Talk:Tobia Lionelli

This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool as Stub-class because it uses a stub template. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

Slovenia Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Slovenia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Slovenia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SloveniaWikipedia:WikiProject SloveniaTemplate:WikiProject SloveniaSlovenia articles

Start

This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Slovenia to-do list:

Here are some tasks you can do (watch):

Requests: , Protestant Reformation in the Slovene Lands (sl), Metlika black (sl)
Wikify: Russia–Slovenia relations
Unreferenced: Inner Carniola, Litostroj, Pavel Golia, Predjama Castle
Cleanup: Edvard Ravnikar, Škofja Loka, Inex-Adria Aviopromet Flight 1308
Expand: Education in Slovenia
Stubs: Ajdovi žganci, Čop Street, Radenska
NPOV: Gregorij Rožman, Siddharta (band)
Portal maintenance: Update News, Did you know, announcements, and suggest Selected article and picture
Help assess the quality of 35 unassessed articles
Take/Add requested photographs

Name

The subject of this article appears to have never actually used the name Janez Svetokriški (apparently simply copied from the Slovene WP article in 2009). Lionelli's monastic name Joannes Baptiſta à S. Cruce Vippacenſi (ablative Joanne ...) is clearly visible here and here. Judging from Google Books, the name Janez Svetokriški appears to be an artificially Slovenized neologism first used in 1891. It appears that he never "took the name Janez Svetokriški" (as the article stated). It appears that Slovenization efforts in the 1890s also experimented with using the more Slavic form Ivan in 1891 and 1893, before today's standard Slovenian form Janez was settled on. The Marko Juvan source here is an authoritative English source published by a prominent Slovene scholar and appears to be a sufficient basis along with 134 other hits to rename the article to Tobia Lionelli (without -j-). For other Slovenized names, compare the WP articles on Fritz Pregl (not titled under the Slovenized form Friderik Pregl), Johann Puch (not Janez Puh), Sigmund Zois (not Žiga Zois), etc. Doremo (talk) 13:07, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should it be spelled Ioannes or Joannes? Juvan and Snoj spell it Ioannes.[1] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 11:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would simply use the J (as it appears printed in the primary sources). There's one school of thought that claims that "real Latin" doesn't distinguish j and i (although they're happy to distinguish v and u), but this is an argument I prefer to avoid (people can get heated up about it). Doremo (talk) 12:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this is a difference between the Classical (ancient) Latin and the Vulgar (vernacular) Latin of later periods. In this case, v and j would be ok. I've decided to nonetheless correct the name to Ioannes, because this spelling is the most common in secondary sources (besides Snoj and Juvan, also e.g. Makarovič etc.)[2] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 12:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Slovenian practice does prefer i. Usage in what seem to be English texts dealing with Latin is less clear. Doremo (talk) 14:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the comparison is not specific for this preacher. At least Juvan is in English (and there is another source by Bernik in German using Ioannes). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 14:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Significance

I've removed the following sentence, which may be readded with an appropriate source: "His texts provide excellent insight in the linguistic situation of Slovene around the end of the 17th century, as well as the wider cultural position of Slovenes and the Slovene culture of the late Baroque period." In any case, this is not Late Baroque but High (zreli) Baroque in the territory of nowadays Slovenia. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]