked socks and users who were bearing grudges and attempting to force a change in leadership at FAC ... a proposed change that was rejected in four different RFCs, including the largest one, here:

Once those four RFCs failed to yield the results that small group wanted, the "battleground" (literally) moved over to WP:TFAR, and they eventually succeeded in chasing off Raul, before several of them were banned or uncovered as socks, which is why your queries likely went unanswered. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

"I've been seeing you around everywhere..."
You don't say this like it's a good thing, SandyGeorgia!
I just ran across Raul's name on several pages, he was still being listed as the current editor/director in charge but when I went to his page, it showed he hadn't been active since February 2013. So, I was curious and when his name came up in comments, I inquired what the story was. But I'm not taking sides and realize I might be hearing one side of the story. I just recently went from being an uninvolved, casual editor to one who wants to understand how things like the ARBCOM and AN/I works and is trying to find some aspect of Wikipedia (AfD, CfD, AfC, etc.) where I can put my effort.
But I do appreciate you taking the time to come to my Talk Page and tell me your understanding of what occurred. I'm still figuring things out and so any information is good to know. Liz Read! Talk! 17:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

You don't say this like it's a good thing, ...

I'm not sure how I left that impression, but not at all! Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Well, I didn't mean to read anything into it, SandyGeorgia. I have been self-conscious about weighing in on different forums when I was a pretty uninvolved, isolated editor. In one embarrassing incident, I explained to another user how to file a RfD when it turns out they were very experienced. So, I'm kind of bumbling my way through the deeper levels of Wikipedia (or, as I call it, "Wikipedia: Editing Beyond Typos"). Liz Read! Talk! 18:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
With a bazillion edits, I never quite made it to the "beyond typos" part! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm still basically the same. I've seen some editors lecturing people that they should pick an area of Wikipedia and concentrate on improving it. I might be spreading myself too thin but I haven't felt affinity to any particular WikiProject. Liz Read! Talk! 18:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
P.S. By the way, I stumbled into Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive55 and it's more than I can get through! Looks like this was a hot topic earlier this year. Liz Read! Talk! 18:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

WikiCup 2013 August newsletter

This year's final is upon us. Our final eight, in order of last round's score, are:

  1. Australia Hawkeye7 (submissions), a WikiCup newcomer who has contributed on topics of military history and physics, including a number of high-importance topics. Good articles have made up the bulk of his points, but he has also scored a great deal of bonus points. He has the second highest score overall so far, with more than 3000 points accumulated.
  2. New South Wales Casliber (submissions), another WikiCup veteran who reached the finals in 2012, 2011 and 2010. He writes on a variety of topics including botany, mycology and astronomy, and has claimed the highest or joint highest number of featured articles every round so far this year. He has the third highest score overall, with just under 3000 points accumulated.
  3. Wales Cwmhiraeth (submissions), 2012 WikiCup champion, who writes mostly on marine biology. She has also contributed to high-importance topics, seeing huge numbers of bonus points for high-importance featured and good articles. Previous rounds have seen her scoring the most bonus points, with scoring spread across did you knows, good articles and featured articles.
  4. Canada Sasata (submissions), a WikiCup veteran who finished in second place in 2012, and competed as early as 2009. He writes articles on biology, especially mycology, and has scored highly for a number of collaborations at featured article candidates.
  5. Colorado Sturmvogel_66 (submissions), the winner of the 2010 competition. His contributions mostly concern Naval history, and he has scored a very large number of points for good articles and good article reviews in every round. He is the highest scorer overall this year, with over 3500 points in total.
  6. Wyoming Ealdgyth (submissions), who is competing in the WikiCup for the second time, though this will be her first time in the final. A regular at FAC, she is mostly interested in British medieval history, and has scored very highly for some top-importance featured articles on the topic.
  7. London Miyagawa (submissions), a finalist in 2012 and 2011. He writes on a broad variety of topics, with many of this year's points coming from good articles about Star Trek. Good articles make up the bulk of his points, and he had the most good articles back in round 2; he was also the highest scorer for DYK in rounds 1 and 2.
  8. Scotland Adam Cuerden (submissions) has previously been involved with the WikiCup, but hasn't participated for a number of years. He scores mostly from restoration work leading to featured picture credits, but has also done some article writing and reviewing.

We say goodbye to eight great participants who did not qualify for the final: Poland Piotrus (submissions), Idaho Figureskatingfan (submissions), Ohio ThaddeusB (submissions), Michigan Dana boomer (submissions), Prince Edward Island Status (submissions), United States Ed! (submissions), Florida 12george1 (submissions), England Calvin999 (submissions). Having made it to this stage is still an excellent achievement, and you can leave with your heads held high. We hope to see you all again next year. Signups are now open for the 2014 WikiCup, which will begin on 1 January. All Wikipedians, whatever their interest or level of experience, are warmly invited to participate in next year's competition.

This last month has seen some incredible contributions; for instance, Cwmhiraeth's Starfish and Ealdgyth's Battle of Hastings—two highly important, highly viewed pages—made it to featured article status. It would be all too easy to focus solely on these stunning achievements at the expense of those participants working in lower-scoring areas, when in fact all WikiCup participants are doing excellent work. A mention of everything done is impossible, but here are a few: Last round saw the completion of several good topics (on the 1958, 1959 and 1962 Atlantic hurricane seasons) to which 12george1 had contributed. Calvin999 saw "S&M" (song), on which he has been working for several years, through to featured article status on its tenth try. Figureskatingfan continued towards her goal of a broad featured/good topic on Maya Angelou, with two featured and four good articles. ThaddeusB contributed significantly to over 20 articles which appeared on the main page's "in the news" section. Adam Cuerden continued to restore a large number of historical images, resulting in over a dozen FP credits this round alone. The WikiCup is not just about top-importance featured articles, and the work of all of these users is worthy of commendation.

Finally, the usual notices: If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Wikipedia:WikiCup/Reviews. If you want to help out with the WikiCup, please do your bit to reduce the review backlogs! Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email) and The ed17 (talk • email) 05:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Persecution of indigenous peoples in Bangladesh

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Claims to be the fastest-growing religion

This article, and the related deletion discussion, might be in your field, and I think it would probably welcome additional outsider input. John Carter (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, John Carter. That is an extremely hard statistic to determine unless you are limiting your study to a well-defined geographic region where there is a history of data collection on religion (which is not common). Many people rely on churches estimates of membership which are variable and unreliable data. Liz Read! Talk! 20:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it is supposed to be about the factual statistic, but the various claims made by, oh, purty much everybody, it looks like, to qualify as the fastest growing group. And, yeah, I've seen quite a few such claims myself. Also, while I'm bugging you here, I was wondering what you might think about Wikipedia:WikiProject Theology. There is a separate and closely related concept, Thealogy, and, considering the apparent inactivity of that project, whether it might be best merged into the Religion WikiProject. I would support such a merge myself, but I honestly don't know whether we should use the existing name, or maybe change it to a more inclusive title, which wouldn't seem to rule out religious philosophy relating to a goddess, which is, I think, what thealogy is supposed to be. John Carter (talk) 20:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Oh, John, I would leave topics regarding Feminist Spirituality alone (see Talk:Thealogy#Oppose_the_Merger). They very clearly set out a separate space from mainstream patriarchal religions and trying to subsume them under a Theology banner would not respect that and would seem WP:POINTY. It doesn't matter if not one has worked on it recently. Feel free to place a template on it that it needs improvement or post a question suggesting it on the Talk Page but Categories are political (see WP:EGRS). I just think there are plenty projects you could work on that wouldn't stir up a hornet's nest!
Personally, I'm more interested in dull things like determining membership and conflict in leadership structures in religious organization (religion, modern history and sociology). While I identify as a feminist, feminist spirituality isn't my thing. But I respect how important it is to some women and as long as the articles have proper references, I would let the people who care, define their own terms rather than imposing a conformity on to them. Liz Read! Talk! 22:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I only mentioned it because you said you were involved in NRMs, and to my eyes, as someone who doesn't know a lot of NRM topics that well, it looked like it might be basically related to the scope of the inactive Theology project, maybe enough to perhaps rename that project if it were "merged" into the parent Religion project, if it were in the scope, for "neutrality" purposes. Also, FWIW, having seen you want to eventually become an admin, I think weighing in on discussions like you have been in some fields will really help a lot, but that there are people who seem to indicate that they want more people involved in content development as admins. Also, I think it is great that we have something interested in the history and organization of groups, which don't get that much attention in general around here. If you think that maybe I could help in maybe getting some sources you might want on some related topic, just let me know. John Carter (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk page archiving

Just noticed the red link in the archive template at the top of this page. You might want to check that. John Carter (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, John. I am not sure at all if I have the archive code correct. I just copied it from someone else's Talk Page. Liz Read! Talk! 19:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #73

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
  • Discussions
  • Events/Press/Blogs
  • Other Noteworthy Stuff
  • Did you know?
    • Newest properties: interchange station (P833), public holiday (P832), parent club (P831), Encyclopedia of Life (P830), OEIS ID (P829), possible causes (P828), BBC programme identifier (P827), tonality (P826), dedicated to (P825), Meteoritical Bulletin Database ID (P824)
    • Newest task forces: Wikidata:País Valencià task force
  • Development
    • Work on allowing API module editentities to edit claims
    • Work on entity / item redirects
    • Work on support for moving qualifiers in API and Frontend
    • Adding coordinates to diff display and improving diff display code
    • Allowing site groups for language links on clients to be configurable (needed for commons)
    • EntityId changes, we are now working on 0.5!
    • Show snaktype in summary for novalue and somevalue snaks
    • Further work on merge module for the API
    • Wrote missing tests for various jQuery widgets
    • Work on value formatters
    • Continue on moving tests to cucumber
    • Bug fixes for coordinates following the latest deployment
  • Open Tasks for You
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The Signpost: 28 August 2013

Please comment on Talk:Bangladesh Liberation War

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Please comment on Talk:Lucio Dalla

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Interview request: Your interactions with new editors

I'm contacting you about a study that I'm running with TheOriginalSoni exploring newcomer mentorship activities in Wikipedia. I'd like to ask you a few questions about your interactions with newcomers and to explore how a tool like WP:Snuggle might make your work easier. The interview and demo session will take 30 minutes to an hour depending on how much time we spend discussing things. If you're interested, let me know. If not, disregard this message and I won't bother you again.

Thanks for your consideration. --EpochFail (talk • contribs) 14:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments

First, I thought you might be interested in taking part at the RfC at Talk:List of new religious movements. Also, if you have anything you wish to contribute to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#John Carter, feel free to do so. John Carter (talk) 21:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 04 September 2013

Wikidata weekly summary #74

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
Read the full report · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 22:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#A proposed tool for reducing backlogs

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#A proposed tool for reducing backlogs. APerson (talk!) 01:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence phase open - Manning naming dispute

Dear Liz.

This is just a quick courtesy notice. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 19, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Seddon talk 23:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Seddon. I'm not sure what to do. I sort of said what I wanted to say in my statement and I wasn't an active participant in the discussion so I'm not presenting "evidence", just my opinion. What do you suggest? Liz Read! Talk! 23:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Parent categories

A number of your recent edits have added parent categories to articles. As a general rule, we avoid doing this. For example: Once Kel Mitchell is in Category:African-American male child actors, he should not be added to Category:African-American male actors[1] or Category:American male actors[2] as both of those categories are subcategories (or "daughter" categories) of Category:African-American male child actors. Similarly, we would not add him to :[[Category:African-American child actors, Category:African-American actors, Category:American male child actors, Category:American actors, etc. Please see Wikipedia:Categorization#Subcategorization for another explanation of the same issue. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

tp stalker here - what SummerPhD said is correct if the category in question is diffusing. if it's non-diffusing, then you *do* need to add to the parent category, or, a sibling (which is the same thing as adding to the parent, then immediately diffusing). Read WP:EGRS for guidelines on such categories. The actor categories are a bit special as they seem to be fully diffused on gender (but should not be diffused on race - the race cats should be non-diffusing)). Once you're done with your PhD in set theory you might understand how this works - it's rather complex... :( --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I'll try to digest this all, SummerPhD and Obi-Wan Kenobi but there are a lot of inconsistencies with categories.
For example, take Denzel Washington...he could be categorized (this is ONLY considering his acting activity and not including award categories):
  • American stage actor
  • American film actor
  • America television actor
  • American voice actor
  • American actor
  • African-American stage actor
  • African-American film actor
  • African-American television actor
  • African-American voice actor
  • African-American actor
  • American male stage actor
  • American male film actor
  • America male television actor
  • American male voice actor
  • American male actor
  • African-American male stage actor
  • African-American male film actor
  • African-American male television actor
  • African-American male voice actor
  • African-American male actor
  • 20th-century actor
  • 20th-century male actor
  • 21st-century actor
  • 21st-century male actor
  • Actors from New York
  • Male actors from New York
  • Actors from Los Angeles, California
  • Male actors from Los Angeles, California
And this is assuming that he doesn't have additional ethnicity to consider and, again, does not include all of the acting award categories that could be applied. So, which ones do you select? Liz Read! Talk! 18:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Categories are not like resumes - they aren't intended to capture everything you did, they are intended to capture things which are DEFINING. I'd thus say that Denzel is not a television actor, that's not defining for him, nor a stage actor. I'd put him in the following, based on your list above:
  • American male film actor
  • African-American male film actor
  • 20th-century male actor
  • 21st-century male actor
  • Male actors from New York
  • Male actors from Los Angeles, California
Not - I think we should get rid of the "ethnicity+ gender" categories in the acting section - I don't see a point for it really - I'd much rather use category intersects to deal with this. But, as always, not my decision.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, this all started this morning because I noticed that there was Category:African-American child actresses and although there is a Category:African-American male child actors most young male actors were in Category:African-American child actors which should be the parent category for both gender categories. So, I was switching the last two.
Now, some of these child actors have transitioned to adult roles and they frequently had Category:African-American actors and Category:American actors (no gender) so I changed their categories to show gender since all of these acting categories have an "Actresses" component. I don't think there's controversy that if the category has a female component, then it should have a male component (although some don't bifurcate and use the same category for both men and women).
But I'm not sure about race and ethnicity. Should an actor be known as an African-American male actor or just an American male actor? It's even more complicated with ethnicity. Suppose an actress is Puerto Rican...then they are not only a "Puerto Rican actress" but an "American actress" (since Puerto Rico is part of the U.S.) but there is also an "American actress from Puerto Rico" and an "Actress with Puerto Rican descent". And that is just considering ethnic descent, not nationality which is another set of categories. And of course, also "Hispanic and Latin American actresses" and then the sub-categories for whatever medium they perform in. It is Categoripalooza.
Personally, I think that film/stage/voice/TV distinctions should be done away with. The way it is (because mostly fans write profile), if an actor has ever done a play, they are a "Stage actor". Likewise, there are a lot of rappers who had a cameo in a movie and are categorized "Film actor". At this point, so many film actors have moved to doing TV shows (and vice versa) that you end up with far too many categories.
At this point, you probably are thinking, "Why don't you pose these questions at the Categorization Talk Page?" Well, it's because you two will respond and when I had a pretty important question about gender orientation categorization, I didn't get much of a response (I think one reply, a month later) and I posted the question at WP:EGRS! Liz Read! Talk! 18:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Generally, ethnicity categories are non-diffusing. Meaning, if you're african-American X, you should also be "American X". Gender categories are ALSO non-diffusing, unless they aren't - such as the case with actors. So it's bit confusing. Puerto Rican is a bit of an odd/special case, there are different interpretations of how to categorize puerto rican people, I generally just stay away as it's not worth the hassle. I think there could be an argument to get rid of film/stage/voice/TV - however it is clear there are some people who really are most known for one thing (e.g. stage acting, film acting, TV acting, etc). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay, let me get this straight, Obi-Wan Kenobi, since I've reread SummerPhD's comment several times and I still don't understand her point (and I've also read Wikipedia:Categorization but found it unclear).
Hypothetical case: If Denzel Washington is in "African-American male actors" then he should also be in "American male actors". But, if there didn't already exist a category for "African-American actresses" and "American actresses", then he'd simply be listed as "African-American actors" and "American actors". But since the category of "Actors" already has been bifurcated by gender, these division is still observed.
The ethnicity categories are confusing because it can mean, a) the country one was born in, b) the country one is a citizen of, c) the country where one works and d) the ethnic heritage of ones family ("descent"). Allowing from a mixed ethnic background from multiple relatives, this can quickly lead to overcategorization. Liz Read! Talk! 02:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
If Denzel Washington is in "African-American male actors" then he should also be in "American male actors". - correct. If we take a different case, say "Heads of state", where there isn't a male category, then he'd be in "African-American heads of State" and "American heads of state", and a black woman would be in "African-American heads of state, American heads of state, and American women heads of state". The ethnicity categories are again, generally based on wp:defining - so if a source says "X is a french writer" (even if X was born in the US to french parents and then moved to france later), then we classify them as a french writer, and perhaps as an american one as well. Rather than tearing your hair out over this, come help me get category intersection working instead which will make this all MUCH simpler.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, this was my understanding, too, when I was sorting through categories this morning but it prompted the first note in this discussion so I'm still trying to figure out what SummerPhD's complaint is and how that differed from what I was doing.
"come help me get category intersection working instead which will make this all MUCH simpler"
Point me in the right direction! I've tried suggesting changes at CfD and found a) only 1-4 people comment on my listings, b) the final decision (keep, delete, rename, merge) doesn't always reflect the opinions of the 4 people who managed to voice an opinion and c) decisions are inherently conservative (that is, if some change looks like it will have far-reaching repercussions or involve some work, it's always turned down). 02:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
CFD is inherently conservative, but they are also rather brutal in getting rid of new categories that crop up if they don't fit in. I'd suggest just participating there for a few months to get a sense of things - there are a few people who dominate the discussions and things tend to go their way, they hold a lot of sway. You will get a sense of how to craft a nomination so that it goes through, and when you should/shouldn't do a mass nomination for example. I'll send you instructions for how to test the category intersections in a bit.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Oh, that would be so useful, Obi-Wan Kenobi, thank you. I really thought I'd found my niche in finding appropriate categories for articles and standardizing them. For example, sometimes there are identical categories and one category will have 334 articles assigned to it while the other has 12. Or, there will be a parent category with 9 child categories and then 4 articles that are just assigned to the parent category...I'll see if they are better assigned to a child category.
I worked for years in a library so re/assigning categories comes from a desire to organize rather than any ideological/theoretical bias on what categories should exist. Any way, it is more satisfying working with CfD than AfD where I was less successful and always felt like I was crushing someone's work.Liz Read! Talk! 15:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
If you are that special type of person who actually enjoys categorization, then you are most welcome. For most people, it is a tedious and depressing. You can read through my deghettoization algorithm here: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force#List_of_categories_that_need_to_be_de-ghettoized - and if you understand that, you are well on your way to understanding why we should move to category intersection... :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Depressing? No! It's bringing order to chaos, more accurate categorization helps people find what they are looking for more easily. No, what I find depressing is deleting articles or reverting people's contributions. I understand that those actions must be done (pruning away the unimportant and trivial), I just don't find that kind of work rewarding. I think it is far too easy to drive away new editors through speedy deletions and reverts.
On the other hand, dealing with categories has led me into a few unexpected conflicts (like the first comment in this thread) when I thought my decisions were pretty straight-forward. But I did recheck some of my work from early yesterday and replaced several categories that I had deleted to address her concerns.
Thanks for that link, I'm eager to read that page. It can be overwhelmingly to consider recategorizing thousands of "neutral" pages into gender appropriate categories so that the parent category can have both male and female child categories (if that is the way it's set up like for Actors and Comedians). That's the only depressing aspect I've found about categories but the work does go quicker with HotCat. However, the more I look at Categorization, the more work I see that needs to be addressed. Liz Read! Talk! 16:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
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