Talk:Torbanite

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Tertiary coals

I'm not sure Lee is right about the Tertiary coals, I think the first line of research involved Permian torbanites.

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--69.226.103.13 (talk) 10:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to fix it. I also formatted your reference above. When adding this reference to the article, please put <ref></ref> signs back.Beagel (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the formatting. --69.226.103.13 (talk) 14:42, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Meuzelaar, Henk L. C.; Windig, Willem; Futrell, Jean H.; Harper, Alice M.; Larter, Steve R. (1986). "Pyrolysis mass spectrometry and multivariate analysis of several key world oil shale kerogens and some recent alginites". In Aczel, Thomas (ed.). Mass spectrometric characterization of shale oils: a symposium. Philadelphia: ASTM International. pp. 81–105. ISBN 9780803104679. Retrieved 2009-07-06. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

Cannel coal

Forgive the ping png on cannel coals @TrimmerinWiki: - my lack of expertise in Wikipedia makes me a little clumsy (I wanted to put in an explanation but undo didn't allow - and then you keep disappearing as a user, which makes you look evasive. To me, Torbanite, boghead coals and cannel coals are all what we used to call alginites, although I concede that the terminology has moved on since I worked on Torbanite - what is the distinction today?Guy WF Loftus (talk) 05:28, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy WF Loftus: Hi, As I understand it, the difference between the cannel coal and Torbanite is (within Hutton's classification as one of 'terrestrial', 'lacustrine', or 'marine') that cannel coal is 'terrestrial' and is a borderline type of coal / oil shale that comes from terrestrial plant material including spores, waxes and resins from terrestrial ferns (see Cannel coal#Composition), whereas Torbanite is a 'lacurstrine' oil shale formed mainly from algae that lived in a lake (see Torbanite). So, under this view Torbanite equals boghead coal, but not cannel coal. Both are different to the marine oil shales, like Tasmanite. Of course, this could be complicated by what may have been called 'cannel coal' or 'Torbanite' in the past (not based on Hutton). It is definitely true that the terminology, in the past, was that cannel coal, boghead coal, and Torbanite were treated as 'the same thing'. This article (Oil shale geology#Classification and varieties) is helpful too, as it sets out in an overview how the Hutton classifications are made. TrimmerinWiki (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TrimmerinWiki: Thanks - I wonder though if Torbanite itself is the problem, given that (as a type example from Torbane Hill) there is none left and that no other pure lacustrine alginate can really call itself Torbanite. It then becomes an historical reference point rather than a term that can be applied within a classification scheme.Guy WF Loftus (talk) 05:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy WF Loftus:Hi, Yes, I understand the point that you are making. It would be good to have a specific reference that definitively states that the material since known as 'Torbanite' that was found at Torbane Hill in Scotland is indeed an oil shale that was originally laid down lacustrine deposits of Botryococcus or related algae. My understanding is that 'Torbanite' is not unique to Torbane Hill and that the deposits in other countries - now classified as Torbanite - are just similar lacustrine oil shales derived from deposits of Botryococcus or related algae. After all, any mineral, historically speaking, has to be found somewhere first, and some minerals are named after locations. Since the large scale shale oil industry began in Scotland, naming Torbanite after the deposit at Torbane Hill, is not surprising. However, if there is a specific reference, as as set out above, that would be helpful. TrimmerinWiki (talk) 00:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy WF Loftus:As an additional piece of information to the reply at 00:07 21 July, I came across a 1925 paper that already draws a distinction between cannel coal and boghead coal, which it equates with Torbanite (see page 124).[1] It also says that the discovery of oil shale in Australia predates that in Scotland (surprising but attributed in the paper) and that it was originally known as 'Kerosene shale', in Australia. As an Australian that has looked at the historical oil shale industry here, that actually rings true; there are lots of historical references (in Australia) that use the term 'kerosene shale', which the paper also says an equivalent of boghead coal. on page 122, "The term "boghead" was first applied to coal of this variety found on the Boghead estate, near Bathgate, Linlithgow, Scotland. At Torbane Hill, also near Bathgate, it was called torbanehill mineral and torbanite.". This is pretty close to the definitive reference I am looking for in the reply above. TrimmerinWiki (talk) 02:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TrimmerinWiki: Terrific paper - perhaps you should follow up with a paper yourself on "the use of terms for the purposes of classification" (sounds almost Victorian), except that now, that particular continuum has become a footnote in history (it has no commercial value or value to society anymore).Guy WF Loftus (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Meuzelaar, Henk L. C.; Windig, Willem; Futrell, Jean H.; Harper, Alice M.; Larter, Steve R. (1986). "Pyrolysis mass spectrometry and multivariate analysis of several key world oil shale kerogens and some recent alginites". In Aczel, Thomas (ed.). Mass spectrometric characterization of shale oils: a symposium. Philadelphia: ASTM International. pp. 81–105. ISBN 9780803104679. Retrieved 2009-07-06. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

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