Talk:Tropical Storm Zeta (2005)

Tropical Storm Zeta (2005) has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Tropical Storm Zeta (2005) is part of the Off-season Atlantic hurricanes series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 1, 2006	Good article nominee	Not listed
June 8, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
March 19, 2008	Good article reassessment	Kept
April 5, 2011	Good topic candidate	Promoted
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 30, 2010, December 30, 2012, and December 30, 2015.
Current status: Good article

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	The possible merging of this article has been discussed by editors of the WikiProject.

This article was nominated for merging with 2005 Atlantic hurricane season on 13 March 2020. The result of the discussion (permanent link) was not merged.

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number of storms

Tropical Storm Zeta also extended the record number of storms to form in the 2005 season to twenty-eight, seven more than the previous record held by the 1933 season - the 1933 season was revised from 21 to 20 storms (as given in the 1933 season entry) so that should be 8 more (altho some storms could have easily been missed in 1933). (Also note that one of the 28 storms was added in postseason analysis so, as stated earlier in the Zeta entry, there were only 27 storm names in 2005 altho there were 28 "named storms", which is probably worth a brief explanation. To further complicate things, that 28th storm was a subtropical storm, which weren't named until recently.) 96.88.198.77 (talk) 22:20, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done belatedly. Drdpw (talk) 20:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge 2020

No consensus for merge at the time, and article is actually reasonable length. --WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 15:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This wasn't proposed for a while, and while this was a notable-ish storm, here is why it should be merged

The article as a whole(not readable prose size), is short. 11,800 bytes.
It didn't affect land
GAs can be merged([1] [2])
Only notable thing was it extended into 2006.

This year's Zeta is far more notable and recordbreaking. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 00:14, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose rare from a meteorological perspective. It was a cross-year system in the Atlantic. Very rare. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 18:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Destroyeraa: yes, but the article is 11 kilobytes. Go and expand it if you want it to remain in Wikipedia. (and yes I am WesternAtlanticCentral when I'm lazy and don't feel like logging in). --67.85.37.186 (talk) 18:44, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - No damage nor deaths, though this is notable fir being a cross-year atl storm (2/500). ~ Destroyeraa🌀 20:24, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Destroyeraa: feel like expanding the article? If it’s so notable, why is the entire article only 11,800 bytes? 67.85.37.186 (talk) 21:19, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support @Destroyeraa: this was kinda like Tropical Depression One (2009) in terms of notability. Yes, it did last a year but caused no damage or deaths, and is no longer the only storm to be named Zeta. I like hurricanes 18:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's probably a stronger case for merging this than Epsilon though that isn't saying much. I see no upside to the merger really. YE ^Pacific ^Hurricane 22:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Yellow Evan: there is because, this is less then 12 kilobytes and it easily fits in. So we don’t have to do maintence on the article WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 22:33, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @WesternAtlanticCentral: Maintenance isn't much of a problem in WPTC. I expanded the MH a bit, since that is a little bare. It's now up to 13 kilobytes. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @WesternAtlanticCentral: What maintenance do you think is required? And why does the current season section need to be re-written? YE ^Pacific ^Hurricane 17:11, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Yellow Evan: I am refering to the fact that it needs crucial expansion. That’s the “maintence”. WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 17:12, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Does it? The article is 15 kb's as is which is respectable. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 17:17, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- - - - Yeap. It does. Unless it’s like 20 Kb, it needs to be merged. I will withdraw request if we can do that. WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 17:19, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Well as someone who has published dozens of articles between 10-20 kb's over now 12 years, I certainly don't agree that 20kb is a minimum threshold (I'd argue that's 12-15kb's maybe lower under certain cases). As of right now, the MH is 580 words. Generally season sections are between 200 and 300 words tops IIRC, so if you were to propose a merger, you'd have to cut down on MH. If you thought the MH was overly bloated (an argument I don't agree with BTW) and could easily be condensed in the season section, you could at least in theory have somewhat of a legit case for a merger (though I'd still argue it's not worth while). You are arguing instead that the article needs to be expanded rather than merged or the content should be moved to the season section, when if historical precedent is anything to go by, said content would not directly fit in the season section. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 18:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Ok. These are my final words on the manner. I am saying it needs to be merged because, the information can be condensed. If anyone wants to keep it, the article should be expanded. Really, I’m fine either one. It just can’t stay at this size. WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 18:38, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't see why it can't stay at this current size if simply that is your issue, unless you are arguing for a minimum size treshold for an article to be enforced project wide. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 18:41, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Very rare occurrence for a North Atlantic TC, and the article stands on its own pretty well. Not as notable as Hurricane Alice in December 1954 maybe, but it's notable enough to have its own article. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 23:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- @LightandDark2000: I'm not sure what notable is to you, the records could easily be put into the season article. I like hurricanes 00:01, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @I like hurricanes: What is notable is that this is a 1 in a 500 storm. It was a cross-year long-lived storm that is very very very rare. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Destroyeraa: I get that, but can't it just be put in the season article? It's not like it will bloat the season article or anything by just adding in some words about the records of Zeta.I like hurricanes 00:28, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment is anyone opposing interested in doing maintence on the article? --WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 23:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @WesternAtlanticCentral: As Wikipedians, we all should be willing. I added some more prose to the Met history. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Destroyeraa: it’s getting late for me. I definitely will say it has potential, but we all need to take responsibility in maintaining it. I will withdraw my request if we can get it to 25 KB. Thank you for expanding the article. I will thank you for your edit immediately. WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 01:46, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per reasons listed above. - It's a well-written article on a topic — that's had lasting coverage — and is a notable meteorological oddity (and, as mentioned above, merging it would bloat the already large 2005 Atlantic hurricane season article). Paintspot Infez (talk) 03:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly Oppose - This is a rare storm that crossed two years and it's well written Floridaball (talk) 03:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- It is rare meterologically, but so is Hurricane Epsilon (2020) or Hurricane Pablo(2019), and they don’t have articles. Also, its 13 kb. Not well written. WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 11:50, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A cross-year storm in the Atlantic is very rare, and the article itself is in an acceptable length. I see no reason to merge it. --218.250.155.169 (talk) 03:53, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose Gotta oppose this one, sure this storm was no threat to land and is a relatively short article, but at the same time, it is one of only a few rare storms that lasted into another year, which is pretty notable.🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 06:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. This is surely going to have no purpose, but THE ONLY THING NOTABLE ABOUT ZETA, IS THAT IT CROSSED YEARS. If you want an article on Zeta, then you'll want an article on Tropical Storm Wilfred. Or Tropical Storm Julio (2020). Or Tropical Depression Ten (2020). Or the 1432 Atlantic hurricane season. "The 1432 Atlantic hurricane season had no known storms." Zeta's about as notable as that. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 10:59, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Chicdat: I’m not so sure about that. None of these were cross-year storms. This record will go unbroken for at least another few years or more than a decade. It’s extremely rare to have a cross-year Storm in the NHEM. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Weatherman27: @Floridaball: @Paintspot: I know that it is very rare to have a cross-year storm, but how come we can't just put this in the article. Its not like we have any other reasons for this. Also, Floridaball, not sure if this is the right way to use this but WP:NAOECOALON I like hurricanes 12:27, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am more neutral in view, I am leaning towards keep, but I wouldn't necessarily mind if it were merged. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (chat with me!). 13:07, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Anyone in favor of keeping it should realize they have to expand the article, which I’ll try to do later. But I’m at a tennis court right now. WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 15:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And I understand that. I can't do it now either, I would but I am busy. As I said above though, I am only leaning towards keeping the article, I may change my mind. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (chat with me!). 16:20, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support - For a long time, I would have said that a storm like Tropical Storm Zeta was deserving of a Wikipedia article, and I still personally believe this is the case. However, truth be told, the reason that this has been so was not because of Zeta itself, but as another user acknowledged in a section above, the design of the Gregorian calendar. This information about Zeta's cross-year notability could easily be summarized in a single sentence in the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season article: (e.g. Zeta was one of two North Atlantic tropical cyclones (alongside Alice of December 1954) to last two calendar years).

Also, not accounting for this trivia, the meteorological history of Tropical Storm Zeta reads like a typical Atlantic tropical storm. I believe that this section can be condensed into three paragraphs: formation, persistence, and dissipation. Additionally, the only "impact" that Zeta had was disrupting a rowing race. No watches or warnings were issued, and no damages or deaths were reported. Like the Azores subtropical storm, Zeta's claim to fame is based on a single piece of meteorological trivia instead of any significant land effects or a meteorological anomaly that requires a comprehensive explanation.

To summarize, I personally believe that Zeta is notable for lasting two calendar years. However, this should not be a barrier to merging this article into the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season page. Hurricane Andrew (444) 06:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why is a merge proposal being closed 3 days after being opened? IIRC standard procces is a week. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 20:47, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Appears to be more of a withdraw. As someone who often withdraws something when the proposal goes wrong, I know what WAC is doing. SMB9 9thx my edits 22:35, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SMB99thx is correct. There is basically no reason for it to be open when it's known to fail. Slightly off topic, it's actually 8:22 PM but one day ago 8:22 PM would show up as 00:22 in UTC! This DST thing is gonna take some time to get used to. I cannot believe I created my account a day before. --WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 01:22, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@WesternAtlanticCentral: I know that you have already formally closed this discussion. However, I saw that this article was being proposed for merger into the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season. As I was hoping to express my opinion, I hope you do not mind reading one last comment.

Comment merged with above discussion(this is WAC). --170.24.150.111 (talk) 15:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion

Hi. Can we make the article 20 KB so we don't need to continue to merge it? --WesternAtlanticCentral (talk) 23:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]