Talk:White Shepherd/Archive 1

Archive 1

White GSDs - is material copyvio?

(Moved from Talk:German Shepherd Dog. Elf | Talk 21:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))

The information that was recently added about white GSDs came direcly from the "source" site listed, so it's a possible copyvio. I left a message for the anon who posted, asking if s/he owned the copyright on that source page. What should be done with the paragraphs in the meantime? Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

We've queried westlord.com previously about using material & we seem to have their gracious approval; see Talk:Maremma Sheepdog. Meanwhile, we already have a (badly written) article on White Shepherd Dog that's apparently really supposed to be under Berger Blanc Suisse according to our master List of dog breeds; this text needs to be removed from here & moved there & a clear reference to the other article inserted here. Since you asked. :-) Elf | Talk 21:42, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Have fun with that, Elf :) Lachatdelarue (talk) 01:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Moved section to Berger Blanc Suisse; haven't done any merging or editing, though. Elf | Talk 21:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio again

See first topic above. Might also appear at [[1]] but that's not where it (apparently) came from. Not sure how to determine real source, but we seem to have permission from someone who thinks they have the (c). Elf | Talk 00:51, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

I have cleaned up the article removed the majourity of it as copyvio, and even if we did have permission (see "copyvio again" above), the majourity of it was simply babble about about the breed clubs and their histories over the breed itself, so I saw this as sufficient grounds as to remove it from the article anyway. I may pick at it again later and return any scraps of useful info that i find within it.

Concerning the Info from westlord.com, I found the majourity of this about the breed clubs also, so removed the parts concerning that but I would like to see the info about them as a working dog returned (i will probably do it later). Just let me take this one step at a time damn you! ;) I have also made little changes to the appearance section (originally from westlord) to try and make it a bit more original, although my attempts at this time are a little pathetic. Tekana (O.o) Talk 16:40, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. :-) Elf | Talk 16:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

White Shepherds - are they a breed?

(Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds. Elf | Talk 21:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Just noticed we don't have this on the breed list. Does anyone know for sure whether there is actually a White Shepherd/White Swiss Shepherd/White GSD breed club or do I have to put finding out on my 'to do' list? Quill 06:08, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A while back I talked to a lady with a white GSD who said that there's a group (club?) that particularly promotes the white GSD, but I didn't get the impression that it was as a separate breed. Elf | Talk 06:27, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The SV considers white a disqualifing fault so, as far as the FCI is concerned there is no such thing as a white German Shepherd Dog. I'm not sure about the GSDCA/AKC, but I think they also disqualify white. White shepherds can breed true and there are breeders who specialize in breeding white shepherds. There are organizations devoted to white shepherds. I'd say they are as much a breed as Shilo Shepherds, etc. Personally, I'd qualify them as a breed simply to distinguish them from "real" GSDs, which are not white. Of course I'd say the GSDCA/AKC GSD is a separate breed from the SV/FCI GSD for the same reason, so you probably shouldn't listen to me. Dsurber 19:07, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This discussion illustrates the problem of using a strict reading of the breed standard to determine a dog's breed. This sounds counter-intuitive, but allow me to give an example: My dog is a Standard Poodle. The breed standard calls for a docked tail. My dog's tail is au naturale, i.e., undocked. Does this mean she is not a Poodle? Of course not. It only means that she cannot expect to compete in conformation. Similarly, a litter of GSD's may contain dogs of all sorts of colors. A white coat may be a major fault, but the dog is still a GSD. Breed clubs create strict standards to breed towards. Said standards are purely arbitrary, and don't mean a thing when it comes to genetics. In my opinion, white GSD's do not constitute a separate breed, but they are a part of the current "designer dog" fad, so a separate short page, pointing to the GSD page, might be in order.The Dogfather 20:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mostly I agree with you. Just because a dog has a disqualifying fault doesn't mean it isn't a member of the breed. However, white shepherds breed true and there is an active, organized community that treats them as a separate breed. My point is mostly a negative one. I would not want to see a picture of a white shepherd on the GSD page as an example of a GSD since white is a disqualifying fault. There are people who breed white shepherds and people who buy them. IMHO info about white shepherds does not belong on the GSD page other than to say white is a disqualifying fault. Where should info on white sheperds go (if anywhere). IMHO on the White Shepherd breed page. But as I wrote earlier, I think the GSDCA/AKC shepherd is a separate breed, so you shouldn't listen to me. Dsurber 21:16, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ah yes, poor Quill's brain, addled though it may be, latches onto words, and Quill seems to remember reading something definitive at some point. So I just searched. According to the Aust White Swiss Shepherd Dog Club, the FCI recognized them in 2002. (I don't yet know if this is true.) From UKCdogs.com: The White Shepherd was recognized by the United Kennel Club on April 14, 1999. As far as I can tell, so far the breed name is a matter of preference. (I foresee another JRT-PRT-RT-PJRT fight coming up).

The American White Shepherd Club says: IS THE WHITE SHEPHERD A PUREBRED?

Yes. The White Shepherd is registered as a German Shepherd Dog, color white, with the American Kennel Club (AKC) and the Canadian Kennel Club (CKC). The White Shepherd is registered as a White Shepherd with the American White Shepherd Association (AWSA) and the United Kennel Club (UKC).

I have no idea what the Swiss have to say; I think there are active breed clubs there as well. Quill tired. Quill want coffee.

Quill 21:58, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It sounds similar to the situation with the American Cocker Spaniel. They compete as separate colors (Black, ASCOB, and Parti), but are the same breed. According to this website, white was one of the original colors.The Dogfather 02:14, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The FCI recognized it as a Berger Blanc Swiss, in 2002 Group 1 Section 1, Sheepdogs. I think that pretty much settles it, for our purposes, since we have breed pages on 'breeds' (cough, splutter) with less of a pedigree (so to speak). So I'd suggest adding them to the list of dog breeds under the FCI name with a cross-reference at 'White Shepherd' and adding a note into the GSD article. Opinions? Quill 21:21, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What if you did something like what I did with the Corded Poodle? It is not technically a distinct breed, but many people think of it as such. It's not on the list of dog breeds, but I thought it was. Anyway, I don't have a problem with a separate listing for 'White Shepherd'. We have to take our audience into consideration, and there are going to be people looking for a listing for 'White Shepherd' who do not know that it's really just a white GSD (but we're going to tell them, right?)The Dogfather 22:51, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Elf | Talk 23:00, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The gene for white is not a mutation and has nothing at all to do with albinoism. The gene for white is a covering gene, and there is a colored dog under the white coat. The white gene is recessive that is why 2 white dogs always produce a white. 2 black German Shepherds will always produce black puppies because it is also a recessive gene.

The USA is not an FCI country. The AKC and the GSDCA does not recognize the white shepherd as a breed. Although white is a disqualifying color, it is only a disqualifying color in the conformation ring, and white German Shepherd Dogs are allowed to earn titles in any working class they want to, obedience, tracking, herding, agility, etc., as well as other German Shepherds who are long coated, blue, liver, or spotted. The White German Shepherd Dog Club International awards AKC GSDs who are white with breed championships.

The FCI have not made the white shepherd an official breed yet, it is only provisional, and this may be the case for a number of years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sisou (talk • contribs) 02:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Should be edited

Should be edited (not sure how to add in my own talk subject):

"(Even so, it is a genetic reality that the DNA coding for German Shepherd Dog colored coats will continue to circulate in the "pure" White Shepherd breed gene pool just white coat genes continue to circulate in the colored German Shepherd Dog breed gene pool.) "

First off I think it's supposed to be "just as white" rather than "just white"--second (and I won't edit this without asking--how is this at all a reality? White is a recessive gene. A white dog doesn't carry colored genes. So how exactly will colored dogs crop up in white breedings? Please clarify this bit!

Also--the breed is mispelled in the simplistic Schutzhund description as "Shepard" :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.15.77.116 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

npov

The huge, for the most part poorly or totally unreferenced section simply arguing for a merge of the breed standards is a clear violation of adherence to a neutral point of view. This is not a platform for breed advocates. VanTucky 01:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Updates and npov

A historical overview section has been added. Topic headings have been added along with some minor content restructuring to collect topical info under respective headings. Section noted under the npov comment has been edited down to remove tone of argument. Beachrunningdude 01:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

gallery

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate gallery of images. This is the article for white german shepherds, and an enormous gallery of every notably white breed of dog is absurd, and unencyclopedic. Content in this article should focus on the subject in question, and a gallery such as the latter one is not on-topic nor does it provide any valuable information about white shepherds. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Two points:

1. The two galleries are not "enormous" but small. In a nearly 78,000 byte article, a reduction by a mere 230 bytes is trivial.
2. The galleries make the article both more interesting and more encyclopedic. — Athaenara ✉ 00:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, I think they make the article, which already has 10+ images, look bloated. VanTucky ^(talk) 00:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Diffs to aid WP:3O

Sample diffs to aid whoever responds to the request for a Third opinion: Beachrunningdude's addition and VanTucky's removal of the images in dispute. — Athaenara ✉ 04:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Such galleries of photos belong on Wikimedia Commons. Laleena^{Talk to me} _{Contributions to Wikipedia} 14:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, I respect your opinion on putting a gallery at that point. All the pictures I used were cross use of gallery pics on other wiki dog entries. I thought cross use and links to other wiki material is encouraged? (If galleries aren't good here, maybe they aren't good on other wiki pages where I found the pics? Is that something the bots check and report? Is this a general wiki style rule? I don't find the wiki style restriction on galleries, in fact, the help page has several examples on how to create galleries.) But back to the point, I do think at least two or three 100px pictures of the modern descendants of ancient ancestor breeds and immediate breed progenitor dogs that are discussed in the text would be informative to the reader. I think its good use of the power of wiki too. I propose adding some limited pictures in the ancestor section - right or left justified. As to your deletion of the pictures at the genetics section; again some pictures will be helpful to reader's understanding. Again, cross use of wiki material --Beachrunningdude 01:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The code does not take up much space. However, the images themselves slow down loading of the page. One image I found was over 330 KB in itself. Yes, they're shrunk, but we like simplicity on wiki. I would advise reading Wikipedia:Images#Image choice and placement, Wikipedia:Image use policy, WP:10I, and the inactive page Wikipedia:Galleries. Morgan Wick 06:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Pictures are very useful. They are interesting and really aid reader understanding too! Pictures are one of the things I like best about Wikipedia. They make my kids want to surf Wikipedia and that helps them learn about all sorts of things. They really liked reading about the white shepherds because our family dog is a white shepherd. More pictures please. --Bigpictureshow 17:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

- - - - -

The pictures deleted from the Genetics section were part of the additional content I was in the process of adding. The pictures were directly relevant to the new content. Since the pictures were deleted with in minutes after I saved the first of the updates, while I took a phone call, I didn't continue the content updates there due to this gallery discussion.

The summary of why those pictures are relevant to that new genetics content is:.....

One of the most quoted books on dog genetics and coat color is The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs by Clarence C. Little, published by Howell Book House, 1957. Little’s genetic research is based on hypothesized alleles with hypothesized dominance at hypothesized gene loci to fit data obtained by observing and categorizing coat colors and patterns appearing in various dogs breeds and litters.

Little's studies in the 1950s designated the white coat variant in all dogs as the extreme white, or sw, allele of the major white spotting locus (S) and the dilution, or cd and cch, alleles of the major locus (C.) Locus (C) is often referred to as the albino and paling gene. Little hypothesized these genes cause dark colors to pale to tan and tan to pale to white. All the white dogs pictured, in particular, the white German Shepherd, were thought to carry these paling genes. This is why dark coat German shepherd breeders made white coats an extreme fault and outlawed it in the breed standard. They thought mixing these white coat genes with dark coat genes was like mixing white paint with black paint and the who breed would turn a dirty gray color.

Comparative analysis of the dog genome, mapped a couple of years ago, and specific breed DNA sequences shows that Little's hypothesized C locus probably does not exist, and the well identified mammalian albino alleles at the Tyrosinase (TYR) locus do not appear in any of the pictured white coat dogs, so far analyzed. Neither are the S locus alleles as hypothesized. DNA analysis has however found new 'ee' recessive alleles, not hypothesized by Little, at the Extension, or E, locus now called Melanocortin-1 receptor MC1R gene. Other alleles at this locus are proven to create the dark mask-like coloration on the face, as in the gsd and other breeds. It is now known the newly identified ee alleles at this locus very selectively switch off only hair pigmentation in the hair follicle melanocyte cells - hence, expression of the dog's dark coat genes are blocked, or masked, and the resulting coat color is creme to white, depending on an allele at another locus. The MC1R ee alleles specifically modify hair follicle melanocyte cell function only and do not interrupt skin pigmentation - hence white coats and black noses, etc. DNA tests have shown that white coat German Shepherd dogs carry the ee alleles, as do all the other white coat dogs in the picture gallery tested so far. Researchers are curious to see of the white coat wolf also have the ee allele and some researchers are heading in that direction. I also have info on how the White Shepherd specialization breeding fixes the coat color allele specialization in the new breed lines. All with links and references to research papers and journal articles etc .

White Shepherd and White German Shepherd clubs around the world have linked to this wiki title over the last few months. I know breeders and white dog fanciers are intensely interested in this new and still developing DNA research, but I have the impression that some would label it off topic and/or too long for wiki and just delete it, so I'll not go to the trouble of further updates here........... --Beachrunningdude 02:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

• Third opinion. Seems like the best option is to put the gallery at the end of the article and reference it using # tags (see Cow). Putting it in the middle disrupts the overall flow of the article. However, if there is a sufficient information to link the gallery to the article (which, given Beachrunningdude's post above, there is), it would be gladly welcomed to have this gallery in the article, at the end where it can be referenced. Beachrunningdude may also want to consider creating a new article on the genetics of these dogs, if there are more sources that can be cited. Hope this helps. —  Scottjar  → Talk 14:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Appearance Section

Athaenara, To answer your copy/source question from the history log - This section is an amalgamation of standards from several source sites. I added citation tags for those sources. --Beachrunningdude 01:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Lead section

The change to title line is factually not correct

"The Berger Blanc Suisse or White Swiss Shepherd is a breed line of German Shepherd Dogs with white coats." is factually not correct! The original version is factually correct! --Beachrunningdude 01:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Then please provide a reliable, published source saying so. Remember that the threshold for inclusion is verification, not truth. VanTucky ^(talk) 02:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

So where is the verification citation for the "The Berger Blanc Suisse or White Swiss Shepherd is a breed line of German Shepherd Dogs with white coats" revision? I validate my original line with the content that follows that includes hyperlinks to sources. Can you support your edit with a reference? You can't because it is factually not correct! Sauce for the goose is gravy for the gander... --Beachrunningdude 02:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

So lets discuss how we can improve on that first intro line. --Beachrunningdude 02:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The question is whether a lead paragraph which ignores Wikipedia:Manual of Style and Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title guidelines:

White Shepherd, Weisser Schweizer Schäferhund, and Berger Blanc Suisse (White Swiss Shepherd) are Different Worldwide Breed Names for a Common Breed Type that is a Specialization of "White Coat" German Shepherd Breed Dogs.

is preferable to one which complies:

The Berger Blanc Suisse or White Swiss Shepherd is a breed line of German Shepherd Dogs with white coats.

or whether some third form would be best. — Athaenara ✉ 05:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I support Athaenara's version. Beachrunningdude, if you're going to massivly expand and rewrite a Wikipedia article, you need to read the WP:Manual of Style. If you're going to write an introduction, you need to read WP:LEAD and check out other good articles. Wikipedia has established writing conventions, some of which may contradict your real-world experience. VanTucky ^(talk) 05:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your guidance on the lead; I understand your comments on wiki style. I'll make the appropriate revisions asap - it may be a day or three as I'm near deadline elsewhere. Thanks! --Beachrunningdude 13:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I see someone already made a revision to put the original old lead text back - ok... I'll kill the "New Breed" header and move the text up to continue the lead from the end of the old text. I think that should resolve the lead issue? I would like to rework the first paragraph lead just a little if there is no objection. I also see a large block of text under the New Breed header was deleted as part of that revision - who ever did this I'd like to discuss the deletion. I would like to add the content back, but make revisions based on your input. I'll await a reply on that.... --Beachrunningdude 00:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The deletion of a "large block of text under the New Breed header" was found in the article history to have been done in this edit by user Dorrielh (talk · contribs), the only edit from that account so far. — Athaenara ✉ 14:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

There are some useful tips in Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Lead section. — Athaenara ✉ 01:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh my, did I do that! I was experimenting with editor tools trying to understand how they work. I cut text from history and pasted it to sandbox looking at the lead discussion. Somehow my experimenting went live, cutting that block of text; Please revise/restore as you want. I agree that old first paragraph needs work. I'm active in a breed association and appreciate someone took time to write a complete article on WS separation from the dark colour GSD association. No worries mate... --Dorrielh 16:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Athaenara, thanks for restoring the deleted text. I think putting that recovered text in the lead makes the lead section a bit long, as I interpret the wiki guide?? Ok if I work with it a bit more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beachrunningdude (talk • contribs) 02:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I sure think so. Wikipedia is a work in progress. — Athaenara ✉ 02:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Length

Chopped last several sections and earlier section pictures to cut length --Beachrunningdude 20:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It just wasn't enough- most people who are reading this article, to be blunt, aren't going to care about the extensive history of the breed, with a blow-by-blow account of what happened in each year with each group of fanciers... it just isn't practical. I've copy-edited the appearance descriptions to be more digestible, and deleted much of the highly-detailed genetics discussion, as well as most of the history- in particular the bits describing the creation of GSDs, which, though interesting, would do better in its own article. In addition, I've edited the "bibliography" section so that it doesn't repeat the references and removed the non-English and negligible additions that I doubt had much to do with the writing of the article.

All the history stuff I deleted can be found here, by the way. I'm sure there's still much there to be used without having to resort to alienating casual readers. After all, if they're really interested, there's all those lovely references they can read instead! Sarrandúin ^{[ Talk + Contribs ]} 02:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

I've requested a move for the article from Berger Blanc Suisse to White Shepherd Dog. The reason for this is because the opening section is the only place in the article that mentions this name- only "White Shepherd" and variants are seen. I believe this is true for the references as well. Also, White Shepherd Dog already has more than one revision (a double-redirect fix), so I could not do the move automatically! Sarrandúin ^{[ Talk + Contribs ]} 02:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

---

Develop your own content as you like, but please, please stop using the content written by me, which is published elsewhere under copyright. Such limited piecemeal use of the content is really of no value.

To your comments and general attitude to editing. White Shepherd breeders, owners and prospective owners are interested in the entire original content and they do use and refer people to the wiki article. It was used because the original content covers all the questions new owners and those genuinely curious about the breed typically ask. I know this because I have been involved with white and color German Shepherds for many years and I correspond with people around the world on this subject; Do you?

English language books on this breed type are out of print. Most of the information I developed for English wiki is currently found only in French, German and Dutch language books and web entries. (the “foreign language” books you deleted from the bibliography - who reads anything but American English anyway, huh?) White Shepherds are popular in French speaking Quebec, all over Europe, even Russia and South Africa. Your attitude suggests that you think wiki is only for English speaking Americans. French Canadians and Europeans speak English and one or two other languages too. In fact, do you know that the international community makes use of the English wiki content and they also read non-English language books and websites? More than two-thirds of Wikipedia's 5.3 million articles are written in a language other than English, and three-quarters of Wikipedia's readers are multi-lingual. Most of the English books in my bibliography are on my bookshelf, but they are out of print and difficult to find. So, as you suggest, Americans who read only English can’t just go buy the books to satisfy their curiosity. Should Americans be punished because your citizens can read only one language and you insist on information censorship? Comprendre? Begrijp? Verstehen?

The White Swiss Shepherd information level as you have constructed it is too little to inform the novice and too basic to be of value to those active with the WGSD/WSD breed. BTW, Burger Blanc Suisse is the official name spelling of FCI international kennel club (based in France) that recognizes the breed – this must be inconsequential to an English only American.

But, then, I know my opinion and comments are of little interest to you, and you will do as you like regardless. Every month, about 150 million different Internet users world wide visit Wikipedia to obtain information. In the nearly eight years since Wikipedia launched about a million of us have taken that next step to create an account and add content. However, a large percent of those million contributors have already and continue to walk away, taking their content with them.

Why? As it is increasingly reported in business and IT publications: “Wikipedia is better at getting a handful of volunteer editors utterly obsessed with controlling content than at mining the expertise of the millions who might refresh and extend content…. Half of all edits on the English-language Wikipedia can be traced to just less than 1,000 people who, with little to no subject matter expertise, extensively edit expert contributions eliminating important context and introducing inaccuracies... Knowledgeable contributors from all walks of life are abandoning Wikipedia as a handful of self-appointed editors have become over zealous in their perceived right to change or delete content with no consideration to contributors… Academians, who were initially enthusiastic with the potential of Wikipedia when it was founded in 2001, no longer contribute to the project, have removed their content and now even severely penalize students who use Wikipedia... As academia and the media increasingly question the usefulness of information available on Wikipedia, deep pocket-contributors to this non-profit operation are starting to rethink their support….”

You can disregard my expertise and do as you like and you can disregard other knowledgeable contributors, as I see you have on other pages. Wikipedia may ultimately fail as content contributions increasingly evaporate and monetary donations, to this non-profit operation, continue to decline.

Jimmy Wales came up with the Wikiasari open source search engine idea in an attempt to monetize Wiki traffic. Wikiasari is a for-profit venture, but the “majority” of proceeds are to be used to support Wikipedia. Jimmy initially convinced several deep pocket IT entrepreneurs to invest in Wikia, but he has yet to come up with a business model to monetize traffic. His now seven-year-old idea to support non-profit Wikipedia with a for-profit search engine and media business increasingly looks like a non-starter, again. There is a bottom to the investor’s deep pockets and competitors such as Centiare, Citizendium, and three others internationally are now actively enticing former wiki contributor to their own controlled content pages. This is a financial problem for Wales and wiki; Don’t you really know why that “make a donation banner” is at the top of the wiki pages?

While I once invested and advocated support of Wikipedia I will now do otherwise, as I will tell Jimmy Wales when I next I see him seeking support for his Wikia business. If Wikipedia does go dark you must ask yourself, did I do that? And, the lights can go out as many in Silicon Valley discovered in the dot-com bust seven years ago. Alas, I know this will fall on deaf ears and bind eyes.

Again, develop your own content as you like, but please, please stop using the content written by me, which is published elsewhere under copyright. Such limited piecemeal use of the content is really of no value.

You know it has been a while since we’ve run an article on this topic. I think one of my reporters just got an assignment….

--Beachrunningdude (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read Wikipedia's guidelines on article size, conflict of interest, ownership of articles, being civil, and perhaps original research. You are reminded several times while in the editing process that everything submitted to this site is licensed under the GFDL, as well as "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." In addition, please remember that this is the English version of Wikipedia- the naming conventions suggest using it. Sarrandúin ^{[ Talk + Contribs ]} 01:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support move to White Shepherd Dog. This seems to be the normal English name for the breed, adopted by various national associations. Andrewa (talk) 13:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

This page has been moved from "Berger Blanc Suisse" to White Shepherd Dog as the result of a move proposal listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Dekimasuよ! 08:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems someone with no subject knowledge requested a change which leads to incorrect info! Edited references to Berger Blanc Suisse, including pictures, for specific White Shepherd of the United States description per the requested change to separate from European FCI recognized Berger Blanc Suisse breed name. Redirected from Berger Blanc Suisse search is not correct - must disconnect. Berger Blanc Suisse and White Shepherd are not the same breed. NOT Correct to associate the two in this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.183.192.190 (talk • contribs) 23:40, November 29, 2007

So for some reason a page called "Berger Blanc Suisse" can talk about "White Shepherds," but not vice versa? I'm changing much of it back, and have sort have rewritten the leading section. Also, I removed the entry that was copied straight from the AWSA's website. This is a violation on Wikipedia's policies on copyright, so please don't do that.... Sarrandúin ^{[ Talk + Contribs ]} 17:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

This entry, as I found it year ago, mapped Berger Blanc Suisse, White Shepherds and White German Shepherds of multiple country breed/kennel clubs to this one wiki entry. This was and is incorrect as they are not one in the same interchangeable breed. Rather than split the wiki mappings to separate unique entries, I used my source material to provide a discussion on the common genetic origins of all these diverging breed lines and discuss when, how and why each breed line around the world split off of the main genetic branch into separate breed lines, each seeking unique breed recognition in their country. Not easy to explain several distinct and still evolving breed lines in a single wiki article, but possible with enough detail. You placed the too long tag on the entry several times and deleted text on the too long complaint. Your comments and editing suggest that you regard "White Shepherd" from the USA as synonymous with the Canadian White Shepherd, Australian White Shepherd, White German Shepherd and a (foreign language) White Swiss Shepherd spelling of Burger Blanc Sussie. (In fact, all these are more like the differences between a Rough Collie and Border Collie - both Collies, but separately recognized and registered. It is not like the similarity of Rough and Smooth Collies where the two are recognized as a common breed.) Granted the original was long, but by mapping so many breeds to one entry, you get what you get.... Ok, if you want brevity and insist on the 'White Shepherd' title we will maintain accuracy within that context. You should pursue making separate wiki entries for White German Shepherd, American White Shepherd, Burger Blanc Sussie (White Swiss Shepherd) and etc. In editing my material I only require that you get it right - when you edit my material and make it wrong, then I will correct no matter how many times you repeat the now-all-too-common-wiki-mantra of "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly by others, do not submit it." --Beachrunningdude (talk) 22:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Country of Origin

THis dog breed is in the list of dog breeds originating in Germany; however, this artical says that the breed originates in the USA. Perhaps either be removed from the list of breeds originating in Germany or the country of origin should be edited on the article. Wolface (talk) 22:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

In Greece it is actually known as Canadian Wolfdog (with "wolfdog" reffering to the Alsatian and Belgian Shepherdogs). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.191.48 (talk) 10:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

FCI grants provisional recognition to White Swiss Shepherd Dog

Federation Cynologique Internationale based in Belgium has granted provisional recognition to White Swiss Shepherd Dog, standard Nr. 347,

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/347a2002_en.doc

Sentikki (talk) 22:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Krypto the Superdog

Is Clark's dog Krypto the same breed of dog. (JoeLoeb (talk) 01:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC))

Merge?

Merge with Berger Blanc Suisse? --Minichris502 (talk) 18:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Dec 2010, History full of editorializing & puffery

Not sure if this is the same NPOV issue mentioned in 2007 or if that's long since been remedied, but I'm fairly sure that phrases like "brave members of WSCC" and "Unfortunately, that would all change" don't qualify as neutral.

Perhaps there should be an entry on the White Shepherd Club of Canada outlining (in a more neutral way) that information. At the moment, it reads like an advertisement for them.

Love my white shepherd. Not a fan of seeing wikipedia read like an opinion piece in a school newspaper.216.77.95.2 (talk) 14:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)JC

In need of a major rewrite / cleanup / citations

I've added several flags to the article as I do not believe it adheres to Wiki standards. Specifically I added the POV, Peacock and Unreferenced flags. I came to this page after reading through the German Shepherd page as until then I was unaware of a "White" Shepherd and was curious about it. What I found was a total lack of citations (an article this size should have far more than 8 citations; one of which is simply a link to the IMDB page about a movie that happens to have a White Shepherd in it. Furthermore the article is littered with peacocking and very biased phrases such as "Unfortunately, that would all change in 1998, when the color white was officially disqualified from the CKC German Shepherd breed standard."

While I will gladly admit that it was indeed unfortunate to show-dog owners who were now disqualified, this is an *encyclopedia* not a show dog magazine and we are therefore not pro or anti anything. Insomuch as the article is concerned we should not care one way or the other as to if the breed was disqualified; our task is to simply *inform* that it WAS disqualified.

Lastly; I believe that the whole "In Popular Culture" section either needs to be re-written or completely removed. The vast majority of the items included are similarly a list of famous and semi-famous people who do or have owned an example of the breed; and are not inherently known for it. While semi-interesting in a random-fact way; Wiki is not a list or trivia repository. While not a perfect example, if this section is to be included I believe it needs to emulate (and perhaps improve upon) the example in the [| German Shepherd Dog] article.

Why am I not making all of these changes myself even though wiki says "Be Bold"? For starters I don't know enough about the topic at hand to cite most of the article without doing a significant amount of research on the matter; additionally I'm not a very eloquent person nor well versed in wiki syntax and would likely spend more time figuring out how to make a citation link than actually editing the article. This is why I added the flags (a task that took me nearly an hour to figure out what the flags were and how to add them by the way); this way I hope that others who happen upon this article who might be better versed (both in the subject at hand, and wiki syntax) can accomplish what I am presently unable.

ShanDestromp (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:German Shepherd Dog - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 09:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)