Talk:Stav Shaffir

A stable version

Good evening Keith D, I ask your assistance for a stable version since 25 January 2015‎ at 18:18, which has been made by the user Perla749. Almost four years have passed, and it is impossible to claim for irrelevance now. The updated source of Shaffir's speech led to Tablet magazine, and was inserted also by Perla749 on January 28, 2015 at 14:55. It seems to me like a will to make an edit war, and it is better to avoid it. Thank you, Dgw (talk) 18:34, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I have requested user:RaphaelQS to explain reverts here. Keith D (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

It's not relevant to the lead section because it's not a summary of the most important contents of the article but it's a POV presented with undue weight. --RaphaelQS (talk) 07:32, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Good morning Keith D, I did not find here any real reply, because this version lasted for almost four years, and the user did not touch it. The article deals with Shaffir, and her speech was a part of her. The user might not like her speech, but he could not just void it, especially when he did nothing for four years. Four years have very heavy weight. Therefore I ask you to return this text to the lead section. Thank you, Dgw (talk) 08:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Just to note, there is no policy that says the fact that something has been in an article for a certain number of years gives any extra weight to it staying. There is a policy that clearly says the lead section of the article should be an introduction to it and a summary of its most important contents. Melcous (talk) 11:01, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

May be the text could be placed in the body of the article and not in the lead section to avoid the problem of content in the lead which is not in the body of the article. Keith D (talk) 12:00, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Keith. It is possible to place it in another place, instead of kicking it out after so many years. If Melcous thought it did not have not to be there, why did not she move it? I removed the word "viral" for making it more neutral, and got this unwanted result. You may not remove a text of four years without a prior discussion. If I support slavery (I don't), will I remove a leading content from Abraham Lincoln: "Lincoln led the nation through the Civil War, its bloodiest war and its greatest moral, constitutional, and political crisis. In doing so, he preserved the Union, abolished slavery, strengthened the federal government, and modernized the economy"? It is definately not WP:NPOV. Dgw (talk) 12:24, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Keith, please return the original text which lasted almost four years. My editing is void:

A video of Shaffir's 21 January 2015, Knesset speech went viral. In it, she attacks Israel's right wing politicians, saying, "Don't preach to us about Zionism, because real Zionism means dividing the budget equally among all the citizens of the country. Real Zionism is taking care of the weak. Real Zionism is solidarity, not only in battle but in everyday life."<ref>{{cite news|last=Rosenberg|first=Yair|title =Watch the Knesset Speech That Shows How Israel’s Left Can Win|url=http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188538/watch-the-knesset-speech-that-shows-how-israels-left-can-win|newspaper= [[Tablet (magazine)|Tablet magazine]]|date=26 January 2015}}</ref>

Thank you, Dgw (talk) 12:34, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Good morning Keith D. The user is editing around, and does not participate this discussion. Therefore I reverted to the last stable version, with the text used by Perla749, as I had written yesterday at 12:34 p.m. (almost 24 hours have passed).

A prior consensus has to be reached in this talk page before doing additional changes of stable versions. It is also wriiten in the source of the article about Donald Trump:

<!-- NOTE: Changes to the lead are regularly discussed on the talk page. PLEASE DO NOT EDIT WAR. If you make a change that is reverted, please open a discussion or contribute to an existing one, per [[WP:BRD]]. Consensus items marked DO NOT CHANGE require prior discussion. -->

Ignoring it, may result my application to warn the appropriate user, or alternatively apply for locking the article to administrators' edits, like Trump's article. Dgw (talk) 11:08, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Good afternoon Keith D, two good edits were reverted. The reverter was quite kind to state WP:AGF, but two good edits were voided, although no word was written here. The first good edit was joining two identical sources to one source. The second good edit was returning a dead link which was corrected, and now it was dead again. In this way, it was impossible to solve the issues which the template stated. Thank you for your time, Dgw (talk) 14:23, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

The meaning of Shaffir's given name

Good evening Keith D,
As I have already written, repeated reverts give no motivation to improve Shaffir's article.
The last revert erased the origin of Shaffir's first name. As it is written in the article, she was born at spring (17 May). Why was she called "Stav" (autumn) and not "Aviv" (spring)?
May we look at Marie Thérèse of France? We would find it: "She was named after her maternal grandmother, the reigning Empress Maria Theresa of Austria. Her second name, Charlotte, was for her mother's favourite sister, Maria Carolina of Austria, queen consort of Naples and Sicily, who was known as Charlotte in the family."
This example is enough, and I would not look for additional examples, although I am sure there are.
The question of Shaffir's first name has already discussed in the Hebrew Wikipedia. the user IKhitron, who is an admin, raised it. An additional user – David Shay, who is also admin, agreed with IKhitron. A third user, whose name is Liad Malone, agreed with both of them. The users who disagreed, were supporters of Benjamin Netanyahu and were scared that stating Shaffir's Iraqi origin would lose votes for Netanyahu.
The stated reasons for the reverting were not accepted:
1. Yossi Huri is a singer since 1960, and has article in Hebrew, which says: "The daughter of his nephew is the Knesset Member Stav Shaffir, who received her name from the song "Migrating Birds" (in which the refrain begins with the words "It was with the coming of autumn"), performed by the duo." For removing any doubt, it is written also in the Hebrew article about Shaffir, as I have already written in my edit summary.
2. The page in Facebook is Huri's official page.
3. Kan 11 channel in YouTube is also official. There is no issue about the content which has been uploaded by Kan 11 itself.
Therefore, the three reasons for the hasty revert are voidable. Dgw (talk) 16:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

This is how English wikipedia works, and you need to stop assuming that there is one editor here who you can appeal to about everything and instead learn to interact with the rest of us to reach consensus. What happens on the Hebrew wikipedia is completely separate and has no bearing on what we do here, our policies may in fact be quite different about some things. It does not matter if a facebook page is official, it is a not an acceptable source here - see WP:UGC; youtube is similar. It is also not helpful to compare this article to Marie Thérèse of France. For starters, there the discussion is about names being linked to other notable people, whereas here you are wanting to insert content about what a name means and why it was given, which is not the same thing. Also see WP:OSE. Melcous (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

RFC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the first name of Stav Shaffir be explained as "autumn", because Yossi Huri, a well known Israeli singer since 1960, sang a song with the word "stav" (autumn) to her father, who was his nephew? Dgw (talk) 21:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Comment It was poorly worded, but I think the information should be included (although definitely not in the introduction). Perhaps something like "Her name (the Hebrew word for autumn) was taken from Wandering bird, a song that her father's uncle (Yossi Huri) used to sing to him. Number 57 11:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Comment: There is a secondary and reliable source to "Wandering Birds" with the name of the duo ("Haparvarim", The Suburbs) and Huri's photo. The refrain is:

"It was with the Autumn coming,

He loved her so much,

She was as beautiful as in the songs,

Like the Autumn of the birds."

An additional secondary reliable source is Maariv: Huri said that he sang songs of Farid al-Atrash in Baghdad (and disliked it, because he was shy), was sprayed with DDT when arrived at Ben Gurion Airport in 1951, learned in the French School in Yaffo, liked to photograph galaxies (it was mentioned in the Hebrew Wikipedia) and in the end said clearly: "Doris, my bigger sister, is Stav Shaffir's grandmother". Dgw (talk) 09:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. This was discussed in the Hebrew Wikipedia and rejected [1]. Stav is an extremely common name in Hebrew, the sourcing here is trivial, it is not covered in actual secondary sources - so this is WP:UNDUE. I will note that on the Hebrew Wikipedia (yes, different procedures, independent, etc.) attempts were also made to introduce detailed ethnicity of parents and grandparents (in a manner not covered in secondary sources). Icewhiz (talk) 17:10, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Stav's name has been given by her parents. It is impossible to claim a "neutral" source in this case. She was born at spring, but had this name due to the song in question. Do you claim the story was fake? You may find the song itself. Would be the song a reliable secondary source? Is the famous singer Huri a reliable secondary source? If Huri is an uncle of her father, has he never babysit him? What will he do while babysitting? Practicing songs. Because you pointed the Hebrew Wikipedia, I would state that the both articles in Hebrew, Stav Shaffir and Yossi Huri, stated it. Dgw (talk) 23:21, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

  As a random observation - children are named Stav in Hebrew regardless of the time of year they were born or conceived in. The same applies to Aviv (Or Avivit) for spring (Summer and winter do not have a given name). WP:SECONDARY coverage of this factoid is not present - we do have this mentioned in a primary interview. Icewhiz (talk) 11:46, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

  It was said in the interview with Stav Shaffir, which was broadcast by Kan 11, was uploaded to YouTube by Kan 11 and was removed from Shaffir's article by an unclear reasoning. Here is the reasoning for YouTube links: "While there is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites [...] Many videos hosted on YouTube or similar sites do not meet the standards for inclusion in External links sections, and copyright is of particular concern. Many YouTube videos of newscasts, shows or other content of interest to Wikipedia visitors are copyright violations and should not be linked, either in the article or in citations." Dgw (talk) 12:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is trivial as is the sourcing. Melcous (talk) 01:16, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

  So it seems that the objection is due to lack of notability, by the user's opinion, is not it? Dgw (talk) 12:53, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

• Neutral - If there's a source for the Huri thing, I guess it would be OK to mention the "Autumn" thing in context. That said, it seems pretty trivial. NickCT (talk) 03:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: On December 26, 2018, the 20th Knesset was dissolved. Shaffir played the piano and asked Israelis to join her party for voting her in the primary election. Her moves and style resemble Huri. Dgw (talk) 21:01, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Shaffir's party affiliation

@Number 57: Shaffir has announced that the Green Party will not run with Democratic Union in the upcoming election, shouldn't that be noted somehow? Nevermore27 (talk) 04:52, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

On the Democratic Union (Israel) page The Green Party is listed as a former member of the electoral alliance Nevermore27 (talk) 04:54, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it's more relevant to be noted on the Green Party/Democratic Union page than here. Also, I think it's more correct to say that as it stands, the party will not not part of the Democratic Union for the upcoming elections. However, it remains part of the Democratic Union Knesset faction in the meantime.

Additionally, at the moment this seems to be just politicking for Shaffir to get a higher spot on the alliance's list – there is still plenty of horse trading to be done prior to the elections ("If they smarten up and go for unity in the left-wing camp - we will come with open arms") and I would be somewhat surprised if the Greens really did end up running alone as they have no chance of crossing the electoral threshold. Number 57 11:23, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Number 57: Even as a member of the Dem. Union alliance however, she's still a member and leader of the Green Party. Nevermore27 (talk) 22:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I've added mention of it to the lead. Unsurprisingly, it now seems the Green Party won't run alone. Number 57 23:43, 4 January 2020 (UTC)