Talk:Syracuse University Alma Mater

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Syracuse University Alma Mater/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Eddie891 (talk · contribs) 19:36, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed) I can review this shortly. I'm from Syracuse so have passing familiarity with the University. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Some initial thoughts:

• You don't mention or cite that the melody is from "the then-popular Irish melody Annie Lisle" in the article text
• You say there are three verses, but only include two in the 'lyrics' section, and no citation is provided.
• Junius Steven's quote doesn't match the source exactly-- double check?
• The line "The university also has a fight song entitled "Down the Field," commonly played after SU scores in athletic matches." needs a citation
• Do you have any information about the history of the alma mater between 1893 and 1986? I'll look and see if I can dig anything up

Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:07, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

@Eddie891: I'll try to ammend/clarify some of your concerns: (I think I will update these into the article now)

• Annie Lisle refs: also mentioned in the already cited (albeit somewhere else) ref

• Re Annie Lisle, you just need to add a mention and a citation to the article body. One of those would be perfect Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• If you observe the handwritten lyrics, you will note three stanzas and the chorus at the bottom. I think the clearer way to say would be: "The song includes three verses, but only the first verse is commonly sung along with the chorus." Hope this doesn't counts as WP:OR.

• I think that may be OR, what you could say is something like While the original handwritten copy of the song includes three stanzas and a chorus,[reference] SU's website only lists the verse and the chorus[cited to https://cuse.com/sports/2010/8/18/GEN_0818103320] - Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Junius Steven's quote is partially given in one of the cited refs. Other ref where entire quote is available is "while I was walking home across the city — I lived in the northerly section — an idea for the song came to me. I had often noticed how the setting sun lighted up the walls of Crouse College long after dusk had fallen over the city and the valley. As I walked through the empty streets the words of a song took shape in my mind. By the time I reached home, the song was finished". The text in article omits " I lived in the northerly section" as it seems unnecessary. Let me know if you would like the entire quote as is. That can surely be done.

• The quote should just have ellipses if you omit part per MOS:ELLIPSES Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Refs for Down the Field.

• Those refs work, just please add to the article in the relevant spot Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Didn't really check up on that. Will try to find it.

• I can email the Onondaga Historical Association and ask them if they have any material, if you want. I'll be back in Syracuse next week so could stop by if needed. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

References

 Done I have added above discussed and some more content. Kiran_891 ^(TALK) 18:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your changes made so far, @Kiran891. I'm checking the sourcing, and I'm concerned that some of the content is phrased too close to the source. For instance, you write The Albany Alumni Association published a pamphlet of "Songs of Syracuse" in early 1904 and the source saysThe Albany Alumni Association published a pamphlet of " Songs of Syracuse" early in 1904. I don't think this is intentional, and it doesn't seem to be all the prose, but could you take a look again and rephrase parts that line up too closely to the source text? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:28, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Sometimes there are only so many ways to paraphrase text, but I agree that one was particularly similar to the source. I went through the article and changed a few things, added an image, made some citation style changes, and overall I think a minor improvement to the page. Let me know if there's something I can improve on. Thanks. Kiran_891 ^(TALK) 21:15, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I will take a look again shortly. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:55, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, that was not shortly at all, my sincerest apologies for that, but there are still some points that come up on another read through:

1. FN # 21 (https://books.google.com/books?id=1A47BAAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s) seems to be published by Arcadia publishing, rather than Triumph Books, which you cite it to. Arcadia is not a reliable publisher, so that source should be replaced
2. There's still text too closely paraphrased to the original source: for instance, In the spring of 1986, the University Senate made an amendment to the lyrics, changing the line "May thy sons be leal [sic?] and loyal" to "Loyal be thy sons and daughters" in order to be more inclusive and recognize the institution's coeducational beginnings vs the line ... was changed in the spring of 1986 to ... to be more inclusive' and to reflect that Syracuse has always been coeducational... The structure of the sentence, especially the second half is, imo, too similar, especially exact duplication of "to be more inclusive". Please try rephrasing further.

However, it seems a lot better, and these are the last two points that came up for me. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:23, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the taking a final look. I have changed/paraphrased the text, split in two senteces to make it more readable.

I have commented out ref due to concerns about reputation of the publisher, but that book is written by staff associated with Syracuse University Archives/libraries (see acknowledgement on page 6) so I think this should be considered a valid reference. The other ref from the <SU magazine> is a first hand account of event leading to the change, so I wonder if another ref is even needed. Another <exhibit> ref that describes this update was reused. Here are some other sources you prefer a new one over the others.

1. * SU archives: https://www.facebook.com/SyracuseUniversityArchives/photos/a.379937082075948/2665154466887520/
2. * Law petition by Yale Law: https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/clinic/vlsc_va_petition_for_rulemaking_10-12-2018.pdf on page 13

(On another note: The alma mater for Claflin University, an HBCU in South Carolina, borrows heavily from the Syracuse Alma mater. Even they changed the lyrics from "May thy sons be leal and loyal" to "May we all be leal and loyal".)

Thanks. Kiran_891 ^(TALK) 22:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 16:11, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Handwritten copy of the "Syracuse University Alma Mater" by Junius Stevens (circa 1893)

• ... that the "Syracuse University Alma Mater", written in 1893, is based on the popular Irish melody "Annie Lisle"? Source: https://vault.si.com/vault/1954/10/11/the-bands-play-on "... There is a bitterness between Syracuse and Cornell because Cornell's Far Above Cayuga's Waters is more famous than Syracuse's Where the Vale of Onondaga, though both are built on the same tune. The tune is Annie Lisle, a schmaltzy ballad of Civil War days..."
  • ALT1: ... that "Syracuse University Alma Mater" was sung by the University Glee and Banjo Club on March 15, 1893, at the Wieting Opera House? Source: https://digitalexhibits.syr.edu/su150/150-years-of-tradition/songs/ "Flag we love! Orange!” wrote Junius Stevens, Class of 1895, and author of the Alma Mater of Syracuse University. The Alma Mater was first sung in public on March 15, 1893, by the University Glee and Banjo Club in a concert at the Wieting Opera House in Syracuse..."
  • ALT2: ... that the lyrics to? "Syracuse University Alma Mater", written in 1893, were ammendeded in 1986 to to honor the institution's coeducational roots. Source: https://surface.syr.edu/sumagazine/vol2/iss3/3/ Changing Our Tune", 1986, Article by economics faculty member professor Aubrey Dale Tussing discusses his efforts to effect this change.
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: I tried submitting DYK once, but I didn't know enough back then, may be I will get it this time. Don't know if this image is any good; there's an oil-painting of the guy who wrote it.. may be that will be better; there are multiple images there...

Improved to Good Article status by Kiran891 (talk). Self-nominated at 03:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Syracuse University Alma Mater; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - n

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Kiran891: Good article. Though, is there a better hook that could be made? alt1 isn't that interesting while alt0 could work but I feel like it also couldn't. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• @BlueMoonset and Onegreatjoke:, I have added another hook now. Between alt0 and alt2, I think there's good chance for status to change.

@Kiran891: Hook is still not good. Firstly, it should only be one sentence. Second, stuff "that (the lyrics to?)" and "was (were)". lastly, hook looks too long. Onegreatjoke (talk) 17:32, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Onegreatjoke: Hi Onegreatjoke, I would like to withdraw this nom as I can't see myself coming up with an interesting enough hook. I did shorten ALT2 a bit. Kiran_891 ^(TALK) 09:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)