Talk:Teachers College, Columbia University/Archive 1

Archive 1

Name(s) of Teachers College

"Teachers College" is the name most frequently used on the Teachers College website, http://www.tc.columbia.edu/ The top of the page reads

TEACHERS COLLEGE COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY

It makes frequent references to "TC" (not "TCCU"). The copyright notice at the bottom of the page, where you'd think they'd be punctilious for legal reasons, reads

Copyright ©2004 Teachers College

not "Copyright ©2004 Teachers College, Columbia University"

The About TC page opens "Introducing Teachers College;" the Letter from the President refers to the institution simply as "Teachers College" seven times, and in contexts such as "The most valuable possession we have at Teachers College is our name."

The letter finally does close "Arthur E. Levine, President, Teachers College, Columbia University," but I perceive that as being like saying "Paris, France" or "Boston, Massachusetts."

In an online search of The New York Times and the first reference I could find, March 19, 1893, p. 11 is headlined "Gift to Teachers' College — A Mechanic Arts Building To Be Erected at a Cost of $200,000 — The Board of Trustees of the Teachers' College announced that a lady whose identity is kept secret has offered to erect a building... "

An article March 21, 1893 p . 8, "TEACHERS' COLLEGE EXHIBIT." opens "One of the interesting and instructed exhibits at the World's Fair, and one of which New-York may well be proud, will be the display made by the Teachers' College of 9 University Place... The alliance with Columbia College, which the Teachers' College has recently entered into, will prove valuable in many ways to all concerned."

Searching for recent entries, I find: (December 30, 2005) "MILLER--Shirley (nee Buchsbaum)...graduated from New College of Teachers College, Columbia University; (December 14, 2005) "Arthur E. Levine, president of Teachers College at Columbia University;" (November 23, 2005) "GRINELL--Martha M.... was a graduate of Lehman College and received her Master's in education from Columbia Teachers College."

The most recent story about the institution seems to be one published on October 6, 2002 length: "NEIGHBORHOOD REPORT: MORNINGSIDE HEIGHTS - A Dispute With Teachers College Adds a Twist to Town-Gown Tensions." It opens

The traditional town-gown friction pitting Morningside Heights residents against Columbia University has turned upside down, with neighbors praising the university and developers criticizing it. The sore point concerns Teachers College, which is affiliated with the university but separate from it. Teachers College plans to break ground next month for a 19-story dormitory on an empty site that occupies part of the block bounded by Broadway, Amsterdam Avenue and 121st and 122nd Streets.

At this point, it really seems to me that the "Columbia University" part is merely descriptive. The historical name of the institution was "Teachers' College," and the "Columbia" is just tacked on any old way when, as, and if needed. Dpbsmith (talk) 03:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The name "Teachers College, Columbia University" reflects TC's status as a member of the Columbia University system as opposed to being a wholly separate institution. It is like "Balliol College, Oxford", "King's College, Cambridge" or "Imperial College, London". Each of those institutions is a separate legal entity like TC but also part of the larger university around them. Such a structure is common among British universities but rare in America; Columbia's relationships with Barnard College and TC are the ones most directly analogous in the U.S., though the relationship between the Claremont Colleges in California is similar in many ways.

Internal TC communications refer to "Teachers College" or "TC" without adding the university's name because everyone there knows of the Columbia connection. Just as family members refer to one another by first name only without adding the last name, members of the TC community know which teachers' college one another is talking about. Internal communications of Columbia's schools of engineering, law, etc. also seldom use the full university name, and for the same reason; this does not suggest, however, that they are separate institutions or that the use of the Columbia name is meaningless.

The articles, etc. which you cite don't prove much, since just as many others refer to the institution as "Teachers College, Columbia University". The 1893 article you cite is even less informative, since TC only became a Columbia affiliate in 1898.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.232.126.90 (talk) 01:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Note that there is a separate article titled "Normal school" to which one gets redirected upon entering "teachers college."

Arthur Levine said at many welcoming ceremonies to incoming TC students that he asked Columbia University's president why Columbia wished to maintain the affiliation with TC--to which the reply was that in some parts of the world, Teachers College is better known than Columbia University. Levine used this anecdote to illustrate why Teachers College stuck to its unremarkable name.

I agree that the appending of Columbia University is adjectival and added only when needed. Among Ivy League universities, Columbia's affiliation with TC (which has consistently stayed near the top of the U.S. News rankings for graduate schools of education) has been a distinguishing feature, but Columbia University is generally more widely recognized as a premier institution. Hence, "Columbia University" is used as needed to specify Teachers College from other teachers colleges, i.e., schools of education. It will be interesting if I ever hear anyone specifying Columbia University as "the one that's affiliated with Teachers College"--as opposed to, say, a university in Colómbia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Metonyme (talk • contribs) 17:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Both this article and the one on Columbia University indicate that Teachers' College is much more connected to Columbia than it actually is. It is NOT like Balliol College, Oxford, which is a constituent part of the University of Oxford. The only connection between TC and Columbia is that Columbia grants TC degrees and allows the use of its facilities, like libraries. TC is simply a separate institution with its own administration, degree standards, curriculum, etc. It is probably the case that Columbia does not have a school of education because TC is so nearby and well-regarded, but nonetheless, TC is NOT a part of Columbia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.213.205.178 (talk) 16:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

What are you smoking? Teacher College is part of Columbia University wherever you like it or not. You might wish it was not. Nevertheless the fact remains that Teachers College is an intricate part of Columbia University; Its like saying Harvard Business School is not a part of Harvard University. Dude…wake up and smell reality. -V 01/08/2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.70.117.86 (talk) 18:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

TC is no more part of Columbia than Barnard, Union Theological Seminary or the Jewish Theological Seminary. All four are listed on www.Columbia.edu as affiliated schools. EF (JTS-64)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.150.188 (talk) 01:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

TC is legally a separate entity, but it grants Columbia degrees and its faculty is officially the university's faculty of education. It thus fits neither the paradigm of a university division nor that of a stand-alone graduate school.

The comparison to Harvard Business School is not apt, since HBS is legally part of Harvard whereas TC is legally separate from Columbia. The comparison to Balliol, Oxford is more apt but still not precise; each Oxford college is a legally separate entity, whereas most of Columbia's schools and colleges are part of Columbia.

Structurally, TC's relationship to Columbia is very much like Barnard's. The Columbia-Barnard relationship is more apparent because CU and BC students take the same classes and their faculty teach the same subjects, so there is more opportunity to interact. "TC students and faculty are the only ones at Columbia dedicated to the field of education, so there is less overlap."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.232.225.201 (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

""TC students and faculty are the only ones at Columbia dedicated to the field of education, so there is less overlap." This statement presumes to know the degree to which TC students overlap with classes at other schools -- how the conclusion that there is little overlap was come to, I don't know, but the fact is there is tremendous overlaps with Arts and Sciences, SIPA. I know of TC students that take classes at Social Work, Law School, School of Public Health, and the Business school as well. Indeed, there is far more overlap between TC and the rest of CU than there is between Barnard and CU, just given Barnard's status as an undergraduate institution w/ little graduate level overlap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.142.6 (talk) 18:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

All TC Graduates are Alumni of Columbia University http://c250.columbia.edu/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/thomas_kean.html , which means that TC is a part of Columbia University.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.190.60.194 (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"TC is no more part of Columbia than Barnard, UTS, or JTS." While it is true that all four schools are listed as affiliates, only one of those schools functions as an department of the university, serving as the department of education. UTS and JTS are seminaries, whereas barnard is an undergraduate school, of which Columbia already has three.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.142.6 (talk) 18:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

"indicate that Teachers' College is much more connected to Columbia than it actually is" ???

I'm not sure what personal grievances some people have, but let me spell-out some simple examples for some simple-minded arm-chair critics: TC students share the same libraries, share the same campus health care, use the same e-mail system, workout in the same antiquated gym, and receive the same CU degree as CU students. And the referenced "19-story dormitory"? Some non-TC CU students live there as well. The term "affiliation" refers to budget matters/financial independence. Spare your trivial objections for a page that needs editing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.69.77 (talk) 08:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

TC is an official faculty of Columbia University, as stated very very clearly in the Columbia University handbook, so how you define "constituent" is irrelevant-- and that faculty (TC) is Columbia's Department of Education. TC has access to the same classes and resources. Read the Columbia handbook.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.142.6 (talk) 18:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

---

[Comment: Some of the commentators above raise valid points, but their tone seems unnecessarily dismissive. For example, “simple-minded arm-chair critics”; “trivial objections”; “What are you smoking?” and “Wake up and smell reality” could be rephrased less pejoratively.]

I am a graduate of Teachers College and of Columbia University’s Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. TC certainly FEELS different from the rest of Columbia University. As TC students and graduates, we take pride in the administrative and financial independence of TC from Columbia generally, while we also benefit from the generally greater worldwide name recognition of Columbia University. TC occupies the block between West 120th and 121st Streets and between Broadway and Amsterdam Ave, and its buildings and look-and-feel are distinct from those on the main campus (114th–120th St.) — although there are of course similarities too.

TC is more independent from CU than the Steinhardt School of Education is from NYU. The expression “teachers college” can be a generic designation, but it only refers to one institution in New York City; “Graduate School of Arts and Sciences” seems even more generic and can be applied (with modification) to any school within or beyond the city.

I think, though, alumni of GSAS and other graduate divisions of CU will agree that TC is perceived as having less academically rigorous programs than many on the main campus. This is a perception that happens to coincide with the programs I was in (Applied Linguistics at TC; Middle East, South Asian, and African Studies in GSAS). The programs at TC understandably cater to the schedules of many students who may be concurrently employed as teachers, rather than focusing exclusively on graduate studies. Consequently most of the classes are scheduled in the evenings, and the coursework may not seem as intellectually challenging as expected to students who enter straight out of college.

08:44, 9 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metonyme (talk • contribs)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tcollege.jpg

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Teachers College, Columbia University is a part of Columbia University

As if the institution's name was not enough. I hope this helps resolve this debate "Two affiliated institutions – Barnard College and Teachers College – are also Faculties of the University" [1]--Viscountrapier (talk) 23:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Redirect adjusted, hatnote added

I adjusted Teachers College to redirect to this article, and inserted a hatnote so people looking for generic teachers colleges will go to the right place. (Teachers' College still redirects to Normal school.) Ylee (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Westheimer

Looks like vandalism. That whole section needs sources, people. The Dissident Aggressor 01:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

You're talking about her being added to faculty? That happened here, where Ruth Westheimer was one of two additions, the first, corrected to Bonanno in the next edit, seems legitimate. Perhaps the editor was confused, rather than vandalistic. As far as needing sources, I assume the the linked pages will suffice to give bona fides as to the association with Teacher's College. Westheimer has been listed amongst alumni since 2007, at least. Dhtwiki (talk) 03:59, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, great - It looked like a prank (me being a skeptic). As far as the sources, this is a common misconception. Per WP:NLIST, "every entry in any such list requires a reliable source attesting to the fact that the named person is a member of the listed group." So, no the linked pages do not suffice. The Dissident Aggressor 18:02, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:NLIST doesn't say that the source has to be found on this page (very few lists that I've seen are well sourced directly). All the names on the faculty list have their own articles, and thus are notable. Whether their association with the college is documented there is another matter. If it's not and can be, then that source should be added to their main article page. If it can't be then the name probably should be struck here. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

NLIST sez Every entry must have a reliable source attesting to the fact that the person is a member of the list. It can't be clearer than that. Their articles may or may not attest to that membership - that's why that statement is in NLIST. The WP:BURDEN is on the person that adds information to any article to support it. BURDEN goes on to say any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. This is a fundamental tenet of WP:V.

I agree that there is a lot of unsourced stuff throughout the project but the fact that Wikipedia is filled with crap is not relevant. The Dissident Aggressor 02:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, but I think that the source you found, if it isn't already at Westheimer's page (assuming that's not where you found it) should be there, as well as here, or you're going to have a very fragmented encyclopedia, with tidbits scattered throughout. And unsourced information isn't automatically "crap" as has just been shown. Where you though vandalism, and I thought confusion, it turned out that the addition of Westheimer to the faculty list was appropriate. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Relationship with Columbia University

These edit keeps getting reverted due needing stronger citations. Many of these citations are already linked to the faculty senate documents, university handbook, and official university and/or constituent college websites to Columbia. Please feel free to add in further supporting evidence so that this does not get rejected again. We believe that it is important to add these details to clarify any incoming students about complex relationship between Teachers College and Columbia. Having accurate and clear internet resources for these students is very important. As suggested by another wiki administrator, small bits of this edit will be added at a time to the end of the "Relationship with Columbia University" section.

Although Teachers College serves as Columbia University's graduate and professional school of education by virtue of its designation as the University's Faculty of Education, the College holds its own corporate status separate from Columbia University, including an independent administrative structure, board of trustees and endowment. In practice, Teachers College shares many institutional resources with Columbia University, including the libraries, health service systems and the University's recreational center. The Columbia University Senate includes faculty and student representatives from Teachers College who serve two-year terms; all senators are accorded full voting privileges regarding matters impacting the entire University.

Degrees conferred to students are conferred by the Board of Trustees from both Teachers College and Columbia. The Columbia University degree is the only degree given to all Teachers College students (Teachers College does not grant its own degrees independently). Ultimately, the degree is conferred by the Columbia University president at the University commencement.

Teachers College graduates are given the rights to attend the Columbia Alumni Association events and are eligible for nomination of the alumni medal. In short, Teachers College graduates are considered alumni of Columbia University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebblefire (talk • contribs) 01:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Can someone explain why TC is not on here? http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/opir_degrees_awarded_1.htm --Boldstandard (talk) 03:13, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Teachers College

Teachers College is clearly an affiliate school both confirmed on Columbia University and Teachers College websites. If you go to Columbia.edu and scroll to the bottom, you will see TC being designated as an affiliate school. "The relationship between anthropology and education, too, formally took root at Teachers College, dating back to the College’s affiliation with Columbia University in 1898". Furthermore, when we refer to GSAS or CC or SEAS or GS or Law or SIPA or Medicine or Mailman or Social Work, we DO NOT call these schools as affiliate schools. A table of Degree and Certificates Awarded prepared by the Office of Planning and Institutional Research DOES NOT list TC degrees . It is very sad that we have a desperate editor trying to hide this important fact and his only reasoning for deleting TC's correct designation as an affiliate school is because it is redundant. We are better than this and our readers deserve to know the truth. Therefore, I request a consensus to clarify this issue once and for all and resuscitate TC's correct designation as an affiliate school of Columbia.--Boldstandard (talk) 00:18, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

References

You realize "affiliate" means "member" not "non-member" right? CUfiveo (talk) 09:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Surprised to see another user from 2 years ago making the exact same arguments as mine. Anyway, the relationship with Columbia University section is just insecurity on display and is a disservice for Teachers College students. I will not edit it myself for now but something to consider.--HamiltonProject (talk) 06:42, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Someone mistakenly removed the sentence, "TC graduates are Columbia University alumni," from the page Relationship with Columbia University. As a Columbia grad and former TC Admissions employee, I have researched this and have been assured that TC grads are indeed Columbia alumni. This deleted sentence should be restored. Brewsterm1 (talk) 21:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

TC grads receive Columbia degrees and can join Columbia alumni association clubs. TC does not award degrees. Brewsterm1 (talk) 21:49, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

If you can show me the exact sources that you have researched, it might be helpful in actually restoring it. --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:39, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Alumni list

The current list of alumni is too large as of now. I propose to move the list to a new page (e.g. University name list of people; see List of Stanford University people). The list in this article could be trimmed to only keep highly notable alumni. Any thoughts? GreaterPonce665 ^(TALK) 16:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

A new article for Teachers College alumni can be created but it should not be mixed with Columbia University alumni (as an affiliate institution). --HamiltonProject (talk) 06:42, 5 June 2020 (UTC)