Talk:Satellite Spies/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Protected again

...for two weeks, due to renewed editing by 124.197.37.160, self-identified on 9 August as Deane Sutherland, who has a conflict of interest as a party to the dispute. This is likely to restart the edit wars. Tomorrow I will post at the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard WP:COI/N to attract more uninvolved editors to help. I think the likely solution will lie in reducing the article to a stub with only the undisputed verifiable facts. Suggestions towards that are welcome. If the dispute is mentioned at all, it should be no more than a sentence: "Since <insert date> the rights to use the name are disputed." JohnCD (talk) 00:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible references

Possible references for this article if it ever has a chance to breathe if the edit-warring subsides.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear Administrator JohnCD - I write to you with regard to the last edit I attempted to contribute towards article accuracy (unbiased).

Just to be clear - your main article edit had NOT been adjusted at all, added to, nor had anything removed from its composition whatsoever.

Those little icon boxes, either side of your article edit, contained obvious errors that have never been in dispute - and these I sought to correct (not being a point of contention for anyone); I believe this 2nd-lock was an overreaction; partly due to past and unfortunate matters you have previously mentioned.

Having heard you, and I agreeing with your wisdom on this direction; I left the article composition completely alone - and was in the process of attempting to change the song 'IT MUST BE LOVE' record label, from Reaction Records to ARL Music, and year of release to 1999, not 1994 as the article presently states - (this information is common knowledge within R.I.A.N.Z - The Recording Association of New Zealand and Muzic.net.nz whom also receive the chart from R.I.A.N.Z). This National music Chart 1162, for a given week in June 1999, contains the New Zealand National Information. (This is situated in the ‘left icon’ box listed as 'Discography')

Also - in the ‘right icon’ box listed as 'MEMBERS'- I also was in the process of including past fellow band members, some of whom have now passed away. These fallen Satellite Spies Band Members have given many years of long service through recording and live performances ; in particular 'WILLY SEIFFERT' (RIP) and 'LYLE JENKINS' (RIP)

I find it extremely disappointing the questions, '(WHAT ARE THESE ICON BOX ADDITIONS?), were never given the courtesy of enquiry of what they were. There was nothing abusive, insulting, and argumentative or misleading.

These deceased band members deserve their right to be given their due - not to mention the obvious R.I.A.N.Z recorded information being excluded.

Please investigate yourself at: (COPY LINK) http://www.muzic.net.nz/charts/c17238/official-new-zealand-top-40-singles-1162-06-june-1999.html (Song is 1999, not 1994 as in the current edit)

http://www.muzic.net.nz/artists/2685/gallery/1123/9957 (COPY LINK) This link will take you to a New Zealand Musician Encyclopaedia statement and photo, of Satellite Spies Band Member LYLE JENKINS whom died. WILLY SEIFFERTS remembrance has not been completed as yet on our Satellite Spies website.

Mark Loveys departed the band in 1987 - if wish to believe otherwise - that is your prerogative.

These are the facts - I should know; Satellite Spies has been my profession for over 25 years. I formed the band in 1984, and I have witnessed many, many musicians come and go. I am this bands longest serving member (I have seen all the changes it has gone through).

Signed, An extremely disillusioned & disappointed Wikipedia Satellite Spies Contributor. Deane Sutherland, Satellite Spies Musician & Founder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.10.102 (talk) 09:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Accuracy is important

Declaration: I am Mark Loveys, founding member, singer, songwriter, bass player of the band called Satellite Spies that operated in New Zealand during the 1980's.

Firstly my thanks to JohnCD and Tomwsulcer for your efforts to reign in this argument and distill it down to verifiable facts. Also my thanks to Glyn Tucker, for going on record, taking the abuse and defending the truthful version of events around Satellite Spies.

I belive that publishing untrue and unverified information is damaging to the credibility of Wikipedia as well as those that untrue information is being spoken about. For this reason, I agree with JohnCD's suggestion to reduce the article to a basic stub of undisputed verifiable facts. It may even need to be locked, to prevent the edit war restarting.

I believe that the undisputed verifiable facts are as follows; Satellite Spies was a New Zealand based pop rock band in the 1980's consisting of Mark Loveys and Deane Sutherland. They had a hit record called "Destiny in Motion" and they were the support act for Dire Straits on the New Zealand leg of their "Brothers in Arms" tour. In 1985 they were voted "Most Promising Band" and Mark Loveys was voted "Most Promising Male Vocalist" in the New Zealand Music Awards.

I dispute much of the information that is in the present locked version of the Satellite Spies article,as follows; 1. The band was not formed by solely by Deane Sutherland as indicated in the current version. Glyn Tucker told the correct version in his earlier postings to this talk page. Satellite Spies was in fact formed by Glyn Tucker (record producer), myself and Deane Sutherland. 2. The comment in the article about Blase having difficulty breaking through to NZ radio is also incorrect. Blase had better success in radio than most NZ bands at the time. The songs "Rock Solid" and "Just like the Old Days" were payed regularly on radio stations 1ZM and Radio Hauraki at the time. At a time when not much local content was played on NZ radio, this was a great achievement. 3. The mention of Deane's song "It must be love" in the middle of the article distorts the perception of when that song was released by the band he called Satellite Spies in the 1990's. This was obviously long after what most people remember from the 1990's. 4. I Mark Loveys did not quit or depart the band Satellite Spies. The truth is that Deane Sutherland did quit, immediately before a Satellite Spies nationwide NZ tour called "Living in a Minefield". I continued with Satellite Spies and completed that tour (with prominent NZ guitarist Brett Adams replacing Deane Sutherland) and went on to do many other tours, recordings and videos throughout the rest of the 1980's with Satellite Spies. Today there is plenty of evidence on the internet (including YouTube videos) of Satellite Spies performing without Deane Sutherland after he left the band in the 1980's. 5. Deane Sutherland certainly did reappear on the NZ scene in the 1990's with a new band he called Satellite Spies. This band included none of the members of the Satellite Spies band that toured, recorded & performed with me during the late 1980's. He also certainly did register the trade marks for Satellite Spies. I know all of this because I was regularly quizzed by confused people (many of them from the NZ music industry) on how this other band could call itself Satellite Spies and claim to be the same bankd that released the popular 1980's hit "Destiny in Motion".

In summary, I think that "Less is More". Better to have less infornation in the article, but keep it down to accurate verifiable basic facts, rather than have a lot of embelished contested information. Most people who were around in NZ during the 1980's and followed music know the truth anyway.

My thanks in advance to the independent person who takes up the challenge of updating the article down to its basic verifiable facts :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Loveys (talk • contribs) 22:06, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

AN INTERESTING READ TO BE SURE –

So, I began an investigation into these claims put forward by both sides in this dispute.

1/ I contacted various Music Magazine Review Writers from the 1980’s, 1990’s and the 2000’s; they all agree with specific aspects of this debacle; in that the only Satellite Spies compositions to have made any real impression on the New Zealand public are ‘It Must Be Love’ (1999) and ‘Destiny in Motion’. (1986) (EVIDENCE).

Furthermore – the latter music video features both Tommy Joy (Sutherland) dark haired chap and Mark Loveys in a hat and coat; which proves they were once in this band together. (First clarification) (EVIDENCE)

2/ HOWEVER: the presiding music video and musical composition features only Joy (Sutherland), (NOT Loveys) as in the ‘Destiny in Motion’ song and video from 1986; this would indicate that Loveys was no longer with the band. (EVIDENCE)

(NZ Music Reviewers, of the time, agree Loveys indeed departed the band during the late 1980’s to focus on an accounting software writing business; however – no details whether this split with Joy was amicable or not). 3/ It has also been brought to my attention, by individuals highly placed and respected in the New Zealand Music Industry; it is indeed odd, that Loveys argues Joy (Sutherland) quit the band during the 1980’s; YET, he condones the edits in the Wikipedia article to include the Satellite Spies song ‘It Must Be Love’ within the discography section – in which Loveys does not feature at all; that is, on the hit single ‘It Must Be Love’ or in the music video. (This would seem to be an admission by Loveys, although sub-consciously, that he agrees the ‘It Must Be Love’ Satellite Spies line-up is the same band he is arguing to convince us it is not). (GO FIGURE) (EVIDENCE)

4/ I also telephoned ‘NZ on Air’, the New Zealand organization who funds New Zealand Music Video’s from the government’s coffers, and they have only ever had dealings with Deane Sutherland (Joy) of Satellite Spies; they have never had any dealings with a Mark Loveys or a Mark Loveys in connection with Satellite Spies. (EVIDENCE)

5/ At the NZ Musician Magazine – there is no mention of Loveys being a member of Satellite Spies beyond 1987. (Source – NZ Musician Magazine owned ‘Musician Directory’ Muzic.net.nz) (EVIDENCE)

It would seem that after 22 years or more of not being a part of Satellite Spies – Mark Loveys wishes to take the band back by force through an guerilla internet campaign – one can only ponder, with regard to his mental state – as to WHY? WHY ? ? ? The band that only enjoyed two top twenty singles in their whole lifetime (and ONLY in New Zealand) – it is rather strange and frankly odd. THEY WEREN’T EXACTLY NEW ZEALAND’s PREMIER MUSICAL ACT I telephoned New Zealand’s Intellectual Property Office to examine Mark Loveys theories regarding fraudulent trademarks. The Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand informed me ‘Satellite Spies’ is a registered trademark; therefore NOT fraudulent. Incidentally the Office has not received any complaints or objections to the referred trademarks since their inception during the mid 1980’s at ALL. (EVIDENCE)

(If Loveys conspiracy theories were true – how come an individual with considerable business acumen has not followed formal procedure?).  (EVIDENCE)

Loveys is a highly ranked business professional whom does know better. The internet is full of wild theories and outrageous claims – I suppose because the internet is not open to censure in an orthodox sense – it would appear Loveys has joined the ranked of Conspiracy Theorists.

The governments Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand has stated anyone (including Loveys) has the right to challenge the trademarks in court – NB: it would appear that for over 25 years of trademark registration and utility trade, not a single objection or complaint has ever been raised of filed against this bands name. (EVIDENCE). Best Wishes, (We hope this helps).

Vaughan & Teresa Wheeler Orewa, Auckland North, New Zealand — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.162.200 (talk) 03:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Check the IP addresses

From looking at the entries on this Talk Page and the previous archived one, I notice the following;

The "Wheelers of Orewa" are using the same IP address as "Stan from Whangaparoa" which is 60.234.162.200

Deane Sutherland used the same IP address 124.197.37.160 as "Woman with Children" and several other "anonymous" commentators that have expressed strong opinions in support of Sutherland. If you search through the talk page and its archive you can see what I mean.

"Amanda the Unitech student of Point Chev who was enjoying a juice" used a Vodafone mobile IP address 27.252.98.80

I can't see the IP address of DunedinYoh, but I'm guessing that Wikipedia can.

It's also interesting to note that the characters arguing for Deane Sutherland's version of events (ie that the band he created in the 1990's had the right to pass themselves off as the 1980's Satellite Spies) all go to a lot of trouble to attempt to identify themselves with various colourful characteristics - but not enough to identify a real person. Boatie62 (talk) 02:42, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Discography

The discography present on the Satellite Spies Wikipedia page contradicts above information that Mark Loveys left in 1987. There is a recording present from 1988, in which Loveys' voice can be heard on a released Satellite Spies track. Thought this stood out when comparing the recordings to written information, both on the main page for this band and in the talk section. The video clip to this song is present on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bbWDJy3Yd8. Furthermore, the other band members of that period, Gordon Joll, Eddie Pausma, and Dave Curtis should be acknowledged on this page. Their existence in this band during said period is proved through multiple video clips of the time, again present on youtube. Further clips of the Loveys, Joll, Pausma, and Curtis lineup of the late 1980s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcwL__LTIY8&feature=relmfu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsyUfm08Jig&feature=relmfu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.52.5 (talk) 05:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Trademark Voice

The true "trademark" sound of Satellite Spies is in the distinctive voice of Mark Loveys. Listen to the significant body of recorded works recorded by the original band in the 80's and you will HEAR THE PROOF, on every track. Compare that with just a solitary single offerred up by Deane Sutherland's band over a 20 year period! Glyn Tucker. Satellite Spies Recording Manager for Reaction Records 1985 - 1988. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 05:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

MORE Mark Loveys Propaganda I see. (FURTHER MISLEADING RUBBISH)

Mark Loveys quit the band in 1987. No one has heard any complaint from Loveys from 1987 until 2009; when he commenced a covert internet campaign to STEAL registered trademarks.

I wonder if he operates his businesses with the same disregard & disrespect for New Zealand Law.

He must be desiring to use the band name again through dirty tactic's.

Just because a person wants something - doesn't mean they have the right to take it.

Satellite Spies have traded since the mid 1980's with Tommy Joy (Deane Sutherland at the front) I have seen and heard them perform many times over the years.

No one else in the New Zealand Music industry has heard of Mark Loveys since 1987; when he departed the band to develop his successful software business.

The New Zealand Musician Union hasn't any record of Loveys with Satellite Spies; NZ on Air has NO record of Mark Loveys with Satellite Spies at all; The NZ Musician Magazine (and their associated Musician Directory) has NO record of Mark Loveys still being with Satellite Spies; All music video's for TV during the 1990's and 2000's do not feature Loveys.

Mark Loveys you are obviously operating illegally and outside the law. Why don't you contact the Ministry of Economic Development (i.e. NZ Government); The Intellectual Property Office hasn't even heard of you.

All internet music video's Loveys (Boatie62) has uploaded as Satellite Spies are fraudulent, through imposter based marketing, and he seems to enjoy operating outside the law.

GOD help anyone who has business dealings with him, Glenn Holland and Tucker.(A cozy threesome of law breakers)

IF MARK LOVEYS THINKS HE HAS A legal CASE; THEN HE SHOULD APPLY TO THE HIGH COURT OF NEW ZEALAND TO CHALLENGE PROPRIETORSHIP OF TRADEMARKS, OR, FILE FOR a BUSINESS REGISTRATION TRADE-NAME WITH THE GOVERNMENTS INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OFFICE OF NEW ZEALAND. STOP BRAKING THE LAW AND CONFUSING PEOPLE WITH YOUR JARGON. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.98.169.230 (talk) 03:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Legality

In light of the previous false and defamatory post by 101.98.169.230 Deane Sutherland, I submit the following documents to demonstrate that Mark Loveys and Glyn Tucker are acting lawfully and these wild allegations by Deane Sutherland are totally false;

2009 Lawyer's Letter to Deane Sutherland

2009 Lawyer's Email to Deane Sutherland

2009 Legal Advice to Mark Loveys

Note to JohnCD: The article as it stands is substantially incorrect. The background to the situation is extensively documented in this Talk page and the tone of conversation from one side remains abusive and defamatory. I request that the version of the article that was researched by Wikipedia moderator Shell Kinney on 8th June 2009 be reinstated and locked from edits. It was reasonably correct (except for entry of "It must be love" as pointed out by Deane Sutherland). Boatie62 (talk) 06:27, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Darryl Sang Refutes defamatory comments against Glyn Tucker

I am Glyn Tucker, Recording Manager for the original Satellite Spies, and I was dismayed at the remarks made against me by a Darryl Sang of Ellerslie, Auckand on this Talk page on 7 August. So I tracked down Mr. Sang and had a civil chat with him. He denies any knowledge of the said post, categorically stating that he never made such a post. I believe him. So once again, another of Deane Sutherland' s supporters has been caught out as a fraud. Don't misunderstand; it is Deane Sutherland who is the fraud, passing himself off as Darryl Sang. JohnCD, please disregard all content contained within the said post. (most of it was idle personal slander against me and my business ethics; which I will defend to the death) JohnCD, please note also that the anonymous post of 23 August that began, " More Mark Loveys Propaganda (FURTHER MISLEADING RUBBISH)" ....etc featured the same IP address as Darryl Sang's post of 7 August. 101.98.169.230 It takes less than a Genius to conclude, from the style of writing, the agressive personal attacks, USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS, that the author of both these posts is none other than ... Deane Sutherland himself! Conclusion: I fail to understand why my position as the Record label owner has not been given the full and unbiased credit it deserves in determining the truth in this dispute. For goodness sake JohnCD, I signed the band! I am the best person on earth to know the facts regarding the origin of this band. My sweat and blood is on the studio floor! What happened after 1988 is totally irrelevant to the body of work recorded by Reaction Records in 1985 -1988. Therefore 99% of the rantings that Deane's "supportes" constantly pitch at you is the number of years they have been playing gigs passing themselves off as the original. Who cares!

Please get it right or bury this listing. It is an embarrassment to the NZ Recording Industry. References: http://www.amplifier.co.nz/label/81022/reaction.html http://www.discogs.com/label/Reaction+Records http://www.discogs.com/label/Mandrill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 05:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

NZ Music History References

Glyn Tucker here again. It should be very easy to check the validity of my part in the Satellite Spies story. Below are several NZ music industry and legal references that I urge you to contact to confirm my credibility. Please follow up with these people to get this story straight.

In order to make sense of some the wild ravings of some contributors to this debate, it is crucial to take the historic events chronologically; to understand the correct sequence of events in simple language with no emotion involved. So here it is...

1. The world must accept that there are two different bands that have used the name, Satellite Spies; Mk1 and MkII. 2. Mk1 began with a record contract signed on 1 Jan 1985 with Reaction Records.(now GTM Ltd) Reaction approved the new name. 3. Reaction considered the key band member to be singer-songwriter, Mark Loveys. 4. The other member of the band as signed was Deane Sutherland. (guitar/BVs) 5. Reaction recorded and released the album, Destiny in Motion, and single of the same name. 6. Both single and album sold well and featured on the NZ Top 20 charts. 7. “Hold on to the Night” and “I wish I’d Asked’’ also received good airplay. (from the same album) 8. 1986 Mk1 toured with Dire Straits, playing 4 outdoor concerts to a total audience of approx. 140,000. 9. By now Mk1 was a well-established band in NZ. IMPORTANT FACT. 10. According to Glyn Tucker, (who signed the band) the trademark “sound” of Satellite Spies, Mk1 was the vocal sound of Mark Loveys and his song compositions. 11. Satellite Spies won Most Promising Group Award and Mark Loveys won Most Promising Male Vocal award for the album at the 1985 RIANZ Awards. 12. Due to personal differences Mark and Deane split, directly after the Dire Straits tour, 1986. 13. Reaction continued to record material with Mark, and he replaced Deane with another guitarist. 14. Reaction released several singles during 1986-1987, including, “Living in a Minefield”, “Private Detective”, Only here for the Rock’n’Roll” and “Gonna Have to Change”. 15. Finally, in 1988 Mark called it quits and Mk1 was disbanded, denoting what we thought would be the end of Satellite Spies. 16. However, unbeknown to Reaction or Mark Loveys, in 1987 Deane Sutherland had applied for a trademark of the name and at some time a year or two later went to Australia with his band called… Satellite Spies. This is the beginning of MkII. Sometime in 1990 (thereabouts) MkII came back to NZ, gigging pubs around the country. 17. Reaction was made aware of the existence of MkII around 1990-91. 18. Reaction made a commercial decision not to dispute the trademark as it was uneconomic to do so. So far as Reaction was concerned, Satellite Spies were over. Only the back-catalogue remained. Surely MkII would fizzle out! 19. 1991 – 1999 nothing much happened. We all moved on with other projects… 20. 1999, MkII manages to make a single, It Must be Love, that made the Top 20 in NZ. 21. Whilst being annoyed that the this record sounded nothing like the original Mk1 band, Reaction saw no commercial value in contesting the Trademark. 22. MkII continued to play gigs for many years, but apart from that one successful single they never left a recorded body of work that compares in any way with the original Mk1 band. 23. 2012, and GTM Ltd (ex Reaction) has re-issued digital recordings of the Mk1 band, as the rightful copyright holder under the original 1985 contract; signed BEFORE the 1987 Trademark was granted to Sutherland. (how did he hope to get away with it?) 24. GTM Ltd assigned the rights to the digital re-issue of those recordings in 2011, to DRM NZ which has since been syndicating them throughout the world.

REFERENCES: RIANZ (Recording Industry Association of NZ) CEO Chris Caddick.... Wayne Hudson iP Lawyer. (see his contact details on the post above titled LEGALITY, 23 Aug).... Editor of NZ Musician Magazine, Richard Thorne.... Trevor Reekie, contributor of NZ Musician mag....

Moments like these: Excerpt from NZ Musicain Magazine July-Aug 2012. Curated by Trevor Reekie Along with plenty else since, Auckland guitarist, recording engineer and producer Glyn Tucker Jnr was responsible for a plethora of good records between the 1960s and the ’00s. Important Kiwi acts he has been associated with include the likes of The Mockers, Marginal Era and Street Talk. The singles he recorded with his band the Gremlins back in the ’60s were mini-masterpieces of studio production, a skill Glyn continued to develop in his years as owner of Mandrill Studios and its in-house label, Reaction Records. In what were pretty heady days, Glyn was always a gentleman producer with a natural instinct for a ‘pop hook’.

You developed the Mandrill Records label and later Reaction Records that had a mixture of successes and near misses. What were you looking for in a new band? Number one: good songs. Then character vocals – vocals that don't sound like the auto-tuned robots I hear on so many modern recordings. Without a good song you’re just kidding yourself, so what’s the point of working it to death.It’s already dead. The song is there to be sung, so the vocals are of utmost importance. Lastly, but still important, is a tight band that can has a nice blend of musicianship. I think The Beatles would have met all these requirements? So did The Crocodiles, Mockers, Satellite Spies, among others we recorded. But on top of all that you are looking for that X-factor that can’t be pre-determined; but is usually obvious when encountered. Who are some of the more influential or impressive musicians and producers you worked with in those years at Mandrill? There are too many great musicians to single them out, but there are some producers I can name. Locally, people like Eddie Rayner, Bruce Lynch, Murray Grindley, and Carl Doy are all talented producers in their respective fields. Of the few internationals I worked with I can single out Tim Palmer (Robert Plant, Satellite Spies,) John Boylan (Linda Ronstadt, Sharon O'Neill) and the one and only Kim Fowley (The Runaways, Street Talk). I met Kim Fowley in January 1978 when he came visiting NZ to “discover the new Beatles”. Just as he considered Liverpool to be a musical outback in 1960, so was NZ in 1978. From this isolation Kim figured he’d find something special. We met up one evening at Mandrill and I played him all the Kiwi records and tapes I had. He showed most interest in Street Talk, in particular Hammond Gamble’s bluesy vocal. As fate would have it, the band happened to be playing at the Windsor Tavern, about one km from the studio, so we wandered up Parnell Rd for a listen. Kim was impressed with the whole scene. The pub was packed (as usual) and Kim saw this as Auckland’s Cavern. At the end of the gig I introduced Kim to the band and we all went back to to studio for a chat. By 8am the next morning they all trudged out of the studio having written their next single, Street Music, and Kim identified the songs that would make up the first Street Talk album. Next day Kim met with Tim Murdoch of WEA Records who gave him a budget to record the single. Within five days we had completed the whole album, delivered it to Murdoch along with the single. It was in the shops a week later! Kim Fowley was a human dynamo,and worked our arses off! I learned a lot about the industry from him, and I liked his old school approach of getting as much of the band as possible live to multi-track, with minimal overdubs. What happened to Mandrill? By 1991 I was worn down by 10 years of struggle with radio’s constantly ignoring NZ music. I re-evaluated the Mandrill studio business and realised that I had been financially supporting the NZ music industry that I could ill afford.(There was virtually no NZ on Air funding back then.) So we converted Mandrill to a video post-production studio and virtually left music behind. This was a tough decision for me since music has been my life. It was a financial decision based on the reality of providing for my family. By 1995, I’d lost the desire to continue the studio without music and so sold the business. It was bought by what is now is Images, still operating in audio post-production, one of Auckland's premier facilities. Has your idea of what makes for a great pop record changed? Interesting! I don’t hear many great new songs.There is a proliferation of bland on bland, replacing inspired songwriting and production. To my mind the basics of a good pop song remain unchanged since 1955. Only the sounds have changed. How much has technology changed the way records are made in your time? Since we recorded the Gremlins in 1966 in Eldred Stebbing’s garage studio through to today the changes have been immense. In the first place there was the ’70s multitrack tape recorder explosion. From 2-tracks, to 4, to 8, 16 and then settling on 24-track recording up until the digital age. Nothing is impossible in the world of recording these days, and you don’t need a full blown studio to do it in either. The technology does however have a downside.You need a very clever and experienced engineer to mix all those tracks together and at the same time strike an emotional chord with the end listener.This where the old live to 2-track had a huge advantage.The emotion came from the performance, not the recording. The engineer could then put his skills to work on the sound of the record, and it would all come together. Even so, with a computer, some software, and a microphone and preamp anybody can now replace just about everything we had at Mandrill. From a commercial and financial viewpoint I wouldn’t want to be a studio owner today. The best advice you ever got was...? My dad said,“Son, you’ll never get anywhere with this rock’n’roll music. Stick with your cricket!” If only I’d taken heed I could have been making millions in India! Footnote: Glyn has recently been digitally re-mastering many of the recordings from the 1975-1990 Mandrill Studios era. Many of them are already on Amplifier (www.amplifier.co.nz) under the ‘labels’ tabs, Mandrill and Reaction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 04:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

More References

Hi JohnCD. Glyn Tucker again. Sorry if this is boring but it must be done to ensure credibilty and accuracy.

Other references who know me and have worked with me....Well-known in NZ and some around the world.

Carl Doy(musician), Murray Thom (Thom Music), Adam Holt (CEO Universal Music NZ), Dale Wrightson (Juice TV), John McCready (ex CBS Records and Radio Hauraki boss), and the following list of musicians and artists... Suzanne Prentice, Andrew Fagan of the Mockers, Jordan Luck of the Exponents, Hammond Gamble of Streettalk, Harry Lyon and Dave McArtney of Hello Sailor, Karl Stevens of Supergroove, Mike Chunn of Split Enz and Citizen Band, Brett Eccles of The Angels, Jenny Morris of The Crocodiles, Wayne Roland Brown, David Hasselhoff, Gray Bartlett, Dave Dobbyn, Ryan Monga of Ardijah, Eddie Rayner of Split Enz, Shona Laing, Steve Allen, The Rumour, John Hanlon, Diane Swann, Debbie Harwood, Annie Crummer, Stuart Pearce, Alistair Riddell, Frank Gibson, Mike Walker, Bernie Allen, Gary Daverne, and many others.... (there are many more who are sadly now deceased)

Let me know if you need any contact details for any of the above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 05:11, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Further to the above, here are some Wikipedia references to Glyn Tucker, record producer;

Tina Matthews

Tears, The Crocodiles album

Citizen Band

The Crocodiles

Jenny Morris

Boatie62 (talk) 09:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Solution: delete the article

This flood of reminiscences and lists of people to contact is all irrelevant; no-one is interested enough to ring round them, and it would anyway be pointless because Wikipedia works only from reliable, published sources. However it has been useful in helping me make up my mind: I am now convinced that this article is a net negative for the encyclopedia. At best, it will be a stub of a few sentences, and it seems likely that it if it is ever unprotected the edit wars will resume, and when it is re-protected they will carry on on the talk page. I think we should delete it, and salt the title to prevent re-creation. One of our principles is Wikipedia is not a battleground.

That is not my decision to make, but I shall open an Articles for deletion discussion within a day or two. Anyone will be welcome to comment there, but please do not use it as an arena to carry on your battle: the question for discussion will not be, who is right? or who owns the rights? but, is there any possibility of a useful article on Satellite Spies which will not be a permanent drain on resources in moderating interminable edit wars? JohnCD (talk) 22:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"LOCK ARTICLE AS ADMINISTRATOR JOHNCD HAS EDITED - AS IT IS NOW"

After observing the many posts and comments, from the many contributors on this talk page, I have executed my own inquiry into fact finding – it would appear the Wiki Article, as it is, seems mostly accurate (this realization came forth following discussions with the New Zealand Musicians Union, R.I.A.N.Z and A.P.R.A. (All notable and respected New Zealand Music Industrial Bodies)

However, this talk of multiple personalities within the talk page is both confusing and frustrating in part for me. Firstly: the Mr Tucker gentleman commented in an earlier post of his, that a Mr Sang was a fictitious character primarily. NOW however, we are informed by Mr Tucker that this Mr Sang is a real person whom someone else is impersonating.

Because of the reality that ‘Tall Stories’ maybe being showered upon us, that is if there is a Mr Sang whom actually does exist; THEN why hasn’t he entered a further comment onto this Talk page refuting the comment previously attributed to him?

Is this because Mr Sang did indeed make this comment? If so, then I am at loss to explain or comprehend why this Mr Tucker is claiming otherwise. (ALSO – why does Mr Tucker seek to reduce the article to a mere sentence; when all the Official New Zealand Music Organizations have endorsed, to me, that the Wiki article information is generally correct and accurate?).

I suggest locking the article as it is; to prevent cyber-sabotage` editing designed to confuse and promote falsities.

Best Wishes,

Aaron Bellsman (Unitec) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Bellsman (talk • contribs) 03:55, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The above post by "Aaron Bellsman" aka Deane Sutherland, confirms that this article "Satellite Spies" does not stand a chance, because he will continue to attack it with his never-ending supply of identities, perpetuating his false version of events around the band and his use of the name "Satellite Spies".

For the benefit of anyone who might not have realised the true origin of the above post, given the attempt to disguise his writing style and conceal which IP address he's using this time;

1. The user account "Aaron Bellsman" has only just been created and this is the only post he has made. 2. The surname "Bellsman" is not found in the entire New Zealand phone book 3. The surname "Bellsman" is not even found world-wide for anyone on Google and I conclude is therefore only just made up. 4. Who in their right mind (if not directly involved in this conflict) would "discuss" this article with the NZ Musicians Union, RIANZ and APRA?? If someone was that motivated, then why not get something in writing as evidence?

If Deane Sutherland had chosen the name "Bellman" instead of "Bellsman" then my points #2 and #3 would not apply, however he typed it twice, proving it's not just a typo.

While on the subject of identities, if anyone is interested; check out the writing style of DunedinYoh and Reactionaryprinciple (who was blocked from editing on Wikipedia) who both edited the article aggressively in favour of Deane Sutherland.

I regret to say that JohnCD is right. There is no hope for this article. Boatie62 (talk) 05:03, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Bring back Elvis

Deane Sutherland renamed his company "Living Water Energy Ltd" to Reaction Records Ltd on 25th October 2009. The sole director of the company is Darryl Sang and the sole shareholder is Deane Sutherland's trust, SERL Science Trustee Ltd (administrated by his partner and his brother).

For those not aware; Reaction Records Ltd was the name of the record company that signed Satellite Spies in 1985. The assets of the company (including the Satellite Spies contract) were transferred to G.T.M. Ltd before Reaction Records Ltd was closed down in the year 2000.

Given his re-use of two old names from the NZ music industry, I would have to conclude that Deane Sutherland has a fetish for digging up old names and reusing them.

My suggestion for Deane Sutherland is, why limit yourself to New Zealand names? Think bigger. Change your name to Elvis Presley. Boatie62 (talk) 21:12, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

JohnCD, Are You Listening?

I'm sorry to say that I think Wikipedia's handling of this dispute is appalling. I take it as a gross insult that my credentials and integrity as a respected contributor to the NZ Recording Industry, with a career that began in 1960, has been idley cast aside in favour of group of ghosts and aliases, making posts that are so obviously false... and yet you seem to believe them!

You could clear this up in 10 minutes. Nobody expects you to try to contact the dozens of industry people listed in my earlier post; but why not make an effort to contact just one? Any one. Starting at the top might be Chris Caddick, CEO of RIANZ. (The Recording Industry Association of NZ). Chris was with EMI in the eighties, and will know. Anybody at all who was working in the NZ music business between 1960 -1990 will vouch for my integrity.

In comparison the latest example of the posts supporting Deane Sutherland by (alias )Aaron Bellsman is simply an insult to one's intelligence. Today I have called Peter Shannon (Musicians Union), Petrina George (APRA), and Chris Caddick (RIANZ) As expected none of them have had a call from any Aaron Bellsman, nor have they ever heard of him. And so yet another of Mr Sutherland's aliases is exposed as a fake. So, how much longer will you let this debacle continue?

The issue for me, is simply that the story must be told truthfully or not at all; and the very first sentence that states Deane Sutherland formed the band in 1984 is a downright lie! JohnCD, you reminded us that Wikipedia only works with reliable published sources, right? I challenge you find any reliable public source in the world that would validate that opening sentence. So where did it come from? A reliable source must first get the story from a witness. I am that witness, and I assure you this unfortunate episode will be published in my memoirs. Then you will have your reliable published source.

This is a dispute between the two original members, Mark Loveys and Deane Sutherland. I stepped into this dispute, seeing myself as a mediator who was right there at the time and signing contracts with Mark and Deane at the inception of the band. I happen to agree with Mark's version of events because that's way it happened. I am the most reliable source you are ever going to find on the origins of Satellite Spies.

PLEASE CHECK ME OUT, OR BURY THE ARTICLE, NOW! Glyn Tucker — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

RIANZ chart report today

The single, "Destiny in Motion" first charted 8/9/85 and was on the chart for 10 weeks. It peaked at no. 14 in the weeks of 6/10/85 and 13/10/85. Source RIANZ official Top 50 charts. (see RIANZ on Wikipedia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 05:22, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

JohnCD and Moderating Team

To JohnCD and any other moderators here,

I don't mean to cause any offense to you, but are you actually reading the facts being presented to you in this argument? Please correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe you set this talk page up for sourced evidence. Let me repeat that: "sourced evidence". I'm sure I don't have to explain what that means to you. You are currently sourcing 'secondary resources' which do not have any primary sources backing them up in the first place. This is basic stuff guys.

Primary sources or evidence have been clearly presented by Glyn Tucker and Boatie62 - even a high school history student could pick up on this.

Please actually pay attention to the sourced evidence being presented to you, otherwise this whole page is a waste of time. Isn't it your job as the moderator to dig through the dirt? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guacamolerainbow (talk • contribs) 08:03, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely not - digging through the dirt is called original research, and we don't use primary sources, only reliable, published, secondary sources, those that have some sort of editorial control and fact-checking. If those are thin on the ground, it will be a thin article. JohnCD (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Links to on-line resources

Below are some published resources on Satellite Spies in order to help with validation of a basic article;

YouTube 1985 video of "Destiny in Motion"

YouTube 1986 video of Satellite Spies supporting Dire Straits in front of 45,000 people

Note: Many other videos are available by searching on "Satellite Spies" within YouTube.

www.amplifier.co.nz - Satellite Spies

NZ Music Awards 1985 (refer Most promising band and Most promising male vocalist)

www.satellitespies.net.nz (Mark Loveys' web site)

www.satellitespies.co.nz (Deane Sutherland's web site)

Deleting Music - article by music industry commentator, Andrew Dubber

www.charts.org.nz - Destiny in Motion

Satellite Spies' singles

Glyn Tucker - Reaction Records

Boatie62 (talk) 11:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

These aren't reliable sources though - please read that link. I do think Satellite Spies are a notable band but am having problems proving this as the band aren't mentioned in the index either of Gareth Shute's book or in the 2005 edition of "Stranded in Paradise". Daveosaurus (talk) 08:28, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Sources?

What is going on here? Under Wikipedia’s definition of a reliable source…

The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings:  the piece of work itself (the article, book), (= Songs as per discogs discography.)  the creator of the work (the writer, journalist),(= Mark Loveys, the writer of all songs)  and the publisher of the work (= Reaction Records Ltd and Mandrill Music Publishing (Glyn Tucker- CEO))

The pieces of work are listed on www.discogs.com that proves beyond doubt that fifteen recordings were published between 1985 and 1988, PRECEDING the date of Sutherland’s dubious trademark. Sutherland did not have exclusive rights to the name in 1987 and the trademark will not pass scrutiny; the name had already been in public use since 1985. Discogs also lists Mark Loveys’ previously published recordings with Reaction in 1984 under the earlier name of Blasé, titled, “Rock Solid” and Just Like the Old Days”. This substantiates the origins of the band that later became Satellite Spies. NB. What was Deane Sutherland doing in 1984 when he claims to have formed Satellite Spies. Ask him. I think he was in a band called Tomorrow’s Party.

The creator is easy to identify. APRA www.apra.co.nz can verify that Mark Loveys is registered as the writer of all Satellite Spies songs recorded by Reaction records between 1985-1988.

Glyn Tucker’s companies Mandrill Music Publishing and Reaction Records controlled the copyright in those recordings in accordance with the contracts signed by Loveys and Sutherland on 1 Jan 1985, and published the works for sale to the public. RIANZ can verify this. www.rianz.org.nz

Why have the above people, (reliable sources) been excluded as reliable sources, when they conform to Wikipedia’s definition? Whereas the opposing argument come from a plethora of dubious identities supporting Deane Sutherland? Where are the sources supporting his claim to have started the band in 1984?

Birdie2 (talk) 04:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

LINKS THAT MAY ASSIST IN PRODUCING AN ACCURATE ARTICLE BASED ON THE TRUTH IN THIS MATTER

• NZ Musician Magazine owned New Zealand Music Encyclopaedia

• Satellite Spies 1999 line-up 12 years following Loveys leaving the band

• An online stunt designed to mislead the public that Sutherland departed the band which is not true

• Satellite Spies New Zealand Music Encyclopaedia online Profile

• Satellite Spies single IT MUST BE LOVE chart records

• 1980's, 1990's, 2000's and 2010's Satellite Spies historical coverage website

• NZ Music Encyclopaedia chart records

• Satellite Spies now

The 'Deleting Music' article (MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS TALK PAGE COMMENT) is written by a Loveys family member which is designed to spread untruths (not based on any facts).

• This link is one titled under "Mark Loveys Satellite Spies" it is listed at i-Tunes site under M alphabetically, as to not be branded as Satellite Spies directly. If you search under just 'Satellite Spies' at i-Tunes, it does not find that exact name; Proof of not uploading under that name directly - but by association only.

MARK LOVEYS TRADING NOW

• Mark Loveys Trading Now it is listed at THE i-Tunes site under M alphabetically, as to not be branded as Satellite Spies directly. If you search under just 'Satellite Spies' at i-Tunes, it does not find that exact name; a reference of Mr Tucker and Boatie62 not uploading to i-Tunes under that name directly - but by association only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DunedinYoh (talk • contribs) 04:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

LINK

• Mark Loveys Trading Now

This i-Tunes aggregator site is one titled under "Mark Loveys Satellite Spies" and it is listed under M alphabetically, as to not be branded as Satellite Spies directly. If you search under just 'Satellite Spies' at i-Tunes, it does not find that exact name; A reference of not uploading under that name directly - but by association only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DunedinYoh (talk • contribs) 05:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

For The Record (new source)

Viewing Wikepedia as a reference online Encyclopedia, the most important period has to be the early formation and origins of the group. If we do not portray the origination accurately then the whole story is based on a foundation of quicksand. It matters not what happened after 1988, and any discussions relating to the post-1988 period are irrelevant because by then Satellite Spies was already a notable entity. (had been since their hit single and album, Destiny in Motion, 1985)

Further to Birdie2's post on 3 Sept headed “Sources?” This prompted me to search books written about NZ music history and I uncovered this historic published evidence that supports the claim that Satellite Spies was born out of Mark Loveys' previous group, Blasé. This book offers the indisputable proof that substantiates the consistent story I have been telling on this forum for the past four weeks.

Ref, “FOR THE RECORD, (1) A History of the Recording Industry of NZ”, book published 2002 by David Bateman Ltd. Albany, Auckland, written by Bryan Staff and Sheran Ashley. Under the history of Reaction Records, page 138 states, “The special partnership project that Tucker instigated with (Trevor) Reekie's replacement Mike Chunn (ex Split Enz) involved the group Blasé, whose name was changed subsequently to Satellite Spies”

Further, quoting from Birdie2's research...

“Discogs also lists Mark Loveys’ previously published recordings with Reaction in 1984 under the earlier name of Blasé, titled, “Rock Solid” REACT014, and Just Like the Old Days” RECT016. This is in line with the book “On the Record” and again substantiates the origins of the band that was renamed Satellite Spies.”

Since Sutherland was never a member of Blasé, how can he ever claim to have formed the band? The truth is that he was invited to join the band.

JohnCD, thank you for your effort in writing a short stub that is closer to the truth, by leaving out the contentious details. However I implore you make one small but very significant change in the light of the above evidence. It simply must read, “ Satellite Spies was formed by Mark Loveys and Deane Sutherland” etc. As I have said relentlessly, I signed Mark Loveys as the key member and so his name must always precede Deane Sutherland. (or Tommy Joy as credited on the record covers)

Glyn Tucker, Reaction Records (now GTM Ltd)

(1) Staff, Bryan and Ashley, Sheran (2002) For the Record, A History of the New Zealand Recording Industry. Bateman. ISBN 1-86953-508-1. ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 01:59, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Drummer's career path

Just posted on Facebook! A new resource from Gordon Joll, legendary session drummer with an amazing career spanning 40 years. Scroll to see what he was doing in 1986 - 1988.

Click here [[1]]

More truth to follow... Glyn Tucker — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 06:21, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Care to enlighten us as to how this qualifies as one of the independent references we're in search of? Stuartyeates (talk) 06:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes Stuart. The facebook page referred to was not specifically written for this forum. Rather it is a memoir of Gordon Joll’s history as a musician. His credibility includes playing with Herbs, produced by Joe Walsh, concurrently with his work with Satellite Spies during 1987-88. In this memoir he supports the fact that Sutherland left Satellite Spies in 1986; an important issue in this debate. After Sutherland left, Mark Loveys continued to write songs, make videos, and tour the band until 1988, when the band retired. By contrast if you research the reference made on this current main page, music.nz.net, you would find that it is a forum for any NZ band to write their own stuff and get exposure. The listing on this site bears little relation to the truth of Satellite Spies' history. It would have been provided by Sutherland. Glyn Tucker — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.99.228.218 (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I think this short stub should also be deleted - it is inaccurate.

It can be confidently stated that “It is not in contention Deane Sutherland and Satellite Spies moved to Australia in 1988 and onto Britain in 1990; Mark Loveys (whom departed the Satellite Spies during 87/88) very deviously and cunningly used the band name during Sutherlands absence; this happened while Satellite Spies and Sutherland were away overseas touring through live performances.

It must be remembered legal documents prove that Mark Loveys was using the Satellite Spies trade name illegally in 1988.

When the use of the band name came to Sutherland and Satellite Spies attention, an instruction was put to Loveys in 1990 directing him to cease using the Satellite Spies name - Loveys did so immediately. NOW - 20 years later; Loveys and Tucker, (from the bands now defunct 1980’s record company) wish to seize the trade name – to which they have no moral or legal right to.

I am of the opinion this stub should be permanently deleted and this article topic be prevented from ever being re-written. The two individuals (Loveys & Tucker) are just ‘MUCK RAKING’ using the internet to spread dissent and misinformation.

Those whom are interested – please click on the link directly below; this link leads to a government organisation for registration of trade and the recorded history of all the related intellectual property. There has never been any objection to this band name EVER.

• Satellite Spies Registered Trademark — Preceding unsigned comment added by DunedinYoh (talk • contribs) 00:19, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

New start

I have archived the previous contents of this talk page, which had become a mess of accusations and counter-accusations with no relevance to building an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not here to provide an arena for your interminable squabbles, and this talk page is only for discussing possible improvements to the article, which should be neutrally stated facts, verifiable from reliable sources. Other contributions may be removed.

Users who are connected with the band or otherwise involved in the dispute have a WP:Conflict of interest and should not edit the article directly, but may make suggestions for improving it on this talk page. Edit-warring, or personal attacks on other contributors, will lead to blocks.

JohnCD (talk) 23:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Evidence of 2 totally separate bands claiming to be the same

A further conclusion from the evidence presented by 219.89.52.5 is that there is video evidence on YouTube proving that two totally separate bands (who had no members in common) both existed at different times and both claimed to be Satellite Spies. Both claiming to be the same band from the 1980's that released the "Destiny in Motion" album and single. Both bands claiming to be the same, but two totally different sets of people...(stranger than fiction).

The following videos are of the 1980's Satellite Spies, filmed in the late 1908's, after the departure of Deane Sutherland. This band includes the same lead singer/songwriter/bass player as shown in the earlier, more well-known "Destiny in Motion" videos (also available on YouTube); Band members shown include Mark Loveys, Gordon Joll, Eddie Pausma and Dave Curtis.

Satellite Spies, Gonna Have to Change

Satellite Spies, Private Detective

Satellite Spies, Only here for the Rock n Roll

The following video is of the 1990's band, formed by Deane Sutherland and named by him as Satellite Spies. None of the members from the above 3 videos are present in this video below. A completely different set of people. I'm told they even played "Destiny in Motion" at their gigs.

Deane Sutherland, It must be love — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boatie62 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

This is, of course, completely original research and cannot be included in the article, even if it may in fact be completely true. —Darkwind (talk) 05:39, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Satellite Spies. These discussions normally run for seven days, at the end of which an uninvolved administrator will decide what to do, basing the decision on the arguments put forward in terms of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and not on a count of heads. Anyone is welcome to contribute: before doing so, please read WP:DISCUSSAFD, and please do not continue your dispute there. The question at issue is not Who is right? but Should Wikipedia have an article about this band? JohnCD (talk) 22:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you search Glyn Tucker Jnr on Discogs. Google search Satellite Spies and see www,satellitespies.ner.nz

Dear ex-members and friends of ex-members

First read this article before you write here in support of one side or the other in this little dispute.

Every time you post here you make yourself/your friend looks less like "A guy who was part of a band in the 80s" and more like "An idiot who has been PUBLICLY feuding for 25 years over ownership of a crappy band name".

In summary, please move on with your lives and encourage other members/friends to do so. The rest of us who don't care will keep this a nice, bland article similar to what we have now. - SimonLyall (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Discography

I've made an attempt at a discography, using information from the Loveys Satellite Spies website, the Sutherland Satellite Spies webiste, Discogs and iTunes. In order to acknowledge the splintered history, I've marked the different line-ups. Robyn2000 (talk) 21:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Dispute redux

I have archived a great deal of the content from this page, as this issue still seems to be disputed and wading through the arguments is a waste of everyone's time.

One of the parties in the dispute has requested again that the entire article be deleted (via OTRS ticket 2012072710002564). I declined the request, and am not going to re-nominate it for AfD due to the clear consensus at the last AfD that this squabble is an invalid reason for deletion. I have tried to improve the sourcing a little bit, although truly reliable sources seem to be a little scarce (at least from what can be found online). I found several newspaper articles mentioning the band via EBSCOhost, ProQuest, and InfoTrac, but none of the articles touch on the facts or dispute as mentioned in the second paragraph. Part of the issue is that very few of these research databases go back to the 80's.

I am leaving the article semi-protected for now, but adding it to my watchlist, and if an edit war starts up again, I am quite prepared to fully protect the article, indefinitely. —Darkwind (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)