Template:Did you know nominations/Mukundrao Pai
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 19:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
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Mukundrao Pai
- ... that cricket umpire Mukundrao Pai's altercation with a British army major, J. G. Greig, resulted in the Bombay Quadrangular introducing neutral umpires more than 75 years before international cricket did? Source: https://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/mukundrao-pai-first-indian-to-score-hundred-on-first-class-debut-464333 https://www.jstor.org/stable/651075 https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.3410/page/6/mode/2up
Created by Ktin (talk). Self-nominated at 22:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC).
Hi Ktin. Article created 28 November, exceeds minimum length and is well written; I am not overly familiar with cricket referencing but the sources used appear to be reliable for the subject; I had an issue accessing the Bombay Chronicle articles, are the links correct? I didn't pick-up on any overly close paraphrasing from the sources I accessed; your hook fact (the 75 years before international cricket) is mentioned in the source but not stated in the article (also we should probably call Pai a "cricket umpire" here, rather than a "cricketer" to clarify his role in the match in question); also awaiting a QPQ. If you let me know when addressed, I'll take another look - Dumelow (talk) 19:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Added QPQ. Something has gone wrong with the Bombay Chronicle links -- they are no longer available on Archive.org. I will do some more digging. Reintroduced the text in the article -- seems to have been dropped in a subsequent edit. Passing back to the reviewer. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 03:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi Ktin, fine for me. I changed "cricketer" to "cricket umpire" and "almost 75 years" to "more than 75 years". The latter change reflects the article's "good 75 years", the incident was in 1916 and neutral umpires were first trialled for international tests in 1992 - Dumelow (talk) 08:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- Neutral umpires were first used in international cricket in 1986 - per this very reliable source - CricketCountry, fwiw, can be a bit flakey when in comes to reliability in my experience. But that's conflating international cricket with domestic cricket. They had been used in domestic cricket in England, for example, for decades before 1916. For example, this scorecard from 1913 lists two umpires neither of whom had played for either of the two county sides involved in the match; I could find hundreds of other matches were the same is true - for example, all 14 of Kent's matches in 1890 were officiated by neutral umpires. In my view the hook is misleading at best. It might apply to India, although I'm sure there must have been neutral umpires in Ranji matches before the 1990s. Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thankyou Blue Square Thing, I hadn't realised they had been used before the official trials in 1992. Ktin, is there an alternative hook that can be proposed - Dumelow (talk) 09:59, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'd suggest him being the first Indian cricketer to score a century on his first-class debut is probably more notable anyway. Assuming that we ca verify that that is actually the case - I'll do some digging. Certainly that's more specifically about Pai and given the importance of cricket in India is a pretty darned significant thing - it surprises me that we never had an article about him before. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Dumelow and Blue Square Thing: I am good with this one. I was trying to combine one with 'Jungly' Greig, but, we can go with this one. Ktin (talk) 15:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Ktin: the ACS confirms that he's the first Indian to score a century on fc debut. It's possible that some of the others might have been born in India, but would be Europeans, not Indian I think. I will double check that once I can get to a computer which I can access CricketArchive on... Someone needs to write a new hook btw. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
ALT1.0: ... that India's first centurion on debut, Mukundrao Pai's altercation with a British army major, 'Jungly' Greig, resulted in the Bombay Quadrangular introducing neutral umpires in 1916?- ALT1.1: ... that Indian cricketer Mukundrao Pai's altercation with a British army major, J. G. Greig, while umpiring resulted in the Bombay Quadrangular introducing neutral umpires in 1916?
- ALT1.2: ... that Indian cricketer Mukundrao Pai's altercation with a British army major, J. G. Greig, resulted in the Bombay Quadrangular introducing neutral umpires in 1916?
- ALT2.0: ... that cricketer Mukundrao Pai was the first Indian to score a century on first-class debut?
- @Blue Square Thing and Dumelow: Alright folks, added a few hooks. My preference is for one of the ALT1.x hooks over ALT2.0. But, if that is difficult, lets go with ALT2. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 04:31, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Ktin. I have struck 1.0: I am not certain that "India's first centurion on debut" means the same as "first Indian to score 100 on his first-class debut", presumably someone would have done the same in a non-first class match? Also not sure about how well-known "centurion" as a term in this context is and possible confusion with "India's" being taken as referring to the national team. Others are fine though I note that if you name him "Jungly" in the hook, you should also use this form in the article - Dumelow (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Blue Square Thing and Dumelow: Alright folks, added a few hooks. My preference is for one of the ALT1.x hooks over ALT2.0. But, if that is difficult, lets go with ALT2. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 04:31, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Ktin: the ACS confirms that he's the first Indian to score a century on fc debut. It's possible that some of the others might have been born in India, but would be Europeans, not Indian I think. I will double check that once I can get to a computer which I can access CricketArchive on... Someone needs to write a new hook btw. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Dumelow and Blue Square Thing: I am good with this one. I was trying to combine one with 'Jungly' Greig, but, we can go with this one. Ktin (talk) 15:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'd suggest him being the first Indian cricketer to score a century on his first-class debut is probably more notable anyway. Assuming that we ca verify that that is actually the case - I'll do some digging. Certainly that's more specifically about Pai and given the importance of cricket in India is a pretty darned significant thing - it surprises me that we never had an article about him before. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- Neutral umpires were first used in international cricket in 1986 - per this very reliable source - CricketCountry, fwiw, can be a bit flakey when in comes to reliability in my experience. But that's conflating international cricket with domestic cricket. They had been used in domestic cricket in England, for example, for decades before 1916. For example, this scorecard from 1913 lists two umpires neither of whom had played for either of the two county sides involved in the match; I could find hundreds of other matches were the same is true - for example, all 14 of Kent's matches in 1890 were officiated by neutral umpires. In my view the hook is misleading at best. It might apply to India, although I'm sure there must have been neutral umpires in Ranji matches before the 1990s. Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
ALT1.2 to T:DYK/P3
- OK, I'll admit to wondering a bit about "Jungly". It all sounds a bit It Ain't Half Hot Mum, which is rather dated and generally considered a bit on the racist side if I'm honest. I know he was called that then, but lots of people were called things we might not call them now. I'd prefer JG Greig personally. Blue Square Thing (talk) 19:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- I am ok to going back to J. G. Greig. Updated the hooks. @Theleekycauldron: please can you use ALT1.2 as it stands currently. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Done! In the future, Ktin, please don't modify a closed discussion (or, for that matter, write below the line that says "please do not write below this line")—leave a comment on my talk page, or ping me at WT:DYK, I'll make the changes from there. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 20:13, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- I am ok to going back to J. G. Greig. Updated the hooks. @Theleekycauldron: please can you use ALT1.2 as it stands currently. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)