Talk:Textile industry in Aachen

Close paraphrasing

RAJIVVASUDEV, I have found several sentences in the article which appear to be a WP:PARAPHRASE of Growth Deterrents of a Medieval Heritage: The Aachen-area Woolen Trades before 1790 by Herbert Kisch. Close paraphrasing is not allowed by the Wikipedia:Copyright violations policy. Please can you either put the material into your own words or remove it. There may also be further examples that I have not found.

• A same caveat applies to questions about the impact of the Thirty Years' War on Aachen's industrial downfall. Without a doubt, the burden of occupation fees and war tributes fell heavily on this town, throwing the city treasury into even greater disarray than previously. Also, the long war disrupted traditional trade routes and put the woolen trades, which have been Aachen's main industry, at risk of running out of raw materials. This made it even harder for this business to sell its fabrics, especially at the very important Leipzig fair. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch pp. 522–523

• Following the disintegration of the Middle Ages, the majority of Aachen's artisans and merchants appeared unwilling to adopt the technical and social advances that were sweeping western Europe. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 517

• Religious strife and the toxic influence of guilds were the primary causes of this industrial prostration. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 523

TSventon (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@TSventon Noted. You want me to rewrite these paragraphs even if they are already attributed to the source? RV (talk) 16:20, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@RAJIVVASUDEV yes, I think they need to be rewritten as the Wikipedia:Copyright violations policy says "Even inserting text copied with some changes can be a copyright violation if there is substantial linguistic similarity in creative language or sentence structure; this is known as close paraphrasing, which can also raise concerns about plagiarism. Such situations should be treated seriously, as copyright violations not only harm Wikipedia's redistributability, but also create legal issues." TSventon (talk) 16:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm afraid of losing something in translation/rewording but let me try if it is really necessary. Thanks RV (talk) 16:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@RAJIVVASUDEV I have used Earwig's copyvio tool here and found another example

• One of the reasons the craftsmen rebelled was because they didn't like how the oligarchs ran the city and the guilds. However, the real cause of this chronic discontent was the city's economic and social structure, which allowed the concentration of power and wealth and took away the craftsmen's rights both as guild members and as burgesses. After the revolt of the guilds in 1450, the local aristocrats agreed to the so-called Gaffelbrief, which was a kind of agreement between them and the guilds. According to the rules of that agreement, the city's guilds were to have representatives in the Council, which was the highest legislative body in Aachen at the time. Until then, membership in the Council had been passed down through families. But these changes didn't do much to make corporations better off. Old ways of doing things kept going, and the fact that the Gaffelbrief was later reaffirmed shows that most of the time it was just a dead letter. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 519 TSventon (talk) 16:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

It is obvious because the paragraphs belong to the said source, and inline citations are provided there. Anyhow let me give it a shot. Thanks RV (talk) 16:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@RAJIVVASUDEV I am not an expert on Wikipedia copyright policy, I just saw some odd phrases in the text, checked the references and then found that sentences in the article were closely paraphrased from the source. Anyway, Wikipedia articles should summarise their sources in the editor's own words rather than taking whole sentences from a source and then changing some of the words. I would recommend reading Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing to understand the problem and in particular WP:FIXCLOSEPARA for how to fix it by taking notes from the source, writing a draft and then reviewing whether any of the draft is too closely paraphrased. TSventon (talk) 17:08, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@TSventon Copyvio Detector score is well within the acceptable range. But I am redoing it as you suggested. Thanks RV (talk) 17:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@RAJIVVASUDEV, the copyuvio tool is a way to find copying, the score doesn't mean that a certain amount of copying is acceptable. It may not detect close paraphrasing as it isn't able to match strings of words if some of them have been replaced with words with a similar meaning. I have found some more paraphrased paragraphs, I struck through a couple of sentences that didn't match.

• According to Alphons Thun, the conventional framework of a society can limit growth but cannot halt it. In the 18th century, Aachen also couldn't resist any more to the force of secularization, which was changing the area around it so fast. The city had to deal with the forces that came from the way the world economy was changing. Understanding the demands of increasing markets, the leading clothiers of the city became the forerunners of progress. With the goal of improving, they quickly incorporated certain indigenous dyeing approaches and worked to improve shearing, finishing, and marketing procedures in general. These advances contributed to the weakening of the current guild system. Still, the wealthy clothiers didn't like the fact that there were still corporate barriers to free trade. So, they bought their way into the to make the guild structure fit their needs. Soon, they hired a lot of local craftsmen, thus demonstrating that they disregard the regulations that limit the number of journeymen to be hired by an individual master. In addition, the activity of these clothiers virtually eliminated the mediaeval distinction between the economies of town and county. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 532

• By that time, corruption and favoritism had turned the into a thing that slowed down progress because its rules were no longer doing what they were supposed to do. For example, the children of masters were brought into the guild without training or a test, the craftsmanship suffered as a result. These challenges were exacerbated by the inflexibility of the woolen trades toward the indigenous development of the putting-out system. This new industrial order was driven by the desire to make money and was run by hard-charging entrepreneurs. It had a lot of energy, which could be seen in how quickly it took hold in many areas of local manufacturing in the second half of the 17th century. This conflict with the forerunner of capitalist development presented the with a challenge at least as dramatic as the international pressures to which the city's woolen goods were subjected. The early capitalists avoided a direct assault on the corporate strongholds of the city. Instead, they used a traditional way to get around the guilds: they put some of their businesses in areas that weren't part of the city. The finishing trades were the first to go through this change. More and more, the clothiers started sending raw cloth to nearby towns to be dyed. A report from the time said that the colors were applied better and in a more "marketable form" there than in Aachen. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 523

• The religious strife that happened in most of Europe over the next 150 years made it harder for the city to adjust to the new economic forces. It is important to understand Aachen's beginnings as a Protestant city and how its society changed over time that the more important local clothiers and exporters were early converts to or supporters of the Reformation. After 1550, wealthy clothiers who had fled the terror of the Alba and Burgundy regimes gave a big boost to Calvinism, which was by far the most important Protestant sect in this city. The fact that these men were in town gave the new faith the tools it needed to build a strong organisation and a strong economic base. Even though the Protestants couldn't join the Wollenambacht at first, they eventually got the right to join the guild and then went on to get the privileges of a burgher's jus honorum. By 1582, the Council was run by a majority of Calvinists, who made up a third of the city's population at the time. The Catholic potentates of Europe were uniformly opposed to the Protestant administration. The most aggressive of these were the Spanish governors in the Netherlands, who immediately planned an assault on Aachen. The plan never came to fruition. But the Duke of Julich, who wanted to use the religious issue to get more power in the imperial city, put a blockade on goods coming from Aachen. This was a terrible blow to the city's exports, which were already having trouble in the world market. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 520

• Before 1400, societal problems occurred amid rising industries. After the middle of 15th century, the opposite was true. When the English, who had been selling raw wool, started manufacturing clothing for consumers worldwide, the woollen trades and Aachen's economy suffered. New English manufacturing grew quickly, as expected for a "late-comer". West-England cloth quickly surpassed both the quality and price of cloth made in Europe's oldest cities. Some accounts say that in the early 1600s, the Hansa, which had special rights to take advantage of this new trade, sent more than 150,000 bales of English woollen fabrics to German lands. is a close paraphrase of

[removed] Kisch p. 519 TSventon (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the long quotes from Kisch's article now the close paraphrasing has been dealt with. TSventon (talk) 23:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Daily life in the age of Charlemagne

RV, you will see that TSventon has challenged your reference for the time of Charlemagne, viz.

• Butt, John J. (2002). Daily life in the age of Charlemagne. Internet Archive. Westport, Conn. : Greenwood Press. pp. 70, 71, 27, 28. ISBN 978-0-313-31668-5.

I have also checked this. There are many mentions of Aachen in the book, but none appear to be in connection with cloth-making. Pages 86 and 87 are about cloth in Charlemagne’s domains, but do not mention Aachen (or Aix). Could you please quote for us the passage you are relying on? Moonraker (talk) 06:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi! Yes, I agree with TSventon that a specific mention of Aachen is missing. The present content with [this edit] was revised as per comments. And the same is also mentioned in my today's edit on the template. "It is believed that the tradition of cloth manufacturing in Aachen dates back to the reign of Charlemagne." is cited with source no. 4, as per source "Its cloth manufacture boasted a tradition that supposedly reached back as far as the days of Charlemagne". Thanks RV (talk)

Thanks, RV, then you had better change “It is believed that” into “It is supposed that”, which is much less certain. And if you agree that Daily life in the age of Charlemagne says nothing relevant, you should delete it as a source relied on. Moonraker (talk) 08:06, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Moonraker Done. Thanks RV (talk) 01:44, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Textile Finishing

This is another of your citations, RV:

Prof. Dr. rer. nat., Hans-Karl Rouette. Encyclopedia Of Textile Finishing. p. 1.

There is nothing on page 1. Can you give us the correct page, please. Moonraker (talk) 06:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Moonraker, Encyclopedia Of Textile Finishing |pages=1 of the source text "Aachen fine cloth Descriptive term of origin generally applied to high quality cloth and fabrics of pure wool. The worldwide reputation of Aachen quali¬ ty lies behind these original fabrics, produced in plain weave constructions from fine carded yarns based on very fine merino wools and finished with a fine closely napped surface. Such high quality fabrics were found¬ ed, above all, on Aachen’s thousand year old tradition as a cloth city. Since the turn of the century, however, Aachen has concentrated less on the production of carded wool fabrics and more on the manufacture of high quality worsted cloths, both piece-dyed and as fine worsted novelties." Thanks RV (talk) 06:42, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I already deleted that page 1 ref, along with the content it didn't support, in this diff. - Roxy the dog 06:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, Roxy the dog, but it’s still in the lead. Let’s see if RV can find a page in that which is relevant. Moonraker (talk) 08:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I've given up telling him that the lead doesn't need refs if the body supports. - Roxy the dog 08:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Roxy the dog, I think page 1 is correct as the page numbers are at the bottom of the pages. It is page 6 of the digitised version. The reference mentions "Aachen’s thousand year old tradition as a cloth city", which could support hook Alt0. TSventon (talk) 12:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so here is a citation that works for that page. I’ll add it. Moonraker (talk) 02:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

• "Aachen fine cloth" definition, in Rouette, Hans-Karl, Encyclopedia of Textile Finishing, Elsevier, 1 June 2001, p. 1