Talk:Unsimulated sex/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Pending changes

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Requested additions: The Band and Histoire de Sexes

There have been two notable mainstream films (both directed by women, as it happens) containing unsimulated sex that should be added to the list. "The Band" (2009, dir. Anna Brownfield) an Australian film released by Breaking Glass Pictures and available on DVD, contains at least two unsimulated coitus scenes, several male masturbation scenes, and a lesbian scene. The making-of featurette on the DVD goes into unusual detail in having the director and stars describe the process of shooting the film. Second film is the French release "Histoires de sexe(s)" (2009, dir. Ovide, US DVD title "Sex Stories"), also released by Breaking Glass Pictures. This one is an example of "mainstream pornography" in that it stars noted European porn stars in a number of sexual sequences, yet the film was apparently not made for porn audiences. That might be enough to make it a debatable addition. But definitely "The Band" fits the criteria for this list. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to add "The Manson Family" as a film with unsimulated sex. here is a source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118840/trivia?tr0692530 24.118.57.193 (talk) 01:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Reverted addition of Bedways

I have removed Bedways from the list. The general notability guidelines requires that additions to a list are notable in their own right and there is no existing article to establish a presumption of notability. Of the sources provided, one is borderline when it comes to WP:RS, the other clearly fails the RS standard. That is not enough to establish notability so the addition to the list fails WP:GNG, and does not appear to meet any WP:NF criteria. Additional problems include the only source that states the sex scenes are non-simulated does not specifically list one of the acts included in the list entry, and so has a verifiability issue; also note that there are no clearly defined criteria for inclusion of a film as main stream and none of the sources asserted this film was, but that seems to be more a problem with the article itself. Monty₈₄₅ 07:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of films either falsely claimed, or debated

I think this article is incomplete without a discussion of films that, in mainstream media and numerous sources, have been the subject of debate, claims, and speculation as to whether the sex featured therein was unsimulated. Two films come to mind. Don't Look Now (dir. Nicholas Roeg) is discussed in a book by Peter Bart, a former editor for Variety, entitled Infamous Players, in which Bart claims, in print, that the scenes between Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie were unsimulated. (This in fact might in itself be enough to justify adding the film to the main list). Wild Orchid (dir. Zalman King) has long been the subject of discussion in mainstream media over whether its sex scenes were real, with the discussion reaching a head during the period when the merits of the then-proposed NC-17 rating were under debate. In addition, I have seen articles suggesting the sex in one of the Scandinavian Levottomat films was unsimulated. That last one is dubious, but there's certainly enough reputable sources (a print book in the first case, numerous articles easily found on Google for the latter) to justify at least a snapshot giving examples of notable films that have had the claim made - and there's enough reputable sources to I think satisfy WP:BLP issues. 70.64.177.79 (talk) 15:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Lust Caution

Could someone add a source (or a "fact" tag) to the listing for Lust, Caution? it's conspicuous by its absence. 68.146.71.145 (talk) 21:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Now and Later

Please add this Philippe Diaz's movie (2009, released in 2011) -- Spiessens 12:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiessens (talk • contribs)

Novecento (also known as "1900")

Bernardo Bertolucci epic from 1976 includes a young boy (Roberto Maccanti, age approx 12) explicitly masturbating to a full erection. Also, a woman (not sure who) takes the penises of Robert DeNiro and Gerard Depardieu into her hands and explicitly fondles them.

Source: http://cndb.com/novecento-1976---t27084.html 70.60.179.74 (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• I believe the qualifications for inclusion on this list are unsimulated intercourse or oral sex, neither of which is described here. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Q

The new French film Q needs to be added. Media coverage is confirming unsimulated sex throughout this mainstream release. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The Orgasm Diaries

I saw this on DVD at the Columbus Branch of the New York Public Library. Box blurbs compare 9 Songs negatively to it and imply that it, too, has unsimulated sex. IMDb says this film was titled BrilliantLove in its native UK.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 05:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Removed films

Some comments about the removed films "Nuda per satana" and "Les fruits de la passion". Nuda per satana appears to be a "hardcore insert" for pornographic cinemas, and thus not a mainstream release [3] while the generally softcore "Les fruits de la passion" possibly may qualify. (Link to MrSkin blog on blacklist) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:44, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Hardcore re-edit

There appears to be some softcore movies that were re-edited (without the original director's consent with new actors and actresses) with hardcore scenes to be shown at pornographic cinemas. Maybe something should be added about them. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:53, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Enter the Void

This film should be added to the list. It possibly containts actual unsimulated sex, and most definitely at least vaginal penetration by objects. 37.59.83.1 (talk) 01:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Emmanuelle In Space Collection]

what about the sex in this collection, staring Krista Allen, I've heard both that it was real and that it was faked nyone have the 411 on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.118.103 (talk) 19:23, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• There was no unsimulated sex in the Allen Emmanuelle films, which were in fact episodes of a made-for-cable TV series edited together. There is a "hardcore edit" of one of the Monique Gabrielle Emmanuelle films (involving the addition of footage involving actresses other than Gabrielle), but that's as close to hardcore as any "officially sanctioned" Emmanuelle production (i.e. anything in which Emmanuelle is spelled with one M) ever got. 70.72.223.215 (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The Bunny Game

The opening scene from The Bunny Game appears real (could be fake, but the effort to fake it - i.e., prosthetics - seems unrealistic). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.108.77.242 (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

To add

Sexual Chronicle of a French Family (2012) by Jean-Marc Barr and Pascal Arnold. The uncut version has a large number of unsimulated sex scenes (see allocine). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.47.86 (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Time for an update

I think it's time for the article to undergo an update. The last film entered was back in 2009, but there have been several more released since then (see above discussions). 70.72.211.35 (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Additional films

This is a list someone made on IMDB. It can be culled for new additions to the film list in this article: [4]. Softlavender (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 January 2013

The Image (1975)

Jean discovers that Anne cannot get enough of being humiliated by her mistress, Claire. Gentleman that he is, he decides to partake in the activities. Ultimately, Claire surrenders to him as well. Written by Manfred Gluck

There are a number of highly erotic scenes of actual fellatio, cunnilingus and 'manual labour', as well as some urinating in full view. There also is a scene in wich the trio has some light SM . Really something to see. Boterletter (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2013 (UTCs

 Done I don't see any actual request made above but I suppose you are indirectly suggesting that The Image be added to the table in the article. If so, please provide a reliable source that verifies the addition, i.e., one that cites for the proposition that the actors were actually engaging in sexual acts for the filming, so that it can be cited when the edit is made.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Sexual Chronicle of a French Family

The SF Bay Times has an October, 2012 article in which Jean-Marc Barr, co-director of Sexual Chronicles of a French Family, says 'that the DVD is the “sensual” version of the film. A “sexual” version—four minutes longer, and showcasing erections and penetration—also exists. (These scenes/this version is unavailable in the United States).' 86.41.22.67 (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The uncut version can be seen here. Obviously this can't be used in the article, but just in case editors wanted to check the bona fides of the SFBT report. 86.41.22.67 (talk) 08:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Addition to list

This has been mentioned earlier in the talk page, but to repeat, the French release Q has confirmed unsimulated sex. It was released in North America on DVD this week under the title Desire. 70.72.223.215 (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

• However the North American DVD release is censored with all unsimulated scenes removed. So if anyone needs to verify they have to access the Euro DVD. Another addition is the 2011 Erika Lust feature Cabaret Desire. Although most of her work appears to be porn, which would disqualify a film under the criteria of this article, it appears Cabaret Desire is considered a mainstream (albeit alternative) release along the lines of Shortbus. 70.72.215.252 (talk) 12:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Bedways (2012 Germany) is also a mainstream movie with unsimulated sex PeterGerbach (talk) 13:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Ken Park

The listing for Ken Park indicates the sex is simulated. Assuming the cited source confirms this (I haven't looked), then it probably no longer qualifies for this article and should be removed from the listing, unless the solo scene mentioned counts. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 21:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• I just watched it on DVD again to check it. There is definitely real oral sex in the last scene PeterGerbach (talk) 13:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

And real cunnilingus earlier. It should stay on the list. Issar El-Aksab (talk) 05:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Please Remove Blue is the Warmest Colour

That Variety review is the only source on the Internet suggesting the sex scenes in the film are unsimulated (and just because there is "lots of lesbian sex" means nothing). I have been looking and have found no source from anyone connected with the film or the studio to confirm that the film is unsimulated. Unless such a source is found, citing a review isn't going to cut it here. It can always be reinstated later if additional sources are found. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

This film belongs, per reliable sources:

• [5] “Sure to raise eyebrows with its show-stopping scenes of non-simulated female copulation..."
• [6] There have been suggestions that the sex scenes are real, something fuelled by Seydoux who revealed last night that “what you see on screen is what we really did”

Federales (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

One of the actors at a roundtable has been quoted in another reliable source as confirming that it is simulated: Crave Online Cannes Roundtable with Lea Seyboux. Per WP:BLP it must now be removed. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Q, TV series, Real Cancun

The Q entry should be amended to note that the North American version, titled Desire, is censored to remove the unsimulated footage. One addition should be the "reality" movie The Real Cancun, which features two "spy camera"-style scenes showing couples engaged in sex; it was widely distributed in mainstream theatres. And I think maybe we should also add a section for TV series. Although I have yet to see a scripted TV series with unsimulated sex (though some Cinemax After Dark productions come as close as it's possible to get, and the jury is out for some on Tell Me You Love Me), a number of reality series have featured unsimulated sexual activity (sometimes with hardcore explicitness). Big Brother is a major example (at least non-US versions), and there's also the European version of Paradise Hotel. HBO aired Cathouse and Showtime aired Family Business. It might be borderline, but Playboy's reality programming often includes unsimulated footage such as Foursome and 7 Lives Xposed. Playboy might be considered too close to porn to qualify for the "mainstream" aspect of this list, but HBO and Showtime, not to mention all the mainstream nets that air BB and its variations, certainly do. 70.76.69.162 (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 October 2013

2055l (talk) 09:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

1. Intimacy (2001) has only short fellatio, NO coitus and this wikipedia page showed correct information for a long time (until someone put a false information) and looked like this:

Fellatio scene between actress Kerry Fox and Mark Rylance. It is often falsely stated that actual coitus is performed between the two leads, but this rumor was dispelled by Fox's then-boyfriend, Alexander Linklater, who wrote an article for The Guardian about the making of the film.

2. Antares (2004) has no real fellation scene, while the view is obstructed by actresses hair during most of the scene,there is a moment where you can see that actors penis is NOT inside her mouth if you watch carefully. This scene was uncorrectly mentioned in this wikipedia article couple years ago until someone correctly edited it out. Now someone has falsely put it back. You cannot see the penis inside her mouth during that scene, but there is a moment where you can see that it is outside, so this movie does not belong to this article.

The link [33] also point to the another movie ""Adriana Davidova in "Síndrome" - Thirsty Rabbit"."

3. Síndrome (2004) is also wrongly listed here: the link [32] does not confirm unsimulated sex at all.

Not done: By your own description, these changes may lack consensus. Please discuss these changes with the other editors who frequent this article and reach a consensus before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 03:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

This wikipedia page should contain factual information about scenes where sex is unsimulated. List of scenes where watcher can CLEARLY see that the sex is unsimulated and it is preferably confirmed by makers ( that no prostectic is used and so on)

In Antares (or Sindrome which was also falsely listed) NO unsimulated action can be seen. There is NO actors penis inside actresses mouth in screen. This is not unsimulated sex scene, it is just explicit SIMULATED one.

This scene is probably listed here only because a thought, a pretense of this being unsimulated suits better couple of pervs jerkoff fantasies than the actual fact that it is not. And they are allowed to falsely list this because of this consensus/non-consensus thing. Several years ago this scene was falsely listed in this article and then someone correctly edited it out and it was like that for long time until it was again incorrectly listed. Like i said, there is no unsimulated sex can be seen in this scene and this link proves it:

http://www.xnxx.com/video2360260/antares_-_sex_scenes_mainstream_

I agree with you. Otherwise, this article could hardly have much sense.

Edit request: Sexual Chronicles of a French Family

Add to the list between "Q" and "Nymphomaniac":

|-
| Sexual Chronicles of a French Family
| 2012
| Jean-Marc Barr, co-director of the film, said 'that the DVD is the “sensual” version of the film. A “sexual” version—four minutes longer, and showcasing erections and penetration—also exists.'<ref>Gary M. Kramer, ''[http://issuu.com/sanfranciscobaytimes/docs/2012-10-18 Sexual Chronicle of a French Family]'', San Francisco Bay Times, October 18, 2012, p. 23</ref><ref>[http://www.amazon.de/Frankreich-Privat-sexuellen-Geheimnisse-Familie/dp/B008SKCVJ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386106130&sr=8-1&keywords=Chroniques+sexuelles+d%27une+famille+d%27aujourd%27hui Uncut version at Amazon.de]</ref>
|French

86.41.34.32 (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 05:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you.Lostinlodos (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2013

Remove Inside Deep Throat - It is not a feature film but rather a documentary about a pornographic movie. It´s either that or start listing every other porn documentary featuring a sex clip or two, there´s a lot of em. 83.108.240.126 (talk) 10:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Fair point. I've removed it from the main list, and in the interests of WP:PRESERVE, added this above the list:

This list does not include documentaries about pornography, which may contain unsimulated sexual activity. For example, Inside Deep Throat contains approximately 30 seconds of unsimulated fellatio.

Thanks, Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 03:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

References

Nymphomaniac

Major media including The Guardian and Huffington Post are reporting that an upcoming Lars Von Trier film, Nymphomaniac is to be released in hardcore and softcore versions. Not sure if this belongs on the list itself as that's for released films, and this one doesn't shoot till 2012, but as the topic of unsimulated sex in mainstream film is being discussed in non-trivial media, this might be worth adding somewhere. In addition, the Huffington Post source can also be used as additional source for verifying unsimulated sex in Antichrist. 68.146.71.145 (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• I'd say Not, for the time being. WP:CRYSTAL, as applied to films, doesn't allow for an article to be created about a film until it's started principal photography. I'd figure that it likewise oughn't be cited here before then.  ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  18:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The film is now released so info needs updating to reflect how the film has been made. Jonpatterns (talk) 12:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

La vie d'Adele

La vie d'Adele displays explicit and unsimulated lesbian sex acts[[7]]. Should it be included in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.196.229.158 (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Wot about .....

I understand that there is a movie or possibly a video clip starring Madonna_(entertainer) where she is actually having sex with her male co-star. Old_Wombat (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Doubtful of its existence, and even so, I don't think it'd qualify on this list. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

This is probably 1993 film Body of evidence, uncensored Europian version. (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.136.55 (talk)

WR. Mysteries of the Organism

This film should be excluded from the list. "Manual stimulation of the penis" is not a reason for being it here. In addition, this is displayed in a nonsexual content. At the very begining of the film there are some real sex scenes but they are inserted here from another film ( an old Soviet sexually - educational film ). In fictional part there are many sex scenes but they are all simulated. (Film contains both documentary and fictional parts). BTW, the film can be found on the internet. 10:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs)

Skin like Sun

This film should be removed from the list as IMDB is not reliable sourse.Baba i deda (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 14:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Removed Lies

Blog is an unreliable source and also the page does not exist.Baba i deda (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 08:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.)

I have re-established the entry for this film. Although I'm not sure that IMDB is a poor source of information I would think it better that I am asked for further or more information/sources than someone arbitrarily removing my entry to this article.

The site that represents the company that made the film has this review “Erotic realism with more than a touch of high art”

– ForTheGirls.com

As a recent 'arty' sex film from a non-English-speaking nation there is not a huge amount of press about it.

It does have reviews here

Montalban (talk) 10:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

References

What Defines "Porn"?

Many of the films listed here straddle (no pun intended) the line between "high art" and "pornography". What, exactly, is the criteria here? I added Cheeky! a while back, but it seems to have been removed. If 9 Songs and Caligula can be listed here, then why can't this film be listed (or, for that matter, the rest of Tinto Brass' films)? Is this list not supposed to include "skin flicks"? When most people think of "porn", they think of films that revolve entirely around actors having unsimulated sex with each other, not silly Italian sex comedies with a few scenes of sexual contact.--76.106.233.222 (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree this demonstrates a scope problem in this article. 9 Songs simply alternates music with lengthy explicit sex scenes comparable to those in porn movies. I reverted a recent addition of the big budget porn movie Pirates (which I haven't seen) in its softcore-edited release, something I felt isn't nothing novel or worth listing comprehensively. A content-based distinction between porn and not-porn is not possible, and distinctions based on production, distribution channels, or artistic intent are either arbitrary or subjective.

My suggestion would be instead of attempting to list films comprehensively, this article should be more about the subject of unsimulated sex in film. While this article is currently dominated by a list, there is enough prose content (albeit biased toward specifics about each film) to at least start a meaningful prose article. In well-written non-list article, a paragraph on Tinto Brass's ouvre would probably have a place, as would a short section on the history of filmed porn (with a {{Details}} link to Pornographic movies#History).

If someone else wishes to spin off a proper List of not really pornographic movies with unsimulated sex article, they can figure out how to draw the line there. / edg ☺ ☭ 19:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've seen all Zodiac-films myself, and I consider them to be porn, basically. There's a silly plot to them, but it's mainly an excuse to show the sex acts. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, I don't think any of the mainstream actors in the series actually performed any sex acts themselves, but they were performed by close-up stand-ins. The star of the series, comedian Ole Søltoft, did never even perform nude, IIRC. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As a belated response to the original post, Tinto Brass's films qualify as mainstream and should be included -- if they contain unsimulated sexual acts. Although Brass is very good at making it seem real (I've been fooled a few times), the majority of the films (if not all of them) contain only simulated sex (male organs represented by prosthetics, for example). Even Caligula, it has been reported elsewhere, had its hardcore sequences added by another party and not Brass. So if a Tinto Brass film legitimately qualifies (as does Caligula) and the source to confirm can be found, then include it. As to the other question "what is porn and what isn't" the use of the term "mainstream" means films made by studios other than those involved specifically in the production of hardcore sex films and videos. A Google search easily provides the distinction in most cases. Makers of so-called "Skinemax" films and TV series and the dozens of made-for-video erotic films of the 1990s were not porn producers, and in 99% of the cases the sex scenes depicted are simulated and would not qualify anyway. There are exceptions - several Vivid films, for example, have played movie festivals, and Cafe Flesh and several other porn films of the 1970s and 80s were circulated as mainstream films with the hardcore bits cut out (some of these films even recruited Hollywood actors like Cameron Mitchell to appear in non-sex roles). These, however, are rare enough to be considered on a case-by-case basis. If anyone is having difficult telling the difference, the easy thing to do is take a legitimately unsimulated mainstream film like Shortbus or All About Anna, and watch it alongside a film with confirmed simulation like Lie with Me, or for that matter a standard porn video. The difference should be obvious. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 21:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me what the art has to do with porn? Where is " the art" in porn and what is "high art"?. Why, for example, John Holmes' films are not considered as "art films"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.128.205 (talk) 11:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Ex Drummer

Maybe you should cite some reliable source for this film? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 13:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2014

Please add the movie "Kynodontas" (english title 'Dogtooth', year 2009) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1379182/) as it contains masturbation and closeups of female body parts. Bbsnowman (talk) 22:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

 Not done IMDB is not a reliable source - and such a source needs to explain why it is particularly notable, or it will not be included in the list. Arjayay (talk) 11:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song

Melvin Van Peebles' Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song saw Van Peebles performing in a whole host of unsimulated sex scenes over the course of the film. Van Peebles supposedly even contracted a sexual transmitted disease during the making of the film – and then filed for worker's compensation (he was successful). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.19.253.11 (talk) 17:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Caligula

Caligula was the first ever motion picture to feature both established actors and pornographic scenes. The uncut version of the film does include unsimulated sex scenes including penetration, fellatio and ejaculation – most of which were shot by Bob Guccione. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.19.253.11 (talk) 17:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Not sure what you're requesting to be added here as Caligula was one of the very first films added to this list. The statement about it being the first-ever with major actors to feature this sort of activity needs a source. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Q/Desire and

It should be noted that the North American version of Q, titled Desire, has the hardcore footage edited out in favor of alternate angles. As of 2014 an uncensored DVD has yet to be issued in North America. The listing for Marfa Girl doesn't indicate any unsimulated elements; just because it's a Larry Clark film doesn't mean this content exists in it. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2015

please add:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_by_the_Lake

source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_by_the_Lake#Production

Delphonics (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

 Done: [8]. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 18:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Silip

I saw Silip (even in slow-mo) and found no evidence or even a hint of Unsimulated sex. It is very graphic and explicit, but all scenes may be simulated or unsimulated. The provided and quoted source about a rape scene shoot in "'method' manner" and that the men were encouraged to fondle "more than necessary" does not even indicate unsimutaled sex.

Remove silip from the list or provide better evidence.

85.179.128.121 (talk) 14:32, 24 January 2015 (UTC) Joe

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mlpearc (open channel) 15:20, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Done as we shouldn't be claiming a film contains unsimulated sex without evidence. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 03:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Wetlands

The given citation for Wetlands does not indicate anywhere that there is unsimulated sex in the film. I marked it as having failed verification, but it should probably be removed if there isn't any better citation given. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, the source provided for this film fails verification, as it never uses the word "unsimulated" in the entire article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 17:17, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The last time I linked to Wiktionary in order to define terms, the arguments dragged on even longer because there was debate as to whether Wiktionary was reliable. So, I'll skip that and go directly to a better source, namely Merriam-Webster:

Explicit

"open in the depiction of nudity or sexuality"

Graphic

"vividly or plainly shown or described"

I agree that these terms could be used to describe unsimulated sex, but the reality is that they are not synonymous with the term. A sex scene can be explicit or graphic without being unsimulated. It's like the difference between "She had sex with an elderly man" and "She had sex with an older man". In the first sentence, there's no statement as to the female's age, and it's entirely possible that two elderly people have had sex. In the second sentence, an explicit acknowledgement is made of the difference in the ages. In this case, "explicit" or "graphic" sex could mean that the simulated sex scene was shown in greater detail than is normal for a mainstream film. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:40, 31 January 2015 (UTc)

According to what was said about terminology, the sources for the film Clip(2012) are also problematic. The sources use only the term "explicit" to describe sexual content, but the word "unsimulated" was never mentioned. In fact, there are no claims at all to indicate to any unsimulated sex act. And since the main theme of the film is sexploitation of one minor girl, according to WP:BLPREMOVE the sources must be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs)

Sourcing standards for this article – WP:BLP

Sorry to make such a heavy-handed drive-by edit, but I've just commented out five listed films that were tagged with {{failed verification}} – A Single Girl, Enter the Void, Daniel & Ana, I Want Your Love, and Wetlands. My reasoning is that claims that movie sex scenes are unsimulated are claims about living persons, which are subject to WP:Biographies of living persons. So, per WP:BLPREMOVE, contested claims need to be removed rather than tagged. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 09:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I can not really follow you. Why is a claim that a movie has unsimulated sex autumatically a claim about living people? For instance claiming Enter the Void contains scenes of unsimulated sex (which you can simply verify by watching the movie carefully) does not say who of the many actors in the movie had sex nor do we know if they are still alive. The claim is too vague to be subjected to WP:Biographies of living persons without naming them.

Titule (talk) 23:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

But it's not only the actors – a director or producer might not appreciate a false claim they were involved in a movie containing unsimulated sex.

Please be careful with the idea that you can verify that sex is unsimulated just by watching a movie. I'm not convinced non-experts could really tell what is unsimulated and what is cleverly done using prosthetics, digital manipulation, and so on. "Graphic" does not necessarily equal "unsimulated".

If we don't know whether an individual is alive or dead, BLP still applies per WP:BDP.

Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 09:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay about the other involved people and dead or alive point..

I see that (hypothetically) an unsimulated sex act can be simulated by film tricks, but then: who can we trust? Any producer and actor can claim that unsimulated sex occurred in the movie just to get publicity (for that reason I would delete [Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song] as I don't see any hint of unsimulated sex in the movie).

Also, putting a prosthesis into a vagina is still unsimulated sex to me. And at some point, the special effect to make simulated look like unsimulated is too expensive just to achieve, well: what? A bit like biting into a plastic apple instead of eating it for real. If you want to show some big expensive stars having sex that seems unsimulated, you need expensive computer effects (e.g. Nymphomaniac..BTW: why does that movie count? It's faked, isn't it?), but having unknown background actors doing it is simply not worth the money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Titule (talk • contribs)

El Topo

Alejandro Jodorowsky has made claims that he actually raped the actress playing Mara in this film. One source: [9]. It's hard to tell if this should be taken literally or not, however. Not sure if it's worthy of inclusion on this list. (You can't really see anything, so the director/star's claims are the only evidence supporting it. Not sure if the actress has made any statements on the subject.) Lurlock (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Jodorowsky explicitly confirmed this. [[10]] 20:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs)

I have some concerns about the wording of this in the article. When he claims he "raped" her does that mean she did not know he was going to do it, and worse still, she did not consent??? Because that seems a very unlikely thing to admit to doing, as rape is a crime. I'm inclined to alter the phrase to "he claims the rape scene had unsimiulated intercourse" or words to that effect. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

From Jodorowsky's own book:

"When I wanted to do the rape scene, I explained to [Mara Lorenzio] that I was going to hit her and rape her. There was no emotional relationship between us, because I had put a clause in all the women's contracts stating that they would not make love with the director. We had never talked to each other. I knew nothing about her. We went to the desert with two other people: the photographer and a technician. No one else. I said, 'I'm not going to rehearse. There will be only one take because it will be impossible to repeat. Roll the cameras only when I signal you to.' Then I told her, 'Pain does not hurt. Hit me.' And she hit me. I said, 'Harder.' And she started to hit me very hard, hard enough to break a rib...I ached for a week. After she had hit me long enough and hard enough to tire her, I said, 'Now it's my turn. Roll the cameras.' And I really...I really...I really raped her. And she screamed."

Removing films with supposed unsimulated sex from list for lack of verified sources

Das Stundenhotel von St. Pauli

The citation to support this film's inclusion (a contemporary review in Der Spiegel) makes no reference to the "authentic" sex scenes and I have found nothing else about this otherwise unnotable genre film. I am removing it till someone finds a RS saying there are unsimulated sex scenes in this film. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Fantasm

The citation to support this film's inclusion actually compares it to hardcore films, specifically saying it's a softcore film, as does the film's own Wikipedia page. Removed. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 00:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song

While the claim (possibly true) that Van Peebles got worker's compensation for contracting a STD "on the job" is provocative and amusing, it does not prove that any unsimulated sex appears in the film. He may have had the STD anyway and took advantage of it and got lucky with the pay-out. The X rating went to lots of films in the 1970s and the fact it ended up with an R rating after all says a lot. Nothing about it on the film's page, which I think people would have noticed. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 00:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

A Single Girl

The reference is to a rather short clip on XHamster (not an RS). ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Marfa Girl

The source doesn't mention anything about unsimulated sex at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.137.17 (talk) 11:32, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Une vraie jeune fille

IMDb is not reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 15:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Le journal de Lady M

Review in Variety says the scenes are 'hot' and vaguely implies that the sex could be real, whereas a short Time Out review simply calls it softcore. [1] BTW thanks for the help with this Baba, it looks to me like the weeding we're doing has been needed for some time. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 19:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Water in Milk Exists

There are no reliable sources given for the claims made about unsimulated sex acts.

Actually there are plenty. Google is our friend. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

That being said, it's debatable whether this is a 'mainstream film' in that it's really a work of video art. If nothing else comes of this, at least I added it and the main link to the list of the artist's recent exhibitions on his home page. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:19, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2015

Copy-paste of large chunk of article?

Title Year Notes Language Un Chant d'Amour (English title: A Song of Love) 1950 A short film directed by Jean Genet that features brief scenes of male masturbation, homosexual groping and a plot entirely focused on voyeurism.[11] French Gift 1966 One of the first Danish mainstream films with explicit and unsimulated sex scenes.[12] Danish Dom kallar oss mods (English title: They Call Us Misfits)[13] 1967 Swedish documentary film, the first of a trilogy. Swedish El Topo 1970 This cult film by Alejandro Jodorowsky contains unsimulated sex in the rape scene, according to his own book about the film.[14] Spanish Stille dage i Clichy (English title: Quiet Days in Clichy) 1970 Film, directed by Jens Jørgen Thorsen, is based on the long-banned novel by Henry Miller and contains a graphic inserts of hardcore sex early on. [15] Danish, English Cry Uncle! 1971 This film by John G. Avildsen shows unsimulated fellatio.[16] English W.R.: Mysteries of the Organism 1971 Film explores the relationship between communist politics and sexuality, as well as exploring the life and work of Wilhelm Reich. Contains scenes of both simulated sex acts and non-simulated manual stimulation of a penis.[17] Serbo-Croatian and English The Love Garden 1971 This film by Mark Haggard features unsimulated manual stimulation of an erected penis. There are many other close-to-hardcore sex scenes, but the authenticity of those scenes is debatable.[18] English Pink Flamingos 1972 This film by John Waters was banned in Australia in 1997. The Board unanimously noted a scene which included "close up real depictions of actual fellatio....which unambiguously contravene R classification guidelines.".[19] English I Jomfruens tegn 1973 First film in the Danish Zodiac-series of mainstream-comedies with hardcore scenes.[12] Danish Thriller - en grym film (English title: Thriller – A Cruel Picture) 1973 The original Swedish cut of this film, directed by Bo Arne Vibenius, contains explicit hardcore inserts.[20][21] Swedish A Scream in the Streets 1973 Film by Carl Monson and several other directors contains a few seconds of actual penetration.[22] English I Tyrens tegn 1974 Second film in the Danish Zodiac-series of mainstream-comedies with hardcore scenes.[12] Danish Sweet Movie 1974 This film by Dušan Makavejev contain some unsimulated sex acts.[23] English, French, Polish, Spanish, Italian I Tvillingernes tegn 1975 Third film in the Danish Zodiac-series of mainstream-comedies with hardcore scenes.[12] Danish Der må være en sengekant 1975 Sixth film in the Danish Bedside-series of erotic mainstream-comedies, and one of the two to have hardcore scenes.[12] Danish The Image 1975 This film by Radley Metzger, based upon the novel L'Image by Catherine Robbe-Grillet, features many unsimulated sex scenes including S&M, fellatio and lesbian cunnilingus.[24] English, French Sømænd på sengekanten 1976 Eighth and final film in the Danish Bedside-series of erotic mainstream-comedies, and one of the two to have hardcore scenes, including extensive clips from the short Color Climax #1283: Mail Order Sex (1973), watched on 8mm by the ship's crew.[12] Danish I Løvens tegn 1976 Fourth film in the Danish Zodiac-series of mainstream-comedies with hardcore scenes.[12] Danish 愛のコリーダ (English title: In the Realm of the Senses) 1976 Based on a true story of a Japanese prostitute, features fellatio and other non-simulated sexual acts.[25][26] Japanese Through the Looking Glass 1976 This film by Jonas Middleton with many experimental and avant-garde elements features hardcore sex scenes, including fellatio.[27] English Agent 69 Jensen i Skorpionens tegn 1977 Fifth film in the Danish Zodiac-series of mainstream-comedies with hardcore scenes.[12] Danish La svastica nel ventre (English title: Nazi Love Camp 27). 1977 This film by Mario Caiano features actual penetration.[28] Italian L'Ange et la femme (English title: The Angel and the Woman) 1977 This film by Gilles Carle features at least one hardcore sex scene.[29] French, English Agent 69 Jensen i Skyttens tegn 1978 Sixth and final film in the Danish Zodiac-series of mainstream-comedies with hardcore scenes.[12] Danish The ABC of Love and Sex: Australia Style 1978 Australian documentary that shows actual sex scenes.[30] English Caligula 1979 Uncut version of this film includes several authentic sex scenes, including penetration, fellatio and ejaculation during the six minutes worth of inserts shot by the film's producer, Bob Guccione. The sex shot by Tinto Brass in the rest of the movie, although very explicit, was simulated.[31] English Immagini di un convento (English title: Images in a Convent) 1979 This film by Joe D'Amato contains many explicit sex scenes including a brutal and unsimulated rape scene.[32] Italian Cruising 1980 Director William Friedkin spliced in single frames of gay anal intercourse during at least one scene. Partially obscured sex acts, including fellatio and fisting. English Taxi zum Klo (English title: Taxi to the Toilet) 1980 A film directed by Frank Ripploh features hardcore gay sex scenes.[33] German, English, French Spetters 1980 This film directed by Paul Verhoeven features explicit hardcore sex scenes, including oral sex.[34] Dutch Les Fruits de la passion (English title: Fruits of Passion) 1981 This film by Shūji Terayama contains many explicit sex scenes, including unsimulated fellatio.[35] Cantonese, Japanese, English, French Caligola: La storia mai raccontata (English title: The Emperor Caligula: The Untold Story, or Caligula 2 - The Untold Story) 1982 The uncut European version of this film, directed by Joe D'Amato, features penetration, ejaculation and fellato in an orgy scene.[36] Italian Scandale 1982 This film by George Mihalka contains both softcore and hardcore sex scenes.[37] French L'alcova (English title: The Alcove) 1985 Film by Joe D'Amato contains a few real sex scenes.[38] Italian James Joyce's Women 1985 This film, directed by Michael Pearce, is based on James Joyce's Ulysses and shows about twenty minutes of real, on camera masturbation by Fionnula Flanagan, the main actress.[39] English Il Diavolo in Corpo (English title: Devil in the Flesh) 1986 Features a short scene of fellatio, during which the man tells the woman about Lenin's return to St. Petersburg in 1917.[40][41] Italian Hotel St. Pauli 1988 This film by Svend Wam shows unsimulated oral sex.[42] Norwegian, Swedish Paganini (Also known as Kinski Paganini) 1989 Klaus Kinski's feature film debut and also his last, it shows many graphic sex scenes, including actual female masturbation.[43] Italian トパーズ (Also known as: Tokyo Decadence and Topāzu) 1992 This film by Ryu Murakami about prostitution in Japan contains sexually explicit and graphic scenes, including explicit use of a vibrator and strap-on, as well as a urination scene. However, "Murakami didn't make this film to tickle people's libidos; he wanted to bring out the potential ugliness that can come through sex."[44] Japanese, English The Soft Kill 1994 The DVD version of this film, directed by Eli Cohen, features penetration.[45] English La Vie de Jésus (English title: The Life of Jesus) 1997 "In Life of Jesus, Dumont included extreme close-ups of penetration to emphasize the animal nature of the sex act."[46] French Idioterne (English title: The Idiots) 1998 This film by Lars von Trier features penetration and group sex.[47] Danish Fiona 1998 This film directed by Amos Kollek features a brief oral sex scene.[48] English Seul contre tous (English title: I Stand Alone) 1998 The film is Gaspar Noé's first feature-length production and features several actual sex scenes.[49] French Jezus is een Palestijn (English title: Jesus is a Palestinian) 1999 Director Lodewijk Crijns: "From the beginning I swore that there would be a visual penetration in my film. [...] Eventually that scene made it into the film and also in a way which I think is very surprising.[50] Dutch Romance 1999 Directed by Catherine Breillat, features male and female masturbation, fellatio, penetration, ejaculation, and sadomasochistic bondage.[51] French Pola X 1999 "Pola X ... acquired international notoriety for unsimulated sex scenes between the characters, though body doubles were reportedly used for the more graphic shots."[52] French La donna lupo (English title: The Man-Eater) 1999 Film by Aurelio Grimaldi contains a scene of actual fellatio.[53] Italian Guardami 1999 Based on the life of Italian porn actress Moana Pozzi, this film directed by Davide Ferrario shows real oral sex.[54] Italian Vampire Strangler 1999 A film by William Hellfire shows real fellatio by an actress Erin Brown.[55] English Giulia (English title: Julia) 1999 This film by Roy Stuart shows scenes of fellatio, cunnilingus and intercourse performed by actress Anna Bielska.[56] French Humanité 1999 A film by Bruno Dumont contain a lots of sex and nudity, including three hardcore scenes.[57] French, English Baise-moi 2000 Several actual sex scenes, including penetration and fellatio.[58] French Scrapbook 2000 This film by Eric Stanze shows real fellatio.[citation needed] English Scarlet Diva 2000 A semi-autobiographical film about Italian actress and director Asia Argento's life as an actress, it contains many non-simulated sex scenes according to herself.[59] English, Italian, French Intimacy 2001 Features fellatio. English Le Pornographe (English title: The Pornographer) 2001 This film by Bertrand Bonello shows many hardcore sex scenes, including penetration.[60] French Lucía y el sexo (English title: Sex and Lucia) 2001 This film by Julio Medem contains several real sex scenes, including penetration and fellatio from the porn movie made by one of the film's characters as well as manual stimulation of an erect penis and cunnilingus performed by and on another film's character.[61] Spanish, English Hundstage (English title: Dog Days) 2001 The first fictional feature film by director Ulrich Seidl contains a hardcore orgy scene.[62] German The Center of the World 2001 A film by Wayne Wang contains "the graphic sex of Triple-X videos".[63] English Ken Park 2002 The film was banned in Australia, as the Office of Film and Literature Classification said it contained scenes of "child sexual abuse, actual sex by people depicted as minors and sexualised violence". Cunnilingus, auto-erotic asphyxiation, urination, and group sex acts involving characters that are supposed to be teens are shown explicitly, but the sex is simulated with the exception of one scene showing a young man masturbating. All actors were actually over 18.[64] English Irréversible (English title: Irresistible) 2002 This film by Gaspar Noé shows unsimulated oral sex.[65] French La novia de Lázaro (English title: Lazaro’s Girlfriend) 2002 This film by Fernando Merinero features about a minute-long scene of explicit fellatio.[66] Spanish Le loup de la côte Ouest (English title: The Wolf of the West Coast) 2002 A Hugo Santiago film with recognizable stars James Faulkner and Anna Mouglalis features unsimulated sex scenes.[67] French, English Sud sanaeha (English title: Blissfully Yours) 2002 This film, directed by Apichatpong Weerasethakul, contains a scene of explicit fellatio.[68] Thai Choses secrètes (English title: Secret Things) 2002 A Jean-Claude Brisseau film about female sexuality that shows many explicit sex scenes, including public masturbation by a female character and a hardcore orgy scene. The first film of a trilogy.[69] French The Brown Bunny 2003 This film by Vincent Gallo features a scene of fellatio.[70] English Fallo! (English title: Do It! or Private) 2003 Film directed by Tinto Brass contains real fellatio.[71] Italian, French, English, Spanish Rossa Venezia 2003 This film by Andreas Bethmann features many hardcore sex scenes, mostly lesbian.[72] German The Principles of Lust 2003 Film by Penny Woolcock shows an orgy scene with several unsimulated sex acts, including oral sex.[73] English Bodysong 2003 A 2003 documentary about human life and the human condition, directed by Simon Pummell, features several hardcore sex scenes, including vaginal penetration, fellatio and cunnilingus.[74] English Anatomie de l'enfer (English title: Anatomy of Hell) 2004 By director Catherine Breillat, it features "actual sex, high-level sex scenes and high-level themes" according to the Australian Classification Review Board.[75] French 9 Songs 2004 Several non-simulated sex scenes, including penetration, fellatio, cunnilingus and ejaculation.[58] English The Raspberry Reich 2004 Includes unsimulated heterosexual and homosexual sex, Including penetrative oral and anal intercourse.[76] English Story of the Eye 2004 Based on the novel Story of the Eye by Georges Bataille, this film, directed by Andrew Repasky McElhinney contains many hardcore sex scenes.[77] English Kärlekens språk 2000 2004 A Swedish sex educational film directed by Anders Lennberg shows many unsimulated sex scenes.[78] Swedish All About Anna 2005 Producer Innocent Pictures asserted that "[w]ithout the sex scenes, the film's drama would fall apart. This was a particular challenge to the film's cast, who had to cope with the traditional social and human traumas associated with having real sex in front of a camera. Fortunately the film's actors and actresses managed to extend their dramatic performances way beyond the norm and truly managed to push the envelope, achieving new means of dramatic expression. The sex scenes were carefully planned and rehearsed prior to shooting, allowing the actors to stay in character through every embrace and caress."[79] English 8mm 2 2005 A film directed by J. S. Cardone, featuring various erotic scenes that include complete nudity, group sex, female masturbation, oral stimulation, authentic pornography frames, and lesbian cunnilingus.[80] English Kissing on the Mouth 2005 Film by Joe Swanberg contains a real scene of masturbation with ejaculation.[81] English 天邊一朵雲 (English title: The Wayward Cloud) 2005 This film directed by Tsai Ming-liang features fellatio and penetration.[82][83] Mandarin Princesas 2005 This film by Fernando León de Aranoa contains a scene of explicit fellatio.[84] Spanish Lie with Me 2005 A film by Clement Virgo, based on the novel of the same title, contains "medium-to-hardcore sex".[85] English, Spanish Shortbus 2006 Several actors perform real sexual acts including explicit masturbation, autofellatio, coitus, and heterosexual and homosexual fellatio.[58][86] English Destricted 2006 Seven short films by artists and film-makers commissioned to "explore the fine line where art and pornography intersect", it "contains strong, real sex".[87][88] English Taxidermia 2006 This film, directed by György Pálfi features actual penetration.[89] Hungarian, English, Russian Les Anges Exterminateurs 2006 The second Jean-Claude Brisseau film that explores female sexuality. It shows unsimulated female masturbation.[90] French Auftauchen (Also known as Amour fou) 2006 Felicitas Korn's feature film debut shows several authentic sex scenes.[91] German Ex Drummer 2007 The real sex scenes were performed by hired porn actors. Dutch It Is Fine! Everything Is Fine. 2007 This film directed by David Brothers and Crispin Glover contains actual penetration.[92] English L'histoire de Richard O. (English title: The Story of Richard O.) 2007 This film by Damien Odoul shows numerous real sex scenes.[93] French, Finnish Import/Export 2007 The second fictional feature film by Ulrich Seidl contains several authentic sex scenes, including female masturbation and anal fingering. The authenticity of the fellatio scene is debatable.[94] German, Slovak, Russian, English El Búfalo de la noche (English title: The Night Buffalo) 2007 This film by Jorge Hernandez Aldana contains an explicit fellatio scene.[95] Spanish Water in Milk Exists 2008 A brief (less than 23 minutes) art "structure" by Lawrence Weiner and Kiki Allgeier, in association with Swiss Institute Contemporary Art New York.[96][97] "Scenes alternate between often-thrilling hardcore porn and contrived and tedious philosophical musings about “personal definitions of reality” and “string theory.”."[98] The film features several actors performing real penetrative sex and other sexual practices such as female masturbation, male masturbation, mutual masturbation and homosexual fellatio. English Serbis (English title: Service) 2008 Directed by Brillante Mendoza, it shows explicit fellatio.[99] Filipino, Tagalog Tropical Manila 2008 This film, directed by Sang-woo Lee, contain several explicit sex acts, including real fellatio.[100] Filipino, Korean À l'aventure 2008 The third film by Jean-Claude Brisseau about female sexuality contains many explicit sex scenes, including authentic female masturbation and orgasm.[101][102] French Amateur Porn Star Killer 2 2008 This film by Shane Ryan includes explicit scenes of penetration and oral sex. The second film of a trilogy.[103] English Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit 2009 Also known as "Skin. Like. Sun." this film by Jennifer Lyon Bell and Murielle Scherre features sex in near real time with two actors Wim van Damme and Floor Wyns.[104] French Antichrist 2009 This film by Lars von Trier features a scene of penetrative vaginal intercourse, and also includes graphically violent sexual imagery. Body doubles were used to make the film.[105] English Enter the Void 2009 This film, directed by Gaspar Noé contains some unsimulated sexual activity.[106] English, Japanese The Band 2009 This film directed by Anna Brownfield features numerous sequences of unsimulated sex.[107] English Dogtooth 2009 A film by Giorgos Lanthimos. "The brief real sex is used to establish the unusual and dysfunctional lifestyle that results from the isolation orchestrated by the dictatorial father, including incest."[108] Greek Bedways 2010 This film by Rolf Peter Kahl shows real sex scenes, including a ten-minute-long scene of masturbation.[109] German The Bunny Game 2010 This film directed by Adam Rehmeier contains an explicit scene of fellatio.[110] English Killer Bitch 2010 Controversial in many aspects, this film by Liam Galvin contains real sex scenes according to executive producer John Fleming.[111] English Año bisiesto (English title: Leap Year) 2010 Film by Michael Rowe features unsimulated sex scenes.[112] Spanish Gandu 2010 An Indian film, directed by Qaushiq Mukherjee, that contains actual sex scenes.[113] Bengali Q (English title: Desire) 2011 A 2011 French film, directed by Laurent Bouhnik, which features several graphic unsimulated depictions of sex.[114] French Hotel Desire 2011 This short film directed by Sergej Moya contains an unsimulated sex scene between the actors Saralisa Volm and Clemens Schick.[115] German 愛很爛 (English title: Love Actually... Sucks!) 2011 A Hong Kong film, directed by Scud, features fellatio.[116] Mandarin, Cantonese, English Caged 2011 A 2011 Dutch film directed by Stephan Brenninkmeijer, it contains several explicit hardcore sex scenes.[117] Dutch Léa 2011 This film, directed by Bruno Rolland, contains an unsimulated scene of cunniligus.[118] French The Slut 2011 This film, directed by Israeli actress Hagar Ben-Asher, features real penetration.[119] Hebrew Sexual Chronicles of a French Family 2012 Jean-Marc Barr, co-director of the film, said that "the DVD is the 'sensual' version of the film. A 'sexual' version—four minutes longer, and showcasing erections and penetration—also exists."[120][121] French Starlet 2012 This film by Sean S. Baker contains a scene of penetration.[122] English Joven y alocada (English title: Young and Wild) 2012 A Chilean film, directed by Marially Rivas, features many explicit sex scenes, including several real sex inserts.[123] Spanish Nymphomaniac 2013 To produce scenes of unsimulated sex, director Lars von Trier had the genitals of porn actors digitally composited onto the bodies of the film's cast.[124] English Pornopung 2013 A 2013 Norwegian film, directed by Johan Kaos, that features a scene of explicit fellatio.[125] Norwegian Stranger by the Lake 2013 Directed by Alain Guiraudie, Stranger by the Lake contains scenes of unsimulated sex that were shot using body doubles.[126] French Blue is the warmest color 2013 Directed by Abdellatif Kechiche, Justin Chang, writing for Variety, said that the film contains "the most explosively graphic lesbian sex scenes in recent memory".[127] French Pasolini 2014 A film by Abel Ferrara, about the final day in the life of Pier Paolo Pasolini, shows several actual sex scenes, including fellatio.[128] English, Italian, French

Manju1971 (talk) 07:00, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Grayfell (talk) 06:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.)

Please remove the entry for this film, as this article deals with _mainstream_ films that happen to contain unsimulated sex acts. Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.) is the second movie by Murielle Scherre, the first one was called "Je fais du porno et j'aime ça" (I make porn and I like it), a collection of shorts that was offered for sale with a Belgian magazine and is still for sale.

IMDB lists Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.) as a documentary, which would exclude it from this article as such; it is furthermore simply a sex movie (porn or not, that is up for argument), with little or no plot other than the sex acts. The source you quote (ForTheGirls.com) is simply a porn site with a fancy 'erotica' name.

LuperT23 (talk) 14:12, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

References

Yup. Looks like it's been removed, so I'm setting this to answered. Grayfell (talk) 06:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

A Scream in the Streets

I listed this film here, but I'll most probably remove it as after I watched the film I'am not shore it contains unsimulated scenes. And the scenes are definitely very close to hardcore. But, I have several questions anyway: 1. Can this film be found at megavideo.com and if it can, are there the characters for all the cast, especially actresses? 2. I really need a help to find out the name of actress who played a girl in massage parlor. I know it is difficult (the actress is not well-known) but maybe somebody could find out her name in some way. THANKS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 11:18, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2015

Unsimulated sex is the presentation in a film of sex scenes where the actors engage in an actual sex act, and are not just miming or simulating the actions. At one time in the United Sates...

"United Sates" should be changed to "United States"

Unsimulated sex is the presentation in a film of sex scenes where the actors engage in an actual sex act, and are not just miming or simulating the actions. At one time in the United States... 72.66.43.136 (talk) 03:02, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 03:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2015

60.219.11.101 (talk) 15:12, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

 Not done as you have not requested a change. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka ^{Talk to me!} _{See what I have done} 21:03, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Removed W.R.: Mysteries of the Organism

W.R is an Experimental film. It is a type of the cinema and describes a range of filmmaking styles that are generally quite different from, and often opposed to, the practices of mainstream and documentary filmmaking. W.R explores the relationship between sexuality and communist politics with the main goal to criticize the communist regime in former Yugoslavia. It also explores the life and work of Wilhelm Reich. Despite the fact that the film intercuts documentary footage with, a narrative (near the end) about a Yugoslav woman who seduces a Soviet ice skater, it gives a single story about human sexuality and revolution through montage effect. However, the experimental "techniques" used in the film may be seen in W.R.: Mysteries of the Organism/Episodes. So, all in all, film does contain some elements of drama and even fantasy, but much more an experimental elements. About the sex scenes: Film contains many very explicit, but simulated scenes, including unsimulated manual stimulation of penis in documentary footage. This scene should show that masturbation is a natural human behavior. Also, the similar scene exist in 1900, but that film is not on the list since there were no general agreement about putting the film on the list because of such scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 18:26, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Nymphomaniac

And Nymphomaniac? And Diet of Sex (Spanish film)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.77.4.204 (talk) 23:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The Center of the World doesn't belong on this page.

The only citation for Wayne Wang's The Center of the World's supposed unsimulated sex scene is a capsule review from the Sacramento News & Review, which uses the vague – and misleading – phrasing, "This unrated, digital-video string of Pretty Woman and Leaving Las Vegas moments schmooses with the graphic sex of Triple-X videos".

I have seen the film, and there are no scenes of unsimulated sex between the two actors whose characters have intercourse in the story, Peter Sarsgaard and Molly Parker. As Sarsgaard and Parker were already well-established actors in 2001, on-screen unsimulated sex between them would have been newsworthy.

In fact, neither actor displays any full-frontal nudity in the film. The only reason it received an NC-17 is because of a brief shot, early on, of a stripper (not Parker) partially sticking a lollipop into her vagina.

I request that this film be removed from the page.

Well, you are not quite right.The "Reception" paragraph in The Center of the World says that film contains full-frontal nudity and the source http://www.filmsite.org/sexinfilms60.html mentions even more (anal penetration, oral sex, rape with penetration...). However, my reasoning is that film should stay on the list at least for the lollipop scene. This is a brief scene, but is a sexual in its nature since it may be considered as a kind of female masturbation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 09:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2015

82.114.169.100 (talk) 02:06, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Grayfell (talk) 02:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2015

185.11.8.43 (talk) 02:06, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Grayfell (talk) 02:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it a little bit odd that there are four "Semi-protected edit request" on this talk page with actually no requests for any editions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 07:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2015

The description beside "Love" (last film on the list currently) needs to be revised to be less timely and more encyclopedic and to remove POV statement, and should also reference its notoriety as a 3-D release. Suggest rewording to "This film by Gaspar Noé features scenes of unsimulated sexual activity and is notable as being a 3-D release." (PS: I'm not connected to the anons who left those blank requests earlier.) 68.146.52.234 (talk) 23:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

 Already done -BZTMPS ★ · (talk? contribs?) 15:15, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Larry Clark: Ken Park

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0209077/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:63:2B35:C01:C37:A12F:2118:16F4 (talk) 06:53, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

IMDB is not a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.137.127 (talk) 08:14, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• I think there are other sources indicating at least some of the sexual activity is real but I agree the IMDb shouldn't count; another source is needed because some productions can be very convincing. There is another Clark film from 2013 called Jonathan that I've seen and it is unambiguously unsimulated - there's a fellatio scene that is done right out in the clear - but I don't know if this list takes into account short films, which is what this one is. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 13:31, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think that the general "problem" with Larry Clark's films is his "obsession" with underage sex; in another words his films are more like the experiments that should explore underage sexual behavior, and so they belong much more to experimental type of film than to mainstream, big budget type, with the main goal just to tell the story. Also, Ken Park is banned in Australia for, among the other reasons, being a "child pornography" (censorship in Australia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 16:41, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. Acclaimed films such as Pretty Baby and The Tin Drum have likewise been banned and/or accused of being child pornography, yet they are not considered "experimental". Metropolis was an experimental film. So was 2001 A Space Odyssey. This list does not and should not violate WP:NPOV and make a judgement call as to what constitutes an "experimental film". By your criteria virtually all of the entries on this list would have to be deleted. All I was asking is if this list is only for feature-length films (which by their very nature have wider distribution - most of Larry Clark's feature films you can order on Amazon if you want) or if we can include short films that generally do not get very wide distribution and are often only circulated online (which I think is the case with Jonathan). 68.146.52.234 (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Second opinion on pornography definition

Although the stated definition of what pornography is as opposed to mainstream non-porn does have a good citation, I think in this case there should be second opinions given. You'll find non-trivial sources rebutting the opinion that if a film with hardcore sequences isn't just about sex than it isn't porn. For example, there are movies listed here that are in fact about sex - that is their prime plot motivator - therefore under the definition cited they could be considered porn. It's such a touchy subject - especially when actors are challenged about agreeing to do such films - that I'd personally feel more comfortable with a more diverse range of cited opinion on the definition. It might also serve to help narrow down the criteria of what films should and shouldn't be included here. By some definitions, Deep Throat wasn't a porn film because it had a plot, while Nine Songs - an example of a film where the actors vehemently oppose calling it porn - can be defined as porn because except for the musical sequences sex is pretty much all the film is about. And there have been cases of porn films being reedited and shown in R-rated and even non-sexual versions at film festivals, mainstream theatres, etc. Examples include Cafe Flesh from the 1980s, Dixie Ray Hollywood Star from the 1970s, Night Trips from the late 80s, the Pirates series from a few years ago that you could even rent at Blockbuster, and a number of the recent porn parodies of things like Star Wars are often shown in non-sexual edits that actually stand as viable films. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2015

36.224.152.38 (talk) 00:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The Slut (aka The Giver, originally הנותנת)

Totally out of character (no pun intended) for an actor/host like Ishai Golan to perform actual sex. According to an interview translated in Haaretz he didn't here. Seems Todd McCarthy got sucked in and I'm sure the producers are grateful for the publicity. 79.180.58.208 (talk) 20:50, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I removed it. Uziel302 (talk) 04:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Rationale

Aside from this being simply a list (which as the above note from Titule shows contains some disputed examples), it would serve the mandate of Wikipedia to include a section on the rationale for including unsimulated scenes. In erotic film the rationale is self-explanatory, but supposedly there is usually some artistic excuse supposed to be given for going this route in mainstream cinema. Since such scenes usually result in media coverage, there should be sufficient third-party, reliable sources to draw from to indicate why, for example, Winterbottom decided it was necessary to go unsimulated in 9 Songs, or Noe in Love 3-D. And there should be sufficient opposing view to rebut the necessity of such explicitness too (I was just flipping through a book on directing films on the weekend that made a good case for why directors should actually avoid nudity and excessive sex, the rationale being that it takes the audience out of the story and put them in a headspace the director may not want them to be in for the film.) 68.146.233.86 (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Remove "Irréversible"

I followed the link to http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,429974_2,00.html (cite 65) that should serves evidence to the claim that this movie contains unsimulated oral sex. I did not find anything about that. In fact, there is only one sentence about this movie: "The other movie, an unrated French import called ”Irréversible,” nearly caused a riot last May when its unblinking nine-minute rape sequence had its first showing in Cannes and has since sharply divided critics."

There is one short scene where there is a prono movie running on a tv in the background with oral sex, but that doesn't count as it is a movie in the movie.

If there is no better evidence, "Irréversible" should be removed from the list

--Titule (talk) 19:18, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done Better late than never. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 04:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2016

Nymphomaniac Vol. 1 and 2 (2014) should be added to this list. There are real blowjobs and sex. 112.211.25.215 (talk) 14:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

 Done - item(s) now added - should now be ok - please post if otherwise of course - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 21:19, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

We should have a reference there. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 04:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I've looked it up, it's fancy body doubles waist down which apparently counts per other body doubles in the list. That kind of thing does need to be distinguished here as to do otherwise implies the stars are having sex when they're not. Hence the need to look up references and report what that they say. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 05:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Unnecessary POV descriptions

I have noticed a number of the brief descriptions are referring to some films as "classic"; it's not our job to assess whether these films are good, bad, "classic", or whatever--that is left to critics and those aspects of the films are reported on the films' pages if they are deemed notable enough to have one. Please avoid use of POV words such as "classic" or indeed any attempt to assess the film's value, genre, etc. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 03:28, 1 April 2016 (UTC) Apologies, seem to have April fooled myself, putting this is in the wrong order first time. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 03:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Do body doubles count or not?

The first line of the article says the actors are actually having sex, no reference to body doubles. Does that mean we should remove films from the list which "only" have doubles filling in? That would remove The Idiots and several others. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 04:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I think we should. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 18:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Shouldn't matter if it's a body double or not as someone is still being shown in a mainstream film engaging in unsimulated activity. It's no different than having a scene in which extras are shown engaging. The point of the list are films (and IMO we'll probably be adding TV shows to this list before long) showing the activity. 68.146.233.86 (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

The description of Hotel Desire states that the main actors have unsimulated sex, but for the oral and penetration shots, you can clearly see that body doubles are used. One woman has a scar on her stomach and the other does not.

Q (Desire)

The entry for this one should include a note that the North American DVD release (titled "Desire") edits out the unsimulated scenes. I've seen both versions and it's unambiguous - the infamous car scene, for example, switches to a distance shot of the vehicle during the key moments (in order to preserve the dialogue). 68.146.233.86 (talk) 12:36, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Rather than this just being a list

I know from long experience with Wikipedia that there's always a bit of hesitancy when it comes to straight list articles. Readers/researchers want more "meat". How about add a section in which - using reliable sources, interviews, etc - the rationale for showing unsimulated sexual activity in mainstream films is discussed. In theory few of the films listed are intended to be erotica, in which sexually arousing the audience is the goal, therefore their sexual content could have been depicted in a simulated fashion. And in the overwhelming majority of cases, sex scenes exist only as character building moments or mood-setters and contribute nothing substantial to the plot. I'm sure there has been discussion of an academic, non-trivial nature as to why, for example, the director of 9 Songs chose to make his film hardcore, even realizing that in doing so his potential market just got sliced to a fraction. Did von Triers need to show hardcore in Nymphomaniac? What was their reasoning? Similarly, actors and actresses who have participated have also been asked for their rationale, with some defending the decision because of various reasons, while others have expressed regret in later years for having done the scene(s). This of course would need to be handled carefully because of WP:BLP. 68.146.233.86 (talk) 16:20, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

according to the title of the article, the introductory text really must be longer and far more comprehensive including a section for rationale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.184.37 (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I do agree that a simple list is not really interesting. This article should evolve to something more comprehensive about the reasons why a director includes unsimulated sex scenes despite all the difficulties. Steff-X (talk) 18:28, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

f rated film

What does that mean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.123.19 (talk) 22:23, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

About El Topo ("rape")

I know that is what Jorodowsky says happened in his book. Maybe it even happened. But can you actually see any of this on screen? If not, maybe there's other material that qualifies (it's a very long film, and I haven't seen it, so I don't know). Anyway, that quote is not a source for the content of the film itself, it's a source for what A.J. says happened when he was filming the scene (which may or may not depict the act unambiguously). We need a source that describes what is actually depicted on the screen by reviewers. There have been many times when directors or others hint at sexual activity having taken place in order to generate controversy (free advertising, etc.). This may have been one of those times, else why shouldn't A.J. have feared criminal prosecution? ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:49, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

There is no rape scene in El Topo, and I'm removing it from the list for the second time.--Froglich (talk) 11:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I haven't seen it in awhile but I am pretty sure the rape scene was shown onscreen Cinemafan24

Un Chant D'Amour 1950

A film directed by Jean Genet contains a scene of real masturbation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un_chant_d%27amour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnh0CQQL1FI 7.15 - 7.30 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.162.81 (talk) 16:19, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Someone explained earlier that short films don't count for this list (allegedly due to distribution and several other problems). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talk • contribs) 20:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Missing titles

• Batalla en en cielo / Battle in Heaven (2005)- a scene of penetration is (un)certain, for the fellatio scene actress said that prosthetic penis she used.
• Ex Drummer (2007) for sure (a hired porn stars did h/c scenes)
• A Hole in My Heart (2004) almost certainly (there was a real penetration but was never shown)
• We Are the Flesh is also missing from the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.7.49.121 (talk) 10:50, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Krikke (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2018

The movie "Ex Drummer" from 2007 should be added to the list.

It contains one scene of implicit sexual intercourse that is apparently performed by body doubles.

Source:

Scene can be seen here: 178.24.0.121 (talk) 09:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Wikipedia articles are not used as cites for other articles, particularly when the first article is making uncited statements. The second offered cite is apparently [[WP:|USERGENERATED]] and also fails to be a reliable source. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2018

Cinemafan24 (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I would like to add El Topo to the list of unsimulated sex films as Jodorowsky raped a woman on the set of the film, and the rape was featured in the film — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinemafan24 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I think this should be added with a valid source, and restoring the comment, as I understand why it was removed per BLP, however the Alejandro Jodorowsky and El Topo pages discusses this as a rape with direct quotations from Jodorowsky using that word. JesseRafe (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Upsidedown Keyboard (talk) 15:34, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

The_Tin_Drum

Volker Schlöndorff's 1979 The_Tin_Drum_(film) should be added. Hjsalchow (talk) 11:53, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks User:Hjsalchow, but only if reliable sources state that the sexual activity in that film is genuinely unsimulated, as opposed to just being graphic. Our article only says the actors appear to have sex. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:11, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

The Brown Bunny

A prosthetic penis was used and therefore this film should be removed from the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.119.66 (talk • contribs)

Thanks but do you have a source to support your claim? The current cited source states it was unsimulated. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 11:53, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2018

Listing for Wetlands is incorrect. Should read something along the lines of "four men... on one spinach pizza" not "several men... on twenty pizzas" Bloobie2018 (talk) 00:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

 Done. The source also mentions 20 pizzas, but this was apparently in reference to how many pizzas were used in the making of the film. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 06:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Suggestion regarding the list

Could someone who knows how to do it, please divide it into decades (1960-1969, 1970-1979, etc.)? The list is now so long it has reached the point of essentially discouraging editing. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 01:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

It seems like one reason the list is so long and unwieldy, once the title of the article was changed simply to "Unsimulated sex" without qualification, we opened to the door to people adding porn films, both from the so-called Golden Age up to the more recent Forced Entry (2003). Why was the article title changed in the first place given the criteria for the list has not changed according to the aritcle itself? We could also pare things down by splitting as per my suggestion below regarding films with inserts added post production by people other than the original director.ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Sources

We cannot include titles on the list based on a video clip on a site whose purpose is to display such clips (just as a YouTube clip would be unreliable). The source has to be a secondary source reviewing or discussing the content, or some other form of independent confirmation. I'm removing a few that I spotted today.ZarhanFastfire (talk) 23:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this on, ZarhanFastfire. I took a stab at cleaning up the worst of it a while back, but I got sidetracked, as I often do. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Hardcore inserts

I think we really ought to have a serious discussion about these. There are examples in the list (Double Face, 99 Women) where the inserts were made as much as seven years after the film's original release, and (as per usual) not even in the country where the film was originally made. So, nothing to do with the original production nor its original release (not that this lapse of time is noted in the entry for Double Face). This is simply ridiculous. Does it really serve any purpose to list such a film here when the film otherwise plays no role in the history of unsimluated sex in film? No, and in fact, it's actively misleading to the casual reader. Would it not make sense for there to be a second category for such things? Caligula would go there for the same reason, as Tinto Brass never filmed the hardcore scenes later added by Bob Guccione. There should be one list for films where unsimulated sex was part of the production as conceived by the director, and another for films which were re-edited for another market by someone else. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 03:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The original title needs to be restored. That will help a lot to keep the article a reasonable size. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

In fact, Unsimulated sex in film is still too broad. It should be something like Unsimulated sex in mainstream films. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, even if 'mainstream' is contentious to some editors. Still, almost anything is better than what we've got right now. We could at least restore one of the older titles till we agree on something more airtight. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Was Blue Movie shown in any theatre other than A.W.'s own (Garrick Cinema) and an art gallery (Whitney Museum of American Art) or something?

So I had a look at the four references that I could actually see and read of the five which appear in our article. The first one in the main article part leads nowhere at the moment. Another is behind a paywall. Finally, none of the other three confirm that Blue Movie was ever shown anywhere other than Warhol's own theatre in NYC and another little theatre in the same city. How exactly does that constitute "mainstream" release? There is a world of difference between the impact a film has and how it is shown and to whom. He claimed at the time this was the first time sex had ever been shown in film at all which sounds dubious to me (but that's another story). By the way, Warhol is again one of these people where it's debatable that what you're talking about is even film in the usual sense: he was going to call this thing Fuck, in much they way he'd done Sleep and Eat. These are not films in the sense of having anything remotely like plot or character. They're like pictures that move, not things people would be expected to go to see around the country. I have a feeling this one needs to be taken off the list unless someone can provide a source saying it was shown in multiple theatres when it was released. Good luck with that. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 00:58, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Asking the question again: should we split the list?

I'd make this an RfC if I knew how...

We kind of got sidetracked from this issue, which I think is an important one and which affects the structure of the article, and is about why the article was made in the first place. In particular, I'd like to hear from User:Baba i deda, as the person who has added most of the entries in this list. In any case, I don't like to act without consensus on something major. I think we should split the list into (1) the films with unsimulated sex which appeared in mainstram theatres on their original release, and (2) a list of films that were at some point released in multiple versions, occasionally at the same time, like Caligula, or even Alice in Wonderland which is kind of the reverse situation: a porno remade into mainstream release. Functionally it's the same thing. The article even has the beginning of a section dealing with pornos re-edited for mainstream; we could just tweak that a bit so it could introduce the second list, and start moving everything that applies there. I think the distinction absolutely has to be made, otherwise the list is very misleading, implying something which simply isn't true: that the director must have chosen to make both films, one with real sex in it. Sometimes that's true; there are directors who made a whole career of that. But those films are basically being released in more than one version for more than one market. They are secondary to the main topic, existing in a kind of netherworld; the mainstream version will always be better known by definition, and more relevant to cinematic history. When someone made a British sex comedy and released another version with sex in it for "export" that does not mean the export version got shown in mainstream cinemas in, say, Paris. Unless someone knows different, I'm inclined to believe it got shown in porno theatres in Paris. In any case, the main release in the home nation is what counts to most people who originally saw it--most people would never have known that a hardcore version "exists"--and if it's not made by the director, why should they care? So, to make a long diatribe short, I am asking you all, should we split the list along these lines, Yes or No? ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:24, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

not having been here in a while I posted an extensive idea on your direct talk page not realising you asked it here. Please let me know what you think of my thoughts. Lostinlodos (talk) 22:55, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

The list could be spit within the article based upon the two criteria proposed. The problem is defining mainstream as theatrical release. Does appearing in one major city in the country of origin count? Does appearing on a streaming service such as NetFlix make theaters irrelevant for current films?--WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:43, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Add new movie A Thought of Ecstasy (2017)

I would like to add A Thought of Ecstasy (2017) to the list of unsimulated sex films.Uncut version (90 min.) of this film, directed by Rolf Peter Kahl contains full-frontal nudity, erect penises, fellatio, penetration, exposed vaginas and unsimulated sex scenes. Sources here, here and here

No problem, the film will be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.144.141 (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 22 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Opposition was unanimous, with editors pointing out that the article isn't just a list, and "mainstream" is a bit ambiguous. One editor suggested returning the article to its former descriptive title, Unsimulated sex in film, which may be worth exploring in another RM (no prejudice against restarting a new RM for that or another title if a better one is identified). Cúchullain ^t/c 13:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

---

Unsimulated sex → List of mainstream films with unsimulated sex scenes – The current article is a list, and is not likely to become anything else. WriterArtistDC (talk) 19:25, 22 August 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 20:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I see that most editors refer to this as a list, so this is simply a rename to make that clear. The cleanup to address the "multiple issues" tag would be elimination of any material that does not define the criteria for inclusion on the list, and some ref supporting each film's meeting those criteria. There might be some grouping possible based upon different criteria.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:34, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I don't have any objections to listifying the name, but "mainstream" seems a bit weaselly to me. In this context it means "non-pornographic", but in others it could exclude art-house and independent film. I also think "unsimulated" is unnecessarily verbose. Personally I would just go with List of non-pornographic films with real sex. That said I don't oppose the proposal because it is an improvement on the status quo, but we can make it slightly more optimal IMO. Betty Logan (talk) 05:48, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

I have no strong preference for any wording except that it should reflect what is used in reference sources. I think this tends toward "unsimulated" rather than "real", the former being the keyword attached to films in the major source, IMDB. The title should reflect the wording most likely to be used to find the article, while defining the topic must be left to the opening section. I would not do the rename until after the Labor Day holiday, in hopes of having additional comments.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 13:07, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose as unnecessary and per the fact that "Unsimulated sex" would continue to redirect here and this article doesn't have to include the list. The article has sections and a list. If people really want to keep the list, and want it separate from this article, that could be broken out into its own article. But do see WP:Spinout. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:12, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Further investigation shows the tortured history of the article. Apparently created in 2006 as a "list of" it survived a deletion proposal in 2007 but lost one in 2009 only to be moved to a user space and revived? Also, there were once several section of films with different criteria which have been combined into a single list. Basic problems are:

1. The definition of what is included/excluded. In the article, "mainstream" is indeed used weaselly to avoid saying non-pornographic. However, both can be defined: mainstream in terms of general distribution and public acceptance, which excludes all explicitly sexual films (not even NC-17 is mainstream); and non-pornographic in the same terms as Pornographic film. Thus the title, list or not, should include "...in non-pornographic film".
2. Notability to be a real article with reliable sources and no original research. OR is likely the reason behind the 2015 "multiple problems" tag, editors having attempted to add content to make the topic appear encyclopedic when the current sources do not support that content. However, I think there is a notable topic based upon a search of my university library online. While not part of mainstream media, several recent films have been reviewed by mainstream critics, if only to decry the failings of directors with mainstream credits to succeed in the making of such a film.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 14:39, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. As nom points out above, their initial rationale is blatantly false. This is not just a list, and was not at the time of raising the RM. [11] The material is supported by online references, but it has been challenged as to whether these support the material adequately. This should be discussed, but the material concerned is both interesting and likely to be true, so I'm skeptical that it will be difficult to reference it. Andrewa (talk) 20:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose This article was called Unsimulated sex in film, I think it might be better to go back to that. Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 00:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Comment'@WriterArtistDC (much earlier in thread) IMDB is not "the major source" of anything, it's user-generated content and acknowledged universally on Wiki as unreliable. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment after close

When making my comment above, I did think of the List of highest-grossing films article that Betty Logan watches and regularly contributes to. It has sections that are not simply a list, but that material is there for needed context and encyclopedic comprehensiveness. The Unsimulated sex article is not the same in its current format. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:20, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, it really depends what the prose is doing in a list-class article. I wrote around 75% of the prose at the box-office article and its sole function is to present the charts and provide context for them. If you took the charts out you'd have to take the prose out too, or at least completely reconfigure it i.e. you would be more or less left without an article. A better comparison for this article would be List of films in the public domain in the United States: if you took the chart off that page the prose could survive more or less as an article in its own right; you can make a case either way, but the table is still the dominant feature on that page which is why I would consider it a list. Betty Logan (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Some of the prose is quite recent, added by me. I was not aware it was not appropriate for a list article. There have been calls for more prose on the talk page going back years, I thought I was being helpful but may have confused things in this instance.ZarhanFastfire (talk) 13:54, 7 September 2018 (UTC)