Talk:Tung Hu Ling

Requested move 19 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) SilverLocust (talk) 20:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

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Tung Hu Ling → Dong Huling – Jōkepedia suggested that this page be moved to keep consistency with Dong Yingjie, which was recently moved. After some research it's unclear to me which version of the name is preferred. Many older tai chi works simply use Wade-Giles throughout. Few recent works mention Dong, and those that do are mixed in which romanization of his name they use ([1], [2]). Looking through a google search is even less helpful, because the online tai chi community doesn't seem to follow any of the generally accepted conventions for Wade-Giles or pinyin.

In the face of this confusion, I agree with Jokepedia that this page should be moved to the pinyin form. WP:NCZH says to use pinyin unless a clear majority of secondary sources use a different romanization. SilverStar54 (talk) 02:10, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Older works give his name in Wade-Giles, but often with nonstandard spacing, while newer works seem to be trending towards Hanyu Pinyin. (The second book you linked to is a collection of works by the publisher of the now-defunct T'ai Chi magazine. That article was published in 1988, and I cited it on the Dong Yingjie page.)

After this page is moved, based on my previous research I will convert it to Pinyin while preserving mention of historic versions of his name as well as the legal names of descendants using the "Tung" spelling. About half his descendants teaching outside of China today use "Tung" and the other half "Dong". Jōkepedia (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 25 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 17:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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Dong Huling → Tung Hu Ling – The editors involved in the move from Tung Hu Ling to Dong Huling one year ago now agree the move should be undone. The subject of this article used the name Tung Hu Ling in his personal life, and based on reliable sources was known to the general public under that name as well, in the United States and around the world. Tung Hu Ling is a redirect page so an administrator's assistance is requested to complete this return move, and additional comments are invited. This was our discussion:

...this [move from Tung Hu Ling to Dong Huling] has become controversial because this person lived quite a long time in the United States under the name Tung Hu Ling, and that is the name on his headstone in Honolulu as you can see in this photo. His son Tung Kai Ying moved to the USA with him; he and his descendants also spell their surname Tung. Would you support undoing the move, and if so do you have a preference as to how we initiate it? Jōkepedia (talk) 04:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm... this is quite an interesting case. I actually ran into a similar situation recently with Zhang Xueliang. The main difference is that in that case, there was a large number of recent sources that could be consulted, whereas few reliable sources seem to mention Dong. I think we should be cautious about deferring to the name someone used in the personal life, since that might not be the name they're known by to the general public. But in this case, given the lack of recent reliable sources, I don't have a strong opinion either way. SilverStar54 (talk) 04:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. During his life he was known to the general public as Tung Hu Ling through articles in the reliable sources Black Belt magazine and T'ai Chi magazine from the 1960s through the early 1990s, and taught classes and workshops in Los Angeles, Hawaii, and around the world under that name. As you say, given the lack of more recent reliable sources that is all we have to go on, and as we are the only editors ever to discuss this, it seems non-controversial to revert to that name while noting the Hanyu Pinyin spelling where appropriate. Jōkepedia (talk) 05:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that's fair, although you should copy this conversation to the article's talk page for others' reference. SilverStar54 (talk) 05:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion copied as advised. I volunteer to edit the article and incoming wikilinks after the return move is completed. Jōkepedia (talk) 17:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

— Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisted by Bensci54 without comment. The only comments thus far support this move, and those comments are from the only editors involved in the previous move which we now propose to undo. Any other comments?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jōkepedia (talk • contribs)

• To me it looks like you are the only one supporting it? The only other commenter noted they "don't have a strong opinion either way". While I realize that there is no minimum participation for RMs, I think some additional discussion to confirm the community's consensus wouldn't be bad. Bensci54 (talk) 12:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I believe in a subsequent reply the support was a bit stronger, but perhaps @SilverStar54 will chime in here to clarify. Jōkepedia (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

OK, so what we're left with is: the same two editors who discussed the last move have now discussed undoing that move, and have expressed the same levels of support. The difference is this additional point: reliable sources confirm this person was known to the general public as Tung Hu Ling. Therefore it seems to me non-controversial to revert to that name. Jōkepedia (talk) 05:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.