Talk:Scout Promise

The Netherlands

The Netherlands is one of the few countries where it is allowed to leave out the reference to God in the Promise. This is stated very clearly by the Dutch Scouting Organisation (I'm sorry I cannot supply an english link). The WOSM has agreed to this in the past, because the right to do so was granted apparently by Baden Powell and his wife [1]. I clarified things a bit and moved this topic to a separate paragraph, because the text below the Dutch promise became bigger and bigger. :)
Cpt. Morgan 18:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe the situation is that when WOSM agreed to the current wording, it also allowed Associations who did not comply to keep their wording. The new policy or guidelines allied only to the future. I am not sure that the Netherlands is the only organisation that it applied to. I believe it applied to organisations that were in WOSM as part of a federal body in their country. See what I said earlier lower down this page. --Bduke 20:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the wording of my comment a bit and included a reference. Sorry about that, looks like it crossed your reply. As I stated in main article and as you can find in the reference above, six countries were apparently granted the right to an alternative promise by Baden Powell and his wife. WOSM and WAGGGS have decided not to oppose this right, although they do discourage the use of any alternative promise. Cpt. Morgan 21:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Outlander promise

What is the reference for the Outlander Promise? When and where did B-P introduce this. WP sources should be given, but more importantly I think many people will be interested in this and will want to cite it. Bduke 21:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The Outlander Promise is accredited to B-P by "tradition" in [2]. It is claimed here that it is in the 1912 edition of "Scouting for Boys". --Bduke 02:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I was hoping to confirm this. See discussion at Talk:The Scout Association. It turns out that there is no copy of the 1912 edition where I thought there was in Melbourne. Can anyone else find a copy of the 1912 edition? --Bduke 00:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the urban legend of the "Outlander Promise" as five months after I asked for a cite from published literature, none has yet been provided. Once we get a specific source and page number confirmed by reference to a published Scout Organization document, then it can come back in. Until one is provided, it's out unless we want Wikipedia to be an encyclopedia of "wishful thinking" instead of facts. GCW50 19:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think the links I gave above are an urban legend. They are clear evidence that some traditional Scouting organisations use this and accredit it back to B-P. It is mentioned also in the article under "non-WOSM" and the 2st Tarrant. I have added a link there. I would not have thought it was beyond the capabilities of the Scouting Project for someone to check the editions of Scouting for Boys around 1912. I have tried here but we do not have a complete set of editions in Melbourne. It is really quite important because it indicates that B-P did not always have the view that God was an essential component of Scouting. I think his view changed backwards and forward on this issue and was not as rigid as some Scouters maintain. But so be it, if you insist on removing this interesting historical curio. It can be put back later. --Bduke 23:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the only controversy is whether B-P wrote it, not whether it existed. I think it may have been in the second edition, 1967-84, of the Boy Scouts of America Fieldbook[3]. --Jagz 23:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I have been in correspondence with a Scouter in the UK who knows the archivist at Gilwell Park. The information he reports is that the Outlander Promise has nothing to do with B-P. It seems this is a frequent question the archivist gets. It appears that it was introduced by the UK Scout Association Committee of the Council in 1966. In 1987 , following a report from the Religious Board, the Committee of the Council withdrew the 'Outlander Promise' and it was replaced by the 'Alternative Promise'. However, I have no published source for this, and I guess the minutes of the Committee of the Council are not published. I was very active in the Scout Association in 1966 and recall nothing of this and that surprises me as I think I should have. However my source is very trustworthy. Without a published source, this information can not be added to the article. It seems the accrediting of the Outlander Promise "traditionally to B-P" is just wrong. --Bduke 00:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Promise where there is not a single National Organisation

I am wondering about this sentence at the top of the article - "The form of the promise has varied slightly from country to country and over time, but must fulfill the requirements of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement to qualify a National Scout Association for membership.". It does not address the situation where there is more than one national association and they form a federation to join WOSM. In some of these cases, as I understand it, some of the member organisations of such Federal bodies have a Promise that does not meet WOSM rules because they had it before WOSM made the rule and are allowed to keep it. The organisations I have in mind are those with an anti-clerical background that exist in some European countries alongside Catholic or Protestant Scout organisations. Of course my knowledge of this is recall from the 1960s so I could be completely incorrect. Can any of our European friends add anything and suggest how this article can reflect their situation as well las the USA, UK, Australia, etc. situations where there is a National Scout Association and no other affiliated to WOSM? --Bduke 00:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

While the above point is important, it misses a more important point. Where there are several Associations that together are affiliated to WOSM they may have different Promises. The situation may be quite complex, ranging from several associations all with different Promises, through a Promise that is used by some, but not all, associations in the country, to the situation where one Promise is used by all. I think we need to give all Promises in each country stating the Association each belongs too. At the top we could have a statement like "The Promises given below apply to all Associations in the given country, that are affiliated to WOSM, unless otherwise stated". We then need to just label some Promises with the name of the Association(s). Of course all this applies to the article on the Scout Law as well. --Bduke 06:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Scouting Controversies and Concerns article needs expansion

The Scouting controversies and concerns article needs to be expanded by the addition of Scouting problems and controversies from countries and regions around the world. --Jagz 09:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't there a mention of the word "Oath", when the word was in use from the beginning of the BSA into the 21st Century? Even now, the phrase "Scout Oath" is the phrase of choice, not Scout Promise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NVS314 (talk • contribs) 01:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The article is written from an international perspective; apparently most of the organizations in the WOSM use the term "Scout Promise" and that phrasing is used with that in mind. Tyrekecorrea (talk) 01:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about Boy Scouts of America's place on the list of scout Promises by country. It looks like this article is about Lord Baden-Powell, who originated scouting, and the impact the guidance he provided on the original Scout Promise subsequently had on scouting worldwide. The flow of the history of the promise seems to go from Powell to Britain to the rest of the world. It doesn't make sense to thrust American Scouting into prominence by pointing out that semantic difference when Boy Scouts wasn't a part of the start of the scouting movement, when it followed rather than led. In other words, there's not much of a point to drawing attention to the different phrasing used by Boy Scouts when it has only affected things in America on a national level and has had no real bearing on what the term Scout Promise has meant on the international level over time. I guess Boy Scouts decided at some point in its own formation process to be original and do things a different way. Besides, from what I can tell, Boy Scouts don't really obsess over or even pay attention to this difference in phrasing. They're just trying to do their own thing like the other national scouting organizations, and do their best to connect and get along with their international peers when they have the opportunity. Tyrekecorrea (talk) 02:26, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I suspect that when you use the expression "Boy Scouts" you really mean "Boy Scouts of America". Although most have now been co-ed for decades, almost all countries initially had "Boy Scouts". It makes your comment quite confusing. HiLo48 (talk) 08:14, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually, no, it doesn't. I used capitalization for a reason. Most of the other scouting organizations have been coeducational for some time, and I was using Boy Scouts as the proper name for the American organization which, up until now, had officially been for males only. 144.121.102.245 (talk) 13:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually, you've got a fair point. Now that Boy Scouts of America is poised to formally start incorporating girls, America having two major organizations with the word "Scouts" in their names is especially confusing, particularly in light of the fact that the first Girl Scouts chose to be called Scouts. Maybe Girl Scouts adding badges for more masculine activities was a way of trying to restore that. No. That makes things still more confusing. One the logical thing to do would have been to take a stand in defense of how their brand ties into what it means to be feminine. Tyrekecorrea (talk) 22:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

"Boy Scouts of America" is the proper name or BSA for short; Boy Scouts could be used as a shortcut when the context is only US. BTW the Venturing program of the BSA has been co-ed for decades and has used the same words as the main program (since 2014). I will also note that there are other nations which are still boys only (e.g., Saudi Arabia). Also many of the organizations have in the past been single sex and this article does cover history. Probably safest to use the organization's name or abbreviation to avoid confusion. --Erp (talk) 04:22, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I know all that, but it was already clear that this conversation was about the American Scout Oath and that Boy Scouts of America is apparently the only scouting organization of its kind that refers to its promise by such a name. As such, I've already edited the article on Boy Scouts of America to address the likely rationale behind the distinction. That's all the attention it really needs, unless you feel compelled to make such an adjustment to the Scout Promise article. However, I would advise against doing so, because if people get hung up on semantics, it may result in Boy Scouts being ostracized. Tyrekecorrea (talk) 22:04, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

And precisely what did you mean by "Boy Scouts" in THAT sentence? Please remember that this Encyclopaedia is global, as is this article, and many of the potential readers. I was a Boy Scout once, and I'm not American. HiLo48 (talk) 23:27, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

You couldn't tell that I was still talking about Boy Scouts of America? It's not like I'm jumping all over the place in this conversation. Are you from a country whose WOSM scanning organization actually uses Boy Scouts in its name, like Bahrain? Tyrekecorrea (talk) 23:43, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

No. No matter what Americans think (or fail to think), many of us grow up with completely different mindsets. It doesn't matter where I'm from, apart from the fact that it's not the USA. We all really must continually recognise and address the global nature of both this encyclopaedia and Scouting. HiLo48 (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

If your scouting organization doesn't use "Boy Scout" as a title, it makes more sense to refer to yourself as a Scout rather than a Boy Scout, and it looks to me like you'd agree. You could refer to yourself as a male Scout if being clear is especially important to you, but that doesn't seem as appealing or comfortable, does it? Tyrekecorrea (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Scout promises of France and Venezuela

The Scout promises of France and Venezuela can be found here [4]. --Jagz 19:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Scout promise of Israel and Guidelines

According to the article the Netherlands and the Czech Republic are the only two WOSM scouting organizations with no duty to god (or equivelent such as duty to my religion) yet the Israeli Scout promise does not have this. I've double checked the Israeli promise and it does seem to be correct so it seems the statement about the Czech Republic and the Netherlands is wrong.--Erp 17:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The Netherlands and the Czech Republic are the only ones who have a alternative promise without a reference to God who were granted that right by the WOSM and the WAGGGS and still using that right. So the Israeli Scout promise is more or less illegal or the WOSM and the WAGGGS have forgotten that that right was also granted to the Israeli Scouts or the WOSM and the WAGGGS are just happy there is just one scouting organization in Israel and think that is more important than a reference to God in the promise. --Egel _Reaction? 11:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know which. There is also a possibility of a bad translation; the promise has duties to both my country and my land and I'm not sure how those two are separated. I would also be interested in knowing whether this is the same promise used by all the members of the Israeli federation or just that of the Hebrew Scout Movement. Unfortunately many of the web pages seem to conflate Hebrew Scout Movement and the parent federation and I can't find any pages on the other members of the federation.--Erp 18:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

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French 'dieu' does not come from Zeus

The section 'World Organisation of the Scout Movement Requirements' cites sources which say that the French word 'dieu' (god) is derived from the name of Zeus. This is not the case. Dieu comes from Latin 'deus', which in turn comes from Proto-Indo-European '*deywós'. Zeus (Ζεύς), on the other hand, comes from Proto-Hellenic '*dzéus', in turn from PIE '*dyḗws'. I was unsure of what to do with the paragraph as a whole, as it seemed to be important, but the sources cited are incorrect about the origins of the word dieu. Kjoenn.zoe (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)