Talk:Tredegar House

Is the house in Monmouthshire?

Should the article state this house is in Monmouthshire or not? It's in the historic county of Monmouthshire and in the preserved county of Gwent. But it is now in the unitary authority area of Newport. My personal view is that, for Wikipedia users, it's more helpful to keep it in Monmouthshire. As an example as to why, the house is the cover photo for Newman, John (2000). Gwent/Monmouthshire. The Buildings of Wales. Penguin. ISBN 0-14-071053-1. and I think keeping it in Monmouthshire will help users to find it. Nor do I think it is inaccurate. But I appreciate that alternative views exist, including those of the IP who removed the Monmouthshire reference. Hence this opener for discussion. KJP1 (talk) 18:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I think you are quite right. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:00, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I (obviously) disagree. Based on the above argument, I could see a claim for saying 'Tredegar House, Gwent', but certainly not Monmouthshire. Gwent is the preserved county, whereas Monmouthshire is now quite a distinct area. Moreover, Newport residents would not regard Tredegar House as being in Monmouthshire at all. In terms of 'finding' the article, I imagine if you type 'Tredegar House' into the search, whether we have put Newport, Monmouthshire or Gwent, it will be found easily. Finally, even if someone thought it was in Monmouthshire, well, Wikipedia can teach them that it isn't. 92.233.29.173 (talk) 09:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with KJP1 and Martinevans123 and disagree with you anonymous editor! Monmouthshire is clearly the preferable descriptive term. it doesn't really matter who empties the bins, or who the Lord Lieutenant is. When describing where a place is we should use well-known historic geographic terms. It is not Wikipedia's job to "teach people where places are", especially when it quite clearly is in the historic county of Monmouth, whether you like it or not. Owain (talk) 13:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Well on that basis shall I spend the afternoon busily renaming all places in Newport, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent etc as being in 'Monmouthshire'? I think not. Since Tredegar House also sits in the ancient kingdom of Gwent, shall we put that on the end also? It seems to me that this attitude of 'some book says it's in Monmouthshire and it used to be in Monmouthshire so we should keep it that way' is counter-intuitive. But, I imagine I am in the minority. 92.233.29.173 (talk) 15:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC) - and, just to add, this website http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/tredegar-house/ - would seem to agree.

A few points. Firstly, when you say, "some book says it's in Monmouthshire", the book in question is The Buildings of Wales, which is about as authoritative an architectural guide as you can get. Secondly, I'd be interested in your source when you state that "Newport residents would not regard Tredegar House as being in Monmouthshire at all." Has such a survey been undertaken? Thirdly, this [1] from the RCAHMW references Monmouthshire, although I fully accept it makes clear it's the old county. Lastly, I'm not sure why the tone of this discussion needs to be so acerbic. We're having a perfectly reasonable debate on the complex issue of the counties and unitary authorities of Wales and how best a building may be referenced in relation to those administrative units. Surely we can conduct such a discussion courteously? KJP1 (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

And I haven't done my survey either, but my personal experience suggests that most Newport residents still firmly believe their city is in Monmouthshire (having never believed that Gwent was a real county). That said, I see that the NT lists the house, in its 2012 Handbook, as being located in "Newport, Newport", not even "Newport, South Wales"! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for the acerbic tone. This debate is moot, as far as I am concerned. The house is in Newport. The house's website, which is as good an authority as any, says it is in Newport. 'Newport' itself styles itself as its own city, without ever reference to Monmouthshire. This is why I believe we should remove any reference to Monmouthshire. 92.233.29.173 (talk) 00:23, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, and sensible, solution from User:Benbristol. Everyone ok? KJP1 (talk) 22:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly. Very neat. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I suppose you might argue it is still a bit messy - too many mentions of both Newport and Monmouthshire for my liking. But a happy compromise, to be sure. Benbristol 23:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Ownership Tidy Up

Re the "ownership" paragraph:-

"... Families still using the titles of Lord or Lady, descending from the Morgan line, are said to be still living in Cardiff, in Gloucester/Cheltenham and in Dorset. Other descendants who have kept the Morgan name may be easier to track."

I suggest evidence is provided or referenced for such families or the para' deleted. I don't have sufficient knowledge myself to decide this either way.

SolarMcPanel (talk) 18:42, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Quite agree. Such claims need sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed; notwithstanding the possible existence of extant cadet lines from earlier generations of the family, they are clearly not sufficiently closely related to have inherited the titles nor do they own Tredegar House (this being under the 'Ownership' heading), and therefore no mention need be made of these alleged descendants. Clarification would be needed; did the contributor mean that there exist other Morgans, also titled, but unrelated to the Tredegar Morgans? Or people of the name Morgan, claiming relationship to the Tredegar Morgans, and on that basis claiming use of 'Lord' and 'Lady' (or even people of the name of Morgan who have purchased those 1-square-foot patches of land that come with 'Lordships'...)? Or families- based on the preceding sentence, which refers to changes of surname- not named Morgan, but claiming descent from them, and also either legitimately entitled to/ falsely claiming use of 'Lord' or 'Lady'? Additionally, it is stated that after the Tredegar Morgans left in 1951, the family has 'SINCE spread far and wide'; really? In the space of 61 years? It would make more sense if implying that cadet branches have, over the years, proliferated and therefore the family has 'spread far and wide'. All this notwithstanding, the vagueness of the statements is sufficient to justify their removal; the onus is on the original contributor to find support for/ elucidate his addition to the article. It's not clear what actual point is being made here... Ashiyura (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

You must mean Cadet branch. Quite agree it's not clear. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:00, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Lord, this needs some work

This could really do with an overhaul. It's one of the most important houses in Wales but it's poorly sourced, the language is sometimes unencyclopedic and, although there's a big chunk on the Morgans (completely unsourced), there's actually very little on the house. There is an interesting, but possibly too-detailed, section on the name (although the sourcing comprises a blog and a broken link) and one of those infuriating trivia sections that contains all sorts of unsourced junk. Anybody, with or without local knowledge, up for some spring cleaning? I'll happily write up the architecture if someone could source the Morgans, remove the unsourced junk. KJP1 (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I have to agree with you, KJP. A very good move. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:44, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree.

• I suggest that the page title be "Tredegar House and Park" rather than just "Tredegar House". It's about the whole estate (36 hectares). By the way, the page for the nearby Dyffryn House and Gardens is entitled "Dyffryn Gardens"; the opposite problem even though the grounds are slightly smaller (34 hectares)!
• I haven't been able to find out much about architect or builder of the Carolean building. Colvin, H (1982) An Architect for Tredegar House, Cambridge Uni Press is the only source I could find. The author suggests "the hand of an artisan rather than that of a gentleman architect". He suggests a name but I can't remember who it was, sorry.
• Perhaps the layout of infobox, headings, subheadings for both the Tredegar and Dyffryn pages could be made somewhat consistent?

--DoctorDaveF (talk) 12:08, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

National Trust pilot

Hello! During late June, July and some of August, I'm working on a paid project sponsored by the National Trust to review and enhance coverage of NT sites. You can find the pilot edits here, as well as a statement and contact details for the National Trust. I am leaving this message when I make a first edit to a page; please do get in touch if you have any concerns. Lajmmoore (talk) 16:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

New category

I added a new category as part of this pilot Lajmmoore (talk) 12:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Lajmmoore - Just a thought, but this might be a good page for your NT staff/volunteers to "try out" their editing skills. With all respect to its contributors, of which I'm the second highest!, this article really needs work. It's one of the most important houses in Wales but:

• There is hardly not a word on the building's architecture, outside of bits in the "Lead" and "History";
• The big "Morgan" section, which would actually be better in a history of the family, has a grand total of one citation, about the, short-lived, polo club;
• It has the usual "Media" section and, as usual, it's full of poorly-sourced trivia;
• The whole thing is miserably under-cited.

In short, it could really do with a complete overhaul. Hope the second pilot is progressing well. KJP1 (talk) 09:45, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Good idea! Thanks @KJP1, sort of along the same lines, I've put in a request for a National Trust stub category, again to pull together "practice places" for new editors Lajmmoore (talk) 10:01, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Sir Briggs

Sir Briggs

Memorial to Sir Briggs, Tredegar House gardens, Newport

In the Cedar Garden.

The inscription reads:

IN MEMORY OF

SIR BRIGGS

A FAVOURITE CHARGER; HE CARRIED HIS MASTER

THE HON GODFREY MORGAN, CAPTAIN 17TH LANCERS

BOLDLY AND WELL AT THE BATTLE OF ALMA,

IN THE FIRST LINE OF THE LIGHT CAVALRY CHARGE OF

BALACLAVA AND AT THE BATTLE OF INKERMAM, 1854.

HE DIED AT TREDEGAR PARK FEBRUARY 9TH 1874

AGED 28 YEARS. KJP1 (talk) 12:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Did they actually confer knighthoods on horses in those days?? That's even worse than the Tories! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:51, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Read the bloody article, Monument to Sir Briggs! All is explained on Wikipedia. KJP1 (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I think it might be time to drop the stick.... or else try your hand at DYK?? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:46, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I've tried DYK, and frankly I find the process so complicated, I think I'd rather take it through FAC. KJP1 (talk) 16:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Especially if it's dead. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2024 (UTC)