Talk:W. Sterling Cary

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 10:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that during W. Sterling Cary's term as president of the National Council of Churches from 1972 to 1975, the council voted to support gay rights for the first time in its history? Source: NCC president from 1972 to 1975 (The New York Times), NCC supporting gay rights for the first time (Chicago Tribune)

• Reviewed: Golden Years (song)
• Comment: This article appeared in the "Recent deaths" section of WP:ITN not as a bold link, so it is still eligible for DYK.

Created by DanCherek (talk). Self-nominated at 15:32, 22 November 2021 (UTC).

• The hook is interesting, verified by supplied sources, and cited in the article which itself complies to WP:COPO, is amply long enough and well referenced for DYK purposes. A qpq has been conducted. Seems good to go Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 20:49, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Modified ALT0 to T:DYK/P4

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:W. Sterling Cary/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jenhawk777 (talk · contribs) 16:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I have begun a review. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

My first set of comments are on on prose and punctuation. I use the second edition of the instructor's version of "The Brief English Handbook" if you wish to check my corrections. The sections on commas are 23 and 24; compound phrases with dependent clauses are at 24e. Adverb clauses are covered in 4b and dangling modifiers in 17h.

Lead and Early Life

The first sentence of the lead, for example, could be improved if it were two sentences. "William Sterling Cary (August 10, 1927 – November 14, 2021) was an American Christian minister. From 1972 to 1975, he was the first Black president of the National Council of Churches (NCC) in its history". If you don't like this version, that's okay, but it is awkward as it is, and it's the first sentence.

And on down in the Early life section: "He was a 1945 graduate of Plainfield High School." Why not just say "He graduated from Plainfield High school in 1945"? "At Morehouse, Cary majored in sociology,[7] and... " remove the comma in front of 'and'. It is a compound phrase containing a dependent clause and needs no comma. Since you have a semicolon, "by 1947, he was an assistant pastor at the church" can simply say, "by 1947, he was assistant pastor there". On the other hand, "The same year he was ordained..." "The same year" is an introductory phrase, and they always have a comma after them, so add one. For the rest of that sentence, "he was ordained as a Baptist minister, and he graduated in..." remove the 'as', the comma and the second he. It's another compound phrase. Time is generally placed at the end of phrases like this: "graduated with a BA in 1949". "... in New York City, while also serving" remove comma. Compound phrase w/ dependent clause. "upcoming year, becoming..." can go either way since you have multiple elements in series, but I think it reads better w/o a comma. I would remove it. "the following year, and graduated with a BDiv in 1952" remove the comma, flip the order - same reasons. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Changed everything in this section as you suggested. Thanks and I appreciate you taking the time to explain the grammar details. I know that I have a perpetual habit of overusing commas :) DanCherek (talk) 22:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

You and nearly everyone else in the English-writing world. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Early Ministry

"Cary moved to Youngstown, Ohio, to become..." remove the comma between Ohio and become. "...from 1952 to 1955, because he was unable..." remove the comma and replace was with had been. "committees, including the ..." remove the comma. "and had four children" add the word 'later' to "had four children" or it sounds like they had them at their wedding. "Grace Congregational Church, where he was ..." remove the comma. " to the United Church of Christ,[21] and began " remove the comma; "succeeding Herbert King who resigned" should be 'had' resigned. "on juvenile delinquency, including " remove the comma. "Governor Nelson Rockefeller,[25] and frequently spoke" remove the comma. I would move the phrase "while not condoning the rioting" up in this sentence to read: "After the Harlem riot of 1964, while not condoning the rioting, he called for the suspension of the shooter, Lieutenant Thomas Gilligan, and the establishment of a civilian board to examine allegations of police brutality."

Changed everything in this section as you suggested with the exception of the comma after Youngstown, Ohio. I kept that per Wikipedia's Manual of Style, MOS:GEOCOMMA, which recommends a comma after the last element for geographical items. DanCherek (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

That one's actually right... People kept interrupting me this afternoon! Let me see what other excuses I can come up with...sorry. I've double checked the rest of my work now! Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:59, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Towards Black liberation theology

Shouldn't "Racial Justice Now," be in italics or quotes or something? And remove that comma. It creates a sentence fragment. Since you use the abbreviation UCC here, put that abbreviation in parentheses in the previous section where you have the full name linked. "in March 1966; at that time, he" good use of a semi-colon and a comma. See, I can say nice things too. The next two sentences should be one sentence because you have a comparative without the second comparison included: "and on a broader scale. That year, Cary helped" should read "...on a broader scale by helping to establish..." "National Committee of Negro Churchmen" should be set off in italics or with quotes, and you should write that article next. We don't have one. "and Black liberation theology, stating that" remove comma. "Vietnam War, and criticized" remove comma; change to "Vietnam War while also criticizing..."Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Changed everything in this section as you suggested. DanCherek (talk) 23:12, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

National Council of Churches

If you are going to have a comma after NCC in this sentence, "Cynthia Clark Wedel and was the first Black president of the NCC, as well as its youngest president..." replace the 'and' with a comma and add an 'and' after the comma you have so it reads "..., and its youngest...". "governing body, to be rolled out" remove comma. "proposed budget, which decreased " remove comma. "paper on abortion, towards Cary's goal" rewrite: "...paper on abortion in a move toward advancing Cary's goal..." no commas. "private schools, after backlash... " remove comma. It's an adverbial phrase and there can't be a comma between it and the verb it modifies. "the United Farm Workers' grape strike, led by" remove comma. "conditional amnesty, while " remove comma. "Chicago, Illinois, after " remove comma between 'after' and Illinois. "...United Church of Christ in September 1974," add a comma in front of 'in'. " Ford, the first time" remove the comma, it needs a semi-colon and subject/verb: " Ford; it was the first time in a decade that church leaders..." "gay rights, passing " remove comma. Move this sentence "In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, he was appointed by President Ford to a 17-member advisory committee to oversee the resettlement of Southeast Asian refugees" to the beginning of this paragraph for better chronology. No comma after 1975: "October 11, 1975, when " and no comma splitting "Thompson, the chief".Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

In this section, I changed most of these as you suggested with a few exceptions: I kept the commas after "Chicago, Illinois," and "October 11, 1975," per Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MOS:GEOCOMMA and MOS:DATECOMMA) which recommends commas in these instances. I also had a question about your suggestion to put a comma in front of 'in', for "...United Church of Christ in September 1974," ... the resulting sentence reads a little awkwardly to me. Could you clarify this? Many thanks. I also modified the last sentence about Thompson to avoid it seeming like the board elected him to the position of chief executive of the United Presbyterian Church. He was already chief executive of that and the board elected him NCC president. DanCherek (talk) 23:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

No, you are right about the commas around places and dates. I have multiple editions of the handbook I was using, and without realizing it, I had picked up an old one. Rules about punctuation change, and this has in the last fifty years - my oldest handbook. (As if commas weren't hard enough...)

So the sentence in question currently reads Cary moved to Chicago, Illinois, after he was elected executive minister of the Illinois Conference of the United Church of Christ in September 1974, becoming the first Black executive minister in the conference's history The part of the sentence after the comma is a dangling modifier as it sits. You have choices as to how to deal with this: if you put a comma in front of in, it becomes an interruptive phrase (which means the sentence can be read without it) that requires commas at both ends; or you could divide this into two independent clauses by adding a subject to the second half and using a semi-colon; or make it two separate sentences. Perhaps something like this: "Cary moved to Chicago, Illinois, after he was elected executive minister of the Illinois Conference of the United Church of Christ in September 1974. This made him the first Black executive minister in the conference's history." I sort of like the emphasis that a separate sentence creates. It's worth a sentence of its own. Or you could flip it and write "Cary became the first Black executive minister of the Illinois Conference of the United Church of Christ after moving to Chicago in September 1974". However you want - but the comma as it is must depart the premises. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:19, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Wait - did he move in September or was he elected in September? This makes it sound like he moved after he was elected, is that correct? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I think that's the source of the confusion. He was elected in September and moved some time after that – but I didn't track down any date for the actual move. I don't see any issues with your suggestion of splitting it into two sentences, though, so I've gone ahead and implemented that. DanCherek (talk) 15:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Post-presidential and Death

nothing needed here. :-)

That's it for me for today. I will come back and check references later tonight if I can. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks and I appreciate your time! (And I have started closely watching my usage of commas.) I responded to each section above. DanCherek (talk) 23:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Source review

This "He was one of eight children of Andrew Jackson Cary, a real estate broker, and Sadie Walker, a homemaker" is a copy of the article it references: rephrase or quote.

The clipping from the St.Louis Dispatch quotes him as saying he had to work in a factory after graduating from seminary because he couldn't find a job. That should be in this article imho. It says a lot about his character and conditions of the times.

I only did a spot check, but I haven't found any reference problems. You seem good. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I've rephrased the first one and added the second to the beginning of the "Early ministry (1952–1964)" section. DanCherek (talk) 15:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Pass

I believe this article meets all six of the GA criteria: it is well written, the prose is clear, and it complies with the MOS.

Sources have been verified, there is no OR, it's been run through the copy-vio detector and it's all good.

It addresses the main topic well, is neutral, stable and well illustrated.

This article deserves to be a good article on WP. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)