Talk:Trentino

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Requested move 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was procedural close; previously moved but discussion never closed and still showing at WP:RM.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:37, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Province of Trento → Trentino – Most commonly used name for the province, according to WP:COMMONNAME. Mai-Sachme (talk) 20:43, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per WP:COMMONNAME, noclador (talk) 20:52, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. The Google Books results (Trentino: 68,800, Province of Trento: 2,590, see also the graphical representation) show an overwhelming preference for Trentino in English literature. Additionally, Trentino is an autonomous province which is rather comparable to Italian regions than provinces. So there is no need for consistency (Province of...), because Trentino is a quite different entity than Province of Prato, for example. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 20:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. I would also like to invite WP:COMMONNAME fans (and anybody else) to check out the similar move request at Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol#Requested move. Dohn joe (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per WP:COMMONNAME and Trentino is a de facto region with even more powers/autonomy than Lombardy or Tuscany.--Sajoch (talk) 08:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:Commonname. I hope that with South Tyrol, Trentino, Trentino-Alto Adige and Euroregion Tyrol – South Tyrol – Trentino we have found the most common names each and something for everybody, thereby bringing the year-long naming row to an end. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but I don't share Gun Powder Ma's hopes because I disagree with his arguments. I am persuaded that having this article with a title inconsistent to the general "Province of XXXXX" rule is OK because the provinces of Bolzano and Trento are de facto regions. For this reason I support this move, but I wouldn't support similar ones (such as a move of Province of Ogliastra to "Ogliastra" or Province of Medio Campidano to "Medio Campidano". --Checco (talk) 14:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Naming of the comuni

as per discussion at Talk:South Tyrol/Archive 4#Naming conventions (disambiguation) which also would affect the comuni of Trentino (in case the article is moved from Province of Trento to Trentino) there is a proposal to name the comuni, which are not uniquely named, as "comune name, Trentino". As of now there are four variants used for the comuni of Trentino:

If agreed upon the following comuni need to be moved:

noclador (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to prefer bracket disambiguation over the comma. But only slightly, and ‘Trentino’ is certainly to be preferred to ‘TN’ or ‘Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol’ as the disambiguator. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is agreed then. Gryffindor (talk) 22:35, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its mountains: should we re-phrase?

Currently we say ‘Trentino is renowned for its mountains, such as the Dolomites’. Very likely I betray my ignorance, but do we we recall mountains outside of the Dolomites for which it is renowned? Ian Spackman (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can't say I have a concise opinion about that, but the Ortler Alps (which are partly in Trentino) are the highest mountains of the Eastern Alps. But I wouldn't object to a wording that just highlights the Dolomites. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The rocks near Arco (north of Lake Garda) are known to be a freeclimber's paradise.--Sajoch (talk) 16:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move request regarding Municipalities of Trentino

A move request has been brought up here. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 19:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong map: Copying discussion from commons

Taken from Commons[1]:--Patavium (talk) 11:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This map is one of the rare cases, where exact data exists: the census data is from 2011. The colors on the map reflect accurately the percentages as per census. The census data is linked too: Servizio Statistica della Provincia Autonoma di Trento. Moreover the map (as per its name) shows the languages, not single dialects. Therefore Nones and Fassan are colored the same (blue), as in both valleys people declared "ladin" as their mother-language. On the other hand "Mocheno" and "Cimbrian" are both german dialects, and thus are filled with the same color (green).--Sajoch (talk) 01:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This map is original research by Sajoch and manipulation of the Census. http://www.statistica.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_statistica/demografia/15CensGenPopolazione.1340956277.pdf 15° Censimento della popolazione e delle abitazioni Rilevazione sulla consistenza e la dislocazione territoriale degli appartenenti alle popolazioni di lingua ladina, mòchena e cimbra = 15th census of population and housing Enquiry about the number and the location of those who belong to the population of Ladin, Mocheno and Cimbrian language. Not a word about German language.--Patavium (talk) 22:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Until there's no proof of the contrary, Mocheno and Cimbrian are germanic languages (see: en:Mòcheno language and en:Cimbrian language).--Sajoch (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

LOL! http://www.statistica.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_statistica/demografia/15CensGenPopolazione.1340956277.pdf 15° Censimento della popolazione e delle abitazioni Rilevazione sulla consistenza e la dislocazione territoriale degli appartenenti alle popolazioni di lingua ladina, mòchena e cimbra = 15th census of population and housing Enquiry about the number and the location of those who belong to the population of Ladin, Mocheno and Cimbrian language. If you have problems with Italian, we will find someone that helps you.--Patavium (talk) 22:45, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

End of text taken from Commons:[2]--Patavium (talk) 11:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mocheno and Cimbrian do appear in the map. What Sajoch did is using a similar colour for Mocheno and Cimbrian (which is linguistically justified) and subsuming them in the caption as German. By the way, you could read that in the autonomy statute itself: Nelle scuole dei comuni della provincia di Trento ove è parlato il ladino, il mocheno o il cimbro è garantito l'insegnamento della lingua e della cultura ladina o tedesca. I don't see any kind of problem with the map. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 07:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is correct that teaching in German is guaranteed. By the way, this passage was inserted in 2001. As Cimbrian and Mocheno could not be protected as German minorities as in South Tyrol, it was necessary to modify a statute to defend their minority status. The problem is still that the map does not correspond to the census. The solution would be extremely easy. Using different colors for Cimbrian and Mocheno, as the previous map correctly did.--Patavium (talk) 20:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please look again before complaining: the map already uses different hues of green for Mocheno and Cimbrian!--Sajoch (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Problem solved by truly respecting the census.--Patavium (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No! As per your own words, italian was not part of the census in province of Trentino, so your map is a falsification. Your definition, your "false" map! :-)--Sajoch (talk) 23:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's funny! Actually there is no Italian in the map. Are you able to see that? Or are we going to discuss at least another 100kb for extra explanation?

So do me a favour. Please try to be as precise as possible and respect the sources...--Patavium (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to this map: File:Language distribution in South Tyrol and Trentino.png, which you altered as well introducing some errors and ignoring the fact that I already used different colors for Mocheno and Cimbrian. Instead of "correcting" the maps, you make them worse!--Sajoch (talk) 18:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OT. In the map we discuss here there is no Italian. You want to have the discussion heading towards 100kb, do you? Correcting your mistakes is hard work enough. --Patavium (talk) 18:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Never-ending and cyclic discussions are your vocation. A simple look at your edit history speaks volumes. I'm done here.--Sajoch (talk) 19:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Funny. I was done with my statement Problem solved by truly respecting the census.. You reopened the discussion. Thank you for closing it after having reopened it. Map fixed, problem solved.--Patavium (talk) 20:42, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, this map is also badly wrong. I'll fix it another day.--Sajoch (talk) 21:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you were done here ;-)). As long as you take the numbers from the census I see no problem. Your previous map was a wrong interpretation of it.

Maybe you know some other mistakes (of yours) in the previous map. Hope I did not oversee them.--Patavium (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

German speakers?

Are there any German speakers here like in the next province further north? TCO (talk) 01:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

yep, there are. But very very few. Nowadays the only villages left are Lusérn and in Bersntol. noclador (talk) 01:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Was that part of the Italianization or just the way it always was? Like when Austria owned it, was it full of Italian speakers then? And if so, why didn't Wilson give the Italian part to Italy but keep the next province up in Austria? TCO (talk) 02:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P.s. I honestly don't know, not starting some ethnic thing. I'm American.

That's the way it always was. In todays Trentino there were almost no Germans even under Austrian rule. Wilson did not go by ethnicity or language, he agreed with Italy to go with the Main chain of the Alps, which split the County of Tyrol in half. Only near Toblach did they not adhere to that principle and went 10km farther west than the Drainage divide between the Adige and the Drava would have allowed. noclador (talk) 08:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

German names of places

I opened a discussion, if you want to follow, here is the link: [3]--Patavium (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Articles about municipalities

All articles about the municipalities are providing wrong information to users, see discussion here Talk:Municipalities_of_Trentino#Articles_about_municipalities.--Patavium (talk) 18:42, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Institutional font

Hi, I must reiterate the concept, the "Trentino" is, if anything, an historic designation of an area that is not exactly be corresponding to the current Italian territorial division, see please the institutional website. I ask you therefore to evaluate the amendments introduced by the German-speaking users not supported by sources (or POV sources), then do whatever you reward even if this goes against the indisputable main source, of course the (in italian, the only official language) Provincia Autonoma di Trento.--Threecharlie (talk) 10:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, first of all I reverted your edit, because it included a clear grammar mistake.

Then you seem to have different ideas about what the truly official name looks like. Your edit lead me to think that you regarded "province of Trento" as the one and only official name, now you seem to prefer "autonomous province of Trento".

Thirdly, your claim that "Trentino" and "province of Trento" are no synonyms in modern usage is clearly wrong... You might just have a look at the province's website and search the word "Trentino". I guess you will find more than enough.

Last but not least, I don't think that labels as "official" or "unofficial" in the first sentence add any value to the article. It could be discussed in extenso, if the name "Trentino" can really be described as "unofficial", since it is included in the region's name and used there as a synonym for the province of Trento. Whatever the outcome of such debates, I suspect that readers are more interested in other pieces of information. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Regional presidents in infoboxes

I started a discussion at Talk:List of political parties in Italy/Archive 1#Regional presidents in infoboxes on whether the two provincial presidents of Trentino ans South Tyrol should be equated to regional presidents, as it already happens in the Conference of Regions and Autonomous Provinces.
Please have a say! --Checco (talk) 06:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What language is "trentim"?

Ecolinguist recently published a video in which someone speaking a Romance language called "trentim", in which Italian is called "taliam", described some things to speakers of other Romance languages. He used the word "mister", which was a mystery to me as well as to the other Romance speakers in the video. Is this language Ladin, Lombard, or something else? phma (talk) 21:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]