Talk:You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as having no substantive content, because the rationale says "an article that contains no content whatsoever, or consists only of external links, category tags, a "see also" section, a rephrasing of the title, an attempt to correspond with the person or group named by its title, chat-like comments and/or images" - so which one of these applies exactly? Thanks. --Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Songwriters

• "It was written by Penn in collaboration with Bo Diddley and Willie Cobbs" — wording implies active participation by Diddley and Cobbs, which is unlikely. Their names were probably added to avoid a copyright lawsuit. Unless there is a reliable source (not just a record label listing), try "credited to Penn, Diddley, and Cobbs".
  • If you sample from someone, they are credited as songwriters, yes because of copyright of material and content they have created. To be honest, they are active in a way as they have created what the cover artist is using. That's just how it is done.  — AARON • ^TALK 20:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• "which samples the music and lyrics of Cobbs' 1960 song "You Don't Love Me'" — sampling (music) means to actually take a potion of the recording from one song and use it in another, which is not the case here (there is no portion of Cobbs' recording in Penn's 1967 song). Penn's song is based on Cobbs' song, that is she used most of his lyrics and melody, but set it to a different musical arrangement (Cobbs based his on Bo Diddley's "She's Fine She's Mine", but changed it a bit; a brief search doesn't show that any of the three has brought a infringement claim against the others). Perhaps change to something along the lines of "which is based on Cobbs' 1960 song" or "which uses the lyrics and melody from Cobb's 1960 song ... but with a rocksteady arrangement, which gave it a distinct rhythmic quality". -Ojorojo (talk) 19:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

  If she has used his lyrics and melody, then that is using a portion of the song, as it's not the same musical arrangement, as you say.  — AARON • ^TALK 20:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Sampling (music) (which the article links to) states "In music, sampling is the act of taking a portion, or sample, of one sound recording and reusing it as an instrument or a sound recording in a different song or piece". The dictionary includes in the definition of sampling "The technique of digitally encoding music or sound and reusing it as part of a composition or recording". The Sampling article goes into specific detail, but the bottomline is sampling is the taking and reusing of a recording. The Penn song does not take any part of Cobbs' (or Diddley's) recording and use it in her song. Penn's voice sings most of the lyrics and follows the melody line by Cobbs, but this does not constitute "sampling" by this definition, because she has created it — Cobbs' voice or any other sounds in his recording are not reused in Penn's song. So, to say Cobbs' song is sampled is simply wrong. -Ojorojo (talk) 14:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

What technical term would you propose replace it? Interpolation (music)? Contains elements of?  — AARON • ^TALK 15:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

In earlier versions of the article, Penn's song was called an interpretation of Cobbs' song. "Contains elements of", "is based on", "borrows from", etc. all would have a similar meaning. Interpolation is a much narrower term, whereas these others are broader (and more easily understood). Mentioning that Penn (or her producers) added a new backing arrangement (i.e., rocksteady) helps clarify why it just isn't a cover. Have the others who recorded their versions really sampled Penn's song, interpreted it (added some original elements), or just covered (copied) it? (BTW the lead should just summarize the article and the details be contained in the appropriate section — I'll take a go at it later in my sandbox.) -Ojorojo (talk) 17:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

All the singers have either covered the song (Rihanna), sampled the song (Lily Allen) or performed parts of the song with another song live (Beyonce).  — AARON • ^TALK 18:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Added some references, infobox material, etc. Change as you see fit. -Ojorojo (talk) 14:23, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but I couldn't see any references. You just added back what was there before, which was unsourced, as well as other unsourced material. And you made the lead not per MOS or LEAD.  — AARON • ^TALK 21:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Odd, new referenced material was added, including a direct quote. However, additional quotes and references have been provided. -Ojorojo (talk) 15:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Holiday56 (talk · contribs) 06:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing the article. Holiday56 (talk) 06:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

• A singles chronology could be added.

Penn's singles chronology is confusing, with different labels, territories, formats, mixes, etc. — not an easy task. -Ojorojo (talk) 16:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This is her only song with an article, so we don't really know the before and after.  — AARON • ^TALK 17:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. As much as I'd like see the singles chronology, it's not necessarily a requirement for a GA. If no sources can really be found to verify the singles chronology, I guess can let that slide for now. Holiday56 (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Released as a digital download in 1994?

1994 formats listed. Which length(s) should be used?

It can be downloaded now, and that is sourced from iTunes. I can't find sources for CD releases etc.  — AARON • ^TALK

It's rather confusing to list digital download as the only format, especially when the single cover being used in this article is of a 12-inch single. Obviously, the song must have been released in some physical formats – CD, cassette, 12-inch – otherwise, there's no way it could have charted in the 1990s. A quick Amazon search brought back evidence of 12-inch and CD releases. More info that can be incorporated. Holiday56 (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The 12 inch doesn't have any description of what edit the song is or the time length, so that can't be added. The Amazon CD one can't be either. This article is about "You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)", not "You Don't Love Me (Willie Cobbs song)", which is what the CD mixes are for. They don't belong in this article.  — AARON • ^TALK 12:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

If sources (the Amazon links) have been found to verify the existence of the 12-inch and CD formats, I don't see why they can't be added in the infobox. In place of the track listing, perhaps a sentence in the article saying "The single was released in 12-inch and CD formats..." could be added.

I'd rather have the formats field left blank altogether rather than have digital download listed as the only format, because that seems to imply that it was only released in download format (impossible for a single released in the 1990s). My apologies if I appear to be too demanding. Holiday56 (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• A track listing section could be added.

  No, because only one version of the song exists. Track listing sections are only need when there a multiple remixes by different producers etc., like "S&M".  — AARON • ^TALK 17:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

  Amazon sources provided above show that there are indeed more remixes and B-sides. Holiday56 (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

  Here's a scan of the CD single back cover, with track lengths and alternate remixes/versions. Cite the information using this template. Holiday56 (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

  They are all added now  — AARON • ^TALK 14:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• "from her debut studio album, No No No (1994)." → The song was already well-known in Jamaica in 1967. The more internationally known version is the 1990s re-recording, but I feel that it would be better to mention the original version first.

  That already has it's own article. "You Don't Love Me". Penn's version isn't strictly a cover, otherwise it would be in the other article.  — AARON • ^TALK 17:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• "They lyrics" → "The song's lyrics"
• There's a disputed statement tag in there, which should probably be sorted out.
• I'd suggest adding the fact that Cobb's version is itself based on Bo Diddley's "She's Fine She's Mine" to the lead. The current wording makes it seem that Bo Diddley actively participated in writing the song with Penn.

  I've done some copy-editing to the lead. Holiday56 (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Background

• "The singer decided to take a break from singing" → Not keen on "sing" being used twice so soon, rephrase please

Rephrased.

• Why are three sources needed for the statement "Steely and Clevie produced it"? And how does the booklet of a Rihanna album give information on the producers of a 1994 song?

  Just sourcing who produced it. Rihanna's booklet confirms who wrote it, as Rihanna's version is cover.  — AARON • ^TALK 17:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

  Still, the statement being sourced is that they produced the track, not wrote it. Thus, that source either needs to be moved elsewhere in the article or removed altogether for that particular instance. Holiday56 (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• "Her newer song is credited to Penn, Cobbs, and Bo Diddley". Wasn't the older version also credited to these people as well? It was also based on the Cobbs/Diddley version. Perhaps this information could be moved to the paragraph regarding the 1967 version.
  • • I don't know. This article isn't about the old song.  — AARON • ^TALK 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Penn's name is the only one listed on the 1994 single. Most of Penn's original 1967 singles do not list a writer; the one that does credits "C. Dodd & D. Penn". -Ojorojo (talk) 17:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. Noticed that the final statement of the background section ("Her newer song is credited...") doesn't have a reference. Aaron, can you source this? Holiday56 (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• • • Sourced now  — AARON • ^TALK 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Chart performance

• "In the United States, "You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)" peaked at number 58 on the United States'..." → Rephrase, "United States" is used twice in the same sentence.
• "Radio Songs" is a term used only on Billboard.com. The chart is known as "Hot 100 Airplay" elsewhere.

Covers

• "Jason Birchmeier for AllMusic described..." → "Jason Birchmeier, writing for AllMusic, described..."
• Paragraph on Beyonce's version needs some reworking. A lot of repetition, for example: "Then a man... She was then... She was then..." And do we really need so much information on her version? What makes it any more notable than the other versions mentioned in this section?

  It's not, it just gives background on how the song was used. RIhanna's includes reviews of her version too. It's not necessarily got more dedicated to it, the others simply have less info about it.  — AARON • ^TALK

  Okay. Still, the Beyonce section still needs to be rewritten for the repetition issues I mentioned. Holiday56 (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

  But there's not repetition.  — AARON • ^TALK 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

  The word "then" is repeated in used in the beginnings of three consecutive sentences:

  "Then a man banged a gong..."

  "She was then lifted out of a 20-foot train..."

  "She was then lowered to the B-stage..."

  I think that can be rewritten to cut usage of "then". Holiday56 (talk) 13:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Removed some of them.  — AARON • ^TALK 14:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

  Does nobody knows about the Kaleidoscope version of this song from 1968?  — NATHAN • ^TALK 06:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC+1)

Other

• "1967 singles" as a category added.

Overall, a good start, but several issues are in need of fixing. Putting this on hold for the meantime. Holiday56 (talk) 06:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks, done all.  — AARON • ^TALK 17:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Looking over the article again, all my issues seem to have been addressed. Good work; well-sourced and well-written, solid article. Passing. Holiday56 (talk) 14:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks  — AARON • ^TALK 14:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit conflicts

Edit conflicts are causing confusion in the GA comments section. I have no intention of deleting or refactoring comments. -Ojorojo (talk) 17:32, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, your revision edit shows that mine was removed after I had already posted. If you are in an edit conflict, as I have learnt, you simply copy whatever you have written, then refresh the page, and see what has happened. That way, you can check what has been updated without losing what you have written. If needed, paste what you have copied.  — AARON • ^TALK 17:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

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Merge discussion

It's clear from the articles that "You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)" and "You Don't Love Me (Willie Cobbs song)" are connected. The consensus is that renditions of a song by other artists should not have separate articles (see WP:SONGCOVER). A rendition doesn't have to be a strict copy or "cover song" as the term was originally used. Several articles include substantially different arrangements of a song[^1,2,3].

Should the articles be merged? Depending on the responses, this may be turned into a formal request for comments, so please preface your discussions with "Merge", "Don't merge", or "Comment". —Ojorojo (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Don't merge. "You Don't Love Me (Willie Cobbs song)" is its own song, with its own history. It is not a footnote to or derivation of "You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)".

The dancehall adaptation "You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)" may be derived from Cobbs' "You Don't Love Me", but (a review of its article confirms) it has taken on a life of its own in the modern era. It appears on the merits of being repeatedly covered itself by such name artists as Rihanna and Beyoncé and its durable contemporary popularity to deserve its own article.Wikiuser100 (talk) 11:49, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Placement of audio

Template:Infobox song says:

"misc: This is not a space for miscellaneous information or comments. It allows for the use of subtemplates, including Template:Extra chronology, Template:Extra track listing, Template:Extra album cover, Template:Audio sample, and Template:External music video. Please refer to the template pages for explanations on their use."

Doesn't this also include External music videos that are audio only? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but for multiple YouTube links, EL is better than the infobox. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

I see. Why is that? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Personnel

Any ideas as a reliable source for musicians? I looked over at No, No, No (Dawn Penn album), with no luck. Discogs has some info. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)