Talk:Sultanate of Hobyo

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Date Hobyo sultanate was founded, the red flag and coat of arms.

The sultanate of Hobyo was founded in 1884. This is congruous with the primary academic sources available and the historical timeline of Yuusuf 'Ali, the founder of the sultanate, who was involved in a bitter political tussle in the Majjerten interior in the years prior to 1884. As a resolution, 'Ali left his home region for the coastal town of Hobyo and established the sultanate of Hobyo. Where David Lea's 'A Political Chronology of Africa' offers a comprehensive look at African history but misses the mark with regards to the specific date of the formation of the sultanate, WK Durrill's 'Atrocious Misery: The African Origins of Famine in Northern Somalia, 1839-1884' provides a detailed account of the Majjerten sultanate, the rivalry between Yuusuf 'Ali and his cousin (the king of the Majjerten sultanate,) and how Yuusuf 'Ali fled to establish the sultanate of Hobyo in 1884. I believe this particular scholarship is more authoritative with regards to the inception of the sultanate of Hobyo.

As a side discussion, the flag and coat of arms were unsourced and so was the map showing the alleged territory of the sultanate. Can a source please be provided or can it otherwise be left removed until such a time a source is provided. Thank you Originoftruth (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Firstly the sultanate was founded in the 1870s this is clearly presented in the same source you've quoted called "A Political Chronology of :Africa" used before you reverted the stable version of the article.

Text corncerned: 1870s: Kenaadiid returned to the Majeerteen, accompanied by a Hadhrami army, he conoured the local Hawiye clans, and :created the Sultanate of Hobyo

This is a direct quote from the source provded. As you can see it clearly states the sultanate was founded in the 1870s, not 1884.

Found another source stating the exact same thing, that Sultanate of Hobyo was established in the 1870s https://books.google.ro/books?:id=0xzLttlApVwC&pg=PT29&lpg=PT29&dq=sultanate+of+hobyo&source=bl&ots=sQxAkxP9ja&sig=D0YH3c2qCD_W45QwxVmIEr3JVfI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo9_mMrdPbAhVDAcAKHYOqAjY4FBDoAQg5MAQ#v=onepage&q=hobyo&f=false

I think this is conclusive evidence that justified it being in the article.

Secondly, the coat of arms is supported by this source from the UK depicting the various flags in the history of Somalia, there source is here :https://www.flagmakers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Flag-of-Somalia-A-Brief-History-Download.pdf. As you can see at the bottom of the :page it clearly depicts the Sultanate of Hobyo and the current coat of arms correctly used in this article, Although not sourced in the past, :it clearly is sourced as i've added the source in to support it now.

Pepsmiand (talk) 14:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for the swift reply. I think you might have misunderstood the aim of my discussion. I brought up 'A Political Chronology of Africa' initially to call into question the date that it states the sultanate was founded - which is a diminutive part in that comprehensive encyclopedia. I presented what I believe to be a more authoritative piece of scholarship that dealt with Yuusuf 'Ali more intimately and whose entire focus was the region to which the sultanate of Hobyo belonged, as opposed to, the totality of African history. If you read 'Atrocious Misery: The African Origins of Famine in Northern Somalia, 1839-1884' pages 304/305 it says the following,

"To Revoil, the Majeerteen country appeared "constantly at war."
These battles involved single lineages and villages and were smaller and less
organized than those of 1868, probably because the struggle between the 'Ismaan
and 'Ali Suleymaan lineages had become open warfare by the end of 1880. By
December, 'Ali Suleymaan leaders had accepted protectorate status and perhaps
military aid from the Italian government. In addition, Yuusuf 'Ali claimed
twenty-five hundred to three thousand new client-warriors who had shared in the
booty from the two shipwrecks that his clan looted. 'Ali Suleymaan leaders,
therefore, were able to attack 'Ismaan from their base at 'Alula. In retaliation, the
sultan attacked 'Alula and succeeded in taking it on January 15, 1881. But Yuusuf
'Ali and his army escaped. They retreated into the adjacent Siwakron territory
where Yuusuf 'Ali convinced the Siwakron to join him against 'Ismaan. Worse
still for the sultan, Yuusuf 'Ali persuaded the large 'lise Mahamuud lineage
to participate in a general attack to surround and destroy 'Ismaan and his
army. The 'lise Maahamuud dominated the Nugaal Valley, and their chief,
nominally subordinate to the sultan, controlled his own force of fifteen hundred
horsemen.
Whatever the exact outcome of these battles, the 'Istnaan Mahiamuud and 'Ali
Suleymaan'lineages reached a military stalemate by 1883 and finally compromised.
'Ismaan confirmed Yuusuf 'Ali's position as 'Alula's legitimate chief. In return,
Yuusuf 'Ali accepted the sultanate's paramountcy, presumably agreeing to abide
by an 'Ism'aan monopoly of booty. To ensure the deal, the sultan married Yuusuf s
daughter, Aisha. Each would reign supreme in his own sphere, but Yuusuf 'Ali
temporarily disclaimed greater ambitions because 'Ismaan held his daughter as a
pawn. This solution did not last long. In 1883, with Italian support, Yuusuf 'Ali
organized a sultanate of his own at Hobyo on the south coast below the Majeerteen
border, which left many in the 'Ali Suleymaan lineage stranded at 'Alula and
especially vulnerable when 'Ismaan moved his permanent residence there"

Not only has this history dealt with Yuusuf 'Ali personally but it also provides specific dates and a detailed timeline of the events prior to the founding of the sultanate of Hobyo, which would have been impossible in "the 1970s" as Yuusuf 'Ali was fighting a war with his cousin for leadership of the Majjerten sultanate. Only after this war, and as compromise did 'Ali flee to establish the sultanate of Hobyo in 1884. The references that form this timeline, which places Yuusuf 'Ali in the early 1880s in the furthest most corner of the Horn of Africa, away from Hobyo, fighting a war for leadership, are from British and Italian colonial and non-colonial figures. At the bottom of the pages 304 and 305 you can find these references. To me this is more exhaustive and credible than a passing mention in an encyclopedia. I hope you and other curious readers will agree.

If you disagree however with my reasoning or with what is written in 'Atrocious Misery: The African Origins of Famine in Northern Somalia, 1839-1884' (which was a reference for another item already in this wiki) then please do share.

As for the flag and the coat of arms: 'flagmakers' leads me to a commercial website that makes flags. Also, I could not find the plain red flag which is purported to be the flag of the sultanate - not on flagmakers nor anywhere else for that matter. The coat of arms would be better presented in my opinion as an emblem, seeing as it was not used anywhere except on letters - this is a small detail of course. The red flag however should be removed, in order to be as factually correct as possible.

Originoftruth (talk) 00:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

This is a direct quote from the Source i've cited , A Political Chronology of Africa -> "1870s Kenaadiid returned to the Majeerteen, accompanied by a Hadhrami army, he conquered the local Hawiye clans, and created the Sultanate of Hobyo ". Its not a matter of me disagreeing, the source explicitly states Sultanate of Hobyo was established in 1870s and therefore I've included it in the article. Your 'reasoning' is just that, reasoning, there is no source provided prove sultanate of hobyo was established in 1884 on the other hand, there is sourced content outlining explicitly that the establishment of the sultanate happening in the 1870s, I don't think the source referenced can be any clearer and i've added it into the article

Pepsmiand (talk) 18:49, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I think my 'reasoning' is entirely valid and it is how consensus is formed on the talk pages of wiki articles about key facts but what you're implying is that you are not interested in constructive discussion. Which by the way is no discussion at all, so refrain from disruptively editing the wikipedia unless you actually bother to address the point of the discussion and explain why your 'source' is convincing except for the fact that you've used the word source and made some text bold. Originoftruth (talk) 14:04, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Originoftruth and Mohamed958543 are likely to be sockpuppts. They are removing content they don't like. Pepsmiand Brazal5 (talk) 08:26, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

That's a outlandish accusation. And ironically, if one looks at the history of this article, there is a succession of fishy individuals hellbent on reverting (and possibly edit warring) the article back to a "stable version". A few of these individuals have been banned for edit warring and sock-puppetry in other Somalia-related wikis.

As I have noticed, these individuals appeal to authority by using buzzwords such as "stable version" and try smear others as sock puppets with the apparent aim of shutting down debate. Accusing me -- without evidence -- of sock-puppetry will not get me banned for the simple reason that I do not sock puppet, but it does make you look a part of this aforementioned cohort. Also, I only remove something when it is not reasonably evidenced. Maybe it is you who doesn't "like" that. I have started a discussion here on the talk page only to discuss some key facts about the Hobyo sultanate. If you cannot contribute to this discussion, refrain from making disruptive charges.

Pepsmiand, I will go ahead and make the minor edits with regards to the emblem, but I will wait on you to provide more information about the plain red flag and share your view with me about the date the Hobyo sultanate was founded. Looking forward to it. Originoftruth (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, never mind about the coat of arms/emblem. It is described as an emblem already within the source of the image Originoftruth (talk) 08:00, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Separate discussion between Mohamed958543 and Brazal5

Stop adding unsourced information. I have only undid the sources information you have removed. I also removed where it says “Preceded by majerteen sultanate” it’s not sourced and it is not true, majerteen did not rule hobyo Before hobyo sultanate was established.

You should also stop writing none sense in my personal user page accusing me of being “sock puppet”. You’re probably the same sock puppet named “Zakaria” who has been busted over 30 times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohamed958543 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Hobyo sultanate map.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Flag/Map/Coat of arms

Similar to the Majeerteen Sultanate article, the flag, map, and coat of arms provided should be removed as they are not referenced in credible sources. The citation provided [1] has no mention of a map, flag, or coat of arms. Koodbuur (talk) 20:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The map is based on the description provided in the book. The source regarding the flag can be found in the image source. The source regarding the emblem can be found in the notes of the articles. Felinepaw (talk) 20:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia content must have high-quality, verifiable sources. Both the map and emblem are user-generated files based on vague descriptions. There is no immediate need for inclusion of files not supported by reliable sources. http://ethnia.org appears to be user-generated too. Koodbuur (talk) 23:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Point out which descriptions are vague. Felinepaw (talk) 23:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Using text descriptions from a source with questionable reliability does not support the addition of user-generated content. If you do not have direct reliable and verifiable sources supporting the content you wish to include then please remove the files until such time reliable sources can be found. Koodbuur (talk) 00:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a published reliable source. Given that the material was already existing, you have no reason to remove it. What are the vague descriptions you speak of? Felinepaw (talk) 00:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Please WP:LISTEN, there are no published reliable sources with the map or flag you are attempting to include. If you wish to include the text descriptions you may do so as long as the source is reliable and verifiable. Ethnia.org is also user generated site. Refusal to get the point at this stage can be seen as disruptive. Koodbuur (talk) 00:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The content is verifiable and cited. For the jurisdiction the map is based on, you can check: The Collapse of The Somali State: The Impact of the Colonial Legacy p. 41. There are other sources for the flags including the books: Huddur & the history of Southern Somalia p.3 and Atti parlamentari, Volume 1 1897, page 32. Felinepaw (talk) 00:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I added the image source earlier in my responses to you. Felinepaw (talk) 00:54, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The map you have included is not published by any reliable source, as such it can not included in an encyclopaedic article. The text description can be included provided the source is reliable. Same guidelines apply to the flag and emblem. You have not provided any scholarly source that had published them, instead, a vague text description and http://Ethnia.org which is user-generated. Do you have any other published reliable sources? Koodbuur (talk) 12:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, the map is based on a published book. The book itself has been used as a reference in other Wikipedia articles. You haven’t explained what makes it unreliable. It appears you have a personal problem with it. You haven’t explained what vague description you are taking about. Can you quote it? Felinepaw (talk) 13:28, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

You have moved the goalpost and abandoned your OR claim regarding the flag. The book you claim is unreliable is hosted on the Roma Tre University site and is used as a source of reference by other articles. If you want to dispute its reliability you have to take it to a noticeboard. Felinepaw (talk) 13:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The flag you are attempting to insert is not published in the book. Only a single-sentence text description of a red flag is included, you may include the text description if you wish, but having a flag file included in the article requires a published source. Likewise for the map, no published source you have provided so far has included the map. Again, you may include the text if supported by a reliable source, but until you can provide a scholarly source that has published the map, flag and and emblem, these files should not be added. Koodbuur (talk) 15:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The flag is based on sources from historic act of the Italian parliament and a published book (Huddur & the history of Southern Somalia p.3). There is also the Worldstatesman which is widely used on Wikipedia. The Isse-Salwe 1994 book contains the description of the jurisdiction of the Sultanate which the map is based on. Both are acceptable sources. Till you are able to explain why none of these sources are reliable, there's no reason to remove longstanding material it. Felinepaw (talk) 15:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Did the source you mention explicitly publish the flag? If not then you should only include what the source you are citing has published. Same for the map, did the source you are citing publish a map? If not you are limited to what the source actually published. Koodbuur (talk) 15:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The map is used as an illustration, which is permissible. If you find the sources unreliable you have to take it to the noticeboard. Felinepaw (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Felinepaw, can you provide any reliable source that actually published the files in question? If not I suggest removal of files. Kangdomkome (talk) 06:53, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, read through this discussion. However I have to point out that this definitely looks like a canvassing tactic given that you have never edited this these pages before. Felinepaw (talk) 21:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Please stick to the discussion at hand, do you have any source that published the files? If you can not provide direct sources that previously published these files then they should be removed.Kangdomkome (talk) 08:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

As I've said, read through this discussion. If you find any specific sources unreliable, point it out. Felinepaw (talk) 18:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The issue is that you have not provided published a reliable source that has actually published the files (map, flag, coat of arms) you are including. You can either include the text descriptions from the sources you are citing and remove the files, or provide a reliable source that had published the files.Koodbuur (talk) 13:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The files are illustrations which are acceptable. You have deemed the sources as unreliable and I would like you to point out which are and take it to the noticeboard. Felinepaw (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I am have not stated that the sources you have provided are not reliable, I am just asking for you to provide a reliable source that includes the files in question (map, flag, coat of arms). Koodbuur (talk) 12:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

You have stated that the sources are not reliable, if you would scroll up. You are allowed to use illustrations as long as the source it's based on is reliable. If you now admit that the sources are not unreliable, then I am guessing you have no issue. Original images are not considered original research as long as they do not demonstrate unpublished ideas. Felinepaw (talk) 23:42, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Strikethrough comments by confirmed sock please see WP:Sockpuppet_investigations/Middayexpress. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiraab

Natalie904 Follow the BRD policy and refrain from removing anything without seeking consensus first.

If you read into this WordPress history. It'll explain how Hobyo used to be an important port of Hiraab Imamate then later fell under a young ambitious dissident of the northeast, allied with an army of Hadrami musketeers, had managed to seize Hobyo and formally declared an independent sultanate. The references are found below when you scroll down. [2] Ayaltimo (talk) 22:58, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Lee Cassanelli links "Hobya" with the Hobyo Sultanate and not with the Hiraab Imamate: [3]. There are no other secondary or primary sources that back up the claim that the Hiraab Imamate effectively controlled Obbia prior to the sultanate which makes your claim lack credibility, accuracy, or reliability. If you cannot bring forward any credible primary or secondary sources for your claim then it will have to be considered disruptive editing and will be reverted. Please also take some time to familiarise yourself with welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia.Natalie904 (talk) 20:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

There are Italian primary source telling you Imam Mahamud Omar the ruler of Hiraab Imamate governed Obbio.

Mahamud Omar conquistò successivamente il territorio dei Dafet e dei Rahanuin, bruciando paesi ed assoggetando popolazioni. Iman Mahamud avrebbe governato quelle che si estende dalle duno fino ai territori conquistati e fino ad Obbia ed anche l'interno a nord di Obbia. All'Iman Mahamud Omar morto in combattimento a Geris, presso Galòl, successe il primogenito Ahmed.

"Mahamud Omar subsequently conquered the territory of Dafet and the Rahanuin, burning countries and subjugating populations. Iman Mahamud now governed the territories extending from the dunes to the conquered territories and up to Obbia and also the region north of Obbia. Iman Mahamud Omar who died in combat in Geris, near Galòl, was succeeded by his eldest son Ahmed."

Please don't tell me about the rules of Wikipedia. Did you know you can't add a source right next to the preceding and succeeding states? It's agreed upon that Obbio was a Hirab clan territory that came under Yusuf Ali Kenadid. Although Hiraab state was fractured and weak, the Hiraab Imam from Mogadishu nominally ruled all Hawiye territories in southern and central Somalia. Thus it's perfectly acceptable to add Hiraab Imamate as the successor state of Hobyo Sultanate because there was no state in between the time period of Hobyo and Hirab that effectively governed Mudug. We're talking about civilization succession here and it does not mean all of the traditional Hiraab territories fell under Hobyo, only parts of it. If you want to play this game, we can remove Majerteen Sultanate succession because we both know no traditional territory from Majerteen Sultanate merged with Hobyo and Kenadiid old affiliation means nothing so I will kindly ask you to refrain from your disruptive behaviour on here since you have been reverted by other users on different pages, thank you. Ayaltimo (talk) 22:34, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Date of Foundation

The Sultanate of Hobyo was established in 1884. In 1878 kenadid, founder of the state was in Alula, fighting Boqor Osman mohamud and the Majerten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamzza1234 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)