Talk:Stath Melani

Inconsistencies

I wonder how can someone be "murdered" at 1917, as the article claims, but next year (1918) he traveled from USA to Albania to assist the national movement: [[1]].Alexikoua (talk) 16:56, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Another inconsistency is that according to this (http://www.shekulli.com.al/37603/ doesn't meet wp:HISTRS by the way) he was murder by "Albanian filo-greks" near Premet. No wonder during 1917-1918 the region was not under Greek control, so Greek gendarmes couldn't have him murdered.Alexikoua (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I wonder what makes a travelling journalist wp:rs in wikipedia. This counts especially when someone is banned in democratic countries due to endless nationalist activity [[2]]. The editor that restored this kind of 'historical' produced article may have some explanation for this.Alexikoua (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

The journalist works in a democratic country, i.e Albania. In the article it says "The Greek Foreign ministry was not reachable for a comment on Monday.". It was never elaborated why it banned the journalist apart from viewing him security threat which without other explanation is vague at best. The article also does not state it was due to nationalist activities which you seem to infer. What it does state though that he was doing news stories on the Chams, a sensitive matter in Greece.Resnjari (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Excatly as you said ... the journalist. There is nothing in wikipedia that makes tabloid journalism wp:rs. In fact there is a specific policy and such cases should be dealt with heavy precaution. In this case not only we have nothing close to academic & secondary, but just a product of a journalism thats popular among some nationalists that watch Albanian tv. You need to follow wp:rs and HISTRS and banned journalists do not belong here. Thus its up to you to prove that this person meets rs criteria else he is not part of this encyclopedia.Alexikoua (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

That is not what you were refering to before. Moreover, what constitutes as "tabloid journalism" in this' instance? What is your source/evidence to state that it has been determined as such? Wikipedia does not disqualify usage of news sources provided they meet the requirements of guidelines or other> WP:NEWSORG. On academic & secondary, the policy does note that "News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content". The onus is on you to show that it is not factual and the the news outlet in Albania does not meet requirements. So far you have not provided anything that shows Mema is a nationalist or a minor journalist in Albania, the reason given by you for deletion [3], yet alone something on the news outlet.Resnjari (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

The four times Mema article is cited in the article is relating to Melani's activates in a Ceta, the year and time of his death (not the perpetrators which i guess is the controversial part for non-Albanian editors) and in relation to the person who killed Melani that later was killed by another individual (the ceta and last bit is important outlines events related to Melani). How is this tabloid journalism ?Resnjari (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

That's yet another reason for removal: for being non sospecialist to the subject. Apart from being accused for spreading propaganda and banned for this reason, the same journalist is accused for sympathizing Islamic terrorism and ISIS [[4]] [[5]]. In general there is no rule in wikipedia that makes someone rs especially about history because he is simply.... a journalist. Even if he has good intention in a specific article as you may claim. For history articles we have wp:HISTRS and this reference doesnt meet the minimum requirements. Alexikoua (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok, i read the Greek articles. Both say that Mema was working on a documentary on the historical Albanian presence (similar to Balkaninsight) in the Preveza area which the articles refer to as nationalist propaganda. It also says that Mema in one of his other reports talked to an imam who some years previously had prayed for fighters heading to Syria, which the article refers to as jihadists although Mema regretted the encounter with the imam thereafter. How did you get the conclusion that Mema is sympathizing with Islamic terrorism and ISIS, when even the article does not mention them? The Balkaninsight article on the other had states that "Mema, who was travelling to Greece with two friends for a short vacation, is only the latest in a number of Albanian citizens who have been denied entry into Greece for apparently political reasons." His disqualification from Greece was for political reasons. So two different views. Lets hear from others on this first. Mema after all is cited for non-contriversial matters relating to Melani's life.Resnjari (talk) 17:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Editors need to be cautious in citing the work of nationalist public figures originating from Balkan countries, including politicians or journalists. We have run into the same issue in the past, where editors have tried to cite the work of nationalist journalists from Croatia, Kosovo, Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia on sensitive articles, from Nazi regime in Croatia and the Srebrenica genocide, to the Macedonia Question. Certainly we do not need more of this. Don't we have another, better source that can confirm the historic person's death date? --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 18:10, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I doubt that a guy who devoted part of his career to glorifying (yes I am aware of the issue on that) an Orthodox Albanian national hero supports ISIS (lol). But I can see how one could think he has an anti-Greek patriotic slant. Sadly a lot of scholars in the Balkans are uhh "patriotic" and he's one of the more overt ones. I'd probably get flack from the more nationalist Albanian editors (if they weren't mostly all banned, lol) for using Psomas on Albanian articles since he advocated giving the Sarande-Gjirokaster area to Greece in the temporal context, which is of course irredentism. But both are able to accurately report historical facts like the year someone died.

It's also true that when I first came to it, this article had some POV, with peacock and the word "patriot" everywhere. An article about a guy that was murdered by a (Vlach) Greek nationalist also can start to accrue anti-Greek POV if we aren't careful, but I've tried my best to keep it out. For example I chose to omit the details of how he was killed, as it's a small article and I don't want it taking up a large percent of the page.

SilentResident the 1917 death date is basically in about half of the citations on the page, not just Mema, so any of them can be used to cite that, not just Mema. Similarly the stuff about his cheta shows up in many different sources. I think KTrimi told Vanja he had planned to work more on this article so he may have more sources on hand (or may not).

Also SR/Alexikoua I hope you didn't misunderstand and think on Western Europe I'm trying to exclude Greece there or anything. My view there is actually that Greece should be maintained in certain sections (economy, politics, not linguistics) and there should be better sourcing there rather than editors POVs. Sometimes I think my motives get misunderstood thanks to paranoid (esp Balkan) Wiki environment, and I know I myself can mistake peoples' motives so I wanted to explain that so I just wanted to make sure you understood that. Sorry that was long. --Kalinthos (talk) 19:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

What do we do here then. Mema is cited alongside other sources which are scholarly for the same thing. Remove or keep then? On Melani's death, we have a strong source, the Pontificio Istituto orientale one. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:21, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Keep and add. Mema is reliable for his death. He just peppers his prose with patriotism, like many others. We can add the other one. Unless I misunderstand, this issue seems resolved. --Kalinthos (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok on my part, but the other two were not in agreement. Maybe to allay concerns we remove Mema as a citation for the death part (we have the Pontificio Istituto orientale source which is very strong) and only leave Mema for ceta and church activity ?Resnjari (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Sure. --Kalinthos (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

The year of Melani's death is contested among sources as I've stated on top: one inline claims '17, another '18 and another one '12 (Mema is reliable for death on that? I don't think so, still not the slightest argument presented for that). About Mema, let me sum up all available evidence of this "supposed" RS: 1. the author is officially declared "persona non grata" for spreading propaganda in Greek-Albanian issues especially in historical matters, 2. Supporter of sympathizers that preached for the Jdichad-fighters in Syria, 3. a journalist without the slightest academic background, 4. famous in Albania TV due to his nationalist background. Needless to say that that this is the epitomy of non-RS. So far there are zero argument in favor of him being RS and included as reference. It's sad that no-newbies can't understand some basics about RS and HISRS.Alexikoua (talk) 07:13, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Speaking of sourcing I have yet to see any RS that says that Mema is a personal supporter of "Jdichad-fighters" or anything along those lines. "Without the slightest academic background" also. Seeing as outright racists like Cassavetes (a self-admitted propagandist who said "Albanian savages" lacked "civilization" and went on an offtopic rant about "Arabs" and "Abyssinians", real cosmopolitan) have been used elsewhere by yourself, the sudden RS lecturing about Mema is a bit surprising, but to be fair everyone makes mistakes :). The death year isn't really unknown as the only two works to dispute it don't cover him as their topic-- pretty much all the Albanian sources and some Western sources agree he died in 1917 rather than two Western publications that aren't about the man and only cover him cursorily. And I thought we had agreed to replace the cite for his death year with the Pontificio source? In fact looking at the page it is already there as well as another source (Bezati) supporting the 1917 death. If it means anything, I'm removing the excessive cite with Mema in it right now. --Kalinthos (talk) 07:50, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I still fail to see the sligthest argument that makes Mema rs. And no wonder none can find something to link him with something close to academic: not even inlines, no bibliography mentioned in his article etc.. Being a journalist and especially someone that sympathizes Jichad supporters (see antenna.gr link, by the way antenna.gr isn't banned in the same fashion as Mema).Alexikoua (talk) 08:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

@Alexikoua. All the Greek articles note about Mema's "jihadi" connections is that he talked to a imam who three years previous had prayed for fighters going to Syria and regretted later that he did so. The Greek articles do not state that he belongs to ISIS or other. The Balkaninsight article notes he was banned for going into Greece for "political reasons" (see English language article by Balkaninsight). An Albanian news article by Nacionalalbania giving a profile about Mema and who he is says that he has been against Anti-Albanian extremism and much of his work as a journalist has covered sensitive issues like minorities relating to Greece [6]. That news outlet is also not banned. I may have been swayed by your previous comments had you not placed your own opinion about ISIS connections (which the Greek articles do not mention) or the journalist being a nationalist (accused by Greek news outlets of only producing nationalist propaganda) as conflicting viewpoints are given on the journalist, -with a reputable English English news website (Balkaninsight) saying he was deemed a security threat by Greece for political reasons. Not sure if we might need a third opinion on this at the reliable sources noticeboards for additional advice. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

This is a post from Marin Memas official Facebook site: https://www.facebook.com/398978473473902/photos/a.399006910137725.86044.398978473473902/583838008321280/?type=3&theater It literaly says "The true and truly holy religion is love for ones homeland, respect it's his rights and freedoms". Does this look like the post of a "jihadi" who BTW comes from a mixed religious background? We have to keep things serious here. Vargmali (talk) 18:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

About Stathi's death, the perpetrators of the event are noted to be Greek guerilla bands etc. On date however if we remove the news outlet sources, which all refer to 1917 as the date of death, we are left with the Pontificio Istituto orientale source which is closest in terms of Western scholarly publication when Melani's death occurred and gives a firm date and Tarasar's date of 1918 (only a year, not a date or month). So far i have not reflected on this, but i'll put this out there with thoughts from others.Resnjari (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Apart from the filogrek perpetrators, non-newspaper inlines are in complete contradiction to each other: Pepa: [[7]] states about 1912 and Tarasar, Constance J. about 1918. News outlets are the least preferred option and should be avoided in our case per HISTRS, especially when they lack a decent academic background and are written in biased tone without slightest citation (obviously Mema isn't the only case that fits in this).Alexikoua (talk) 15:02, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Translation: filogrek = Hellenophile. We might need a third opinion to resolve this. Melani was a real person and his death is due to Greek bands opposing his activities. That part is in agreement on all the sources whether news outlet or not that refer to that event.Resnjari (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

There is a biography published about Father Stath Melani some years ago: Kapedan At Stath Melani me shokë. [8], [9] (1997) by Apostol Kotani and would solve a lot of issues here if someone has access to it.Resnjari (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Being real doesn't necessary mean being notable, although additional material may emerge. There is also the concept that if the perpetrators were filogrek (if we believe the available reference) this doesn't necessary make them ethnic-Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 15:54, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

The term Hellenophile or filogrek is used in the news outlet sources. The academic sources state Greek bands. About the notability of Melani, that could be said of many articles about Greek figures etc. Nonetheless Melani's activities however were of notice to earn the ire of some in the Orthodox church leadership such as Greek metropolitans to be then targeted by Greek bands (Kristo Negovani is another example, whose death by Greek bands basically kickstarted a more widespread Albanian nationalism outlined in Clayer's article). Other editors are going through sources looking for content, its a new article after all.Resnjari (talk) 16:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if someone can explain why S.M was alive in 1943 according to this "rs" of an unidentified publisher: [[10]]. Was it another WWII person of the same name maybe?Alexikoua (talk) 16:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Further in page discusses a WW2 battalion being named after Melani, in addition to a small amount of info on his life.Resnjari (talk) 16:56, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I have completely lost track of what the original topic was here. That Melani is notable is completely unquestionable, the guy has been given the same sorts of posthumous awards by the Albanian government as other "national heroes" such as Migjeni, the Frasheri bros, Grameno, Butka etc... it's mentioned in some of the sources, actually it's the title of one, that he got an award, it just hasn't been added to the article yet. As for when he died there also seems to be a consensus among sources that actually discuss Melani as their topic that it was in December 1917. Actually the man who killed him wasn't a Greek-speaker, he was a Vlach, Josif Sorripulli (at least that's what Albanians call him, in Greek it was probably something like Iosif Sorripoulos as he may have preferred, no idea what it was in Vlach). But what mattered at least the way the sources discuss it is that he did it for the cause of Greece. Resnjari one of the sources actually is by the same Apostol Kotani who wrote the book on the man, and I believe he also said 1917. --Kalinthos (talk) 17:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Kalinthos, I kind of have the same view. Its to do with the news outlet sources and who the journalists are. To get Kotani, i would have to look for a copy and request it through document delivery from an international library to my uni library which would take months. If anyone is in Albania, Kosovo or visit other libraries and it has a copy of the book, have a read and make a few edits. Going by the history revision page, Ktrimi has access to some books, so yeah maybe he can add more if there is to add from them. There is this Turkish academic source that cites Melani. p. 77 about being responsible for financial affairs of the Patriarchate [11], "Fener Patrikhanesi'nin malî işlerinden sorumlu Arnavut asıllı Naum Vitkuki ve Stathi Melani, Pandeli Sotiri gibi papazlarda Panhelenist papazlar tarafından zehirlendi." Melani was a figure of significance in the Orthodox church. We can add this, sometime in the week. Doing other edits.Resnjari (talk) 18:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

@Vargmali: interesting isn't it, we have a part-Orthodox dude who glorifies Stath Melani and Jani Vreto but also has "Jdichadi" connections? Hmm one of these things doesn't seem to fit with the other :). Resnjari çok güzel that's great for the article. --Kalinthos (talk) 18:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Kalinthos, transcribing it is a bit. Still a lot more easier than the Cyrillic i've been doing for other articles. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Logic tells us to use the simplest explanation, which is that he has no real "Jdichadi" connections. Considering also that what he wrote is also in line with other sources this "controversy" should end here. Also Stath Melani has even roads and schools in Albania named after him, saying he is no "Important figure" makes no real sense. Vargmali (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Vargmali We need more sources over time from books. More better for the article and kind of eliminates issues. Just a thought, but I wonder if there is something on the Albanian Orthodox website (in the form of documents etc) considering Father Melani was a trailblazer and advocate for a independent Albanian church.Resnjari (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Sources

Kalinthos Vargmali Resnjari Alexikoua Hi guys, I will add some content to the article based on Apostol Kotani and Marenglen Verli whose books are the most important studies on Melani's life. After I finish with the addition of stuff, should some of the old sources (Mema and others that are not published books) stay? The books can serve as sources to the whole content in the article, hence the removal of sources that are not books can prevent certain editors from deleting parts of the article they do not like and justifying it with "unreliable source" arguments. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:41, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 make the additions, and then we can work out what's left that needs refinement. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 I agree with Resnjari-- the article should bulk first, then cut, so to speak. Also your access to good Albanian sources on him is a boon to us all-- thanks for that. Ping me if you want once the expansion period is done, and I'll let you know what I think should be trimmed. --Calthinus (talk) 17:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Calthinus Resnjari Vargmali Alexikoua Read my comment above. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:54, 10 December 2017 (UTC)