Talk:Shoshin

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rjames22.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

ref for ... and Japanese martial arts.

Hello - the ref is for "... and Japanese martial arts." and in French -. Maybe you find it in English too. Best--Maxim Pouska (talk) 11:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by RoySmith (talk) 12:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Shoshin is a Zen Buddhist term that means having a "beginner's mind"? Source: https://www.kinfolk.com/word-shoshin/ Quote: "Meaning: For Zen Buddhists, the word shoshin (which in secular parlance means “innocence” or “inexperience”) refers to a beginner’s mind"
  • ALT1: ... that Shoshin is a Zen Buddhist term that means having a "beginner's mind", even when doing things that one is already an expert in? Source: https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-cultivate-shoshin-or-a-beginners-mind Quote: "The Japanese Zen term shoshin translates as ‘beginner’s mind’...Many historical examples demonstrate how the expert mind (or feeling like an expert) can lead to closed-mindedness and the obstruction of scientific progress."
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Bill Renwick

5x expanded by Aoidh (talk). Self-nominated at 01:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC).

• Article has 5x expansion within 7 days. Written well and cited. Earwig shows a passage that is paraphrase too closely to the sources. See here. Can this be masssaged? Hook is short enough, interesting, and supported by in-line citation. QPQ is done. Cbl62 (talk) 05:10, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• @Cbl62: That specific matching wording has been in the Shoshin article since the article was created from a redirect in January 2007, it wasn't part of my rewrite. Earwig says it closely matches three articles. According to the source code of the first page it matches that page was written on "2022-09-19T05:12:55" and the second page, a Medium article was written in 2018. The third page ShoshinTech is trickier, but the December 2006 version of the website (which has no about page at that time) makes no mention of the meaning of Shoshin. It is only in May 2007 after the Shoshin article includes that text can the wording be found on that company website, indicating that they searched for Shoshin when making their "About Us" page, found the Wikipedia article, and copied the text into their page. It seems like Earwig is matching these websites because they copied the Wikipedia article, rather than the other way around, which is evidenced by the fact that they all share the wording that matches how it was phrased at various times of the Wikipedia article's history. The article originally called it a "concept" and the older website reflects that; the article then removed nyuanshin and changed "concept" to "word" and the newer websites reflect that. I can change it if you still have an issue with it but I don't think it's a paraphrase of any source and it's a good summation of the concept for the lede as written, which is why I left it intact when expanding the article. - Aoidh (talk) 05:57, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Cbl62 (talk) 21:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm more of a fan of the ALT1 DYK, but perhaps with a different source? I couldn't find anything about the reliability of Psyche/AEON on WP:RSP but a "how to" article, especially as the source for the definition of Shoshin, kind of rubs me the wrong way. That may just be me though! JungleEntity (talk) 23:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Shoshin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 21:21, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I may use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Links

Prose

Lede

• studying a subject - studying has to be on a subject, so no need for "a subject". Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• The practice of shoshin acts as a counter to the hubris and closed-mindedness often associated with thinking that oneself is an expert[2] which includes the Einstellung effect, where a person becomes so accustomed to a certain way of doing things that they do not consider or acknowledge new ideas or approaches.[ - this is a very long sentence Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• The phrase "beginner's mind" is a translation of the word shoshin - the first sentence already says this. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• The lede doesn't seem to mention anything other than what it is. Nothing about how it was founded, where it is practiced, how it is learned. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

General

• Did nothing happen at all from 1300-1970? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• Noh, Japanese playwright Zeami in 1424[11][10 - there is some missing punctuation in here somewhere. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• Shoshin wasuru bekarazu (or sometimes variously Shoshin wo wasuru bekarazu[10]) is a Japanese proverb about shoshin coined by the founder of Noh, Japanese playwright Zeami in 1424[11][10] which is typically translated into English as some variation of "never forget the beginner's mind"[12][13] or "never forget your original intent"[10] and persists as a common proverb amongst practitioners of Budō[13] and in Japanese business and entrepreneurship. - this is somehow all one sentence. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• It is also used or proposed as a way of general living[23] or a way to approach specific fields of life including social work,[24] medical care,[25] teaching,[26] computer programming,[27] gardening,[28] sports,[29] and dealing with chronic diseases such as phenylketonuria - by who? I feel like we need to know more about what people are using this for gardening. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• Like the lede, the body doesn't seem to cover quite a lot of information that we'd need for WP:BROAD. It certainly doesn't cover anything about it being taught, nor about anyone critically describing it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Review meta comments

• I'll begin the review as soon as I can! If you fancy returning the favour, I have a list of nominations for review at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these if you get time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:21, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: I know this is bad timing but I’m in the hospital and will be for a few days. The medicine they have me on, along with the fact that I only have my phone means making anything more than very simple edits isn’t feasible right now. I’m not even sure I can handle the formatting and rewording issues above because the medicine makes it hard to focus, so addressing the BROAD issue is out of the question I’m afraid, at least for the next few days. I don’t know if that means this needs to be failed and I can work on it later, and I’m sorry this was bad timing, but I saw the message on my talk page and wanted to let you know what was going on. - Aoidh (talk) 12:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Aoidh, of course. Health is much more important than Wikipedia. My suggestion (if it's ok with you), would be to fail this right now (as the changes aren't going to happen), but with the previso that when you have made the changes I'm happy to take a look and complete a second GAN (drop me a ping). All of the above notes will be live as always to check through. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:50, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes let’s do that then, and once I’m able to I’ll look into filling out the history and other sections Aoidh (talk) 23:48, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Japanese bias

As it stands, this page has a heavy bias towards Japan, despite the precise term in question originating in China. Before being used in a Buddhist context, the term meant 'original intention' and was then likely used to translate a Sanskrit term, at least as early as Chinese translations of the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra. Unfortunately this Japanese bias is very common on wikipedia - partly a result of a general bias towards Japanese Buddhism in English language sources - but if this page is going to be nominated then more work should be done to correct it here. Retinalsummer (talk) 01:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

@Retinalsummer: Can you provide specifics or sources, because as written this complaint of bias is too vague for me to address. Do you have these Chinese sources? Can you at least state what the Chinese term even is? Why not make the improvements yourself? I would be more than happy to expand the article with additional information, but I'd have to know what that information at least is before I could do so. - Aoidh (talk) 14:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

The Chinese term is chūxīn 初心. See the entry for 初心 in the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism for the claim about Chinese translations of the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra. At the moment, the article lacks sources that provide a scholarly overview of the concept, which is probably where a lot of the problems are coming from (the only works cited in the "History" section are popular articles and translations of Japanese primary sources). Making the improvements myself would require me to look for scholarly sources and then read them, which I don't really have the time for at the moment. My comment above was not a complaint, I was merely pointing out to other editors an issue I saw with the article. Retinalsummer (talk) 16:19, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

@Retinalsummer: I apologize if my use of the word complaint was objectionable, I am used to using the term in a more legal setting where the word complaint has a more formal and neutral meaning where something is objectionable or otherwise not up to standard and requires addressing. I didn't consider any usage that implied a negative meaning and that absolutely was not my intention. Thank you for letting me know what the word is in Chinese; given that Dōgen appears to be the one who introduced or popularized its usage in Japan it absolutely tracks that it's a term borrowed from China. I'll look into that at some point and see what I can find, and if you come across any sources I'd be happy to take a look at them as well. - Aoidh (talk) 20:32, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Change lede

The article starts with a long introduction on Buddhism, that not only is not useful at all, but it is also wrong (zen is Mahayana, not Theravada). I think the beginning should be deleted: "In Buddhism, Zen, or Zen Buddhism, is a branch of Theravada Buddhism that began to develop in the 5th century in mainland China. From mainland China, Zen became established as a sect and spread to Korea, Japan, and elsewhere. The various branches of this lineage are collectively known as Zen Buddhism, and the Buddhist religion of this lineage is known as Zen Buddhism." The article should begin right after that, with the subject of the article, i.e., shoshin. Nazroon (talk) 23:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

@Nazroon: I've reverted that, which was added recently but is not how articles should begin per MOS:LEDE. - Aoidh (talk) 00:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)