Talk:Worcestershire sauce/Archive 1

Untitled

Presumably the gentlemen referenced here is Arthur Marcus Cecil Sandys, 3rd Baron Sandys (1798-1863). However his name does not appear in our list of governor's of Bengal (Governor-General of India) or in this list. so methinks the story has got mangled along the road somewhere. Mintguy (T) 04:02, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm unsure where /Wus-t9r-sh9r/ comes from. In England it is correctly pronounced as /Wus-t9r/ sauce and spelt Worcestershire Sauce. This is just one of those things.

I'm guessing that correctly it is /Wus-t9r-sh9r/, but just that Worcestershire is commonly (almost always?) abbreviated to Worcester (pron. /Wus-t9r/). Just a guess. zoney ♣ talk 01:14, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

With there being two brands (the original being with the -shire) many people don't know the difference, as proven by the problems Sudan I caused for Lea & Perrins. It's just become a short form (ie. lazy) alternative and is not the correct way to pronounce it. violet/riga (t) 21:04, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is it that Lea & Perrins is Worcestershire Sauce, and others are Worcester Sauce ? -- Beardo 04:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I found another brand worcestershire sauce made in the UK. "Crosse & Blackwell" made by Premier Ambient Products (UK) Ltd. But on the Crosse & Blackwell website I cannot find any worcestershire sauce...is it only for export purpose or something? I live in the Netherlands.--83.81.35.249 (talk) 16:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I am American and in my experience it is either pronounced /Wus-t9r-sh9r/ or /Wus-ch9r-st9r-sh9r-sh9r-sh9r/ sauce with progressively longer pauses between syllables. Perhaps it's best not to list this second pronunciation in the article. However, it might be a good idea to explain how the sauce's popularity spread and the sauce's appearance in popular culture such in the cartoon South Park where it was used as embalming fluid creating zombies.Onionhound 10:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Let me attempt to clear all this up. This is as far as I understand a result of Lea & Perrins marketing. In England it is called Worcester Sauce (pronounced Wuss-ter) after the city. In America for marketing purposes it is called Worcestershire Sauce (Wuss-ter-shire) after the county and comes in a pretty bottle.--Pypex 00:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Completely False. It's always been Worcestershire Sauce look at this bottle from an ad from 1928 and the writ from 1906 on http://www.worcestercitymuseums.org.uk/mag/spirit/spsauce.htm - it's just people have usually called it Worcester, because people always make things easier for themselves. Jooler

That site doesn't exactly directly address the issue, additionaly my statement is derived from a BBC documentery on the subject.--Pypex 12:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Actualy on second thoughts Website Vs TV doesnt make for much of an argument and you may well be right. I'll check it out at Worcester Museum next time im in the city (quite frequently.)--Pypex 13:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The evidence is before your eyes. It was caleld Worcestershire sauce in 1906 and thet fought a legal action to preserve the name and it has had Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle in the UK since at least 1928. Jooler 19:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

References to South Park, like a dash of Worcestershire sauce itself, always add a note of flavor and depth. --Wetman 18:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

duuuuudes ... just because it is frequently called Worcester (woosta) sauce, doesn't mean Worcestershire is correctly pronounced woosta. that would be like trying to convince people that the correct pronunciation of 'Robert' is 'Bob'. It's just a simple fact that "Worcester Sauce" is a common alternate name, despite the label. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.172.99.15 (talk) 08:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Sudan I

If I understand correctly, there never was any Sudan I contamination in Worcestershire sauce. So why have all the links at the bottom of the page to Sudan I information - wouldn't these sit better on the Sudan I page?

Even if I am wrong (entirely possible), there seems to be a very strong emphasis on what was a brief event (the food dye scare).

I'm not editing the page directly in case I am missing something - always best to hesitate before deleting someone elses work ;-)

No Sudan I contamination in Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce - the contamination came from other brands - which are surely also subject of this article. -- Beardo 04:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Origin of "Gip jup", and the Army Report

The article currently says: The Cantonese name for this sauce is "gip jup". It is unknown how this Chinese name is derived from the original English name.

When I read "gip jup" I immediately thought it sounded somewhat like "catsup" or "ketchup"... perhaps the name comes from that? I can easily imagine a situation in which the Cantonese, if they already knew "catsup", could have thought this was simply another variety of the popular foreign sauce.

On a less related note, does anyone have any ideas on where to find the 17-page Army report on how to buy Worcestershire Sauce? I'm very interested in reading it, but have no idea where to start looking.

--69.2.248.251 21:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Mac Newbold, mac at macnewbold dot com

According to the wiki article on "Ketchup" and dictionary.com's entry, the origin of the word is Chinese and it was originally a sauce made from pickled fish, which is almost Worcestershire sauce. Chane 12:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sudan I sections

Why is so much space in the article given over to the brief Sudan I scare for one brand of worcestershire sauce in 2005? It verges on an undue weight issue. It was positioned high in the article too (which I've now fixed). It does not seem to be particularly relevant to an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is not a news report archive. I recommend a severe cutting down or better, a cutting out altogether Bwithh 19:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Removing this section now as unjustified undue weight/unencyclopedic - Wikipedia is not a news report archive and this brief scare did not have significant long term consequences (the original contaminatin was in chilli powder - should the story be given its own section in Chili powder as well?). Bwithh 10:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Can someone add a pronunciation that most people can actually understand? I bet the people that don't know how to properly say it also don't know IPA, so an IPA pronunciation does no good for those who need it. Qutezuce 21:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I added an old pronunciation from an old revision of this article. If it's not right, someone please improve it. Qutezuce 21:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Wuhster-shuh would be the way RP English pronounces the American name Plutonium27 13:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Wooster is the RP pronunciation for worcestershire Michael Fourman 22:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No! Wooster-shuh is the RP pronunciation for Worcestershire. Wooster is Worcester. 92.4.120.20 (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

On a related note, is it worth including (only to refute) the 'What's this here sauce' derivation of the name? Omassey (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Trivial cruft

Let's not start this here: "'In the South Park episode Pinkeye, a bottle of Worcestershire Sauce tips over and empties into embalming fluid, turning the corpse into a zombie." This note might be inserted at the South Park episode. Not here, where it does not serve the reader. --Wetman 04:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree! LDHan 08:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Worcestershire sauce

Are the sauces mentioned in this section actually Worcestershire sauce or at least generic Worcester sauces? Perhaps they are actually Worcestershire sauces made by Lea & Perrin but adapted for the Japanese market? Or are they just a spicy and fruity sauce called "Worcestershire sauce"? Unless they have some connection with Lea & Perrin, or is a generic Worcester sauce, I suggest they would more appropriate in articles such as Japanese condiments or Japanese cuisine. LDHan 08:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

No, in Japan Usutaa Sauce is a different sauce invented in Japan. It is based on the original Lee and Perrin Worcestershire sauce but ingredients are different. They are sweeter and a bit less sour than the original. The ingredients of Japanese version of Usuta sauce are (in the case of Bull-dog brand); vegetables/fruits(apple, tomato, onion, prune, carrot, apricot), vinegar, sugar, salt, hydolyzed protein, yeast extract, spices, dried sardine extract. People use it in daily life, and it is one of the most popular sauce together with soy sauce (every household has one). There is a great controversy of interest over whether you eat a sunny-side-up with Usuta sauce or with soy sauce (the result is 50:50, I think). Usuta sauce is so famous and popular in Japan that most Japanese don't know the taste (or even the existence) of the original Worcestershire sauce. The original can be obtained only in stores that deal imported foods, but the Japanese Usuta sauce can be purchased in every supermarket and convenience store.

On the use of the Japanese version of Usuta Sauce... No form of worcester sauce is used for 'Katsudon". I think there is an argument for a variation of Worcestershire Sauce in the other dishes mentioned in the current version of the article. Jdcounselling (talk) 10:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, in most cases Katsudon is seasoned with soy sauce-based salty-sweet sauce, but in particular areas in Japan, there is a dish called "Sosu katsudon" which means Katsudon with Usuta sauce. The most famous places are Komagane and Aizu-Wakamatsu (see J version wiki for Katsudon [1]).--83.81.35.249 (talk) 16:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The Gambler's Wife?

I've never heard of this novel, "The Gambler's Wife," which was allegedly attributed to Poe in America in 1845. Now, just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not true, obviously, but I'm hoping a source for that claim can be added. It's not particularly consequential to this article anyway so if no source can be found, I'd recommend removing it. --Midnightdreary 16:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is a true statement (i.e. it was written by Grey but published in the States with Poe as the author) but it is a bit random and off-topic for a footnote... I've removed it.--Isotope23 17:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Nicely done. Thanks for your quick response! I'll have to look this one up again. None of the three Poe biographies I have mention "The Gambler's Wife." --Midnightdreary 04:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

garum-style fish sauce or tamarind sauce?

I disagree that Worcestershire sauce tastes like a garum. Nam pla tastes like a garum. To me, the dominant flavor in WS is tamarind, but this ingredient is given short shrift in the article. Perhaps it is a question of palate. Of course, this makes perfect sense when considering the sauce's provenance. Fresh tamarind condiments are de rigeur on the Indian subcontinent. Tamarind and lemon are the two most common acidizers, as I understand it, in the cuisine. This has continued in the US, at least, where a separate dish of thin tamarind fresh chutney is almost universally served with meals--usually without vinegar. So I'd call WS a tamarind/vinegar condiment with strong notes of anchovies made pungent by fermentation. I'd like to make some reference to this, but I cannot claim to have much knowledge about the history of the sauce itself. But I can look. Disagreement? NaySay 15:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd disagree that tamarind is the dominant flavor in Worcestershire sauce... at least not in the commercially popular brands like L&P or Heinz... at least not so much as HP Sauce is dominated by tamarind. That said, I agree the garum comparison is wrong as well. As you've said though, this may merely be a question of palate. I always seem to get the onion, anchovies, and molasses with the tamarind below those flavors mellowing the whole concoction out. Of course this whole conversation has now succeeded in making me hungry for samosas with tamarind chutney.--Isotope23 ^talk 15:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so I went back to my bottle of Lea & Perrins and gave it another careful taste. I've got to say that tamarind still predominates, but I will concede that I had missed the strong note of molasses, because my palate has been distracted by the vinegar. I'd now say tamarind/vinegar/molasses. I guess I'm now slightly more aware of the anchovy. And of course we've been ignoring the strong influence of chilli pepper. If found that the larger the taste sample, however, the more the tamarind is masked. You know, I wonder if this is a function of how L&P is made here in the US, in Fairlawn, NJ, as opposed to the UK. I find that almost all UK products which are re-assembled here have been markedly revamped. (I ALWAYS feel like eating pakoras with tamarind chutney!) NaySay 20:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course this is all original research, but I'll have another taste of L&P when I get home; you may be onto something with the country of origin. I won't bore you with a rant of how HP Sauce was better back in the day...--Isotope23 ^talk 21:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, everything was better back in the day. You wouldn't BELIEVE what Schwepp's tonic and ginger ale tastes like here! It's just not at all the same product. And getting anchovy paste and raw egg in your Caesar salad dressing is pretty much unheard-of now--at least here. And the frequent distaste for anchovy flavoring in the US may be accounting for the reformulation--if one exists. NaySay 13:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, don't make me all misty eyed for a real Caesar salad...

I finally got home this weekend and pulled out a bottle of L&P. I can taste the tamarind more than I had recalled. What would be helpful is finding some sort of source for the flavor...--Isotope23 ^talk 00:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce in the United States is made with high fructose corn syrup, versus sugar in the UK.

also for what it's worth, the "history" involving a sauce made of curry powder is total bollocks. curry powders don't contain anchovy; a fermented anchovy sauce has to be designed as such from the start, and worcestershire sauce contains barely any spice beyond clove and chilli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.172.99.15 (talk) 08:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Kosher version

I moved a piece about Orthodox Jewish customs out of the "see also" back to the preceeding section, but it needs attention from someone who can explain why there's no anchovy.Ning-ning (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

HIgh fructose corn Syrup.

• I find the labels to have the following ingredient listed second on both L&P and Heinz: High fructose corn syrup. 74.34.7.1 (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

(Moved the above comment from article --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC))

I'm in Canada, and (surprisingly) the ones here have the English ingredients. High fructose corn syrup? Yeech. --76.10.154.243 (talk) 19:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I wanted to add a note about the difference in taste between the traditional English version and the American version that uses HFCS. I added a sentence to the American section "Some reviewers report that the taste of high fructose corn syrup in this new formulation detracts from the authentic clean spicy taste by making it more sickly sweet which the original (still available in the UK) is not" I added a reference to an Amazon customer review of the product. My change was quickly reverted, saying that a single customer review is not notable.

I would like to find a way to include this information about the difference in taste compared to the traditional English version because I think it is a salient fact about the US formulation. The L&P, formulation was changed shortly after they were bought out by Heinz in 2006. Further more L&P claims on their FAQ that they are still using the same recipe created in 1837, which is most definitely not true, since HFCS was not around then.

I also believe that the citation about of user review noting the difference in flavor is notable. There are a number of other reviews and articles that point out similar taste differences in HFCS based products compared to their sugar based version. Would addition citations make this difference more notable? --Pjgust (Talk) 03:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC))

kosher recipes

The vegetarian option section is unclear. It seems to state both that orthodox jews do and do-not eat meat and fish together. Which is true? Can someone with a source correct? --Brideshead (talk) 15:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

They don't eat meat and fish together, but the fish ingredient is considered nullified if there is less then 1/60th. --85.250.237.248 (talk) 12:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Assessment

For an article to be rated B class there should preferably be no major issues requiring maintenance banners or inline tagging. The article is clearly still in need of a clean up, splitting into sections, and general reorganisation of text. On problems of pronunciation of British English words and place names, the local resident members of the Wikiproject Worcestershire are always ready to lend a hand.--Kudpung (talk) 08:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up

I've copyedited the intro without affecting the article's content, cutting duplications, and unnecessary Wikilinking of common nouns, and made some minor improvements to typos, caps, etc, and style in the body. However, verifiable citations are still needed for some of the sections, and several inline citations need engineering to display correctly in the reflist.--Kudpung (talk) 10:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The Secret Sauce, or the secret source...

I have been unable to locate any references to The Secret Sauce, by Brian Keogh, (1997). According to the article, the book was published privately. Neverthless, to be cited in the Wikipedia, its existence needs to be verifiable. Does anyone have a copy of it, or imprint details? Unverifiable sources may be deleted.--Kudpung (talk) 16:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The Secret Sauce: a History of Lea & Perrins by Brian Keogh ISBN 9780953216918--Edgewise (talk) 23:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Other types of Worcestershire sauce

This section is currently a mess. It could be renamed 'Similar sauces', or it could be cleaned up to include only Worcester(shire) sauce (removing Hendersons and Sōsu). At the moment it tries to do both, making it confused. Does anyone have any suggestions?

While I'm here, I'm also trying to think of a more general name for the 'Vegetarian substitutions' section, as it now covers vegetarian, Kosher and gluten-free. Something like 'Substitutions for restricted diets' maybe? GyroMagician (talk) 13:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

When I copyedited the article I thought the same, but I didn't actually dare to be bold and change much of the content. I actually believe that the article should be entirely about Worcestershire Sauce, and any similar products that are marketed by other brands using the same name, but it seems to have become an article about all kinds of fish sauces. I think the article needs radically pruning to stay on focus.--Kudpung (talk) 14:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Nobody objected (yet), so I've deleted the 'Japanese Worcester sauce' and 'Hendersons relish' sections. I've also renamed 'Vegetarian substitutions' to 'Special diets' to reflect the actual content of the section. GyroMagician (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Supported. The article is still a bit of a mess and needs more work and possible deletions to keep it focussed. We have it rated as C class, and I've reduced the B class to C too. Definitely not B class by anybody's reckoning.--Kudpung (talk) 13:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Object - the Japanese worcester sauce is labelled as such on the bottle - is a clear derivative and shows how the product has become ubiqitous in many cultures, albeit modified. It should stay. Kunchan (talk) 08:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

If it is labelled as Worcester sauce, then it should stay. I don't really understand how Usutā sōsu translates to WS, but then I don't know Japanese, so that's not too surprising! From the previous entry, I had the impression that is was a similar-tasting sauce, rather than the same thing, but it sounds like I was wrong. I've been trying to tidy up this article to focus on Worcs sauce, rather than anything one might substitute for it. GyroMagician (talk) 11:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Usuta is just a romanization of the original japanification of the English - a case of doubly lost in translation. Yet say it out loud - U (as in woo) SU (as in sue) TA (as in ta) & SO (as in sew) and SU (as in sue) - i'm not good at lingusitics ,(but do speak Japanese, and I think you can hear the original word. It's also on the label in English too 8-)

Kosher?

Any ideas where the kosher comments come from? Fish are considered pareve (neutral) in Judaism, and can be eaten with either meat or dairy. Furthermore, where did this "1/60" thing come from? It's either kosher or it's not. If it comes into contact with a non-kosher item, food immediately and irrevocably becomes non-kosher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.220.85 (talk) 18:52, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It comes from ref 9 in the article (Star-K). It all sounds very odd to me, but then I know next to nothing about Judaism. If you're confident this is wrong, please go ahead and remove it (unless anyone else knows better?). GyroMagician (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Huh, so it is. According to http://www.star-k.org/cons-faqs-status.htm#fish , the prohibition is from the Talmud (middle-ages commentary), but not the Torah. I'd never heard of it, but I guess it's legitimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.220.85 (talk) 22:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

pronunciation

I've never heard it pronounced "wooster-shire sauce" and I've DEFINITELY never heard it pronounced "wooster sauce", although I suppose I don't typically associate with mongoloids. No, I'm pretty sure it is usually pronounced "wor-shester sauce". -66.41.19.135 (talk) 00:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I guess that makes me a Mongoloid then. Who grew up in Wooster-shire. Maybe it will help if you head over to Worcester and play the pronunciation example (first line)? English place names ending in -cester (Roman forts) are usually pronounced this way - Gloucester is another example. GyroMagician (talk) 08:53, 28 April 2010

I suppose I'd better join the Mogoloid club too - I'm another Worcestershirite who grew up in the county. --Kudpung (talk) 09:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

The American Heritage dictionary has /ˈwʊstərˌʃɪər/. My Oxford dictionary has an entry Worcester sauce: "/ˈwʊstə(r)/ GB, Worcestershire sauce /ˈwʊstəʃaɪə(r)/ US."

Of course, this doesn't prevent people from making deviant pronunciations. I believe my father calls it /ˈwərʃɨʃər/ sauce. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I think due to the worldwide confusion as to the pronunciation of this sauce that an audio file in the pronunciation part would be of great benefit. Alas, it will take someone who speaks clearer than me. Weetoddid (talk) 21:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The normal English pronunciation is wuster-sheer sauce. Try howjsay.com to hear it spoken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.70.90 (talk) 13:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

What are you all on about? There is a speech file. And its the way I and everyone I know have pronounced it for at least seventy years. And racial slurs are not acceptable in Wkipedia. Chevin (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The (non-rhotic) pronunciation in the audio file, however, does not match the IPA transcription given (which includes /r/). The (RP) English pronunciation given at the Collins English dictionary is /ˈwʊstəˌʃɪə/ or /ˈwʊstəˌʃə/ – add an /r/ after each /ə/ for rhotic accents. (That technicality aside, I quite agree that the "wor-shester" pronunciation originally suggested above is, at best, an idiosyncratic localism.) -- Picapica (talk) 21:05, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Lord Marcus Sandys

I'm not an expert on titles, but I do know that no actual lord should ever be referred to as Lord followed by given name. Lord followed by given name is a courtesy title applied to the younger sons of the nobility, as in the case of Lord Peter Wimsey. So Marcus Sandys would have been "Lord Marcus Sandys" (or possibly "The Honourable Marcus Sandys") only before the death of his elder brother, the 2nd Baron. Afterwards, he would have been simply "Lord Sandys". So the reference to the second Baron and confusion of names is entirely baseless, as far as I can see. Grant (talk) 12:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Images / international

This article is about a hugely traditional item from England. Whilst it is interesting to illustrate significantly different bottles y other brands, or of the original product as marketed in other countries, it is probably not advisable to rep[lace the lead image with a non standard, foreign product or packaging. --Kudpung (talk) 15:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Hm, but from what I see, both the old and that picture have a packaging in english. DarkoNeko x 21:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

A sound observation. To me, they both look like the same type of bottle, taken from different angles and in different settings, with different attributions as to where they are found. So for the purpose of informing readers about what a standard bottle of Worcestershire sauce looks like, the existing photo does the job, with an easier to read label. Therefore there is no information gain in replacing the existing photo with Diti's one. If Diti's purpose is to contribute something pertaining to the popularity of this product outside of the U.K., it would be more informative to me as a reader to see some text with citations from such things as newspapers or magazines, especially citations which can be easily verified online. Not only would that be more informative than look-alike photos with differnt attributions, but it would be better than entering into some sort of conflict over such look-alike photos. Regardless of the merits or weaknesses of various arguments, it's better to just keep moving forward if possible, and to find things on which to constructively collaborate rather than fight over. Regards Wotnow (talk) 23:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, the whole point of that, the thing that decided me to take 35 minutes of my time to take a photo, is simply to help a reader looking for an illustration. How so? Well, I thought, like what we do on the French-speaking Wikipedia, that between a 220×513px photo taken with a cellphone/compact camera, and a 1,975×2,970px photo of the same object taken with a DSLR, the latter was preferable. Kudpung reverted me, I never reverted back and just thought “Fine, I took a certain amount of time to produce a quality work, I am reverted in a couple of seconds by someone who proposes his help but doesn’t help, I’ll just stop contributing here”. I must say I neither care about the bottle, nor about the revert, I would have simply left, but then I am told on my userpage the things that constitute the raison d’être of my current userpage. The only thing I and a couple of other French sysops understood in Kudpung’s speech (because, yes, I asked for a confirmation that I wasn’t the one to find such a thing really rude) is that, for Kudpung, “the English Wikipedia is made for English contributors who must take English photographs of English products (mine are English) in an English country” (I do exaggerate a little, but it is very much what I perceive of his messages). Understand that I am a little bit disgusted of being treated like that, with smiles.

Now, I will just leave you with your work on the English-speaking Wikipedia, I will stop giving away my photos to Wikimedia Commons (it has always been a pleasure until now), and, as Wotnow says, “it's better to just keep moving forward if possible, and to find things on which to constructively collaborate rather than fight over”. I will just continue making interwikis.

PS: If you consider me as a troll—I hope not, but if you do, it is really not intended—, please don’t feed me and go ahead. Diti the penguin — 02:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't really understand what's happened here - KP, you're usually such a sensible editor, this doesn't make any sense. Clearly the location where a photo of a bottle of sauce is taken is irrelevant, unless the background contains something significant such as the factory where the sauce was made. In this case, a decent low-resoltuion photo was replaced with a decent high-resoltuion photo. I can't see a reason for not making the replacement. The following discussion is bizarre - I'll simple say that the 'English' part of the English WP only refers to the language it is written in. Anyone is free to mercilessly edit, wherever they are and wherever they come from. I hope Diti continues to contribute photos here on the English WP, and elsewhere. Now, can everybody "keep calm and carry on"? GyroMagician (talk) 09:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The irony of it all: the original picture was of a bottle found in The Netherlands, apparently... --MAURILBERT (talk) 22:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

International ingredients

You don't want to make too much of the British and the U.S. product without further investigation. The regulations in different countries about how ingredients are to be disclosed often result in the same product having seemingly different ingredients from country to country. This can be clearly seen if you look at the labeling on imported products where a sticker is placed over the original ingredients: same bottle, same ingredients, but different list of ingredients due to local regulations. In Japan where I live, imported peanut butter that contains "peanuts, corn syrup, salt" in the English ingredients is listed as containing "peanut powder, sugar, salt, 4th ingredient" in Japanese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.16.185.229 (talk) 12:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

New stuff goes at the bottom, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Ian.thomson (talk) 12:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Skip

Does anybody happen to know what the phrase "dumped in a skip" is supposed to mean?

'Notes from the 1800s were found by company accountant Brian Keogh dumped in a skip, which he rescued.' It seems a bit obscure. Is this some British expression? 174.92.99.81 (talk) 17:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Skip = dumpster - i.e. someone had thrown them away ;-) GyroMagician (talk) 20:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been researching this. To dump (or 'take a dump') is a slang expression for defecation; skip is an abbreviation for skipper, the captain of a cricket team. Thus 'dumped in a skip' means that someone has shat on the captain, a grave social error, i fear. Hope this helps. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 21:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Perfectly normal English usage. If we were to change every word in the encyclopedia that might just possibly used in a negative sense in some idiomatic expressions, it would not be conducive to progress. I am aware however that American do appear to prefer euphemisms, hence their calling a toilet a 'bathroom' or a 'rest rest room', though why anyone would want to take a rest or bathe in a stinking bog beats me. That said, you would perhaps like to replace the the word bog throughout the site with wet muddy ground because the Brits use it for 'toilet' ;) See: WP:ENGVAR. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

In American English, the "rest room" or "bath room" has a toilet (aka commode) in it - it will also have a sink and (usually) a shower or bathtub. :-) Restroom is typically the name for a public facility in the States. HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:31, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Image

The image is problematic &emdash; since the bottle is not full, at first glance it looks like the sauce could be clear instead of brown. Let's replace it with an image of a full bottle. 98.28.19.62 (talk) 06:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

We previously had an image of a full, stand-alone bottle which I uploaded (see File:Worcestershiresauce bottle.jpg. It was replaced by the current image. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

In view of recent edits perhaps we should revert to the original neutral image. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:45, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Seems like you're a bit obsessed by this. Didn't you read the bit above that says "a decent low-resoltuion photo was replaced with a decent high-resoltuion photo"? We prefer a high-resolution photograph over yours. I'm sorry, but you're just going to have to learn to live with that. 94.197.163.85 (talk) 11:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Erroneous citations

The citations for the claim that Holbrook's worcestershire sauce outsells Lea & Perrins in Australia are bogus. The first link is broken and the second makes no such claim at all. In fact, I don't recall even seeing any other brand sold in the supermarkets here besides Lea & Perrins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.129.230 (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

"Crockershire brand Worcestershire sauce made in Harden, NSW ..." http://www.sauceman.com.au/about%20sauce.htmlHammerFilmFan (talk) 23:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Really?

It is unlikely that the American product lable ingredients include "natural flavourings" - maybe natural flavorings is what is meant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.12 (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Remember that this is a report, not a verbatim quotation. Were this the French Wikipedia, the US ingredients might contain "épices diverses". Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Lea and Perrins

This article looks almost like an advertisement for the Lea and Perrin's brand of W.S, it reproduces L+P's fake and fanciful history, it doesn't even mention earlier brands like Churchill's or Twinberrow and Evans, or explain the connection with Worcester Lampreys. What has happened here? Glynhughes (talk) 17:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

We laid out a skeleton article, waiting for somebody knowledgable to come along and flesh out the full history. Are you that person? GyroMagician (talk) 06:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Bulldog Tonkatsu Sauce

IME this stuff tastes MUCH more like a steak sauce, e.g. HP, A1, etc. than worcestershire sauce although as I recall it's sweeter(not by enough to qualify as bbq sauce though) than those "steak" sauces.

Using A1, etc. on fish?! WTF?! Must be some nasty rotten fish to use such sauces on...

...and diving ENTIRELY offtopic, HP sauce. Used to be able to get it in the US at a reasonable price(made in Canada), but the only thing that I see nowadays is the overpriced version from the wooden cloggers since they have to swim it over... the english(mostly from Northern england, around manchester) that I used to work with called it the "brown sauce"... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4:1D40:1C5:7C25:3FD9:8787:98AC (talk) 05:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Process?

The article mentions historical speculation but how is this stuff actually made? Should'nt we be talking of what the raw materials actually are and how the fermentation occurs? B. Srinivasa Sasidhar 08:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bssasidhar (talk • contribs)

Its not fermented, but aged. Only the anchovies are fermented, but prior to the mix.

Special Diets

User:Crp has proposed that the Special Diets part of the article is "irrelevant". I argue that it is relevant as in many recipes and prepared foods, Worcestershire sauce is the only ingredient that falls outside a restricted diet. Many competitors to Lea & Perrins do so on their suitability for special diets. I have added some additional citations to the Special Diets section to demonstrate its importance. Vagary (talk) 22:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Worcestershire sauce/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Improve article with a few modern pictures and remove trivia -- Warfreak 11:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC) the article is very messy, basic things like what it is made from or how are mangled with trivia that doesn't even make much sense — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.6.86.137 (talk) 23:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Last edited at 23:11, 11 February 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 16:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Nonsense on the History and origins

Th origins is from Burma, Bengal - through south east asia. Please name Roman dishes that are still being prepared after close to 2000 years. The British in BURMA and next door in Bengal would of had ample contact with South east asian/ Chinese fish sauce in during their time their. they never really knew how it was made so they tried to concoct it with western ingredients, ingredients form the colonies. This is exactly the same thing they dd when they wanted to prepare dishes they had, they collected some spices cut it together and thats how curry powder came about.This is south east asian in origin not European. :Please name some dishes adopted from Europe during the same period, and I dont mean from French or German (which would be obvious as they are close)...but Italian, eastern European etc. We cannot because the British didn't spend any time or lived in those areas.Also an ingredient is tamarind, which is liberally used in south east asia, in Europe they dont know what it is.Starbwoy (talk) 18:08, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Please note that talk pages are not forums for discussion of topics. Here on Wikipedia we have to rely on reliable published sources, not what would have happened or what must have happened - that's just personal opinion. As for dishes adopted from other countries, that is out of the scope of the article but is of course discussed in other articles on English cuisine. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

US Version ingredients/nutrition info needs updating

The US version no longer uses high fructose corn syrup or hydrolyzed soy and corn proteins, according to the bottle I have on hand. I've updated the ingredient list to reflect this, however the bit about the differences in sugar and sodium content between the US and UK versions needs to be looked at to see if it needs any changes. According to the current label, there is 1 gram of sugar/carbs and 65mg of sodium in a 1 tsp/5mL serving in the American version. If someone could compare this to the UK version and update the article if needed, that would be great. — Bardbom (talk) 10:15, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Fragment

"The resulting product was so strong that it was considered inedible, and a barrel of the sauce was exiled to the basement of Lea & Perrins' premises. Looking to make space in the storage area a few years later, the chemists decided to try it again, discovering that the sauce had fermented and mellowed and was now palatable. In 1838 the first bottles of "Lea & Perrins Worcestershire sauce" were released to the general public."

The above seems to be the last part of a tantalizing narrative, the first part of which seems to be missing. Perhaps some expert on this sauce and it's history can find the missing part?

The problem is that there have been various variations of the story circulating in Worcester for many years. My own knowledge passed down from my father is roughly as described in the Wiki entry but that Lea was the chemist, Perrins the money, and that Lea's pharmacy was in Broad Street, Worcester. How much if any of this is true is difficult to tell as written evidence in C19 Worcester books also seem to have differing stories Ianmurray5 (talk) 00:37, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Talking about garum here is strange. Garum is entirely fish and salt, and is about the same as a Thai fish sauce, Worcestershire is nothing at all like either of them. If you go into a supermarket and look at the labels of the products currently on the market, most of them are vegan and don't have any fish at all. Some do have some fish sauce, but it is a minor ingredient. Generally it is soy sauce, (or fermented wheat in a style similar to soy sauce) with vinegar, sugar, and spices. 76.105.216.34 (talk) 20:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

How about an etymology section? It was recently nominated the most difficult to pronounce word in the English language... Panewithholder (talk) 01:19, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Etymology is about origins not about pronunciation. BMK (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

And pronunciation has been covered by the City of Worcester talk page. Ianmurray5 (talk) 00:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Add two varieties for Japan

How about adding two more variety for Japan, in particular Doro sauce ja:どろソース, and Otafuku sauce, both are favored in many areas in Japan in 10 years or so. Doro sauce manufactured in Kobe is very thick (Image file is Doro_sauce_360.JPG.) Otafuku sauce ja:オタフクソース from Hiroshima Prefecture is much sweeter than most Tonkatsu sauce, but not as thick as Doro sauce. I would be happy to translate from Japanese for your review. --Omotecho (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Doro sauce Does "Doro" mean "mud"? Is it made in Kobe, Hyogo by the Oliver company? Is it the exact same sauce as "Oli sauce" and "Tamari sauce" made by other companies?

Otafuku sauce Is Otafuku a company in Hiroshima city? Is their main sauce called "Okonomi sauce" for Okonomiyaki? Is this a sauce they invented?

Thank you --Bod (talk) 01:49, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

• How about just keeping this article about what its title suggests? Worcesterhire Sauce and anything that is specifically marketed by various manufacturers under tat name. Anything else does not belong here and should find a home in another article about condiments. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:03, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Other countries

In the 19th century and the 1st decade of the 20th century Russian and Polish published sources refer to a condiment of acknowledged or alleged English manufacture —— frequently attributed to John Burgess & Son Ltd. and to Crosse & Blackwell —— popularly known by Russian and Polish cooks of that time as "kabul sauce" or "mogul sauce", which they say is similar to Worcestershire sauce and in many recipes functionally interchangeable with it. There are several references to "kabul sauce" in Maria Ochorowicz-Monatowa's 1910 Polish cook book. Russian documents recounting the history of Olivier salad refer to the condiment as "kobul" or "mogul" sauce. Both sources call it an English sauce, and both say it is "similar" to Worcestershire sauce. The Russian documents name both John Burgess & Son and Crosse & Blackwell as its manufacturers.Grandmotherfrompeoria (talk) 04:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Holbrooks Worcester Sauce

As mentioned above, Lea & Perrins did not have exclusivity on this product. Holbrooks was also making the sauce from 1860, but in Birmingham, UK. Now based in Australia: https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Holbrooks http://letslookagain.com/tag/history-of-holbrooks-worcestershire/ http://goodmanfielder.com/portfolio/holbrooks/

GlassyEye (talk) 09:03, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Lea & Perrins

Worcestershire sauce is a generic term like ketchup and not HP Sauce - and the article should reflect that. Currently, this article puts way too much focus on a specific brand of the sauce and often reads like an advert. 4/4 images are from this specific brand. It even goes as far as using the marketing tagline and company website in the infobox! The direction of this article must be changed towards being more brand neutral. BananaBork (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Lea and Perrins is the original product but yes there are other Worcestershire Sauces. In the US French's has been around since 1941.Voss749 (talk) 16:47, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Made in the town of Worchester?

I think we need more information on how "The ingredients are allowed to mature for 18 months before being blended and bottled in Worcester, where the exact recipe is kept a secret." Since there are many different companies that make Worchestershire sauce, it must be very logistically complicated for them all to ship their mixed product to Worchester, to be stored in various facilities for 18 months until the aged products can be sent back to their respective makers again, bottled in their various different containers and then distributed to the world. You'd think in this modern age of corporate competitiveness someone would have thought to try cutting this step out and trying to age their specific brand elsewhere to save costs. I know it wouldn't be so accurate to call it "Worchestershire sauce" then, but I can't picture that stopping most food companies. As for the "exact recipe is kept a secret", is there some central, shared directory where all these companies register their respective varieties of sauce in a strong, locked room somewhere? Or do they have some complex licensing agreement worked out whereby all the companies access a single, original recipe and make a product based off of it? The conspiracy theorist in me would speculate whether they make all this stuff in a single factory, and then ship it off to be bottled in the labelling of a dozen other companies.

Or, of course, there is ONE brand of Worchestershire sauce that is still aged in Worchester, England, and this is totally untrue for the rest of the lot, which is like saying that "American whiskey is aged in barrels in Lynchburg Tennessee". There is not just one "Worchestershire sauce", and hasn't been for a long time. 70.109.132.119 (talk) 20:25, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

The sentence you quote immediately follows a sentence specifying that it's talking the Worcestershire sauce originally developed by Lea and Perrins, not imitations by other companies. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:36, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Your "Worchester" typo informs me that you're not pronouncing the word correctly. :) --sugarfish (talk) 21:11, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Since Lea & Perrins do not own the concept of worcestershire sauce the idea of "imitations" is kind of off base. French's as an example tastes nothing like L&P and does not try to. Voss749 (talk) 12:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The archive refers to Twinberrow and Evans, producing such products by 1830. Sauces Sources: [2] [3] [4] [5] . Partnership ended in 1837 page 176 TGCP (talk) 20:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Holbrooks

The following current sources, for example, use "Holbrooks", without an apostrophe:

• Woolworths Australia listing (and label on bottle in that listing)
• Coles of Australia listing (and bottle label)
• Amazon Australia listing (and bottle label)
• Campbells Australia listing (and bottle label)
• Mouths of Moms listing (and bottle label)
• Goodman Fielding listing (and bottle label)

All of those sources are Australian. Goodman Fielding are the makers of Holbrooks Worcestershire Sauce.

And yet the apostrophe - which I recently removed - has been restored to the name of the product in this article on the basis of a single citation, to a United States publication, published by a trade body for makers of a different type of sauce, and which discusses Holbrooks sauce only in the context of the 19th century, in the UK. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Soy

The article mentions under "Lee and Perrins" that the company stopped usung soy sauce during the war. But the preceding list of incredients doesn't include soy. This is the first mention of soy sauce, so it's rather confusing to learn that they stopped using it, when they weren't using it in the first place. Soy sauce is not on the ingredients list of my bottle of Lee and Perrins.

Then there's the section "China, Hong Kong, Taiwan", which discusses some sauces based on soy, called "spicy soy sauce" or "wooster sauce", containing no anchovies. These are not Worcestershire Sauce. And they are apparently not named Worcestershire Sauce either.

I propose to remove references to soy, and the section about "spicy soy sauce".

Regarding pronunciation, the name "Worcestershire" is certainly hard to pronounce if you're drunk! So it's true that many people just say "Worcester Sauce". But that's just laziness; similarly, when lacing a Bloody Mary with sauce, it might be referred to as "a dash of woosters". But nobody pronounces "Worcestershire" as "Worcester" - that's simply incorrect, like mistaking a shoe for a shoelace.

MrDemeanour (talk) 12:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I've removed two sections dealing with sauces that are apparently labelled as "Worcestershire Sauce" in some places in the Far East, but that are evidently based on soy sauce.

I now also propose to remove one reference, that was relied on by one of the deleted sections; the reference is to a PDF at soyinfo.com. I do not think that is a WP:RS for these purposes.

That reference contains a purported history of Worcestershire Sauce, that is relied on to support a statement in the lede. So I would at the same time delete that statement.

MrDemeanour (talk) 18:49, 8 November 2021 (UTC)