Talk:Two Little Boys

On 26 May 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Two Little Boys (Rolf Harris song). The result of the discussion was not moved.

Napoleonic battlefield?

The first time I heard this song was on the album Bluegrass at Carnegie Hall by The Country Gentlemen 1962, and have always believed the song was refering to the American Civil War. Why would two American songwriters be refering to the Napoleonic Wars? Thanks, Lion King (talk) 17:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was definitely about the American Civil War. Firstly Rolf Harris actually pointed this out when he first sang the song - and even pointed out that the boys ended up fighting on opposite sides in the war (it was allegedly a true story or at least a widely believed legend). Secondly, the references to "the ranks so blue" are clearly references to "Union Blue" - the colour of the uniform of the Union soldiers, as distinct from confederate Grey. Also, it was written in 1902 when the Civil War would still have been in living memory, whereas the Napoleonic wars were certainly not. David Kessler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.23.160 (talk) 19:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a song - not a history. It isn't based on any actual events. The verses do not suggest any particular war - except the reference to a blue uniform. The words do not suggest that the boys are fighting on different sides. Read them. I believe that it is simply a generic war - and certainly not a civil war. The boys planned to grow up to the soldiers (to fight for their country) - not to fight in a civil war! Remembering that it was written at the turn of the century, if the composers had a real war in mind, what about the Boer War? Wasn't blue was the colour of the uniform of the Boer states armies.JohnC (talk) 10:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the BBC article that is linked at the very bottom of the wikipedia article, explains this. The song is from 1902, but there is a story (written in 1884) set on the Napoleonic battlefields, that is so similar to the story of the song, that it is likely that Madden might have known the story (or its essential bits). Otto von B (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The song is definitely not about the American civil war. It is about a war. It could be any war. People assume the boys fought on different sides. The lyrics don't suggest that at all. In fact from the context that is unlikely. The reference in the introduction to the American civil war should be deleted, as it is not based on any evidence. Any comments Rolf Harris may have made are irrelevant. He didn't write the song.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 03:58, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This song is DEFINITELY about the Civil War. First off, it was written by two Americans in 1902. Additionally, the lyrics as sung by Beryl Middleton have the line "to the lad in gray" instead of "to where Joe lay", which is the evidence that gives credence to others' claims it's about them fighting on opposite sides of the war. My mother had the record growing up by Beryl Middleton. And it's not only her -- this person who claims to work at the publish company that produced that version also states the lyrics were "lad in gray", and that Lauder changed the lyrics since the UK audience wouldn't understand the Blue/Gray references. Think about it, why was "ranks of blue" in the song anyway? What other war famously refers to one side as "blue"? https://www.songfacts.com/facts/rolf-harris/two-little-boys ... And finally, BBC agrees with the conclusion that it was likely about the Civil War: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7724596.stm—Preceding unsigned comment added by Radolumbo (talk • contribs) 05:49, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Music based on Raff symphony?

Just the other day, I heard a commentator on A.B.C. radio (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) say that the music for this song was based on a theme in a symphony by the now-obscure Swiss composer Joachim Raff. I've heard several commentaries recently on popular songs, so I'm not totally sure - but I *think* it was Scott Speck who said this. And I recalled that years ago I heard a symphony by this composer, and one of the few tunes that still stuck in my mind was a fragment that was in fact very similar to the opening of the tune for "Two Little Boys". The funny thing is that I have known the fragment from the symphony for maybe 20 years, and have known the song for at least a few years now, but I never drew the connection until it was pointed out the other day on the A.B.C. program.

I would edit the article to mention this, but for two problems:

1. I don't remember which of the 11 symphonies Raff wrote it was, although I *think* it was either no. 3, called "Im Walde" (In the Forest), or no. 5, called "Lenore". The reference would be a bit lame if I can't remember (or find out) which symphony it was.

2. I only remember a couple of bars of the tune from the Raff symphony now (which I haven't heard for many years), and those bars are practically identical to the opening of the song - but, since I don't remember more than that fragment of the symphony now, I can't tell whether the song and the symphony diverge thereafter or whether the similarity continues. If they diverge, a few bars' similarity could be coincidence; but if the two continue similarly for several more bars, it could scarcely be a coincidence.

Does anyone know more about this? Can they confirm just how long the similarity continues between the two, or can they find a definite reference that says the song was based on the symphony?

If so, it might be worth mentioning this in the article. M.J.E. (talk) 13:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just now, I heard this song played on A.B.C. radio, and the first question in the regular quiz in the Overnight program was about who wrote the song. The answer given was as mentioned in the article; but, in the ensuing discussion, a talkback caller phoned in and pointed out the Raff connection. He said that the song's melody came from the third movement of Raff's 5th symphony. So it is more than just Scott Speck's opinion that the music is drawn from the symphony. (He wrongly named the composer as "Carl Raff", but that is probably a simple mistake.) He didn't say from where he found out that the music was supposedly based on Raff's symphony.

It's still hearsay, even if from two different people at different times, and I suppose that's not enough of a reference to mention it in the article. It's interesting, though, and it would be good if anyone could find a sufficient reference so it can be mentioned in the article. M.J.E. (talk) 15:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I've found the symphony on youtube - each movement is in a different clip, so I listened to no. 3. Around 2 minutes 40 seconds into that movement, the melody in question starts. But, for my ears, we are talking about a sequence of no more than 7 or 8 notes. That is still bordering on coincidence. I would find it very far-fetched to claim that this is the origin of the melody of the song's chorus, unless we find some believable quote from Theodore Morse were he acknowledges an influence.

Please, go to youtube and "have a listen" for yourself - I'm interested in your opinion, maybe I missed something. Otto von B (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The tune for the chorus, is identical to part of the first movement of Paganini's first violin concerto. I first heard the Paganini a few months ago and instantly thought of "Two little Boys". It's not just similar, it's the same. As Paganini died 30 years before Raff's 5th symphony, I would suggest Paganini has priority. But I've just been listening to the Raff as well. It is very similar, I would call it "variations on a theme of Paganini." But one of those pieces is likely to have influenced the composer of "Two Little Boys". TM— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2407:7000:8305:4600:F0:F945:2DC8:D6B2 (talk) 01:33, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher / Desert Island Discs

The article says Thatcher chose Harris's version on Desert Island Discs. But a video clip on this BBC page says Thatcher was appearing on BBC Radio Blackburn. (That's despite the text of the page alluding to Desert Island Discs with "... other politicians' desert island picks"). Was Desert Island Discs produced in Blackburn? I am adding "citation needed". Open4D (talk) 16:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another take on this.

I was told by my father around the time of the original Rolf Harris release that this song actually referred to John Grant Malcolmson. The story of how he won his VC in 1857 does bear a striking resemblance to the song. John Malcolmson's head-dress, sword and sword belt were in Jack Malcolmson's office which then became my father's (Graham F. Bond) office when he took over as MD of Sarsons Vinegar. I remember seeing them there as a young boy. They are now in the Imperial War museum in London. Perhaps the connection with the song was wishful thinking but he certainly believed it. To further confuse this, there are numerous John and James (abbr to Jack) Malcolmsons in the Malcolmson family tree though arriving at Jack and Joe from this is perhaps a stretch. And the uniform of the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry seems to have been predominantly blue. (card 15 here) jbond (talk) 17:09, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Civil War?

According to www.civilwarpoetry.org : "... Whatever else can or can't be said about the song, it's fairly safe to assume that it did not originate during and was not written about the War Between the States." This is a site dedicated to poetry & music from & about this war - they don't think 'Two Little Boys' qualifies. Gwladys24 (talk) 20:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The song is clearly NOT about the US civil war. It makes no reference to the US war, and it is set in the future. Some people have suggested that the two boys are fighting on different sides, but the words do not suggest that at all. Unless someone can demonstrate a good case for the US civil war setting, I propose deleting that mistaken reference from the introduction.203.184.41.226 (talk) 08:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This song is DEFINITELY about the Civil War. First off, it was written by two Americans in 1902. Additionally, the lyrics as sung by Beryl Middleton have the line "to the lad in gray" instead of "to where Joe lay", which is the evidence that gives credence to others' claims it's about them fighting on opposite sides of the war. My mother had the record growing up by Beryl Middleton. And it's not only her -- this person who claims to work at the publish company that produced that version also states the lyrics were "lad in gray", and that Lauder changed the lyrics since the UK audience wouldn't understand the Blue/Gray references. Think about it, why was "ranks of blue" in the song anyway? What other war famously refers to one side as "blue"? https://www.songfacts.com/facts/rolf-harris/two-little-boys ... And finally, BBC agrees with the conclusion that it was likely about the Civil War: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7724596.stm—Preceding unsigned comment added by Radolumbo (talk • contribs) 05:49, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture

In Trainspotting (1996), the character Spud, played by Ewen Bremner, sings Two Little Boys at Tommy's funeral. 50.242.146.241 (talk) 07:51, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Harry Lauder?

It is often repeated that Harry Lauder performed "Two Little Boys", but in researching the song for my own purposes I haven't found any reference that definitely links him to the song.

I don't mean a recent, passing mention (as in the first paragraph of this article) but something from, say, the early 1900s, or even from the following years of his performing career. I am not a world expert on Harry Lauder, but I have searched thoroughly without success.

I'm guessing that someone here can point to a discography listing, or an early review, news story or advertisement, or sheet music, or a label shot.. or something.

It's possible that he performed it but never recorded it, which makes it harder (Brian Rust's Complete entertainment discography, from the mid-1890s to 1942, for example, doesn't list it), but the only mentions of Lauder and "Two Little Boys" together that I've found are in latter-day, unsourced contexts. It's not usually so hard to connect a song to a performer, especially if the performer is so well known.

For example, I can find no mention of "Two Little Boys" in the large collection of images of sheet music, song books and theatre programs at sirharrylauder.com. A site search shows that it isn't mentioned at this comprehensive website (in the words of Google : No results found for site:sirharrylauder.com "two little boys").

I have researched the song for a page at my own website, but I would love to be able to add a reference in the text here. Lyn50 (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Added "citation needed" tag after sentence mentioning Harry Lauder. Lyn50 (talk) 12:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed mention of Harry Lauder Lyn50 (talk) 02:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 09:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two Little Boys → Two Little Boys (Rolf Harris song) – WP:NOPT. Jax 0677 (talk) 23:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 09:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination, paired with creation of a Two Little Boys disambiguation page that would list Two Little Boys (Jean Shepard song), Two Little Boys (Rolf Harris song) and Two Little Boys (film). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This song was first recorded by Billy Murray, so the disambiguation tag as proposed is contrary to WP:SONGDAB. 162 etc. (talk) 00:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply - I have no objection to moving Two Little Boys to Two Little Boys (Billy Murray song) nor Two Little Boys (1903 song). --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Not necessarily opposed to that, but your nomination presents no evidence as to why a B-side that appeared on no charts has more notability than a song that was a UK #1 and Australian top-10. 162 etc. (talk) 01:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If consensus were to prefer Two Little Boys → Two Little Boys (Billy Murray song), I would revise my support vote to that alternative option. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This isn't exclusively a Rolf Harris song, although it probably is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC because of the massive success that his version had.LM2000 (talk) 09:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.