Talk:Stefan Banach/Archive 1

Archive 1

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"Lwow" would be the Polish way of writing it. I am not as knowledgable about Russian, but there are unfortunately many transliterations from Russian to the Latin alphabet, so both may be correct. --Erik Demaine 16:21, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

The city's Polish name is "Lwów." The Russian name is "L'vov" or, without the "miaki znak" (palatalization sign), "Lvov." To Ukrainians, the city's current owners, it's "L'viv" or "Lviv." logologist|Talk 10:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

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NPOV

The word "great" (in the first sentence) seems a bit POV to me. Sorry to be so picky about the rules, if anyone objects just state your opinion and readd it. Flockmeal 21:16, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

It's not really POV. If you ask one hundred mathematicians living today if Stefan Banach was a great mathematician, one hundred of them would say yes. But you're right, it's probably better not to use the word. We would run into difficulties if we tried to distinguish the 'great' from the 'not-great' mathematicians, even though some cases are clear. So I put in the qualifier 'eminent' which is inarguable. Brian Tvedt 13:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Banach is a Ukrainian mathematician

Some anonymous user insists on calling Banach a Ukrainian mathematician and urges all those who request sources to check the Ukrainian wiki. Well, I did and it seems that the Ukrainian wiki article on him calls him a Pole exclusively (Народився у Краковi, поляк. - Born in Cracow, a Pole.). As a matter of fact he was not born in Cracow at all, although he spent most of his childhood there. According to this site, for instance, both of his parents were Polish, górale from the area of Nowy Targ in the Tatra Mountains. That's hardly the Ukraine, if you asked me. //Halibutt 10:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The Ukrainian wiki article on Stefan Banach clearly identifies Banach as both Ukrainian and Polish mathematician.

Banach spent most of his professional career in the Ukrainian city of Lviv, including the periods while this city was still occupied by Austro-Hungary, dictator-ruled militarist Poland or Nazi Germany. Banach was a member of the Academy of Science of Ukraine and he has made many important contributions to the Ukrainian science, both during the Polish and German occupations of Lviv, and after Lviv was finally liberated and re-united with the rest of Ukraine. Stefan Banach was a professor and a chair of mathematics at the Ivan Franko University of Lviv, Ukraine.

Polish extremist chauvinists should be prevented from vandalizing the Wikipedia articles on eminent Ukrainian mathematicians belonging to the world-famous Lviv school of Ukrainian mathematics! 67.180.67.179 11:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Errr... sorry to disapoint you, my friend, but apart from the fact that in 1946 most of the city's population had been expelled and replaced with Ukrainians, there was little "Ukrainian" in that city before the end of WWII. Of course, Ukrainians have always considered that town as one of their cities and righfully so (just like London is now a notable centre of Polish culture), but that does not yet make it a Ukrainian town and all of its inhabitants Ukrainians, does it. Similarly, not all inhabitants of London are Poles, just like not all 20th century inhabitants of Wrocław were Poles. And, the only reason why Banach did not leave with the first group of the deportees (he was already on the list and was named a head of a Chair at the Jagiellonian University in Cracow) is that in January he was diagnosed a lung cancer and died soon afterwards.

This, my dear hot-headed friend, has little to do with nationalism, chauvinism or any other bias. Banach was simply not Ukrainian and had little to do with Ukraine whatsoever. Similarly, we don't call Stepan Bandera an Austrian-Polish-Ukrainian politician, do we. //Halibutt 12:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Halibutt, I hope you will agree that we should all refrain from personal attacks and name-calling, in order for this discussion to remain useful and constructive. Let's stick to the neutral tone and avoid the demeaning definitions like "my dear hot-headed friend", regardless of how dear the hot-headed friend of your opponent may be to you personally. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.180.67.179 (talk) 07:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

The current entry on Stefan Banach has become a subject of systematic vandalism attacks by a small clique of Polish ultra-nationalist chauvinists.

The eminent Ukrainian and Polish mathematician Stefan Banach has taught at the university of Lviv, Ukraine most of his life, including the periods of time, when Lviv was occupied by dictator-ruled militarist Poland or Nazi Germany. Banach was a member of the Ukrainian Academy of Science and he became a full professor at Lviv university after the city of Lviv, Ukraine was finally liberated from German and Polish occupation.

Ukrainian Wikipedia correctly lists Stefan Banach as Ukrainian and Polish mathematician, taking into account both his origins, place of work and the contribution to the mathematical school of Ivan Franko University in Lviv, Ukraine.

Despite that, the Stefan Banach Wikipedia article has been systematically vandalised by Polish extreme nationalist characters. Their purpose is to erase and to distort the record of the Ukrainian roots of Stefan Banach and many other mathematicians who lived and worked in the city of Lviv, Ukraine.

Banach's nationality

Is Encyclopedia Britannica Online a "Polish nationalist" publication? According to Britannica, "Stefan Banach, born March 30, 1892, Kraków, Austria-Hungary (now in Poland), died August 31, 1945, Lvov, Ukrainian S.S.R. (now Lviv, Ukraine) [was a] Polish mathematician who founded modern functional analysis and helped develop the theory of topological vector spaces...." logologist|Talk 10:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Nationalist? Nope, but Britannica is surely a Polish chauvinist publication. //Halibutt 19:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Stefan Banach entry was vandalized after it was protected against the Polish chauvinists

Polish ultra-nationalists somehow managed to vandalize the Stefan Banach Wikipedia entry after it was protected - see the history of the entry on Stefan Banach. This vandalism has been going on for months. The purpose of these Polish chauvinists is to erase and to distort any mentioning of the Stefan Banach contribution to and afiliation with the Ukrainian mathematics.

Most of the Banach's professional career took place in the Ukrainian city of Lviv. Banach chaired the department of mathematics in Ivan Franko University in Lviv. He is also one of the most prominent members of the world-famous Lviv School of Mathematics. Banach was a member of Ukrainian Academy of Science and colaborated with many Ukrainian and Russian colleagues. Banach's mother was Rusyn or Ukrainian and Banach's father was Polish.

Banach is listed as both Ukrainian and Polish mathematician in at least Ukrainian and Russian wikipedias. The comprehensive List of Ukrainians lists Stefan Banach as one of the eminent Ukrainian mathematicians.

An unbiased source, I'm sure... Deuar 15:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Despite many facts (the origin, place of work and life, contributions to the Ukrainian mathematics) linking Banach to Ukraine, Polish chauvinists systematically vandalise the Stefan Banach entry in the English language Wikipedia. E.g., they erased the mentioning of Banach as both Ukrainian and Polish mathematician, leaving only him being mentioned as Polish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.180.67.179 (talk) 08:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Ah, it's amazing what statements can be obtained by appropriate massaging of facts and terminology. I seem to recall with a tear in my eye that the Soviets used to be good at that too ... Deuar 15:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. Since the problem looks persistent, for the sake of future references, let's make it explicit. Banach worked in the town of Lwów, as it was called at that time by its inhabitants. Not surprising, as it was in Poland then. Further, it was Polish Lwów School of Mathematics; many Jewish-Polish notable members there, AFAIK not a single Ukrainian, though (e.g. did anyone stay in post-war Ukrainian SSR? what language Scottish Book was written in?click here in case you wondered). Banach held chair at the university in the war times Soviet era -- as explained in the article -- and did collaborate with Ukrainian SSR Academia, the latter being a standard cooperation habit for the scientists. None of this makes him Ukrainian. No reliable source identifies him as such (feel free to prove the contrary, but read the definition WP:RS first). --Beaumont (@) 18:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

PS. I suggest you (67.180...) report this act of vandalizing to some admin. Be bold. Maybe this will result in another block, a longer one this time.

It is true that Lviv, Ukraine grew a sizable Polish population during the years of occupation by Nazi Germany and dictator-ruled militaristic and anti-Semitic Poland (1918-1944/45). According to many historical records, the Polish population of Lviv, Ukraine was poor and suffered from various diseases as a consequence of poverty and malnutrition. It is plain ridiculuos to view a temporary presence of these misfortunate Poles on the Ukrainian soil as a justification to any misguided claims of our contemporary Polish partners to any place in the history of Lviv, Ukraine.

If our Polish partners think otherwise, they should be advised to claim themselves a place in the history of London, Paris or any other European city, based on the current European omni-presence of numerous Polish un-skilled laborers, beggars and prostitutes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.180.67.179 (talk) 09:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

What the hey are you rambling about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.120.166 (talk) 00:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

POV pushing by an anonim

The city of Lemberg/Lwow/Lvov/Lviv has changed the countries its belong to during the life of Banach. Most of his life span it belonged to Poland and was named Lwow. OK lets use the modern name Lviv but Ukraine is wrong here. He worked for 20+ years in the institution named Jan Kazimierz University and 2 years in the institution named Ivan Franko University, since it was the same University lets use Lviv University here but Ivan Franco is wrong. There is no references on Banach been ethnical Ukrainian if this is true please provide data. He was a national of Polish second republic by birth. In the case he kept Soviet passport as well we can use two nationality but we need references. The rant about militarist and nationalist Poland does not belong here. In short, anonim, please stop POV pushing and disruptive editing and start to work constructively Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's stop arguing, Banach is European

The wise way to address the controversial claims of our Polish partners to Stefan Banach is to acknowledge his European Ukrainian origins and background. Europe is our common home and Poles should have their say too. Let's stop arguing. As a citizen of Ukrainian Lviv, Banach is both Ukrainian and European.

Let's call him a European mathematician. After all, working in the Ukrainian city occupied by Nazi Germany or dictator-ruled Poland does not make him neither Nazi, nor German. I hope Poles would agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk • contribs)

Nor Ukrainian. We would certainly agree that where he worked has nothing to do with his nationality. Nationality is sometimes a complex concept, agreed, but in this case we have someone who was born in Poland to Polish parents, spoke Polish, and was to be expelled from Soviet Ukraine on the grounds that he was Polish. Doesn't seem to be too much doubt in this case.--Kotniski (talk) 08:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Kotniski, please do not discuss with an individual who uses a highly offensive term (Polack). This guy should be banned immediately. Tymek (talk) 03:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I am interested to know what exactly the IP bases this claim on? Ostap 05:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Babach is a Pole without doubt. But being a Polish mathematician he was not just a Polish mathematician. His career in Soviet Ukraine went quite undisturbed, so he can be an ethnic Pole and a Polish and Ukrainian mathematician. This is like calling Landau a Jewish Physicist simply because he was a Jew.

On a side, note, please don't call the city Lwow in the post-1939 context as this was just an anachronism. 1939 "occupation" is OK, but 1944 is not. Red Army was a Ukrainian army as much as the Russian one and it liberated the country (and Europe) from the Nazi plague. I am sorry if some would have preferred this not to happen and have the cities called Lemberg and Krakau to this day. But it so happened that Lviv became a part of Ukraine, not Russia, Germany or Poland. There is no need to inject stuff in the article about a great scientist. There are enough massacre, occupation and other such dedicated articles that could use some editor's time. --Irpen 05:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The same Red Army liberated hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into Siberia. They were quite visible in Gulag camps after the war. Replacing Nazi plague by a Soviet one isn't liberating.Xx236 (talk) 14:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see how he could be considered a Ukrainian. And the talk of Lviv/Lwow reminds me of a different city... which one was it again? :) Ostap 05:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Did I ever say he was "a Ukrainian"? I don't think I did. There is no doubt that he was a Pole. --Irpen 06:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That's what the IP editor said. Didn't you say he was not just a Polish mathematician? It seems clear he was just a Polish mathematician... Ostap 06:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

He was a Polish mathematician. But also a Ukrainian Mathematician. Or, would you say that Nikolay Fitilyov was not a Ukrainian author just because he was an ethnic Russian? --Irpen 06:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Then shouldn't Ilya Repin also be a Ukrainian painter? Ostap 06:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Repin is listed in Category:Ukrainian painters. --Irpen 07:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The difference with Repin is that he is self-indentified as a Russian. Bogdan ^що? 23:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Lwow, Krakau

Since some demand using the Polihh name of Lviv in the interwar context, I wonder why the same editors did not correct his birth city to Krakau. I made this improvement anyway. --Irpen 07:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

And indeed Lemberg in the prewar context. Anyway, I think most of the unsupported claims about nationality and POV wording have now been removed (as of a couple of minutes ago) - if people start putting them back without any explanation then I guess we'll have to see about getting this page semi-protected.--Kotniski (talk) 15:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not obvious that Kraków was Krakau, see Galicia (Central Europe). Thank your for your improvements, but they seem to be quite POV - bash the Poles any way you can.Xx236 (talk) 14:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Banach origins controversy

Banach was born and spent his childhood in the area populated by Rusyns and Ukrainians. In fact, his last name and the last name of his mother is a very common name among both Rusyns and Ukrainians who lived in this area for millennia.

Banach survived the Nazi occupation of Poland during the Second World war, as well as the cruel interwar regime of the dictator-ruled Poland. Under Pilsudski dictatorship, civilian freedoms were curtailed and minorities of Poland (Ukrainians, Rusyns, Germans and Jews) were oppressed and discriminated against. Many colleagues of Banach, being Jewish, suffered from anti-Semitic discrimination and were denied any chance of gainful employment in Poland ruled by the dictator Pilsudski and his cronies. Other members of minority groups, like Banach, were forced to downplay their ethnic origins and "look Polish".

The modern day resurgence of nationalism and anti-Semitism in Poland led to a controversy surrounding the coverage of the ethnic origins of Banach and other Rusyn and Ukrainian mathematicians in the literature. Decades ago, even Encyclopedia Britannica use to describe Banach as a "Soviet mathematician". Modern-day Polish chauvinists continue the Soviet and Nazi traditions of shameless lies, trying to claim Banach as a "Polish mathematician". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 10:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You have sources for any of this? In particular for Banach or his mother's being Rusyn? Or that the Podhale and Kraków regions were Rusyn-populated? All independent sources identify Banach simply as Polish. If you have reliable information to support your view then we'd love to hear it - otherwise the generally accepted viewpoint must prevail. (Criticisms of the Pilsudski regime may well be valid, but they have nothing to do with this article unless you have evidence that Banach himself had to conceal his ethnicity.)--Kotniski (talk) 10:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

One point to make here: even if the name Banach is indeed Rusyn in origin, and IF you can prove that his mother was Rusyn (and that is a very big "if", that second one), what about the fact that he never knew his mother and was educated by his father's family? And if something were to turn up confirming his father may also be Rusyn, there is one very big problem left: the equation (well, we are talking about a mathematician) "Rusyn=Ukrainian" may apply today in Ukraine, it is an anachronism for Banach and the time he was born. I am fairly sure that the EB said "Soviet mathematician" not because of Rusyn origins (and confusing Rusyn with Russian and Russian with Soviet), but because they thought "Austro-Hungarian/Polish/Soviet mathematician" (they were not thinking "nation-state", of course) was too long. If you can prove that his mother was indeed of Rusyn origin, then that may be added to the article ("Rusyn" and not "Ukrainian").

I am a bit doubtful about using the fact that he was going to leave for Krakow (are we really sure?) or perhaps even the edit on April 6th 2008 (so, not really "in tempore non suspecto") in Russian wikipedia by an anonymous Polish IP (possibly sharing the name of a moderately famous Polish guitarist - I agree that "Ukrainian mathematician" was unappropriate) to not mention the fact that he was for some time also a Soviet mathematician (if we use the logic used at Erika Steinbach he lived in the Soviet Union for almost six years of his life)- though I agree it should be a short mention, more would be contrary to WP:UNDUE.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 15:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I would not personally object in restoring Category Ukrainian mathematicians, after all he was a member of Ukrainian Academy of Science, made a significant effort into establishing the Ukrainian school of mathematics in Lviv, etc. Thus, there are non-trivial connections with the Ukrainian school of mathematics. At any rate he desrves to be listed in Category:Members of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

This last one yes. But not Ukrainian mathematicians. The fact he had connections with Ukraine doesn't make him Ukrainian. (Like Beckham playing for Madrid and LA doesn't make him a Spanish footballer or a US footballer.)--Kotniski (talk) 10:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The quoted source confirms that he was going to leave for Krakow. Xx236 (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian Wikipedia doesn't inform about Banachs. pl:Banach gives several names of Polish citizens, noone of them explicitely Rusyn or born in the South. Xx236 (talk) 10:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics

Stefan Banach participated in creation and advancement of the world-famous school of Ukrainian mathematics at Lviv Ivan Franko National Ukrainian University.

In 1939-1941 and 1944-1945, when Lviv was liberated from the occupation by Nazi Germany and the dictator-ruled Poland (under the oppressive Pilsudski regime), Banach served as a Chair of the Department of Mathematics at Lviv Ivan Franko National Ukrainian University. Banach successfully collaborated with many of his Ukrainian colleagues both in liberated Lviv, Ukraine, and in the capital of Ukrain, Kyiv.

Major Banach books were translated from Polish (that Banach was forced to use during the oppressive Pilsudski dictatorship in the militarist inter-war Poland) and published by Ukrainian scientists - sometimes, first time in a European language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 08:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not see the need to delete this section. He seems to be important in the establishment of the Ukrainian mathematical school, why delete it? Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, once it's been reworded to get rid of the irrelevant political stuff and unsourced cruft, there seems to be nothing here that isn't already mentioned in the main section of the article. And if you think there is, just put it in the appropriate place in the article; there isn't enough content here to justify a separate section. (Oh, and it would be "Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics", without "the", if you can justify keeping this section.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the the. Lets give the guy a chance to develop the section into something useful. It is better to have a law-abiding editor than a guerrilla fighter. Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

All right, let's see what happens.--Kotniski (talk) 09:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't he start with Ukrainian mathematical school?Xx236 (talk) 10:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This article's "Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics" section is redundant, since all the substantive information is already in the final two paragraphs of the article's "Life" section. The "Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics" section should therefore be deleted. Nihil novi (talk) 23:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The section Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics contains important and non-redundant facts on Banach's contributions to Ukrainian science and Ukrainian mathematics in particular. There are substantial plans to continue the work on expanding this particular section, as well as other sections.

The present article obviously deviates from NPOV , it contains numerous instances of statements on Ukraine or Ukrainian SSR "occupying" the city of Lviv. The current version of the article completely ignores the historical background of the anti-democratic dictator-ruled Poland during the criminal dictatorship by Pilsudski and his cronies (1920ies-1939). The article does not even mention that Banach and his colleagues were liberated by Ukrainians from the criminal Pilsudski dictatorship (1939) and then (1944) from the Polish-Nazi regime (1939-1944). The section on contributions to Ukrainian mathematics should definitely be kept and expanded.

Banach and the mathematical school of Lviv, Ukraine are important facts of Ukrainian and Central European history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 07:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It was agreed to leave it in (see archive) to give its author a chance to expand it into something worthwhile, but that doesn't seem to be happening, so I say delete it until an alternative more substantial version is proposed (if that ever happens).--Kotniski (talk) 08:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree unless the author agree to edit cooperatively and produces significant amount referenced material the section should be merged into the Life section of text Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Latest edit warring

To explain in more detail the reasons for some of the reverts:

• Every known source identifies Banach as Polish; he lived and worked as a distinguished Pole in independent interwar Poland. Continually demanding proof of his Polish nationality and Polish citizenship when there is absolutely nothing to suggest anything to the contrary cannot be regarded as good-faith contribution to the article. I would happily get rid of the "citizenship" line from the Infobox in fact, but his nationality is clearly Polish (see many discussions above).
• I don't see the point of including these Ukrainian "works" published long after his death, unless we can have some more information about them. I presume they are simply translations of earlier works published in other languages, and in that case would not be of any particular note.
• Some brief factual background on the political situation in 1944-45 (about a sentence's worth), linked to a more detailed article, to explain Banach's position at that time is hardly POV pushing, just helping the reader of the article to understand what's going on.--Kotniski (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• • The reader of the article will understand the "political situation" and "what's going on" much better if we state that in 1918-1939 Banach lived in a rogue state (so-called "interwar Poland") , ruled by dictators (Pisudski and his cronies), who came to power as a result of a military coup-d'etat, oppressing the ethnic minorities ("pacifikaciya" of Ukrainians, Rusyns, Germans and Jews), threatening the use of military force against its neighbors (Ukraine, Lithuania, Germany, Czechoslovakia) and committing a military aggression against its peaceful neighbors (Ukraine (1918-1920), Lithuania and Czechoslovakia (1938-1939)). The most terrible crime against humanity - Shoah, was committed on a Polish territory (1939-1945) and, largely, by willing Poles. Most Poles gladly collaborated with Nazi Germany. There are more Poles, who fought for Nazis and were taken as prisoners of war by Allies, than those who fought against the Nazis. Even more Polish Nazi collaborators escaped and are still not captured. Why are we omitting these important facts in this article, while re-stating many times that Ukrainians "occupied" Lviv, Ukraine and "re-settled" Poles back home to Poland? Many Banach colleagues, and he himself, suffered from the regime by Pilsudski and his cronies. Some even perished in Shoah, killed by Poles.

We should devote a special section in the article to explain the "political situation" and "what's going on" and stop the pro-Nazi anti-Ukrainian nationalistic POV pushing by Polish chauvinists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Even if any of the above were fact and not opinion, it would still be totally irrelevant to the article on this mathematician. If you are interested in these political matters, why don't you try working (in accordance with WP principles, obviously) on some of the many articles we have on those topics.--Kotniski (talk) 08:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, this is probably WP:BEANS, but even though it does not belong here, I would like to see info on the number of Poles taken prisoner of war by the Allies (and I know Volksdeutsche joined the German army, but I hope you are not thinking of them), and I would like to know what pro-Nazi Poles did to Lithuania. Since you will no longer be able to edit this article, please start referenced articles on those two facts, which were complete mysteries to me. I have been searching the internet, but all I come up with is pages such as this. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 08:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Many Volksdeutsche joined Polish army in the West, later many of them died or were injured.Xx236 (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Article semi-protected

Following a request for assistance at WP:AN I have reviewed the matter and semi protected the article. Although I note that much of the contentious editing is by one ip (and there are other ip contributors) I felt that it would be more difficult to resolve this by issuing a block on an account - which would have to be renewed upon expiry or change of address. All effected ip's can post on this talkpage, unless they violate a WP policy while doing so, with suggestions, etc, for the article. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. There will certainly be people watching this talkpage for suggestions.--Kotniski (talk) 08:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This discussion page is repeatedly archived to hide the arguments opposing the chauvinistic Polish views

There is an on-going systematic effort by User:Nihil_novi and few other extreme Polish nationalist characters to archive the content of the discussion page Talk:Stefan_Banach.

The discussion on this page contains many arguments and references on Ukrainian roots of Stefan Banach and on his contributions to Ukrainian mathematics.

Polish chauvinists attempted to initiate the discussion of the censorship purge of the article on Banach. To create a semblance of a "vote" supporting their censorship, User:Nihil_novi attempt to hide into the archive the discussions of the Banach Ukrainian roots and his contributions to Ukrainian mathematics.

The section Stefan Banach#Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics contains important and non-redundant facts on Banach's contributions to Ukrainian science and Ukrainian mathematics in particular. There are substantial plans to continue the work on expanding this particular section, as well as other sections of Stefan_Banach.

The on-going attempts of Polish extreme nationalist characters to impede the establishment of NPOV on Banach must be stopped! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 00:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

It was not I who originally archived the previous discussions. But I do agree with that decision to archive. I do not agree to 98.210.14.5 having moved my last entries without having consulted me. Nihil novi (talk) 05:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you want to start another (2nd) section titled "Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics" and move your comments there? In my opinion, this would not be a really smart thing to do. But it is still better than the attempts on archiving censorship by User:Nihil_novi and User:Kotniski. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 06:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Stefan Banach was a Polish mathematician. He was born in Kraków. When Banach was born, I think Krakow was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Now it is in Poland. I am interested in the history of mathematics and as far as I know, Banach is regarded as a Polish mathematician. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 06:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Masterpiece2000, thank you for your input, but your POV has already been stated numerous times by certain other editors. There are strong and well-argumented POVs that are in conflict with your POV. See the discussion above. We should try to separate the chauvinistic Polish propaganda from the facts and to arrive to NPOV. Censorship by User:Nihil_novi, User:Kotniski and the likes does not help us, Wikipedians, in that. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 06:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

98.210.14.5, I am not from Poland and I am not trying to push my POV. Stefan Banach is regarded as a Polish mathematician. And, that's not my POV. You can read about him. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 08:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

All that i know about the origins of Banach i've learned from this talk page. I have not become convinced at all that he really was a Ukranian mathematician, but i am almost ready to accept that he was a Polish occupant. --Cokaban (talk) 18:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:DNFT.--Kotniski (talk) 10:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1