Talk:Shopska salad

Biased agenda.

User:Maxwell1999, pushing the name of a country founded 30 years ago is obviously biased agenda and far from neutrality. Jingiby (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

User:Maxwell1999, what the wp:unreliable source you have added says: Shopska salad is the prelude to every Macedonian dish...Shopska salad is common throughout the Balkans, Russian, and former Soviet countries. Nothing is mentioned about it is North Macedonia's most famous dish and even a national salad as it is in the text of the article now. Keep in mind that academic and peer-reviewed sources publications are the most reliable sources. Not all newspapers, sites and magazines can be considered reliable even though they may have credible sources. Please check: Wikipedia and fact-checking. Jingiby (talk) 16:42, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Stefan Dechev

How the historian Stefan Dechev who is cited in Dining in Utopia: A Taste of the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast under Socialism by Mary Neuburger describes the development of the Shopska Salad in Detchev, Stefan. 2010. “Shopska salata: Kak se razhda edin natsionalen kulinaren simvol” [The shopska salad: How a national cultural symbol was born]. In Vtŭrsene na Bŭlgarskoto: Mrezhi na nationalna intimnost (XIX–XXI vek) [In search of Bulgarianness: Networks of national intimacy], ed. Stefan Detchev, 411–63. Sofia: Institut za izsledvane na izkustvo: For the first time we encounter the term "Shopska salad (lyutenitsa)" in a cookbook from 1940. Apparently, the dish is so "traditional" that it is practically a recipe for lutenitsa and has nothing to do with the "Shopska salad" we have known for years. From 1956, a salad similar to today's "Shopska salad" began to be found, but in a version without cheese (!). It is composed of roasted peeled and finely chopped capia peppers, red tomatoes and one cucumber cut into small cubes, a small roasted peeled peeled and chopped chili pepper, onion thinly sliced and slightly crushed, parsley finely chopped, oil and vinegar. The recipe does not mention the signature sprinkling of white brine cheese on the salad at all. The situation is approximately the same with the "Shopska salad" in a cookbook from 1960, without specifying the ratio between small and large peppers this time. In some versions of this period, in the preparation of the still apparently uncodified and devoid of grated cheese, "Shopska salad", not roasted, but raw capia peppers are found, and finely chopped roasted hot peppers are placed only "optionally". You can't go without "Shopska salad" with "red onion", and in other cases we even find radishes. In the seminal book "Bulgarian National Cuisine" from 1978, the recipe for "Shop salad" was placed among recently invented regional salads, but it was definitely already sprinkled with cheese. In an effort to search for the authenticity of the salad and to convincingly associate it with the Shopi, and not with the cooks of "Balkantourist", in the re-edited edition of the book from 1983 we already meet the "shop salad", presented as having been invented in the village of Busmantsi near Sofia. Along with this, apparently in the late 1970s and the immediate beginning of the 1980s, the "Shopska salad" already seems to be a firmly codified product, and the discrepancies in the recipes are visibly decreasing. The real penetration of the salad among the public took place in the 70s, and its mass confirmation - in the 80s. The conclusion that this is a copy of the Greek Salad is not correct in this case. It has its own development in time= Jingiby (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

reversions

Jingiby, the idea that because everything in the Balkans is disputed is completely irrelevant and doesn't mean we don't mention it about this salad.

Re: this edit, I reject the source that says "From Bulgaria, the recipe spread to the cuisine of neighboring countries." That source is an opinion piece, without even a byline, which starts out:

The other day, a stupid Serbian newspaper announced the Shopska salad a Serbian invention that the Bulgarians have appropriated. This is not a reliable source as far as I can tell.

Re: the infobox. We cannot say the salad was invented in Bulgaria and support it using the personal reminiscences of the person who claims to have invented it there.

Your edits around the Balkans are starting to feel like they really need to be discussed by the community. Valereee (talk) 12:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello. To be honest, the "origin dispute" section is POV and should be removed. The sources do not demonstrate that there is a origin dispute between any countries and they all rely on the claim of one Serbian newspaper (or one Croatian restaurant as is the case with the Deutsche Welle source), as well as reading like opinion pieces. So, it's definitely undue.

As for the infobox, I agree. The infobox needs to follow the body and if something is not in wikivoice in the body, then it can't be the other way around in the infobox. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Valereee. I am sorry, but I didn't have time last night to go through the sources carefully, for which I apologize, but today I am making the following clarifications. You're right about the first source. I will suggest better sources point by point that confirm the same information you dispute. According to a publication in the Bulgarian edition of Deutsche Welle, which reprints an article from the Austrian newspaper Der Standard with author Karla Engelhard from December 01, 2015 under the title How "Balkantourist" invented the Shopska salad, the following is recorded: "Historian Stefan Dechev, who is a great lover of Shopska salad, dug into the archives - and learned the following: "It's a myth that this is a traditional salad. But it is not a myth that it is a Bulgarian salad. Shopska salad is an invention of the Bulgarian state tourism company "Balkantourist" and is the work of professional chefs," says Dechev. The salad was "invented" in the 1950s, and the goal was to offer tourists a purely Bulgarian product, directly from " the vegetable garden of Europe", as they called Bulgaria at the time... Shopska salad quickly spread to all countries of the then Eastern Bloc - in some places it was offered with cheese, in others - without. "Personally, I got to know and loved it with cheese", says the author of reports Karla Engelhard, who grew up in the former GDR." That is, according to this relatively reliable source, the salad was really invented in Bulgaria and spread from there abroad. Jingiby (talk) 12:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

On the infobox. The claim that the Shopska salad was invented in the Chernomorets restaurant in the Druzhba resort is currently referenced in the article with a reliable source from Sofia University "St. Kliment Ohridski", "Anthropology of Food", by Bistra Stoimenova, called "Is the Shopska salad really Shopska - or about the fluidity of Balkan cuisine", Sofia, 2017. I want to emphasize that inside this publication, the author has quoted Doychev from the book "Socialist gourmet or the curious history of the cuisine in the People's Republic of Bulgaria" by Albena Shkodrova (pp. 260-261). This book has also been published in English in a revised edition under the name "Communist Gourmet. The Curious Story of Food in the People's Republic of Bulgaria" issued by the Central European University Press in 2021. The author claims that the cuisines of the Balkans are very intertwined and the idea of this salad probably came from Turkey through the Choban salad or from Greece through some local salad, but it has its own path of development in Bulgaria. How do you evaluate these sources in view of the current version of the text? Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 14:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Multiple sources -- including that opinion piece you were including and at least two others -- mention this as a salad being claimed by national cuisines other than Bulgaria. That is an origins/ownership dispute. This is very typical of gastronationalistic claims about foods. The fact we can find someone saying it's definitely a Bulgarian salad as if there was no one disagreeing with that. If there are academics or other experts claiming a dish for different cuisines, we mention it. Further, the article as you keep reverting it to includes a section discussing other cuisines claiming it. "Even Croatia" is claiming it -- which is obviously us saying in Wikivoice, "See how ridiculous all these people are being, claiming our salad." You seem to simply not want to call this an origins dispute. Valereee (talk) 16:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

StephenMacky, what are you seeing as a POV issue about the fact there is an ongoing origin dispute over this dish? It's verifiable that the salad is claimed by multiple cuisines. Valereee (talk) 16:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Valereee, there is not a single credible academic source that insists this salad have originated in North Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia, etc. These are domestic Balkan baseless nationalist claims. I think StephenMacky is right here, although this mumbo jumbo is still mentioned in the article. Otherwise, yes, there are sources that suggest that in some form the idea about such salad came either from Turkey or from Greece, but this is mentioned in the article too. Jingiby (talk) 16:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't actually matter that RS aren't saying it originated somewhere else. They're saying it's disputed. That is the point. Valereee (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any proof that it is seriously disputed. I already mentioned in what context it is disputed by others. It seems like a nationalist dispute to me. If there are scholarly sources which confirm that it is disputed by other national cuisines, feel free to include them here.

The DW source claims that it was disputed by one Croatian restaurant.

The BNR source claims that it was disputed by one Serbian newspaper. It also includes the opinion of a Serbian restaurant owner, who called it Bulgarian.

I'd like Jingiby to confirm if the whole quote in Talk:Shopska salad#Hystory of the salad is present in the original edition of Shkodrova's source. This is all I could find in the revised edition of the source: There are well-documented examples of central efforts to encourage national identity. Sometimes “typical” recipes were invented, the most prominently researched example is the case of Shopska salad. This summer staple, which many believed originated from the Shopluk (the rural area around Sofia), was in fact single-handedly invented by a chef in the kitchens of the state tourist company Balkantourist. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course it's a nationalist dispute. All such disputes are nationalist in nature. That doesn't mean the disputes aren't worth mentioning. Valereee (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is the Sofia News Agency discussing the dispute: https://www.novinite.com/articles/106713/Serbian+Publication%3A+Shopska+Salad+Is+Not+Bulgarian Valereee (talk) 17:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The DW source is discussing the dispute. The BNR source is discussing the dispute. It literally doesn't matter if someone here on WP thinks it's a silly nationalist dispute. We report what sources are saying, and both of these sources are mentioning the dispute. Valereee (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Citation from the article in the Sofia News Agency: The (Serbian newspaper) article uses the definition of the salad by the Serbian Wikipedia page... Jingiby (talk) 17:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't matter whether the dispute is nationalistic in nature. RS, including the Sofia News Agency, are discussing the dispute. Of course it's nationalistic. All such disputes are nationalistic and often silly. This one IMO is silly...who cares if it's Bulgarian or Serbian or Macedonian or Croatian rather than Balkan? Nationalists, that's who cares. Valereee (talk) 17:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It's still unlike other food origin disputes. For example, the origin of the french fries is disputed between academics of two countries (France and Belgium), as well as on a diplomatic level, which doesn't appear to be the case here. Here it appears that only a minority of people dispute it. Nationalists dispute a lot of things, but we don't include them all, especially if their views are fringe. If it was notable, it'd be included in Gastronationalism. StephenMacky1 (talk) 17:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Here I agree with StephenMacky1. Jingiby (talk) 17:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It's really not different at all. Check Gastronationalism. It's very common. Valereee (talk) 17:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Very well. Then we should ensure that the summary is true to the sources. I recommend the following summary:

From Bulgaria, the recipe spread to the cuisine of neighboring countries. In the 2000s, the Serbian newspaper Politika disputed the Bulgarian origin of the salad. According to the Bulgarian edition of Deutsche Welle, one Croatian restaurant claimed the salad as a Croatian national dish.

I also recommend the removal of the Nomad Paradise as it is the weakest source in the article, while the Sofia News Agency source can be added. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:02, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Nomad Paradise can hardly be accepted as a source, and of course should be removed, but the Macedonian Wikipedia is more interesting. There is written that the early Slavic tribe called Shopi used to make this salad. To claim that there were tomatoes on the Balkans in the early Middle Ages borders on stupidity. Jingiby (talk) 14:48, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what the Macedonian article says, but FWIW it doesn't claim there were tomatoes in the Balkans that early? It seems to claim only that the salad is named after the tribe. Valereee (talk) 14:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@StephenMacky1, I think it's a good idea to start discussing specific edits. I'll open a new section to make discussion and navigation easier. Valereee (talk) 14:56, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Valereee, the story is different. There is a hypothesis the ethnographic group called Shopi are descendants of the Thracian tribe Sapaeans. In fact, a Slavic tribe with such name never existed. Jingiby (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Still irrelevant here. Please let's not get tangled up in what other wikipedias are saying. It simply does not matter even a little. Valereee (talk) 15:06, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, @StephenMacky1, somehow missed that you'd said If it was notable, it'd be included in Gastronationalism, lol...I actually wrote that article, and it's quite likely I'll add this to it once I've identified enough sources and we've agreed here on language. :D That article is a bit of a work in progress as these types of disputes are ones I stumble over regularly, as I spend much of my time on food articles and the issue just keeps coming up. Valereee (talk) 16:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Specific edits

From Bulgaria, the recipe spread to the cuisine of neighboring countries.

StephenMacky1 has suggested:

From Bulgaria, the recipe spread to the cuisine of neighboring countries.

I'd be willing to go with According to the Bulgarian edition of Deutsche Welle, the Balkantourist recipe spread from Bulgaria to the cuisine of neighboring countries. I think the statement is fine as long as we attribute. Valereee (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I am fine with this sentence. Jingiby (talk) 15:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Valereee (talk) 15:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

In the 2000s, the Serbian newspaper Politika disputed the Bulgarian origin of the salad. According to the Bulgarian edition of Deutsche Welle, one Croatian restaurant claimed the salad as a Croatian national dish.

My suggestion: Deutsche Welle noted a restaurant in Croatia claimed the salad as a Croatian national dish. According to Radio Bulgaria, a newspaper in Serbia claimed the salad as Serbian rather than Bulgarian, Macedonian or Czech.

StephenMacky1, where did you get the 2000s and Politika? I think that's worth including but I couldn't find the source. Valereee (talk) 15:38, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

From the Sofia News Agency source and I presume that the other sources are referring to Politika too, even though they didn't name the newspaper. They reported about it during the 2000s. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Got it, thanks! Okay, so:

Deutsche Welle noted a restaurant in Croatia claimed the salad as a Croatian national dish. According to Radio Bulgaria and the Sofia News Agency, Serbian newspaper Politika in the 2000s claimed the salad as Serbian rather than Bulgarian, Macedonian or Czech. Valereee (talk) 15:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I am fine with this proposal. Jingiby (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Valereee (talk) 16:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

[Although] the salad was promoted primarily on the Black Sea coast, because its name refers to the area of Shopluk -- which is divided among Bulgaria, Serbia and North Macedonia -- after the breakup of Yugoslavia chefs [in those areas] began to contest the Bulgarian origin of the salad.

This is sourced to the radio bulgaria source but I'm not sure I'm finding it there. I don't actually dispute that this may be what happened, but do we have a better source? Valereee (talk) 16:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

It fails verification. There are no opinions of chefs from Serbia and North Macedonia in the source, while Shopluk is already mentioned in the previous section. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm wondering if this was mentioned in another source and perhaps throughout the various editing history, somehow a source got lost or was placed incorrectly. As Jingiby has edited this article more than anyone and is probably most likely to be familiar with the sources, I'm hoping they can remember where it might have come from. Valereee (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Here at the Dir.bg news site, I find the following news:

They invented the Shopluk's brand. Shopska salad is a common brand for the area where the borders of Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria meet and a reason for cooperation and exchange of experience for the revitalization of rural areas from the three countries.

The people of Kriva Palanka (in North Macedonia), together with their neighbors from Serbia and Bulgaria, have chosen this region because they believe that it can be a recognizable global brand following the example of the Shop salad that comes from these parts, writes the Macedonian newspaper "Vreme", quoted by BGNES. "This is a project of the three countries and we wanted to achieve something that would be recognizable to them and that is precisely the Shop salad. You can find Shopska salad in any country, but it is important to know that it comes from this region, that's where the quality ingredients of the salad come from - the cheese and the vegetables", says Kire Dejanovski, the Macedonian coordinator of the Shopska salad project . "Our plan is in the village of Zhidilovo, which is close to the Bulgarian border, to make a Shop village, which will have all the symbols of the Macedonian tradition, customs, agricultural production, and when tourists come, they will see Macedonia in one place." says Dejanovski. Jingiby (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

So I'm reading this as something along the lines of:

In the 2000s, the (Shop?) region, which includes parts of Bulgaria, Serbia, and Macedonia and is a producer of the ingredients for the salad, was recognized as a regional multi-country brand marketable to tourists.

That could maybe go into the history and background section? Valereee (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

This is simply the result of the lack of knowledge about the history of the salad or the so-called pseudohistorical myth. Jingiby (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, not sure what you're saying.

1. The assertion: [Although] the salad was promoted primarily on the Black Sea coast, because its name refers to the area of Shopluk -- which is divided among Bulgaria, Serbia and North Macedonia -- after the breakup of Yugoslavia chefs [in those areas] began to contest the Bulgarian origin of the salad does not seem to be supported by a source. We need to remove it unless we have a source, and the source you've provided doesn't seem to provide support. Are you okay with removing it?
2. The source you provided seems to me to support adding In the 2000s, the (Shop?) region, which includes parts of Bulgaria, Serbia, and Macedonia and is a producer of the ingredients for the salad, was recognized as a regional multi-country brand marketable to tourists in the background and history section. Are you okay with that? Valereee (talk) 17:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not true. Shopluk region has a cold mountain climate and tomatoes and cucumbers do not grow there. This is simply a layman's statement. Jingiby (talk) 17:37, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Really, you may delete the sentence under question, although its content is correct. Jingiby (talk) 17:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

We could tag it as unsourced, if you believe the content is correct? Valereee (talk) 17:50, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The Balkan nationalisms are the reason. This divided border area called Shopluk which name borrows the salad is disputed too, and despite the salad was invented on the Black sea coast, its name related to a disputed area, claimed by the 3 countries, is the problem. Jingiby (talk) 18:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Wait, rewind, isn't Sofia in that general region? So in the country's capital and largest city, you can't grow tomatoes or cucumbers? It looks like Sofia is hardiness zone 7, so that should allow for growing tomatoes. And cucumbers grow in zones 4-12, so Sofia should be able to grow cucumbers easily. Valereee (talk) 19:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

After the climate changes, especially of the last 30 years, tomatoes can be grown, but not for industrial purposes. There are much more suitable areas for this purpose in the broader region. Otherwise, the record low temperature in Bulgaria was measured in this area. It took place in Tran, and the temperature was −38.3 °C (−36.9 °F). My grandmother was from there, and when I was a child remember the summers. They were really cool, and even sometimes there was frost in late August and in September. The tomatoes they grew in my grandmother's backyard garden, if they ripened at all, were of desperately poor quality. This is confirmed in an article on Actualno.com, a Bulgarian news site. The article is titled What is the the history of Shopska Salad? The text is as follows: The name of the Shopska salad originates from the Shopluk region, located in Bulgaria and Serbia. The question remains unclear as to why the history of the name of the Shopska salad is related with this region, since it is not known for growing vegetables, on the contrary - it is mountainous and growing the tomatoes and cucumbers needed for the Shopska salad is an almost impossible task. Probably, the reason for using the name of this region is different and not related to growing vegetables, but it is a fact that it is Shopluk that gives the name of the beloved Shopska salad. Jingiby (talk) 06:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, got it. Thanks, that's very interesting. Wow, the article on Tran needs work, no sources at all... Valereee (talk) 12:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

References

reversion May 6 2024

Hey, TzCher, the sources you've added to revert this are a little iffy. I've removed one that appears to be a blog; the other two are similarly iffy. The one independent reliable source, Detrez, says the salad is "alleged" to be traditional, uses scare quotes around "invented", and notes Serbia objecting to Bulgaria requesting protected geographical indication from the European Union. The other two are not independent; they're attributed to the person who claims to have done the inventing. I'm not sure we can use any of these to specify the exact place of origin. I've compromised on not including that in the lede, and I'm willing to compromise on simply not including a place of origin in the infobox.Valereee (talk) 16:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Detrez is correct - the salad is alleged to be a traditional salad by gastronationalists in Serbia, North Macedonia and Western Bulgaria, in the region of Shopluk. The salad is not, in fact, traditional, it was created as he and the rest of the sources describe. The quotes he uses around the word invented are not scare quotes, they're there because the word invented is generally not used in English for a salad, because it's not an invention. I am not willing to compromise on removing factual statements from the infobox, such as the place of origin. There are multiple sources which confirm that the salad was created by Balkantourist. If someone somewhere is disputing that, by all means, add that to the article. But sourced, factual content should not be removed simply because someone is disputing it, incredibly unreliably, I might add. TzCher (talk) 16:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I offer as additional reliable source an article in the Bulgarian Deutsche Welle, different from the one currently used in the article. The author Georgi Angelov is a Bulgarian translator from French and a long-time journalist. According to him, the Shopska salad of "Balkantourist" was established in 1954-55 in the restaurant "Chernomorets" in the resort "St. St. Constantine and Elena". Jingiby (talk) 16:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)