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Template:Did you know nominations/Poèmes pour Mi

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:59, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

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Poèmes pour Mi

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  • ... that Poèmes pour Mi is a song cycle by Olivier Messian, in which he set his own poems for a grand soprano dramatique and piano or orchestra, dedicated to his wife (couple pictured)? Source: several

Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 15:25, 15 November 2018 (UTC).


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: No - There seem to be two unusual/interesting points to the hook: firstly, that the cycle called for a grand soprano dramatique (the article goes further and suggests that this may have been Marcelle Bunlet); and secondly, that the cycle was dedicated to his wife. Unfortunately, I think the hook as written is a bit clunky and doesn't highlight either of these facts well. Less is more, so I suggest that one of these is chosen; in line with that, I've proposed some alts below.
  • Other problems: No - The hook says "his wife" when it seems that Delbos was his first of two wives. Also, why is the hook spelling Messiaen as "Messian"?
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: — Bilorv(c)(talk) 22:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for thinking a lot. Sorry about the wrong composer name, I was in a rush and copied from the image name without checking. Now, I think "first wife" is nonsense. She was his (only) wife at the time, we don't have to look ahead. I'd rather explain the title than give attention to a specific singer, so am not happy with ALT2. ALT1 woud need "pictured" somwhere, and the photo is possibly from before their marriage, - I don't know if she ever changed her name, unfamiliar with French rules. I'd like to incude that it's on his own poems, for the very personal touch, so am not too happy with ALT1. Finally, I try if at all possible to have the topic as the first link in a hook.
ALT3: ... that Poèmes pour Mi is a song cycle by Olivier Messiaen, who set his own poems for a grand soprano dramatique and piano or orchestra, and dedicated it to his wife (couple pictured)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
ALT3 keeps a couple of problems from the initial hook: firstly, grand soprano dramatique needs to be translated ("great dramatic soprano"). Furthermore I think the link dramatic soprano is necessary: This is a DYK for general readers, and as a non-music specialist, it took me a while to parse what it meant. Here was my thoughts process: is it referring to a type of instrument? No, soprano is a singer, but is "great dramatic" supposed to describe the specific performer or is it a technical term? Looking it up, I see that "dramatic soprano" is a technical term, and then presumably "great" is a standalone adjective. We can shortcut the reader's thought process by translating and linking. (Assuming of course that my conclusion is correct.)
Next, it's still a bit clunky. The fact that it's for piano or orchestra isn't the catchy bit, and we want readers to click on the link so the hook doesn't need to be a full description of what the work is. I'll accept this if you insist; this is just my advice. — Bilorv(c)(talk) 13:31, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
I am open to advice. I thought that "grand soprano dramatique" is very close to the translation, so could add a little French flavor, - aso it seems to be a fixed term in French, but isn't in English. I am willing to link if you insist, but believe that whoever doesn't know what a soprano is (and let's not speak about what dramatic means) will not enjoy the article anyway. We should avoid extra links. The other day, I had a singer with links to operas - wanted in that case - and some operas received more cloicks than the singer. This song cycle is the cmposer's only one also for orchestra, and I thought it adds weight. We could consider dropping the piano part.
ALT4: ... that Poèmes pour Mi is a song cycle by Olivier Messiaen, who set his own poems for a grand soprano dramatique and orchestra, and dedicated it to his wife (couple pictured)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:54, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
(Renamed this to ALT4; italics fixed.) I'm happy with this as a compromise, so ALT4 approved! Thanks for the speedy responses! — Bilorv(c)(talk) 15:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this. Is there an inline cite for the fact that these were his own poems? Yoninah (talk) 22:42, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Restoring tick per Bilorv's review. Yoninah (talk) 22:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
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