Talk:Scoville scale

Related scales for other spices?

Is there any related scales for the heat of say Black pepper(piper nigra), Tasmanian pepper(Tasmannia sp.), Vietnamese mint or Berberis?

thai green chilies ?

I noticed Thai green chilies listed at above 500,000 scoville units. I see no mention anywhere else verifying this claim.

It was changed recently - if you can find evidence of the correct name then please do change it! njh 10:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I've tried these, and they're brutal, from my experience they are more hot than the Habanero peppers at my local grovery store. --User:Aja-Oki

I've tried 1,000,000 scoville and after the 2nd time you dont have slight problems with your circulatory system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.32.189.67 (talk) 02:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Internal Inconsistency

The article states "15 Scoville units is equivalent to one part capsaicin per million." Logically, the maximum value on the scale can then only be 15 * 1 million parts per million = 15.000.000 SCU, no 16 million as the list states. I could only find sources that agree with the 15 * 1 ppm figure, thus I assume the 16 million value is just a marketing gag of Blair Lazard (16 mio reserve). If nobody objects, I'll change the value in the list. --Matthias Bauer 18:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and have changed it. njh 22:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

As to 16,000,000 vs 15,000,000 and other difficulties with the Scoville scale that should be possibly mentioned

(Lots of thoughts to consider)...

The Scoville heat unit scale is outdated, objective and shouldn't be encouraged as being the way to determine heat in peppers. The official American Spice Trade Association (ASTA) method for determining heat of peppers is the HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromotography) HPLC determines the amount of capsaicin in parts per million and then this is somehow converted to SHUs. Unfortunately, I have as yet to find how one converts ppm to SHUs if someone can find that source, this fact should be noted as soon as that determination is found.

I have been told by several hot sauce manufacturers that the numbers SHUs cited as being in their hot sauces are pure approximations, because the cost of performing the HPCL is too dear. Hearsay, yes, but if we can get a verifiable source to cite, it would be useful.

Also, SHU tests as well as HPLCs require a base control in order to be reliable. I am having difficulty finding reliable sources for the details of what HPLC testing companies use to determine their ppms. Most of what is on the internet is redundant repetitions of the same false information.

Also, giving specific peppers specific SHUs is dangerous since no two peppers even on the same bush will consistently have the same level of SHUs and these amounts need to be determined in ranges. The idea that a specific type of pepper is going to automatically score a minimum level of SHUs is faulty, because any pepper is capable of not developing capsaicin and some species of habanero have been cultivated specifically because they have no capsaicin.

Another difficulty with SHU tests is that they cannot decipher between the different capsaicinoids. There are five.

According to an article at http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1996/0596DE.html --- Scott Harris, technical service manager for Cal Compack Foods, Santa Ana, CA is quoted as saying "The coefficient of error is 50% for the Scoville method and less than 12% for the HPLC method" -- if this quote is verifiable (verified) I think this fact should be mentioned.

"Verifiable" means that there is a reputable source, not that we have determined the truth of the source, see WP:V. In this case, I think we can use the quote and let the reader judge reputability of the source. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/hplc.html This site cites ASTA analytical methods in determining capsaicin levels, but it's too technical for me to decipher as accurate. It determines capsaicin standard as 15,000,000. It seems to me that ASTA determines that actual value as 15,000,000.

I don't know where Blair Lazar got the count for 16,000,000 but although Guinness accepts that this is the hottest sauce commercially available, there is no mention anywhere on their website that they agree to the "16,000,000" count.

Given that ASTA is the worlds' authority in the spice world I'm inclined to lean on their 15,000,000 and to question the 16,000,000 as the maximum rating on Dave's Gourmet.

http://www.lib.iastate.edu:81/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=1Y411832466FN.44508&profile=parks&source=~!horizon&view=items&uri=full=3100001~!1063526~!1&ri=1&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ipp=20&spp=20&staffonly=&term=capsaicin&index=.GW&uindex=&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ri=1 This link speaks to the determination of capsaicin in capiscums, but it's another member only database.

I believe that AOAC International also uses the HPCL as the determinate for capsaicin in capsicum, I haven't found details yet... they're here: http://www.aoac.org/

More to come...

Tina Brooks 03:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Good luck. I will not sleep happily until this is settled... ;) --njh 06:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the article, 15 units is equal to one part per million, this would have to mean that 15,000,000 is the maximum possible rating, would it not? --user:Aja-Oki

If you can do math, then 15 is the maximum... If anyone knows how to add a citation, here is a reputable source for the Asta method I mentioned previously... http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/hplc.html Hopefully there will soon be others and we'll stop seeing bad math??? Tina Brooks 21:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/feature_ent.html?id=b90b964c5ade11d7e3d26ed9fe800100 Tina Brooks 21:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

15,000,000 and 16,000,000 are indistinguishable

It seems obvious that this question is meaningless; the measurement processes are too imprecise. It appears that by convention, when the HPLC method is used, the capsaicin concentration in parts per million is multiplied by 15. This is described in the Food Product Design article mentioned above [1]: "The HPLC measures the capsaicinoid(s) in ppm, which can then be converted to Scoville units using a conversion factor of 15, 20 or 30 depending on the capsaicinoid." These round numbers clearly suggest that this is just a rough equivalence. Similarly, the reference, http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/hplc.html noted above uses the word "assume," i.e. pure capsaicin is "assumed" to be 15,000,000 units.

The Food Product Design article quotes a technical person as saying "The coefficient of error is 50% for the Scoville method and less than 12% for the HPLC method." Obviously this means that nobody can possibly know whether pure capsaican is "really" 15,000,000 or 16,000,000 on the original organoleptic Scoville scale. In fact, it sounds as if it could easily be anywhere from 10,000,000 to 20,000,000.

Furthermore, even the HPLC method is said to have a 12% error. It's not clear whether that means plus-or-minus 12% or plus-or-minus 6%, but in any case the difference between 15,000,000 and 16,000,000 is only 6.66%.

Too bad Scoville didn't propose a logarithmic scale. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The Scoville method accuracy can be improved arbitrarily by performing the test with multiple participants. 50% of inaccuracy of a single test is not a problem if you average the results and compute the standard deviation with 10,000 participants. 83.14.232.226 (talk) 11:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Red Savina Habanero (TM)

I don't know how to do it, but Red Savina Habanero requires the TM symbol. Per the US Trademark database: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=5a67l5.2.1 Tina Brooks 21:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Schmidt Sting Pain Index

See also: Schmidt Sting Pain Index to compare the overall pain of insect stings

How is this relevant? It's a scale?--I hope that's not the extent of it. -Tedpennings 09:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It's pain too :) Seriously, I agree it's not relevant -- 12.116.162.162 17:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Parking unsourced entries here until sources can be provided

Well, these been tagged as unsourced for some time now and no sources have been provied. I'm removing them from the article and parking them here. They can be reinserted when source citations are provided. In case anyone isn't familiar with Wikipedia's verifiability policy, which is linked at the bottom of every edit box, in brief it states that 1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

I have little doubt that most of this information has in fact been published, but before putting it into an article it is necessary to include the published source from which it was obtained. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

P. S. In cases where the item has a Wikipedia article which gives a Scoville rating, it is still necessary to find where that article got its Scoville rating and copy the reference here into this article, as Wikipedia articles are not acceptable references for other articles (WP:RS). Dpbsmith (talk) 00:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

1. This is the only interesting bit of this article. Stop being a complete loner and put it back.#

Well, please help me find source(s). The policy says "The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material." I will be looking for sources myself, as I have elsewhere in this article. I suspect most of this material can be sourced, but it shouldn't go back into the article until it is.

A lot of commercial websites, e.g. http://www.thescarms.com/hotstuff/HotSauces.htm have a lot of this, but it's not clear where they got it from—I suspect they've copied it from each other—I don't think they really qualify as reliable sources, and copying large amounts of material, particularly from a commercial website, raises copyright problems. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Police grade is not 5 mill. Most agencies operate around 1 mill. The tough ones are considered two mill. Trust me I was sprayed with BodyGuard LE-1O (rated at 2 million) about 6 hours ago for training and certification to carry OC spray. I did a bit of research and between our instructors telling us so and about 10 companies that sell LE-10 that claim it to be one of the strongest I'm pretty sure police grade doesnt go much higher. There may be 5 mill pepper sprays out there, but you'll be hard pressed to find a police agency that approves their use, thus shouldnt the cap be brought down, because if the police dont use it, it's obviously not police grade...  ? Thoughts ? thekingbeav 09:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Scoville rating	Type of pepper
7,100,000	"The Source" hot sauce‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
5,300,000	Police grade Pepper spray ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
2,000,000	Common pepper spray or Pepper Bomb‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
350,000 - 580,000	Red Savina habanero‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100,000 - 350,000	Habanero chile‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100,000 - 325,000	Scotch bonnet‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100,000 - 225,000	African birdseye (aka "African Devil", "Piri-Piri")‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100,000 - 200,000	Jamaican hot pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100,000 - 125,000	Carolina cayenne pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
95,000 - 110,000	Bahamian pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
85,000 - 115,000	Tabiche pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
50,000 - 100,000	Chiltepin pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
50,000 - 100,000	Rocoto‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
40,000 - 58,000	Pequin pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
40,000 - 50,000	Super chile pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
40,000 - 50,000	Santaka pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
30,000 - 50,000	Cayenne pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
30,000 - 50,000	Tabasco pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
15,000 - 30,000	de Arbol pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
12,000 - 30,000	Manzano pepper, Ají‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
5,000 - 23,000	Serrano pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
5,000 - 10,000	Hot wax pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
5,000 - 10,000	Chipotle‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
2,500 - 8,000	Jalapeño‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
2,500 - 8,000	Santaka pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
2,500 - 5,000	Guajilla pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
2,500	Tabasco Sauce‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
1,500 - 2,500	Rocotilla pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
1,000 - 2,000	Pasilla pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
1,000 - 2,000	Ancho pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
1,000 - 2,000	Poblano pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
700 - 1,000	Coronado pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
500 - 2,500	Anaheim pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
500 - 1,000	New Mexico pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
500 - 700	Santa Fe Grande pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100 - 500	Pepperoncini pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
100 - 500	Pimento‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›
0	Bell pepper‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›

I have now reinstated the table as it is the most important content on this page. The {{Fact}} tags indicate the need for references. Better spend your time on finding those references in the scientific literature... :-) Cacycle 08:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The verifiability policy is perfectly clear: "3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it." Those fact tags have been there for a very long line. I did spend some time trying to find a good reference for some of these items, and I've put in a few. If you want the others in the article, you need to find some references. There's no requirement that the references be from the scientific literature; I'm perfectly happy with the Guinness Records website, for example; but they do need to meet the reliable source guidelines.

Since a source is cited for the Dorset Naga value, I've put it back. I've removed the claim that it's the world's hottest pepper, although the cited source does make that claim; I'm just quoting the reported Scoville value and let the reader draw his or her own conclusions.

I've removed the material on "Disputed, unverified or erroneous claims of SHU values:

855,000 Naga Jolokia pepper

900,000/923,000 Dorset Naga."

In the case of the Dorset Naga, if we are to say it is disputed, we need to say who disputes it (and cite a reference). In the case of the Naga Jolokia pepper, no reference is given either for its Scoville value, or for that value being disputted or erroneous. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Scoville units are imprecise ???

The article's sentence "Scoville units are imprecise" is itself imprecise and should be replaced by a precise statement of what is imprecise. The modern Scoville unit *per se* is not imprecise at all. t is defined by 1 Scoville unit = 1 part of capsaicinoids per 15 million, and it is now determined precisely by a chemical test called high performance liquid chromatography -- and these facts appear in the article. (Except for a mild error: the article says "1 part of capsaicin per 15 million" where it should say "capsaicinoids" in place of "capsaicin". This should be corrected.)

What is imprecise should be made precise: It is mentioned that the original "organoleptic" test is subjective and therefore imprecise, but the sentence "Scoville units are imprecise" doesn't make clear what version of "Scoville units" it refers to. And what is implied but not stated explicitlly is that using the liquid chromatography method, what is imprecise is the assignment of a fixed number of Scoville units to a given variety of capsicum. (And this rarely happens; in almost all such tables, one finds a *range* of Scoville units assigned to a given variety.) Daqu 15:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, the article says that the results of HPLC can vary by plus-or-minus 12%, which is not what I would call "precise." And, the HPLC test does _not_ yield "Scoville units." Scoville units are by definition the results of the organoleptic test. The HPLC test yields ASTA pungency units, which are then given a rough equivalent in Scoville units. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  • and as result, the organoleptic test, being based on subjective impressions, is subjective. It can be performed to a certain sigma, on a statistically significant number of participants, improving its precision arbitrarily, but it will always carry some statistical uncertainty.83.14.232.226 (talk) 11:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

A few additions and citations here and there. Any more will be greatly recieved. ~ Pyoro

Scoville heat units?

How official is this term? Most sources I've seen simply refer to them as Scoville units. If "Scoville heat unit" is correct, it certainly has an unscientific ring to it, as it's not a unit of temperature but pungency. This goes too for the article itself, as it uses the words "heat" or "hotness" while referring to pungency.

Scoville value for non-hot pepper

The way I read the definition of Scoville values in the second paragraph, a completely non-hot pepper would have a value of 1, i.e. a 1:1 dilution of the pepper has no detectable heat. Yet in the chart of values, bell peppers are given a value of 0. I believe this to be inconsistent.

The value of 0 is correct: they need zero (not 1:1) dilution to become undetectably hot. --User:Taejo|대조 09:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

As long as you add water to the chili extract, and not the opposite as was stated before. I changed it. Floss 666 (talk) 13:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

New Hottest Pepper: Bhut Jholokia

1. See here: http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/2007/february/hottest_chile.htm Should probably be incorporated into the scoville scale somehow.

2. Also, the top picture and its caption should be removed and replaced with the new record holder, or the caption should be changed to second hottest for the Naga Jolokia.

---

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omglazers (talk • contribs) 04:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

Ho-hum, the bhut jolokia is the same pepper as the naga jolokia. Please do some research before telling us what should be done. Skopp (Talk) 15:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

hitandrun83@hotmail.com

Naga Morich is the hottest pepper raiting at 1.6 million scovilles. Atleast that what the guy selling "snake bite" hot sauce. If naga morich and naga jolokia and bhut or bih jolokia are the same, why are there differeces listed for their heat?

Calculating the resulting SHU for mixed solutions

Why can't this section be included in the article? Isn't it possible to calculate SHU this way?

The resulting hotness for a mix of solutions with known volumes $V$ and known concentrations of capsaicin $C$, measured in SHU, is described by the formula: $C={\frac {C_{1}V_{1}+C_{2}V_{2}}{V_{1}+V_{2}}},$ or by using $k$ as the quantity of volume between solution 1 relative to 2: $C={\frac {kC_{1}+C_{2}}{k+1}}.$ E.g. mixing 2 parts of 10 000 SHU with 1 part of 100 000 SHU results in 40 000 SHU.

Libido 15:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Pray tell us why your speculations are worthy of inclusion? This looks to me like complex vandalism. Skopp (Talk) 15:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• • This is the kind of answer I expected from Skopp, but the main question remains unanswered. Is it possible to calculate SHU this way? My assumption to do this calculation is based on logic thinking and is currently of interest for me to be verified or falsified. Another example that seems rational: Mixing 1 part of 10 000 SHU with 1 part of 0 SHU gives a 5 000 SHU mix, right? I don't see the flaw in my formulae. Libido 14:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Tear Gas

I think I read somewhere that tear gas is in the range of thirty to fifty million scovilles. Is this a fact? Can non-capsaicin chemicals be properly rated on the Scoville Scale? --Alx xlA 03:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

As I believe the Scoville Scale is essentially subjective to the human experience, it's reasonable to assume that it can be rated on the same scale. Really, the scale doesn't measure the amount of capsaicin in the fruit (or substance, in processed varieties) it just measures heat. The more acurate HPLC form certainly can't be used to rate tear gas, as it would not contain any capsaicin. --Puellanivis 19:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Anaheim? New Mexico Chile? Peppers?

I'm having some trouble figuring some of this stuff out. I grew up in New Mexico and only knew the chiles in that area as "Chiles". It wasn't until I got to Seattle that I learned that there were different types. (Sure we knew of "Jalapenos" and "Habeneros" but those weren't included in what was meant when one said chiles in New Mexico.)

So, now I find out that the "Anaheim Chile Pepper" is the more common term for the New Mexican Chile Pepper. The problem I'm having to reconcil, is that New Mexico Chile Peppers are typically much hotter (say 4000-5000) than Anaheim Chile Peppers, (250-500) and in particular, Anaheim Chile Peppers are described as being less hot than Poblanos. New Mexico Chile Peppers are typically much hotter than Poblanos. Now, while I'm aware that they are the same species, they are different genetic branches of the same tree, where New Mexico Chiles are still bred for high heat for native dishes, even if they're bred for lower heat for the consumption outside of New Mexico.

So, should this list mention "most Anaheim Chiles", and "New Mexican strains of Anaheim Chiles"? Or should they be properly refered to as different, but point to the same thing. --Puellanivis 19:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No. there is no such thing as a New Mexican Strain of the Anaheim Chile. The Anaheim Chile is a strain of the New Mexico Hatch type Chile. The Wikipedia article on Ahameims even makes this point. I suggest for this reason it just say New Mexico Chile All2humanuk (talk) 08:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Da Bomb Chilli Sauce

There is a chill sauce called Da Bomb which as been tested to 1,500,000 by a third party lab. Can we add this to the table?

http://www.chilliworld.com/SP6.asp?p_id=101

Tim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.154.28.46 (talk) 10:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Black Pepper

Just wonderind, what would be Black Pepper on the scale? --68.219.79.145 (talk) 20:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC) (Answer here at my talk page, PTOWERY

From Black pepper: "The spiciness of black pepper is due to the chemical piperine.", so it would be a 0 on the Scoville Scale, but something could be done to figure out where it would be on the Scoville Scale if it were Capsicum. --Puellanivis (talk) 02:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That's wrong, the Scoville scale is purely organoleptic and does not care about the chemical nature of constituents, this is clearly stated in the article. Сасусlе 02:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read the article again: "An alternative method of quantitative analysis, known as high-performance liquid chromatography, directly measures capsaicinoids and attempts to relate the measured chemical values to the Scoville scale using a mathematical conversion factor." While using the organoleptic can give the latter thing that I referred to (a rating if it were capsicum) but any HPLC method would fail to find anything. Thus, the scale necessarily depends upon capsicum. --Puellanivis (talk) 05:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That only means that "alternative method" is flawed. Scoville units measure spiciness of food, not capsaicinoids content. The scale IS organoleptic, meaning if given food feels spicy, it's non-zero Scoville units, period. 83.14.232.226 (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Pure piperine (from black pepper) in itself is listed on Wikipedia at 100,000SR. 69.47.170.103 (talk) 06:21, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

SHU Conversion Chart

SHU Conversion Chart

How much sugar water is needed to neutralize one part of capsaicin, or until the pungency has dissippated? For example, does it take one part water and one part sugar to equal one sugar water unit necessary to determine the Pungency ratio and then, How much liquid volume does one use to measure one SHU? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacqndave (talk • contribs) 19:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The only reference I could find is that Mr. Scoville used Simple Syrup. It was a message-board type site though and not really worthy of being a reliable cite. The wikipedia article on syrup lists the most common ratio as 2 parts sugar to 1 part water. CredoFromStart ^talk 20:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 01:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Pepper on the scale?

"855,000-1,050,000 Naga Jolokia [7][8][9], Dr Pepper [10]"

Somehow I doubt the validity of Dr. Pepper being that high on the scale, or even at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gisforgenocide (talk • contribs) 02:05, 10 September 2008

Dr Pepper at 855,000-1,050,000 SHU? I think someone's pulling our leg, or else there's a cultivar that someone called 'Dr Pepper' as a joke. -Megan in Texas 2602:306:CD93:1700:150D:4C53:B297:D794 (talk) 00:15, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Pepper Spray

I don't have an account here, nor am I familiar with editing, but someone should fix this. When pepper spray manufactures say their pepper spray is 2 million SHU (sabre red) or 5.3 million SHU (fox) they mean the actual Oleoresin Capsicum solution they use to make the pepper spray. This solution is diluted by solvents and propellents. To find the actual SHU for the spray, it must be multiplied by the OC Percentage. Fox labs has a 2% solution in their 5.3 million meaning the stuff that comes out of the nozzle is 106,000 SHU. Sabre Red has a 10% solution so it's 200,000 SHU out of the nozzle.

I'm not sure what we should say the range is; Some pepper spray brands go as low as 32,000 SHU at the nozzle. Realistically though, what police use is around 100,000- 200,000 SHU. The numbers need to be changed, that citation should be changed, and the level in the chart should be bumped down to the proper position.

Citations -2007 Sabre Red Law Enforcement Catalog http://www.sabrered.com/PDFs/2007-Law-Enforcement-Defense-Catalog-Sabre-Red.pdf (some may argue that this could be biased, so i'll give more)

-http://www.reliapon.com/shu.htm (This comes from another pepper spray maker, but their numbers match those given by their competition.)

-http://www.blissfulweb.com/family-home/article4715.htm (that's an independent article but i don't know where it originally came from, it's reproduced on many pages.

Maybe you guys would like to find more things that support what I'm saying, but I'm pretty sure the page is in error. 65.32.154.189 (talk) 06:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Note the propellant and solvent are usually quite volatile, while the active substance "sticks". Of course the mix of the three ("at muzzle exit") will be lower on the scale, but seconds after it sticks to the skin only the active substance remains and SHU goes up right to the stated value. Of course less of the substance by mass remains on the sprayed surface, so measuring SHU in relation to weight change of the can, as opposed to weight change of the sprayed surface will give the low result. 83.14.232.226 (talk) 08:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

---

I don't have an account, but I agree completely with this. I've consumed both pepper spray directly and sandwiches that were 5 million Scoville, and I can say with absolute certainty that the sandwich was much more than twice as hot. Even ignoring the above, the estimates for pepper spray given in the source are between 500,000 and "over 5 million", while the scale reads 5 million to 5,300,000. Most common pepper sprays are listed in the two million Scoville range, including the ones I have consumed. The above should not be ignored either; Mad Dog's Revenge, Special Edition sauce is made with 6 million Scoville extract, yet can only boast 700,000 Scoville units due to being dilluted with other ingredients and peppers such as habaneros which have a much lower capsaicin content. By the above reckoning, Mad Dog's Revenge, Special Edition would have to be classified and sold as an extract, not a sauce. The bottle is labeled appropriately as stands, noting the Scoville units of the extract and overall sauce separately. The sooner this glaring factual error is corrected, the better.

Did you measure the amount of material you tasted? I assure you a can full of pepper spray will be more spicy than a small pinch of Mad Dog's Revenge. (the scale relates 1 unit of substance per x units of water, meaning 2 units of 100SCU substance diluted in 2 units of water will feel just as hot as 1 unit of 200SCU substance diluted in the same 2 units of water. And the amount of water (saliva) in your mouth is constant.) 83.14.232.226 (talk) 08:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I just found a medical supported source that backs up a police assessment for SHU in pepper spray. Most law enforcement grade pepper spray rates between 500,000 and 2,000,000 SHU, so we would go with the median number per WP:CALC. This is how our other pepper related articles are handled with wide ranges of SHU. The example being used isn't talking about home or self defense which is made clear with the added link to law enforcement. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Peppers claimed to be even stronger than the Naga Jolokia (in spite of their Scoville rating)

Hi. I wrote a subsection about two peppers a few days ago, which according to a seed company is even stronger than the strongest one on the Scoville scale, the Naga Jolokia. I referred to a web page hosted by the company; the section I added was removed because of claimed advertizing, and I got a warning. I still think the section should be in the article though; even if it is in a modified shape. If someone else agrees with me, that one can gladly put it back; myself I'm not going to put it there again. --Kri (talk) 19:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

What I mean is this: Nothing is mentioned of the possible flaws of the rating system. A higher Scoville rating is automatically considered a hotter chilli; however, this is not for sure. As a matter of fact, the scale only measures the concentration of heat-producing chemicals, who have said there are no other factors which affect the heat fo a chilli? This site I reffered to before, claims that there are two even stronger peppers than the Naga Jolokia. Who knows? I have never tasted these. I only think it is fair to have opinions from both sides in an article. --Kri (talk) 07:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

We need scientific studies, not vague commercial claims from your company. Come back when you have a published paper. ► RATEL ◄ 07:58, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

What? I don't have a company, don't be ridiculus. I said the section can be brought back in a modified shape; that means that the "advertizing" can be removed. --Kri (talk) 08:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Kri: we cannot distinguish between you and someone working covertly to bring notice to the company, which is advertising. WP doesn't promote adding information solely for the purpose of advertising, and company websites are notoriously poor for accurate information about a product. As Ratel stated, we really do need some sort of real scientific source for the scoville rating of these peppers being above the Naga Jolokia. As for the heat of a pepper being dependent upon the scoville rating, it's scientifically validated information. The capsicum molecule is known to be the active ingredient in determining "heat" of a pepper, as it activates the pain/heat sensors of mammals. --Puellanivis (talk) 00:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I see that you cannot use the source as a reference, but I don't think that you have to defend Ratel in his accusations that I would be representing any company. However, what I mean is not that the heat wouldn't be dependent upon the Scoville rating (which it clearly is), but that maybe it wouldn't be dependent upon the Scoville rating only, which the article seems to claim. That, I guess would not be scientifically validated. But you know what, I think this discussion has gone a little bit to long, you can do what you want with the article; for me it doesn't matter. --Kri (talk) 22:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Super Chili

I believe many people own a plant from a local gardening store that is called something like 'an ornamental hybrid' or 'super chili' or some such thing. Could one of you experts not figure out how to write an article on this cultivar? I believe that it is a hybrid or mutant cayenne.--137.186.217.73 (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Chipotle hotter than jalapeno?

The scale shown here shows chipotles as hotten than jalapenos. Given that chipotles are just smoked jalapenos can someone explain this?

The thought that drying might concentrate them occurs to me but rating dried vs fresh on the same scale without accounting for that would seem bad methodology, as any pepper could be dried, and chipotles are often sold in a can, rehydrated (in a sauce). --Ericjs (talk) 03:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Supporting EDIT: I must second Ericjs on this... it is becoming widely known (even among amateur cooks) that a Chipotle is a smoked or otherwise roasted Jalepeno. Neither drying nor cooking concentrates the heat; in fact it mellows it, attributing to the Chipotle's recent popularity among less spicy-tongued diners.

There is no such thing as a Chipotle Pepper proper, much less a hotter version of a Jalapeno other than, well, a Jalapeno. I feel "Some Chipotle Peppers" assumes a spiced, canned or otherwise re-packaged version (of an already altered pepper), so it categorically has no place on the list lest you count the innumerable peppered meals as well.

I'll give our suggestions a few days to "simmer" before I edit the article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spectrezero (talk • contribs) 20:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Make me the third, I just added citation needed to both before read the discussion page. I think facts need to be in place for these two claims to be made, especially based on fairly prevalent knowledge that chipotles are simply smoked jalepenos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.105.233.228 (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Tabasco SHU rating wrong?

Before me sits the May 2007 issue of National Geographic, in which the tabasco pepper is listed having an "average" value of 190,524 SHUs. The magazine cites the Chili Pepper Institute of New Mexico State University as a reference. LizShort (talk) 17:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

1,067,286

Amazing. Until relatively recent times nothing on Earth could be measured to 6 significant figures, and this level of precision is still rare (it's a good wristwatch that doesn't gain or lose 30 seconds in a year), yet this claims no-one would notice a sensation of heat if the pepper was diluted 1,067,287 to 1. Please provide the error bars that justify this level of precision. It's abusive of numbers to pretend that 1,067,286 actually means this pepper is hotter than another scored 1,067,285. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

• "Until recent times"? Cesium clocks have been able to measure time down to one lost second every 1.4 million years for a long time. That's a far cry from the 1 second per 17 million years we enjoy today, but it's still one heck of a long way from six figures! I'm extremely curious as to where that notion even came from; it would make a good trivia question. "As recently as 2010, people believed that there was a six figure limit on accurate measurements because of ____". That said, while I'll agree it's a little eyebrow raising that a subjective measurement is accurate to six figures, it states elsewhere in the article that many Scoville measurements are derived by multiplying the parts per million by 15. You may ask why that doesn't limit Scoville measurements to numbers evenly divisible by 15. The answer is that you can have fractional parts per million. Some compounds are measured in parts per billion if they're really nasty. If you divide 1, 067, 286 by 15, you get the reasonable 71,152.4. 2/5 is a precision I can live with. 129.186.62.125 (talk) 18:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Check out Metre - it was nearly a hundred years after the definition of the unit before it was realizable to 1 part in a million, and even today there are precious few measurements that have 6 digits precision. It's abusive to report an HPLC measurement that measures capsaicinoid concentration with +/-12 % repeatabilty to 6 figures. One lost second in 1.4 million years is about 1 part in 10^13 - don't show that to the chili-heads or we'll start seeing 13 digits in the Scoville units; when everything after the first two significant figures is just lost in the noise. Someone remarked elsewhere it was a great pity Scoville didn't make his scale logarithmic; and I agree. It would be more in keeping with the response to, oh, say, sound or light, more like calculation of pH, and more in keeping with the precision used in preparation of foods. Dividing or multiplying by a scale factor doesn't change the significant digits; 6 digits reporting of PPM is as insupportable as 6 digits reporting of Scoville units.

My high school chemistry teacher whacked me over the head on the use of significant figures - one of the most valuable things I learned in high school. I can still remember showing him the 8 shining digits on my new calculator only to be told " Right numbers, wrong answer. ". --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

There's one sample of 1m, one of 1,05m etc. (all probably measured as ppm and then recalculated based on 16 15m = 100%). Well, take a hundred samples, do the average- print the final number. Because it's such a crazy number nobody can remember, more people will believe it to be "scientific and proven and very, very correct". This is pretty common in science, (and in sports), but yes, it's really "about five times a habanero as they grow down that hill in sunny years". To get real information, I'd not only want the average, but the standard deviation, too. No peppers are alike, not even from the same plant, and a single one can ruin your chili con carne as well as your average. 92.230.117.172 (talk) 21:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I would think that our ability to quote the precision of a number would track pretty well with Pi, up until calculus was invented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.83.117 (talk) 06:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Dave's Insanity Sauce on scale

Should "Dave's Insanity Sauce" and Tobasco sauce be on the provided scoville scale? Though it may have some history in the world of hot sauce, it seems that these inclusions of branded products are out of place in an article which is description of a scientific unit of measurement. It would be better placed on a page reserved for "World's Hottest Hot Sauces". - Evan Rappaport July 11 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.227.60 (talk) 16:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

sichuan peppercorns & kashmiri peppers

Would be interesting to know the scoville rating of more non-chili ingredients like sichuan peppercorns, and more varieties from the subcontinent like the kashmiri chili. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.210.209 (talk) 19:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Article on topic

Oh wow. Here's an article on the mile. Let's list distances between all the world's cities, after all, that's measured in miles.

Please don't list all the world's chile peppers or various hot sauces here. The article is about the Scoville scale and not a sales catalog for chile heads. The numbers have *huge* error bars on them (compared to measurements in, oh, say, Hertz or metres), and any two random peppers grown at different times and different places will have great differences in the Scoville numbers, let alone the differences *betweeen the laboratories themselves*. Think of this before you list the merciless Pepper of Quetzalacatenango, grown deep in the forest primeval by the inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

What about curries?

This article focuses on chilli peppers. Surely the piquance of curries could just as well be measured in this way? After all, you could just as well dilute a curry sauce as you could a pepper extract. (Indeed, the documentation on Template:Infobox pepper states that it can be used for "heat of chillies, curries, or anything that calls for a rating on the Scoville scale".)

Though I'm not sure that we can meaningfully list Scoville ratings for different kinds of curry, since recipes vary. But it would still be meaningful in the context of specific curry recipes, so it would make sense to at least mention it here. Or is there some other standard way in which the hotness of curries is measured? — Smjg (talk) 20:27, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You could ofcourse do it the same way as with chili sauces, but no one is interested in curry scovilles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floss 666 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

What is your evidence of this? — Smjg (talk) 23:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, curry spiciness originates directly from capsaicin in peppers. So we have a plain dilution, capsaicin content in pepper, pepper content in curry. There's not enough mystery behind this to write scientific papers about that. Just take a pepper of known spiciness, make a curry with it, divide the SHU of the pepper by its concentration in the curry and you have the SHU of the curry. 83.14.232.226 (talk) 11:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Scoville value dependent on quantity?

The article doesn't mention whether, when establishing the Scoville value for a pepper, you take 1 pepper or a specific mass of peppers. If it's the former, then 10 jalapenos have 10 times the Scoville value of one jalapeno. Could someone clarify? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phthalo123 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Dry or wet?

"the hottest chiles, such as habaneros, have a rating of 300,000 or more"

Dry or wet? -- Toytoy 00:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, SHU is defined per unit of dry weight. I can't access the original paper by Scoville, but I found two papers describing the analysis as such; I updated the article accordingly. It is a convenient definition in that it does not change the SHU rating of a chili if it is dried intentionally or unintentionally. It also means that it makes little sense to compare SHU ratings of chili peppers against that of chili sauce or pepper spray without stating the water content. Han-Kwang (t) 15:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Aji dulce SHU

Aji dulce, also called Venezuela, were listed next to bell peppers as having no significant heat. I removed it, due to uncertainty of the correct value, and doubt that it would be insignificant. I found one vague corroborating reference (snippet view shows "Aji Dulce...no heat"), and two references contradict it, [books.google.com/books?id=m4vvs87XiucC&pg=PA90 one] listing it as 2,500-5,000, the other as 200,000-350,0000. Additionally, and a reference that described it as a mildly pungent cultivar of Capsicum chinense with high levels of capsinoid, based on a 2010 study by Tanaka et al. (Tanaka's paper shows up in Google Scholar, but not as free to read; "Scoville" doesn't seem to occur in the paper). Agyle (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Scoville Method reversed?

From the current page, "Increasing concentrations of the extracted capsinoids are given to a panel of five trained tasters, until a majority (at least three) can detect the heat in a dilution." That doesn't fit with the scale, or with what I'm reading on other sites. http://www.chilipepper.com/Information/ScovilleScale/tabid/59/Default.aspx

The amount of capsinoids needs to remain fixed, as the amount of water dilution increased. The panel votes when the heat is NOT detectable. This accounts for the very low number of dilutions for sweet peppers and the very high dilutions needed for spicy peppers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Will.in.Eugene (talk • contribs) 01:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

6,400,000 max

The sources don't say that. Where do we get those figures? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:07, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Carolina Reaper vs. peppers in the next tier down

I have to be skeptical of the way the table is formatted, with the Carolina Reaper (which I've heard cited in many places as the hottest pepper) in its own category at 2,200,000 SHU, while the next tier down goes up to 2,199,999. All of the other tiers are rounded off to round numbers, many of them even overlapping the range represented by other tiers. The article cited for the 2.2 million SHU figure mentions that that was the result for the hottest individual Carolina Reaper pepper tested. Add to that the fact that the Wikipedia article for the Carolina Reaper cites an average of 1,569,300 SHU for the cultivar, and it falls squarely in the range defined by the lower tier. 98.235.202.85 (talk) 22:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

the columns might be relabeled. After "Scoville Heat units" add (million units), so top one is 2.2. Carolina reaper should be added (hottest single pepper). Find the AP article and check source there, or use that article if seems reliable and authoritative.

A story by the Associated Press says the record is for the hottest batch of Currie's peppers tested, code named HP22B, which stands for "Higher Power, Pot No. 22, Plant B." The hottest individual Carolina Reaper came in at 2.2 million Scoville heat units. juanTamad 01:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtamad (talk • contribs)

I think you might have misunderstood my point. I didn't take issue with the way the columns were labeled, but with the way the Carolina Reaper was showcased. It was given its own tier even though the record is for the hottest individual pepper in the cultivar, not the average heat of the cultivar. There was a single Carolina Reaper pepper that tested at 2.2 million SHU, but their average is 1,569,300. That means there are individual peppers of other varieties that are indeed hotter than the average Carolina Reaper specimen. The table is deliberately set up to make it look as if none of the other peppers are even close enough to be in the same tier. 98.235.202.85 (talk) 13:16, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I just took a look at the pages for the previous record holders for hottest pepper, and those all have prominent mention (sometimes more than once in a very short article) of the Carolina Reaper. It sounds like someone really likes promoting this cultivar. 98.235.202.85 (talk) 13:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree, the table should probably just include broad categories, with footnotes or something maybe for individual pepper varieties or cultivars, if notable. Looks there might be marketing going on. Maybe the whole thing needs a review of the sourcing. juanTamad 13:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Just checked in on this to see what the table looks like. I like that someone gave a range to the Carolina Reaper, but the lower end of the range cited (~1.6 million SHU) is actually the average--by definition, half of the individual peppers of the cultivar fall below that number. I also still feel like it should be included in the next tier down, since its entire SHU range falls within that bracket. Nothing wrong with mentioning the current record-holder for hottest pepper somewhere in the article, although if the new addition to the table (which also infuriatingly has its own tier now) is correct, the Carolina Reaper no longer holds that distinction. 98.235.202.85 (talk) 22:29, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The numbers may need to be converted further, so you are not looking at such a large number with so many zero's

It is a lot easier to read 16 million than it is to read 16,000,000 etc. 124.176.161.161 (talk) 13:45, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Why is Jalapeño on two Scoville levels?

Jalapeño is listed in both 1,000-4,000 and 3,500-10,000. Which is it? And why does the first range go to 4,000 and the next one start at 3,500? Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 14:01, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Contradictions to be fixed

Hottest pepper

"The HP56 Death Strain is currently the highest rated pepper in the world (SHU)."

The chart: "The Carolina Reaper is the hottest pepper in the world (SHU)." —User 000 name 19:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Chemicals

If the scoville scale is a measure of capsaicin concentration, then how can a chemical rank higher on the scoville scale than pure capsaicin? —User 000 name 19:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Scoville scale is organoleptic - detection treshold of spiciness in diluted substance. Obviously, measurement of this is cumbersome - requires a statistically significant number of participants to perform multiple tastings of progressively more or less diluted substance, and then report their discoveries. A common simplified method to obtain the SHU without requiring that is to measure the capsaicin content - and obviously this method is flawed because it misses spiciness from any other sources than capsaicin, or influence of other substances that - while not spicy themselves - reduce or increase spiciness of the base substance. It provides a good estimate of the value in case of products where the dominating source of spiciness is capsaicin, but it fails utterly in case of others. 83.14.232.226 (talk) 10:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

No precise definition of the SHU unit

It is clearly stated in the section "Scoville organoleptic test" that one SHU unit is related to the number of times the capsinoids solution must be diluted for testers to agree that there is no detectable heat in the sample.

Confusingly the paragraph ends with: The heat level is based on this dilution, rated in multiples of 100 SHU.[4]

What does this mean? Can we clearly define what 1 SHU is and what the heat level is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andyofmelbourne (talk • contribs) 10:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Is is really SHU? OR STU?

Whevever I look for peppers I see things listed as STU on the back of the label.. Like what the heck is STU? Ive head of SHU obviously but all these products keep calling it STU? is it the same measurement? I mean I cant find anywhere online what the heck STU is and when I look at it, it seems to draw me back to the scoville scale... eh so much inconsistency.. take a look at the back at some spring valley Cayenne 40,000 STU... why dose it not say SHU? Then I look up the articles related to this and the pepper and its SHU... errr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:D403:D96B:25B7:544D:3665:EA7B (talk) 05:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay as Im looking around I find one suggesting a scale called Scoville Thermal Units (STU) I had to go though many, many pages to get a reference to it but seems to be what many American supplements are using to rate their pepper products now.. here's a couple examples where you can see products labeled clearly as STU,

http://www.betterlife.com/product/cayenne-40000-stus/natures-herbs/5538 https://www.amazon.com/Spring-Valley-Cayenne-Fruit-Capsules/dp/B001QRV546

if you dig around you may find more STU and references to Scoville thermal units.. but I'm starting to think it was just something made up by the "natural remedies" folks to sound different because its the only place I see references to STU rather then SHU... not sure if its worth mentioning in the article but if it confused me and made me go trying to look it up, im sure im not the only one wondering with that nagging question.. (only ever a nagging question when you cant find a actual answer lol)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:D403:D96B:25B7:544D:3665:EA7B (talk) 06:05, 11 August 2017 (UTC) 

TTG Spice Game

I know that Tears of Zephos has a highest rating but I'm not sure about this giving suffering from pain on my tongue. Apollo C. Quiboloy fans (talk) 04:20, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Not the list of hottest peppers

Articles are about their subjects. This is not the article List of the most exaggerated outlandish claims of pepper hotness, whatever EV that might have. Let's leave the "world's hottest pepper" nonsense to teh Guiness folks. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Generally, I agree, but the published secondary references address the range of pepper hotness, as does the Capsicum peppers graphic. Encyclopedia users may want a reference of what the Scoville scale measures as low-moderate-high. Content below is removed for discussion:

Facts are nonsense if they're extreme! Alex of Canada (talk) 02:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

The chilis with the highest rating on the Scoville scale exceed one million Scoville units, and include specimens of naga jolokia or bhut jolokia and its cultivar, the "ghost chili", which does not have official cultivar status.

Numerical results for any specimen vary depending on its cultivation conditions and the uncertainty of the laboratory methods used to assess the capsaicinoid content. Pungency values for any pepper are variable, owing to expected variation within a species—easily by a factor of 10 or more—depending on seed lineage, climate (humidity is a big factor for the Bhut Jolokia; the Dorset Naga and the original Naga have quite different ratings), and even soil (this is especially true of habaneros). The inaccuracies described in the measurement methods above also contribute to the imprecision of these values.[tainter]

References

--Zefr (talk) 22:53, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't know why this was removed from the article. Let's remind people that the Scoville units are intended as scientific measurements, not the lies of a marketing department. --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

You seem to be on both sides of the debate about whether a numerical Scoville score associated with chili peppers is news by reputable publishers or 'marketing'. The second paragraph has one source for 3 statements. You reverted this edit which has as much veracity as anything in either of the disputed paragraphs. --Zefr (talk) 03:51, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I've confused you. This article is about the Scoville scale. There is very little encyclopediac value in a list of press clippings where journalists breathlessly report astronomical heat values with excess precision. However, Wikipedia loves press clippings. I can see how this would be confusing. --Wtshymanski (talk) 05:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Overall, I agree with trimming the hype and references about the hottest peppers, but feel we should retain the most recent news and Scoville number – if from a WP:RS source (personally, I accept investigative reporting by a major newspaper) – which is a sentiment I sense you would agree. If that's the case, we need a major edit of the Capsicum peppers graphic. It is generally appealing and useful, but contains an outdated list with some very old sources, and should be considerably trimmed per WP:NOTCATALOG. My recommendation is below; referencing in this article can be selective or voided if WP articles/links exist. --Zefr (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Scoville heat units	Peppers
0.6 to 3.2 million units	Pepper X, Dragon's Breath, Naga Morich, Carolina Reaper
0.1 to 0.6 million units	Red Savina habanero, Habanero chili, Scotch bonnet pepper, Datil pepper
10,000 to 100,000 units	Malagueta pepper, Chiltepin pepper, Siling Labuyo, Cayenne pepper
1,000 to 10,000 units	Guajillo pepper, 'Fresno Chili' pepper, Jalapeño, Anaheim pepper
100 to 1,000 units	Banana pepper, Cubanelle, Pimiento
0 - 100	Bell pepper

Again, articles are about their subjects. If someone wants to start a list of Most outlandish claims for pepper hotness, it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. But this article is about the Scoville scale and should only have some illustrative examples. There is very little news about the Scoville scale. It doesn't need a list of everyone's favorite peppers. It would be like an article on "Climate" constantly being updated every time it rains somewhere. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:22, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Moving an edited graphic to the article, with references eliminated, per WP:BB. For the record, what would you consider an "official" Scoville source for peppers, if not Guinness WR? --Zefr (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

The Madame Jeanette? There's nothing unique to discuss about this pepper or include it in the table now that it's been well-surpassed in SHU by several others. The above discussion started because the table had become a catalog of any hot pepper, WP:NOTCATALOG, rather than highlighting the ones that broke new records as the SHUs increased. --Zefr (talk) 19:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Pungency units vs SHU - a correction

The maximum number of pungency units for capsaicin is 1,000,000 (because pungency units are parts per million of capsaicin). This is multiplied by 16 (not 15) to get SHU.

Here are some references: https://search.proquest.com/docview/1170759263?pq-origsite=gscholar https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/education/resources/highschool/chemmatters/archive/chemmatters-dec2013-pepper.pdf https://sizes.com/units/scoville_unit.htm

Also, look at the page itself, under the heading "Capsaicinoids". It states that the SHU score of pure capsaicin is 16,000,000, confirming the reference above.

The number 15 is for dihydroxycapsaicin, not capsaicin itself. Again confirmed on the actual article page.

Marchino61 (talk) 05:00, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

The cited source clearly says "Conversion to Scoville Heat Units can be made by multiplying ppmH by a factor of 15." Why do you keep changing 15 to 16? And WP:BRD means that you should discuss a contested edit and wait for consensus, not restore your edit and then start a discussion. Meters (talk) 05:46, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

We are using the original research paper by the person who invented the scale. If, as your other sources suggest, the scale has since been changed, then we need a reliable source to show that the standard has changed and we need to change the source we use in the document, Meters (talk) 05:53, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand. Just above your message I gave three sources which state that the value accepted now is 16, one of which is peer-reviewed and published in 2008, i.e. 13 years later than the source in Hort. Science that you refer to. The value of 16 also agrees with the values given in the last section of the article, which clearly states that pure capsaicin has an SHU of 16,000,000 (not 15,000,000). Either I am wrong, or that last section is wrong. At the moment the article is internally inconsistent. Marchino61 (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

You changed the factor from 15 to 16, but left the reference which specified a factor 15. You dId not add any new refs to the article when you did so. Looking at the new refs you list on the talk page:

1. I don't have access to ProQuest so I don't know what that ref says.
2. The ACS ref, written by a high school chemistry teacher, does say that the Scoville scale reaches 16 million. There is no discussion of how that maximum rating is determined or why it differs from the original scale.
3. The sizes.com ref also says that the scale reaches 16 million, that an older version of the scale only reached 15 million, and that the Scoville scale dilution test has been replaced by ASTA units (presumably the pungency units we mention in the article) determined by high pressure liquid chromotography. These can be converted to Scoville units by multiplying by 16 . This information looks reasonable, but the source itself is not a great one to use as a definitive source. It's questionable as a reliable source as it started as a one-man project by "an educational 'content provider' who began his career in film" See https://sizes.com/aboutsizes.htm .

Our article does contain chart that states that pure capsaicin has an SHU of 16,000,000. Unfortunately there is no source for this claim. Looking at Capsaicin the claim is repeated in another unsourced table, but elsewhere tin the article the SHU of capsaicin is listed as "15,000,000 - 16,000,000" (again without a source). Both articles need to be internally consistent and have have reliable sources. Meters (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I didn't know wikipedia is about discluding information you don't like

It's ridiculous to not include a good amount of examples for the scoville scale. It's completely relevant to the article. It's not as if the article is very large. Wikipedia is supposed to be a database of information, a place where people go to know new things. Alex of Canada (talk) 02:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Dilution or guessing or chromatography?

How is a Scoville measurement actually done today? The definition of the scale seems to say it's the dilution at which a panel of tasters agrees they can detect spicy heat. This is different from someone globbing a sample in his mouth and saying "That tastes like 13,571 units". I would imagine no-one this century has convened a panel of tasters to use the dilution method when HPLC is readily available. But would that be correct? --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Wtshymanski: There's obvious controversy and "inexact science" involved because one part of the scale is quantitative (HPLC or content of capsaicinoids), while another part is subjective based on experienced testers evaluating the 5 sensations, as in the organoleptic section you just removed (I feel it should remain, as the 2017 Guzman study impresses as the best integrated study available). In WP:SCIRS stated here, "Make readers aware of legitimate uncertainty or controversy within the particular field of study. A well-referenced article will point to specific journal articles or specific theories proposed by specific researchers. Wikipedia neither accepts nor rejects any particular position - describe any disputes and their place in the scientific discourse, but do not engage in them. Many values, such as the masses of transuranian elements or the isotopic composition of the solar system, have an associated uncertainty, and even up-to-date highly reliable sources may report slightly different values." Perhaps we can delineate the controversy and absence of SHU clarity better, but the 5-point sensation scale of Guzman and Bosland is a high-quality discussion worth keeping. --Zefr (talk) 20:07, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Articles are about their subjects. This article is about the Scoville scale, not "what eating spicy food feels like". The 5 points in the Guzman article seem not about Scoville heat units but a more general investigation of the sensations of eating spicy food. This seems out of place for this article. We don't talk about the sensations of a long distance runner in the article about "metre", as a far-fetched example. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:31, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Garbage in, garbage out

I am removing the incorrect primary source, Guzmán and Bosland (2017). These fools cite a paper which, if you actually read it, gives a different number. Heaviside glow (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Better to discuss first. What's the problem? --Zefr (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

If you're referring to the number "15 or 16" quoted in the article, the Guzman paper cites 16 but other papers cite 15. I don't see anything substantially wrong with the Guzman paper and it's published in a reputable journal with an impact factor of 3.5 and h-index of 120. Aside from being a primary source, please substantiate your problem with the paper. Jamgoodman (talk) 22:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

If a source can't tell the difference between 15 and 16 in the source they cite, then everything they say about other papers is also suspect. Furthermore, there is not one fact in the article that was supported by the Garbage and Baloney (2017) source, making it a case of WP:Spam#Citation spam. Heaviside glow (talk) 19:03, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Please don't make the edit until a decision is finalised; we've already discussed this. I agree it's suspect that they appear to be misquoting the paper they're citing but Bosland wrote **both** papers. You'd have thought they would know which number they used. But which should take precedence? How do we know that one isn't a typo or that the number was changed after the publication of the 1995 paper? It's not citation spam since **both** references are equally valid. I believe both the numbers 15 and 16 should stay until a more reputable, and 3rd party, source is found claiming one of the two. It would be imprudent to simply ignore one of the numbers without proper justification. Please update us when you've found such a source. Jamgoodman (talk) 19:30, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I have found where the 15/16 values come from. (Rafael Rocha-Herrera 1997 p. 26) reviews the early evaluations of the level for threshold detection of pure capsaicin, in terms of ppm dilution. (Suzuki et al 1957) finds 15 ppm, (Todd 1958) finds 17 ppm and an "anonymous author" in (Krajewska and Powers 1988) even finds 30 ppm. The differences can be explained by simple biological variability and the adoption of a particular value, be it 15, 16 or 17, will be a matter of convention. If you cannot prove what the convention is, all values should stay in the article; it is not appropriate to baselessly assume that one value is more correct. The sources and quoted values 15 ppm and 17 ppm are also cited in the introduction to (Todd Bensinger and Biftu 1977). Unfortunately, neither the Suzuki paper, "A new method for the determination of pungency in red pepper.", nor the (Todd 1958) paper, "Detection of foreign pungent compounds. Oleoresin, capsicum. ground capsicum and chili spices.", appear to have publicly available copies. But regardless, they are well cited in the literature. Jamgoodman (talk) 20:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the sources I've listed show a consensus for the threshold of 15-17, if not the convention used to calculate Scoville units. But regardless, the choice of 15 or 16 is effectively redundant since Scoville units have a low precision. I'll draft an edit shortly. If anyone has any qualms with it, please address them within the next few days or I'll consider the matter resolved. Jamgoodman (talk) 14:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

What should take precedence is the ASTA guide, but it is not freely available on the internet. The matter cannot be resolved by your fiat statement, per WP:OWNER. You are not the owner of the page nor its content, and if you attempt to bully people further I will take the dispute higher. Heaviside glow (talk) 20:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Just for the record, Jamgoodman has been thorough, fair-minded, and correct in interpreting the available sources. There has been no bullying. The Guzman article is a high standard and certainly should stand as one of the article's most important references. --Zefr (talk) 22:20, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Please do take the matter higher; if you think I'm attempting to bully anyone, then quite frankly, I'm embarrassed for you. I've acted nothing but cordially and if you can't see that, it's hardly my problem. I've shown papers that verify the facts. If you can show us the ASTA guide then by all means, do so. Jamgoodman (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Pageviews

Please note that this article receives just under 2 million pageviews a year, so it behooves editors to make sure that the page is correct. Heaviside glow (talk) 19:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Application to other spices

The article contradicts itself. In some places, it says that it applies only to capsaicin spiciness from hot chilis (measured either organoleptically or analytically). In other places, it says or implies that it applies to other kinds of spiciness, such as that from black pepper (piperine), mustard, Szechuan pepper, horseradish, ginger (shogaol), etc. In addition, some of the article about those foods include Scoville ratings. Can we clarify this? --Macrakis (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Pungency unit table?

I don't want to hurt its feelings , but this table doesn't seem all that useful. It's based on Wilbur Scoville's flawed test and also somehow fails to account for the possibility of a pepper with between 70,000 and 80,000 Scoville Heat Units. I like the idea of a more visually appealing way of understanding the scale using practical examples, but feel this is much better achieved by the image of the pepper stand in Houston. I would like to know if people think I should remove this table, or maybe try to replace it, or just fix the fact that it unnecessarily links to this secondary article which is just quoting a random book which I think could be cited instead.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:bb6:47a9:2600:edf2:227d:32f8:e31e (talk • contribs) 01:19, September 1, 2021 (UTC)

There appears to be an error in the paper we are using, but you can't cite the book it references unless you actually read a copy of the book and confirm where the cutoff is between highly pungent and very highly pungent. It could be 70,000, it could be 80,000, or the error could be in the book itself. Certainly the picture of the pepper stand with faces is not a suitable replacement. Meters (talk) 02:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, thank you for your response, but I've no idea how to fix this.
Cited on Wikipedia is an article, which I will hereafter refer to as "The Molecules Thing", which is about chili consumption in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and just casually quotes the information made into this table. (The information made into this table is hereafter referred to as, "The Bane of My Existence"). The Molecules Thing cites the information as coming from a book called Spice Crops By E. A. Weiss.
A preview of Spice Crops By E. A. Weiss containing the The Bane of My Existence and including the same numerical error is available on Google Books. This version is incomplete and I don't believe it states where these numbers are coming from. I'm not paying €176.10 in order to purchase a hardback copy of Spice Crops By E. A. Weiss and I have to doubt that whoever put The Bane of My Existence here didn't do that either.
Through googling I have found several other instances of people using The Bane of My Existence, almost always with the same error, but cannot find it's original source. I found one version that corrected the error to suggest that Highly Pungent ends at 80,000 SHU, but it didn't link to anything.
Ldiøtic (talk) 14:21, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I know where the journal paper sourced it. I did look at our article and the reference before responding to you. I was just pointing out that you cannot change the source to the book the journal references unless you actually read the book, since you appeared to be suggesting that as a possible option.

I have simply removed the subjective table, including its error, since the journal is considered a predatory journal by some sources and thus is not a reliable source. If someone wants to restore this information then they can find a reliable source and word it accordingly. We should not list such subjective descriptions as pungency levels without clearly attributing them to a particular body. Meters (talk) 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2021

Add page to the Scales category.

The Pyruvate scale is listed in the Scales Category page, but the Scoville Scale is not. Zhynn (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done DigitalChutney (talk) 20:50, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Practical procedure

I miss the concrete procedure. Would it work like this?

Step 1, Reference: Prepare an initial solution "R1" of pure capsaicin of mass m1 (e.g. 10 g) in 96% ethanol and dilute to volume V1 (e.g. 250 ml) in a volumetric flask.

Make dilutions with sugarwater:

25 ml of R1 diluted to 250 ml will give you R10, a 10x dilution of R1. 25 ml of R10 diluted to 250 ml will give you R100, a 10x dilution of R10. 50 ml of R100 diluted to 100 ml will give you R200, a 2x dilution of R100.

SI suffix terminology: R2500=R2.5k, R50,000,000=R50M

Starting with higher dilutions, work to lower dilutions till your board of human sensors disagrees, possibly going back to lower dilutions if your sensors agree it's spicy. That final dilution, e.g. R20M is 16 MSCO (or whatever you want pure capsaicin to be).

Step 2, Sample: Do a soxhlet extraction of m1 (air?) dried chili powder/flakes (with seeds?), dilute to V1 and find the final solution as in step 1. If your final reference dilution is R20M and your final sample dilution is S10M, then your sample has 16M/20M*10M=8MSCO.

HPLC may be more accurate for capsaicin, but only humann can tell how hot other capsaicinoids and other substances are. Darsie42 (talk) 11:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

WP:SCIRS source? Zefr (talk) 17:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

New Hottest Pepper

I've heard a rumor about an artificial pepper that is around 3,000,000 scoville units 108.228.172.26 (talk) 05:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@108.228.172.26 "artificial"? 2402:9D80:386:A915:0:0:368D:A7FF (talk) 04:29, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Needs an "In Popular Culture" section

what do you think? Lena Key (talk) 18:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Trivia sectins are not needed, and pop culture sectinos become unhelpful listings of random unmotivated observations with no encyclopediac value. --Wtshymanski (talk) 03:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)