Talk:St Crispin's Day Speech

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Shakespeare not copyrighted

No, I don't think Shakespeare's plays are copyrighted. But thanks for asking. Septimus.stevens (talk) 21:30, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Shakespeare's works are *definitely* not copyrighted, I don't believe any jurisdiction in the world extends copyright for more than 100 years while Shakespeare died more than 400 years ago. TorontoGavin (talk) 15:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did the real Henry V gave a speech like this?

I always wondered if the real Henry V gave a motivational speech before the battle or if he said something to his troops before the battle. I guess that the speech in the play of Shakespear is fictional, but before the battle, did the real Henry V said something inspiring/motivational to his men? ––– — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.26.43 (talk) 01:16, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've wondered this myself. The Battle of Agincourt was amazing in many ways -- not least in that Henry V's amazing victory soon became irrelevant! ... Especially after the deeds of the peasant girl from Domremy village -- Joan of Arc. Septimus.stevens (talk) 13:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Over on the Battle of Agincourt page, there's a paragraph that states: "Henry made a speech emphasising the justness of his cause, and reminding his army of previous great defeats the kings of England had inflicted on the French. The Burgundian sources have him concluding the speech by telling his men that the French had boasted that they would cut off two fingers from the right hand of every archer, so that he could never draw a longbow again." The cited reference is to "Barker, Juliet (2005). Agincourt: The King, the Campaign, the Battle (U.S. Title: Agincourt: Henry V and the Battle That Made England.). London: Little, Brown. ISBN 978-0-316-72648-1." PublicolaMinor (talk) 23:04, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good article!

I think some Wiki readers may appreciate being able to find the St. Crispin speech. If some "boilerplate" is needed to make the article "encyclopedic" I hope someone will add it.

Thus, I've removed the deletion notice.Septimus.stevens (talk) 15:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Expand 'influence' section?

Besides the text of the speech itself, this article really needs more content in the "Influence on Popular Culture" section at the end. The introduction mentions the speeches made in Braveheart and Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, but that aspect should be discussed more fully at the bottom of the page as well. I'm going to try to rearrange and expand it a bit, probably drawing on material from the Battle of Agincourt page, but I'd appreciate any help I get. PublicolaMinor (talk) 23:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the text should be removed. References to WIkiSource should be sufficient. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 03:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Imho, it is not encyclopedic to reproduce excessively large quotations, whether copyright or not. @PublicolaMinor, the "influence" section is outrageously indulgent, raising allusions which are mostly of very little relevance to the subject (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, indeed!!) If required at all, the section should be headed "Cultural influence" and limited to serious and demonstrably relevant allusions, verified by citations. Bjenks (talk) 05:56, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Missing

Haven't any Shakespeare or Literature scholars said anything about this speech, ever? The pop-cult section appears large, but that's because it's the only section. When was it written, what was it inspired by, did people like it, what makes it great (or not), etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:44, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: You may be able to find a few, I should think. :) --Xover (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now that's an interesting tool. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural influence

Nikkimaria and anyone interested, I made a cut in this section.[1] Is there anything else you feel we should get rid of? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article has changed topic

It used to be about Shakespeare's speech, now it's about Henry V's speech. I am no expert on either, but IMO the topic should be Shakespeare's speech, but mention that it was inspired by an actual speech, IF that is what sources say. Comments, Xover, Wikimandia, anyone interested? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:00, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: The article has always been about the speech in Shakespeare. Its focus was changed by Wikimandia in this edit (which, it should be noted, was otherwise excellent!) on 14 August. My suggestion would be to tweak the first lede sentence to refocus it on Shakespeare's speech, but that the historical background probably belongs somewhere in the first lede paragraph. If the article were expanded beyond the excessive quote + pop culture trivia that currently dominates, it would probably start with a "Historical background" section covering the historical speech and its context before diving into the speech in Shakespeare and its afterlife. --Xover (talk) 04:00, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We can put a historical background section in the article, hopefully there are some sources that speculate on what S knew about HV. It would also reduce the execssiveness of the quote and the Cultural influence. At least the long quote is safely out of copyright. C (talk) 07:28, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Xover Agreed, this is about the Shakespeare speech and not some hypothetical speech Henry V might have given about which there is no contemporaneous account. TorontoGavin (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Buffy Reference

Perhaps worth a note. From Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season 5, episode 22: The Gift.

Buffy: [to Willow] Stay close but don't crowd her. We'll follow in a minute. [to the rest of the gang] Hey, everybody knows their jobs. Remember, the ritual starts - we all die. And I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn. [leaves]

Spike: Well, not exactly the St Crispin's Day speech, was it?

Giles: We few. We happy few.

Spike: We band of buggered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.242.44 (talk) 20:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Buffy is noted in the article. I like that quote, btw. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 23:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Darkest hour

Familywriter, hello! The imdb-page you cited [2] doesn't mention the speech, neither does the trivia page. See also WP:IMDB, it's basically not a source that should be used for this on WP. What is needed is a WP:RS that noticed that the film used the speech, and bothered to write something about it. Afaict, it's not Crispin in the subway-scene (found it on youtube), it's Thomas_Babington_Macaulay#Literary_works. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect Summary - no reference to historic victories

I recently looked up this page to get the text of the speech to rehearse for a monologue.

I was shocked to see right in the first paragraph this *clearly false* statement: "Henry V urges his men, who were vastly outnumbered by the French, to recall how the English had previously inflicted great defeats upon the French." The text appears in the next section and any reader can easily see there are ZERO REFERENCES to past victories of the English over the French, not one.

The current description is simply wrong, he did NOT urge his men to recall previous defeats they had inflicted.

He urged his men to consider the honor they would win in this battle (and this battle only), if they were to defeat the French while so outnumbered.

The current description attributes the main purpose of the speech as something literally not touched upon in the speech at all. It was not about remembering past victories, not one single prior battle or victory received one single mention.

I'll wait for comments before I change that obviously false claim in the article. TorontoGavin (talk) 15:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since I'm not deeply familiar with the source material I'll ping Xover instead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, @TorontoGavin: Apologies for being so lame about noticing my pings. It kinda got lost in the flow.

The facet at issue was added by Wikimandia in this edit in 2018 while expanding the lede. I don't have access to the article in The Telegraph to which the expansion is cited, but I believe it may be misleading. The "St Crispin's Day Speech" itself definitely does not refer to any previous battles (neither Q1, Q2, or F1 versions); it contains only exhortations to bravery for the imminent one.

That being said, however, the more fundamental problem is that the lede as it stands is a bit schizophrenic: the second sentence refers to the actual historical speech by Henry V of England before the Battle of Agincourt, but the whole rest of the article concerns the speech Shakespeare wrote for Prince Hal in Henry V. I've never had cause to research the historical speech (I'm not even sure it survives in any of the six-ish contemporary accounts, much less with what detail and accuracy), but it does seem likely that Henry V of England would reference previous victories against the French there. It is Shakespeare's speech that is innovative in its approach; the actual King Henry's fame is based on the military prowess at Agincourt, not his speechmaking (although he was apparently no slouch in that department either).

In any case, a bit of copyediting should take care of both issues. Xover (talk) 08:32, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, @Xover It "seems likely" Henry V would have done so but there are - to my knowledge - exactly zero historical accounts of any actual motivational speech that the real Henry V gave prior to the battle. The St Crispin's Day Speech is the one written by Shakespeare, not what we might guess or imagine about what the real Henry V said that morning. No references to prior victories, just the invention of some prior editor. I'm not sure it's just copyediting, it's removing a clearly false claim. Sorry for my poor wikipedia talk skills. TorontoGavin (talk) 20:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TorontoGavin, I did this [3] edit, is it better? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:51, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

'The Date'

Nowhere in this article does it mention that St Crispin's Day is October 25th. I had to look eleswhere on Wikipedia to find this out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.149.4 (talk) 11:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind if you add this, say like "which fell on Saint Crispin's Day (25 October)", but I don't really see the point either, it doesn't add anything relevant to this article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:50, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]