User talk:HamiltonProject

Affiliates

"Affiliates"

Non-encyclopedic and confusing edit. Who cares what it says on the bottom of a website? What is the point of redundantly putting "affiliate" here when Columbia University is in the name? Also ALL TC graduates get Columbia Univesity diplomas not just the Ph.D. graduates... CUfiveo (talk) 15:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

My edits show that Ph.D., Ed.D. and Master of Philosophy candidates at Teachers College do have their degrees conferred through Graduate School of Arts & Sciences. I just followed whatever is on Columbia Alumni Association's website. All I care is the facts and what is listed on the official sources. Multiple users are saying that you might have a conflict of interest on this topic on your page. I would like to know what your affiliation to Teachers College is. --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I have zero affiliation to Columbia University...your sources ar weak, try using the official charters and statutes: https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June2017.pdf CUfiveo (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you but all of my sources are directly from Columbia's website and Barnard College and Teachers College are listed as affiliates on the Provost's website. See https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Columbia%20Facts/Facts_2019.pdf --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you claiming you have zero affiliation to Columbia University because you are a graduate of Teachers College? --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I showed you official University documents and you are showing me random websites.... TC and Barnard both have different types of affiliations with the university they shouldn't be lumped together, but the affiliation is basically financial not academic so why is it important to list that here? CUfiveo (talk) 16:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes you showed me official university documents and there is no information to contradict the fact that Teachers College and Barnard College are affiliates. Now, I am showing you the official documents on the Provost website which indicate that they are in fact affiliates. Thank you very much. --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

With all due respect, we are talking about Columbia University and how can Columbia.edu be a random website for you? --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I went to Vanderbilt CUfiveo (talk) 16:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok good then I see that you made zero edits on the Vanderbilt page so I see no conflict of interest there. But may I ask why you are so obsessed with Teachers College making probably more than 100 edits? --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I got into TC too and regretfully turned down the opportunity to get an Ivy League degree because of the nonsense I read on here when making my decision... CUfiveo (talk) 16:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

So what if they are "affiliates"? Do you even understand what "affiliate" means? Why does that need to be noted in the grad school listing? It looks stupid... CUfiveo (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Whether I understand the definition of "affiliate" does not matter here; and in fact it might be better not to, because I do not make a predetermined judgment and then forcefully try to come up with a random reason to justify it. I just follow whatever the official Columbia documents and websites say and it happens to be that they use the word "affiliate". Are you admitting that Teachers College is an affiliate but believe that it should not be listed on the page because "it looks stupid"? --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

What do you think "affiliate" means? It looks stupid because it is redundant... CUfiveo (talk) 16:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I reiterate what I said earlier, and my personal thoughts on the word "affiliate" should not be affecting my edits on Wikipedia. If the official documents and websites say that Teachers College is "an official (or insert any word that makes you feel good) school", I just follow that as long as it follows the relevant Wikipedia rules.--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The point is, I use the word "affiliate" not because of my personal preferences but because it is the word used on the official documents of Columbia University and if another word is being used on the official documents, I will just use that word instead.--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Just because Columbia and TC have a complex and unprecedented FINANCIAL relationship (affiliation?) does not have any bearing on the academics or anything else including the fact graduates get Columbia diplomas... CUfiveo (talk) 17:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

So may I ask why it is a problem for you to list an affiliate school as an affiliate school (supported by official documents)? --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Look up the definition of "affiliate" otherwise you are just brainlessly perpetuating a redundancy... CUfiveo (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

What exactly is redundant? If you feel it is redundant or brainless, take it up with the Columbia administration, and not me, because I am not the one who chose to put the word "affiliate" on official documents nor do I have such authority. Apparently, the administration did recognize the complex relationship with Teachers College and determined that the word "affiliate" should be used. I am just following the Columbia administration's decision. --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Here I did it for you:

affiliate verb (əˈfɪlɪˌeɪt) (tr; foll by to or with) to receive into close connection or association (with a larger body, group, organization, etc); adopt as a member, branch, etc (foll by with) to associate (oneself) or be associated, esp as a subordinate or subsidiary; bring or come into close connectionhe affiliated himself with the Union noun (əˈfɪlɪɪt, -ˌeɪt) a person or organization that is affiliated with another (as modifier)an affiliate member

affiliate verb af·​fil·​i·​ate | \ ə-ˈfi-lē-ˌāt \ affiliated; affiliating Legal Definition of affiliate (Entry 1 of 2) transitive verb 1 : to bring or receive into close association as a member or division 2 : to join or associate as a member or division intransitive verb

to connect or associate oneself —usually used with with

has just affiliated with the huge corporation Other Words from affiliate

affiliate noun af·​fil·​i·​ate | \ ə-ˈfi-lē-ət \ Legal Definition of affiliate (Entry 2 of 2)

an affiliated person or organization

specifically : a business entity effectively controlling or controlled by another or associated with others under common ownership or control — compare PARENT sense 2, SUBSIDIARY CUfiveo (talk) 17:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

It's not their descion to list "affiliate" on an encyclopedic entry, it's yours and you are wrong to do it... justify listing it with reason not brainless copying CUfiveo (talk) 17:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

It is my responsibility to ensure that the relationship is accurately listed on Wikipedia, and to do that, I must follow Columbia administration's decision. I am confused: are you saying that we should not use the word "affiliate" for Teachers College because it is wrong or because it is accurate but redundant? You seem to be making two arguments here--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Redundant in that is needlessly repetitive... CUfiveo (talk) 17:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

So to clarify, are you saying that Teachers College is indeed an affiliate, but that fact is already listed somewhere else in the article?--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You can list the exact relationship TC and Columbia have to every minute detail in the description but I find it almost pejorative and redundant to list "affiliate" next to TC in the grad school listing... CUfiveo (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is accurate to say that Teachers College is an affiliate of Columbia University? Why is it pejorative? Is that the reason why you try to delete the word "affiliate" next to Teachers College? Now, if the use of the word "affiliate" is brainlessly redundant, then the other descriptions on the page must be also pejorative --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You had a grand argument and told me to look at the official documents. I told you there is nothing in the official document you presented (the charter) that contradicts the information contained in another official document from the Provost's office that says Teachers College is an affiliate. Now you conveniently do not mention the official documents anymore, but base your arguments that it is "pejorative" to use the word. Let's focus on the facts, not our opinions.--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:55, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

There are better words to describe the relationship than "affiliate", but it is a start to accurately describing it... however to shove "affiliate" into the grad school listing is redundant and so far not unjustified other than something seemingly pejorative CUfiveo (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

justified* CUfiveo (talk) 18:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Why do you think the Columbia administration decided to use the word "affiliate" then? Because they believe that it accurately describes the relationship right? --HamiltonProject (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, $$$ and maybe a little pretentiousness... Who cares what they have to say for wiki anyways, CONFLICT OF INTEREST! Why the people that made the website decided to use the word "affiliate" the way they did in the listing you mean... either way, it comes across as though the term is "non-affiliate" rather than "affiliate" the way it is being used and it is redundant/confusing and should be avoided CUfiveo (talk) 04:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

How is that conflict of interest? The Columbia administration has the right to decide which schools are affiliates. If they did not, there can be an article claiming that Sprite is a Pepsi product because you are saying who cares what Coca-Cola has to say about which products are theirs. What happened to your official documents? Are you forgetting them? Our personal thoughts on the word "affiliate" does not matter. You have told me to look at the official documents so I am doing just that. By the way, if Teachers College was a "non-affiliate" it would not be included in the list in the first place and it is only included because it is an "affiliate", hence the need to clarify the relationship since it is different compared to other schools at Columbia. As you point out in your previous comments that "TC and Barnard both have different types of affiliations with the university they shouldn't be lumped together", Teachers College and other schools at Columbia have different relationships and they should also not be lumped together. --HamiltonProject (talk) 05:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The official statutes should make it clear TC graduates get Columbia University diplomas... Staff and students have a COI that would prevent them from editing... The relationship is unique in its financial situation and administration, academics aren’t different or affected thus no need to clarify “affiliate” in the grad school listing, rather it’d be better to accurately describe the relationship in the body... plus you said it yourself, it wouldn’t be listed if it was a non-affiliate thus adding “affiliate” to the listing is redundant and confusing 2603:9000:6504:12BD:1D2:14E4:C4AF:D435 (talk) 09:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Am I still talking to CUfiveo? Yes, I stand by my previous comments and guarantee you that Teachers College will not be on the list if it was a non-affiliate. However, it is not counted as one of the "schools and colleges" of Columbia University but instead an "affiliate school" (See https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Columbia%20Facts/Facts_2019.pdf).

All you say is that the official statues "should" make it clear that they support your argument, so let's look at what the official documents have to say. Additional documents can be found below.

1. Headcount enrollment by school: no mention of Teachers College (https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statistical%20Abstract/opir_enrollment_history.pdf)

2. Faculty distribution by school: no mention of Teachers College (https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statistical%20Abstract/opir_faculty_history.pdf)

3. Columbia Alumni Association - Alumni Community: Teachers College under affiliate schools, "Please note we are currently not permitted to offer access to alumni of affiliate schools (Teachers College, Barnard College, Union Theological Seminary, Jewish Theological Seminary, and affiliate programs.", however also note that "The Graduate School of Arts & Sciences (GSAS) is the granting school for all Ph.D., Ed.D. and Masters of Philosophy degree holders at Teachers College. T.C. alumni from these specific degree programs will have access to the Alumni Community directory upon graduation." (https://alumni.columbia.edu/content/alumni-community/eligibility)

4. Columbia.edu Website: Scroll down to the bottom, Teachers College listed under "AFFILIATE SCHOOLS" (https://www.columbia.edu/)

5. Columbia University Academics website: "The University offers an outstanding and comprehensive array of academic programs. These include three undergraduate schools, thirteen graduate and professional schools, a world-renowned medical center, four affiliated colleges and seminaries, twenty-five libraries, and more than one hundred research centers and institutes". (https://www.columbia.edu/content/academics)

6. Columbia University Charter and Statues: Representatives from Teachers College listed under "d. Affiliated institution members" in Section II "The University Senate" "...Subject to renegotiation of the existing affiliation agreement with Teachers College, two representatives of the faculty of Teachers College". (page 17) (https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June2017.pdf)

This is PRECISELY the document you told me to use

All in all, take it up with the Columbia administration. But it would be very misleading to lump Teachers College together with other Columbia schools as if they have the same relationship. --HamiltonProject (talk) 11:15, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I’m not arguing TC is often described or listed as an “affiliate” aka “member” or “integrated institution”... what I am arguing is the need to point that out in the graduate school listing section of the wiki when TC is officially the Graduate School of Education of Columbia and gives only Columbia University diplomas and Columbia University is in the actual legal name... it needs to be fully explained in the body that professors get paid by TC not CU and it has a separate endowment and administration to avoid confusion, not this confusing eyesore of a redundancy you keep insisting on by shoving the word “affiliate” in the listing 2603:9000:6504:12BD:1D2:14E4:C4AF:D435 (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Can you just make it clear if you are CUfiveo? So we agree on the facts but disagree on how to present the facts in the article right? --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The fact that Teachers College call themselves as Teachers College, Columbia University is precisely the reason why we cannot lump it together with other Columbia schools as it creates confusion. Consistent with official Columbia documents, we should either remove all affiliate schools from the list or as a compromise, at least indicate affiliate schools are affiliate schools to avoid misleading the reader. --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

It’s the legal name not a whim... You redundantly mislead the reader by shoving “affiliate” into the grad school listing when TC wouldn’t be listed there in the first place if it wasn’t actually an affiliate/grad school... the OPIR office that did those numbers not including TC is either deliberately withholding info or is inept... 2603:9000:6504:12BD:1D2:14E4:C4AF:D435 (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

You cannot tell me you know better than the official documents of Columbia University. At least 7 official documents published by various offices throughout the university (including Office of Planning and Institutional Research, the Provost's Office, the Statues and Charters of Columbia University) all indicate that Teachers College is an affiliate school. Just because you do not like a fact does not mean you can refuse to acknowledge reliable and official sources. --HamiltonProject (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

If the Columbia administration says Teachers College is an affiliate, I do not understand why it would be misleading to put the exact same information in the article. Multiple official documents tell me that Puerto Rico is an "unincorporated territory" of the United States so therefore I write the same information in the article. How would that be considered misleading? It is obvious that to put Puerto Rico in the list of states as if it has the same relationship to the federal government as with other states will mislead the readers. --HamiltonProject (talk) 18:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I do know better if the OPIR is saying TC graduates do not get Columbia University diplomas because they do... there is no debate whether TC is an affiliate, the argument is why do you need to redundantly and confusingly add “affiliate” to a grad school listing that inherently already proves that... 2603:9000:6504:12BD:194F:BCDE:13F8:9FE4 (talk) 22:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

It does not, because according to the dictionary, "affiliate" means "a person or organization officially attached to a larger body" while the other schools are not attached, they are part of the larger body. So the relationship of individual Columbia schools to Columbia University are similar to that of states like Arkansas and Florida to the entire country while Teachers College's relationship to Columbia University is similar to that of Puerto Rico to the United States. Are you going to include Puerto Rico in the list of 50 states and not say they are "unincorporated territory" at all? That is highly misleading and I hope I do not have to give out this obvious example so you understand. It is supported by 7 official documents and it is not redundant at all. It is necessary information. --HamiltonProject (talk) 06:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You are making me think that we should remove all of the affiliate schools from the list altogether. Before I move to do so, I think it is better that we reach an agreement (to keep them in the list but noting they are affiliate schools) because I think I am being more than reasonable here. You agree that Teachers College is an affiliate so we agree on the facts but all you want to do is just hide it. --HamiltonProject (talk) 06:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You can argue that Columbia University's Office of Planning and Institutional Research is inept (they are not) but we have 7 official documents from various offices from the entire university saying that Teachers College is an affiliate and you keep on deleting it from the article. We should take facts over fiction. --HamiltonProject (talk) 06:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

English not your first language? How is it your responsibility to do this? Are you getting paid? Putting “affiliate” (which you clearly still don’t know the definition of) next to “Teachers College, Columbia University”(official legal name) is redundant, you said it yourself, if it was a non-affiliate it wouldn’t be listed there... we both know TC is an affiliate, if you want to better or more accurately describe the actual relationship in the body that would make more sense than putting “affiliate” next to TC if you are trying to avoid confusion. The official charters and statutes (more official than your websites) clearly state TC graduates get Columbia University diplomas, just because the corrupt/inept OPIR doesn’t include TC doesn’t change that... 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 06:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Go ahead and insult me all you want. But the fact remains that I never said it is redundant to put Teachers College as an affiliate school (all I said was if it was a non-affiliate it would not be listed but you cannot just ignore the context if you are lumping it together with other schools). (We agree that non-affiliate schools should not be on the list but also note that being an affiliate school is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for the school to be included in the list without any notation whatsoever) And you are talking about at least 7 official university documents not just from the Office of Planning and Institutional Research. Are you going to put Puerto Rico in the list of 50 states without any notation? Obviously you are not going to do that, so I am asking you to refrain from doing that in the Columbia article. --HamiltonProject (talk) 06:36, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I took the definition of affiliate from Google so take it up with Google. Are you going to say Google is inept? You are hereby notified that I am going to report you for IP socking if this behavior persists. Thank you.--HamiltonProject (talk) 06:38, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You work for the OPIR, COI buddy, stop editing! Those websites aren’t official documents like the official charters and statutes are... now using logic, if the grad school listings inherently are not non-affiliates what does that make them? If you answered affiliates you win a prize! See why adding “affiliate” next to TC there is redundant/confusing now? 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 06:51, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me?

6. Columbia University Charter and Statues: Representatives from Teachers College listed under "d. Affiliated institution members" in Section II "The University Senate" "...Subject to renegotiation of the existing affiliation agreement with Teachers College, two representatives of the faculty of Teachers College". (page 17) (https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June2017.pdf)

This is PRECISELY the document you told me to use and we still have 6 other official documents. Thank you. --HamiltonProject (talk) 06:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Now using logic, you have a list of 50 states because non-affiliates are not included in the list. They must include affiliates, which includes Puerto Rico! So now we are just going to lump it together with other states and pretend that Puerto Rico has the same relationship to the United States as Arkansas or Florida! This is your thought process and unfortunately it does not make sense.--HamiltonProject (talk) 06:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Your analogy is garbage... just accurately describe the relationship between TC and CU in the body and leave the grad school listing alone 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 07:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Then tell me why it is garbage then. Affiliate is the word used by the Columbia administration on various official documents and therefore not only it accurately describes the relationship, but it is the actual relationship. --HamiltonProject (talk) 07:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Also your baseless personal attacks violate policy WP:PA. I do not work for any Columbia office. --HamiltonProject (talk) 07:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Because it doesn’t fully reflect the actual situation... affiliate doesn’t mean non-affiliate when you want it to... once again, the argument is not over whether TC is an affiliate(it is) it’s whether it is appropriate to put the word “affiliate” next to TC in the grad school listing, which is clearly redundant and confusing... to avoid confusion the relationship between TC and CU should be fully and accurately described in the body but the grad school listing should be left alone... 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 07:51, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Since you are telling me it is redundant, I have to go into the definition to tell you it is not redundant at all (by the way, most people will look at the list first and will not bother reading the body, which is probably why you do not want it to appear on the list) but it can be basically any other word and I will use that word instead as long as the Columbia administration uses it on official documents. You cannot come up with an analogy that fits the situation 100% but Teachers College's relationship to Columbia University is similar to that of Puerto Rico with the United States (it is affiliated but not an actual state, but also way closer than a random Canadian province, such as Quebec). --HamiltonProject (talk) 08:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Columbia's website says "The University offers an outstanding and comprehensive array of academic programs. These include three undergraduate schools, thirteen graduate and professional schools, a world-renowned medical center, four affiliated colleges and seminaries" (https://www.columbia.edu/content/academics) but we currently have fifteen graduate schools on the list. This should be 14 including the medical school. If it contradicts the official source, we need an explanation as to why we are listing them anyway.--HamiltonProject (talk) 08:06, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Affiliate is just... affiliate. Nothing more, nothing less. And my personal thoughts or your personal thoughts on the word should not matter at all, what matters is the word used on official documents and it just happens to be that... the word affiliate is being used so we are going to use it in the article as well.--HamiltonProject (talk) 08:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Still no justification to list “affiliate” redundantly next to TC in the grad school listing... if you actually cared about it being confusing you would be arguing for the accurate description of the relationship in the body not for shooting yourself in the foot with the confusing “affiliate” label 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 08:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Because if we do not list "affiliate", it will contradict various official university documents. There should be 14 graduate schools on the list including the medical center, and we have 15 schools. I am doing a favor for you to come up with an excuse so that Teachers College can remain on the list.--HamiltonProject (talk) 08:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, why are you not including Jewish Theological Seminary or Union Theological Seminary (also affiliate schools) on the list if that is the case? You are just selectively applying your own rules so your favorite Teachers College (a school that you were accepted to, as you have already admitted) appears on the list no matter what. I can create another list for just the affiliate schools and note that the relationship is explained in the body if you are willing to agree on this reasonable proposal.--HamiltonProject (talk) 08:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Those aren’t official university documents and if they are they need to be changed... TC should definitely not get lumped in with those schools the relationship between Columbia and them are so much different. TC is an official grad school and can only give out CU diplomas while JTS offers non-Columbia degree programs with one joint degree program... UTS doesn’t offer any programs leading to a Columbia University diplomas... TC’s President is a CU dean... dude find something better to do 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick reminder that “affiliate” does not mean “non-affiliate”... you clearly are still having trouble with that word 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

As an affiliate school, Teachers College should be lumped together with Jewish Theological Seminary and not with Columbia graduate schools like the Law School and the Business School. Again, we are talking about not just 1 document, we are talking about 7 official documents! Take it up with the Columbia administration and see if they are willing to change it. If they agree to remove Teachers College from the affiliate schools list, then we can talk about it. --HamiltonProject (talk) 15:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Don’t need to change the stupid website to get it right on wiki... you know TC students can take classes at the B-School and classes at every other Columbia grad school they have the prereqs for right? 2603:9000:6504:12BD:3565:AD3:A403:1C47 (talk) 16:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately (for you), the official websites and the sources are right, while your fantasy world chooses to ignore the facts. You admit that you cannot change it right? There is nothing stronger than the truth so if the Columbia administration says Teachers College is an official school in the documents, we will write it that way in the Wikipedia article as well. By choosing to ignore facts and official sources, you are destroying Wikipedia. By the way, New York University students can take language classes at Columbia but does that make them Columbia students? Give me a break.--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

That analogy is weak and the "official" sources you cite aren't official or correct... your website isn't more official than the official Statues and Charters of CU which clearly state TC graduates get CU diplomas... TC should definitely not get lumped in with JTS or UTS or even Barnard, the relationship between Columbia and them are so much different. TC is an official grad school and can only give out CU diplomas while JTS offers non-Columbia degree programs with only one joint degree program... UTS doesn’t offer any programs leading to a Columbia University diploma... TC’s President is a CU dean... TC is on another level than those seminary schools and it should be reflected in the listing... TC is the official grad school of education of CU it shouldn't have the word "affiliate" redundantly shoved next to it, rather fully describe the relationship in the body CUfiveo (talk) 19:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

PS as was stated before the word "affiliate" doesn't mean "non-affiliate"... you keep forgetting CUfiveo (talk) 19:29, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If you look at page 17 of the Official Statues and Charters, it is clear that Teachers College is an affiliated institution. I will not get into the diploma issue (according to Columbia Alumni Association website, Ph.D., Ed.D and M.Phil. candidates at Teachers College do receive Columbia diplomas, not sure about the other degree candidates and I am not taking a position on this issue pending review), but again, this should be resolved according to the official university documents. The question of whether Teachers College is an affiliate school should also be resolved according to the official university documents. I think it is entirely possible for a graduate from an affiliate school to receive a Columbia diploma but the fact remains that Teachers College is designated as an affiliate school of the university under the Official Statues and Charters.--HamiltonProject (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If you oppose lumping Barnard College and Teachers College together because they are "so much different", think about lumping Teachers College and the Business School together. They are completely different. --HamiltonProject (talk) 20:15, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

YOU STILL DONT GET THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD "AFFILIATE" STOP EDITING UNTIL YOU DO... (check out page 97 for TC degree/diploma info https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June%202013.pdf) Barnard only gives out bachelor degrees and negotiated their relationship with CU completely separate from TC... TC exclusively grants CU graduate degrees as the official graduate school of education, the business school exclusively grants CU graduate degrees too, thus they both should be listed together in the grad school listings... CUfiveo (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You can interpret affiliate as you wish but that is basically the word used every time in official documents when Columbia describes their relationship with Teachers College so why oppose using the same word? You seem to think that whether a school is an affiliate or not is solely determined by the diploma (because you want to argue that Teachers College that you were accepted to grants Columbia degrees), and that is not true. Here, I am talking more about the financial aspects and that they have their own board of trustees, which justifies the use of the word affiliate. Columbia Business School does not have their own board of trustees. Barnard College and Teachers College do. Barnard College pays a couple of million dollars every year to Columbia to use Columbia facilities. Teachers College has an affiliation agreement signed with Columbia and you do not sign an agreement with yourself. Hence, affiliated. You admit that you were accepted to Teachers College above (June 2, 16:39 UTC) so you should stop editing the article as it is conflict of interest to do so. --HamiltonProject (talk) 03:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

HamiltonProject, you are invited to the Teahouse!

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CUfiveo IPs

Hi HamiltonProject,

Let's consider your and my comments on their user-talk as a final warning--please let me know any further (after "now") and I'll file an SPI to help collect data. DMacks (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

As you have suggested, my hope is that CUfiveo starts to discuss and to play by the rules so the admins do not have to take additional measures. I will report if his IP socking persists. Thank you. --HamiltonProject (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

TC

Teachers College, ColumbiaUniversity, although a separate corporate structure, is the official Faculty and Graduate Department of Education of Columbia University, and TC graduates are Columbia University alumni. Someone mistakenly deleted the sentence, "TC graduates are Columbia University alumni" from the page "Relationship with Columbia University." I hope that sentence will be restored. Brewsterm1 (talk) 21:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

TC Graduates are Columbia University Alumni

I'm not familiar with this process and hope I am connecting with the correct editor. I apologize if you have already received this message. If you deleted the sentence, "Teachers College graduates are Columbia University alumni," this was done in error and it should be restored. I have researched this thoroughly. I am a Columbia grad and worked for a time in the TC admissions office. Teachers College, Columbia University, graduates receive Columbia degrees (TC does not grant degrees), and TC is the official Faculty and Department of Education of Columbia, although operating under a separate corporate structure. As you have read, TC graduates may join Columbia alumni association clubs as well as the Columbia Club of New York. Brewsterm1 (talk) 22:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. If you can show me the exact sources that you have researched, it might be helpful in actually restoring it. Note the difference between being able to join Columbia Alumni Association through a opt-in process (which is unique to Teachers College, a separately incorporated entity) and actually being alumni of the university. I think we have to be very careful about the meaning of alumni here; how would you define alumni anyway? --HamiltonProject (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Let me also add that, for someone who has only edited 4 times on Wikipedia, you seem to have a very good understanding of the process. If you can give me some sources that will allow us to reach the conclusion without making any inferences, I have no problem in restoring it.--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)